Somehow I found the 600 believable. The numbers are probably exagerated anyway in this ministry that "has no members so that nobody can get kicked out" (vpw).
Just letters standing for the Foundational Class on the Way of Abundance and Power (FNC), or Foundational Class. It is videotaped so no longer taught live, by 3 teachers, and is basically the same as the Martin@le class, minus a couple things.
Sunesis, I think Revelation only mentions the tree of life which many theologians believe is Christ himself.
The sexualizing of the original sin, as I said in an earlier post, is not new at all, it was already being pondered upon whenever they were writing the Mishnah tractates and the Talmudic literature. Because apparently, the Jewish rabbi's concluded the same as a lot of folks have concluded that there wasn't much around to sin with, so a sin involving sex seems to be the obvious choice in the matter.
I do not think that people are "projecting" their fantasies onto the text, what would be the point? Especially, if you've ever considered any scholastic efforts. But as I also mentioned, another thought that I had pondered on, was just exactly that, that the "eating" was really the digestion of the Word and both trees, namely, one was Christ, probably in his pre-incarnate body and the other was the dvl. They merely chose the wrong words to digest and assimilate into their minds. It's nice to hear that other theologians also think that the tree of life is Christ as well.
Caveman, I believe healing can occur as a miracle, but also believe that God gives talents and abilities to doctors, nurses, and pharmacists to help in healing.
Bride, I too have thought the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was Christ, or a type of Christ. There was a choice to be made. Interestingly, that tree is never mentioned again.
I looked it up. In Rev. there is the Tree of Life, and the Living Waters - I knew there were two. Living Waters for all to drink of.
I find it interesting that it was the woman who first ate of the tree in the Garden.
Now, in Revelation, it is the woman, the Bride, who invites all to freely come, eat.
Caveman, I believe healing can occur as a miracle, but also believe that God gives talents and abilities to doctors, nurses, and pharmacists to help in healing.
I got nothing against doctors, in fact, I remember the phrase "Whatever it takes to believe" from long ago. The problem is not with the doctors. The problem is with the church, because it shouldn't take going to the doctor to believe when you are a son of God.
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Somehow we got caught up in the greater works, and forgot about the same works.
What it all boils down to is that Wierwille claimed you could change things in the physical world, good and bad, by what you were thinking.(Or, as he called it, "believing".)
According to VPW, it was a "law" that worked for "saint and sinner alike".
Just tell God those drapes have to be red and let your believing do the rest.
I'm pretty sure most people here are familiar with the made up example of the little boy who was "killed by the fear in his mother's heart". What a cruel charge that would be to lay at the feet of a grieving mother.
Wierwille got this stuff from his contemporaries. It was quite popular "back in the day".
Here's a Wiki link to Norman Vincent Peale, who authored The Power Of Positive Thinking. Peale, incidentally, was from a small town about an hour's drive from New Knoxville.
People have died trying to "believe" for safety. (I heartily recommend reading the *LEAD Accident* thread for further insight on this matter.) People have died trying to "believe" their way to health when, in fact, they might well have been served best by medical practitioners. People have needlessly condemned themselves and each other because they failed to "believe" for positive results or because their negative thoughts caused negative results in the physical world.
If TWI still holds this as one of their core tenets, I would advise people to avoid them like the plague.
Bride, I too have thought the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was Christ, or a type of Christ. There was a choice to be made. Interestingly, that tree is never mentioned again.
I looked it up. In Rev. there is the Tree of Life, and the Living Waters - I knew there were two. Living Waters for all to drink of.
I find it interesting that it was the woman who first ate of the tree in the Garden.
Now, in Revelation, it is the woman, the Bride, who invites all to freely come, eat.
Pretty neat.
Here's another aspect that I have thought of too, and that is the promise of a Savior comes to the couple by God when the "blame" is rolling down hill in Gen 3, and God
states that it will be the "seed of the woman", which of course, it's the male that bears the actual physical seed. Since Adam was the first, we can safely conclude that God
had informed Adam that this seed was not to be wasted, etc. If he did partake as even some ancient Jewish theologians were surmising the different possibilties of what happened on that fateful day. Since Adam "knew", the transgression was on him, but only "sin" was on Eve, probably since Adam failed to "talk with his wife". Clearly, that sin still exists today, Gentleman!
You say Sunesis: Bride, I too have thought the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was Christ, or a type of Christ. Are you really meaning to say, that Christ was a type of the Tree of Life? Because that's what I was saying and I think since the Bible contains a whole lot of double prophecies etc., it is highly likely that Christ was the TRUE TREE OF LIFE, while the man's member was an earthly tree of life, since it is obviously the organ whereby seed is emitted and children come forth.
Also, as I said before in a previous post, Cain was the first to commit physical murder, i.e. abel (here is a neat-o-rific thingy) Abel in Hebrew is really: "El-Hebel" which means empty, void, nothingness. What did his parents just lose? They lost God! And so they named their son, "Empty of God." Is that wild, or what? Plus, the real first murder came with Adam and Eve, when the dvl tempted them and said that they "would be like gods", what does a god decide? What does God have as HIS perogative? Life and Death is at HIS disposal? So when they partook of the seed (human beings in seed form)(if they did) they became like gods having that choice. So, I guess, if they did, and the text doesn't really say, we are speculating, cannibalism was really the first sin, or murder, at least in the physical. While in the spiritual, it was rebellion against God and trying to sit in HIS Throne.
As far as revelation....yes....eating from the TRUE TREE OF LIFE, the LORD JESUS CHRIST. I just thought of this.....if they did eat the flesh of their children in seed form....what did the Lord Jesus Christ command them in the Gospel? You must eat MY flesh and drink MY blood. Then the original sin is reversed out, by eating from the TRUE TREE OF LIFE.
I hope this is not too radical at 5:30 a.m. :blink:
Again, I would never teach this as doctrine in a church, there'd be too many heart attacks and epileptic seizures happening all at once.
Not too radical Bride! That's awesome re: the flesh and blood. Lots of things to think about. Thank you.
I have also thought, the whole Garden of Eden was a type, a shadow on earth, of the true heaven's temple which we can't see.
I've thought that Eden is set up, was a pattern of the heavenly Temple. We see the temple motif all over the bible.
I've often thought the tree of life was the innermost "holy of holies" of the Temple. When they were thrown out, they were thrown out into the outer courtyard, never allowed to enter the Holy place again until God had the Jewish people make the temple.
I have often thought the Tree of Life represented Christ, whom we are to "take, eat" of now. The tree had medicinal purposes. It would have kept them alive forever as they ate of it.
Then, Christ comes, and now tells them to take, eat, of him. He is Emmanuel - God with us, He is God tabernacled in the flesh dwelling among men.
He now offers at the last supper, the tree - Himself, take, eat.
I believe Holy Communion, if properly taught today, is also medicinal. We are partaking in life.
Not too radical Bride! That's awesome re: the flesh and blood. Lots of things to think about. Thank you.
I have also thought, the whole Garden of Eden was a type, a shadow on earth, of the true heaven's temple which we can't see.
I've thought that Eden is set up, was a pattern of the heavenly Temple. We see the temple motif all over the bible.
I've often thought the tree of life was the innermost "holy of holies" of the Temple. When they were thrown out, they were thrown out into the outer courtyard, never allowed to enter the Holy place again until God had the Jewish people make the temple.
I have often thought the Tree of Life represented Christ, whom we are to "take, eat" of now. The tree had medicinal purposes. It would have kept them alive forever as they ate of it.
Then, Christ comes, and now tells them to take, eat, of him. He is Emmanuel - God with us, He is God tabernacled in the flesh dwelling among men.
He now offers at the last supper, the tree - Himself, take, eat.
I believe Holy Communion, if properly taught today, is also medicinal. We are partaking in life.
Communion is medicinal and that is why Paul said in Corinthians that "many are weak and sick among you and many sleep because they had not properly discerned the body of the Lord." Are we literally to consume the flesh and blood of Christ? Obviously not, for I do not believe in transubstantiation. But yet the images are there, I think, for us to learn from. It's also possible that the Eden in the green was a temporary set up to see which tree of life that they would choose and that had they chosen Christ in that moment of decision, the heavenly Eden would have descended or just appeared and then they would have been eternal. But praise the Lord Jesus that HE was willing to die for us and to shed his blood so that we may now have eternal life. Even if we never really know exactly what happened, I can see another image of God tabernacling with HIS people; and as Abel was really named: "empty of God" then because of Christ being in us and HE being Emmanuel, "God with us" it is in direct opposition to Abel.
Another thing that I have pondered on is this: Is Revelation really for the future or is it right now? It was written to the then church and apparently they understood the imagery without a hitch. Because if the Christ is the true tree of life and the river of life is flowing out, which would be linked to the Holy Spirit, then we have received all these things through the cross of Christ and Pentecost. Anyway, just more thoughts.
I just looked up "Abel" on Blue Letter Bible and it gave the definitions of the name Abel as "breath" or "vapor" based on Strong's. What source gives it as "empty"?
I've read many excellent books on Revelation. It was written after the persecutions of Nero. I believe it is written to the Jewish assemblies living under the Beast. The church is gone, man's day is over, God now deals with Israel and the gentiles. I recommend Bullinger's Book, Commentary on Revelation. He shows, how what is written to each assembly is right there in the OT, its application for them then, and their reward if they overcome.
Christ has already overcome for us, and in Rev., the epistles to the assemblies, they must overcome. I also know many apply it to the Christian church. There's too much OT, Jewish imagery for it to be to the Christian assemblies.
If you read the epistles to the assemblies in Rev., with no commentary, as written to those living under the rule of the Beast, its chilling. Too much in there has not happened. But, this book will continue to be debated, there are many differing views on it.
I just looked up "Abel" on Blue Letter Bible and it gave the definitions of the name Abel as "breath" or "vapor" based on Strong's. What source gives it as "empty"?
My Hebrew lexicon
and yes, it also shows breath or vapor as well...which is empty, nothingness...which is why the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY likens our lives to it as well.
What you do not see in the English bible is the hyphenated word attached as a prefix to Abel...his real name is "El-Abel" or God Empty and since English
puts its adjectives before the noun....Empty of God.
I've read many excellent books on Revelation. It was written after the persecutions of Nero. I believe it is written to the Jewish assemblies living under the Beast. The church is gone, man's day is over, God now deals with Israel and the gentiles. I recommend Bullinger's Book, Commentary on Revelation. He shows, how what is written to each assembly is right there in the OT, its application for them then, and their reward if they overcome.
Christ has already overcome for us, and in Rev., the epistles to the assemblies, they must overcome. I also know many apply it to the Christian church. There's too much OT, Jewish imagery for it to be to the Christian assemblies.
If you read the epistles to the assemblies in Rev., with no commentary, as written to those living under the rule of the Beast, its chilling. Too much in there has not happened. But, this book will continue to be debated, there are many differing views on it.
Yes, you're right on one thing, the book of Revelation will remain hotly debated depending on which church you attend. I see that there is a debate amongst theologians on the dating as well; from Nero's time to Domitian's reign in 95. As far as too much OT Jewish imagery, you have to remember whether it was written in the 60's or the 90's, a vast proportion of the church was Jewish so it would fit right in, besides they were very familiar with apocalyptic literature. Whereas, we have not been raised with such literary genres, except perhaps the light treatment one may find in the fairy tales. So your point on that issue does not follow, because the church was Jewish Christian. I have flirted with a lot of different views, not content to just (as of yet) nail one down, but rather finding contentment in being a Pan-Millennialist.
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jen-o
rhino,
sounds like they might have more chiefs than indians, eh?
peace,
jen-o
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Caveman
Somehow I found the 600 believable. The numbers are probably exagerated anyway in this ministry that "has no members so that nobody can get kicked out" (vpw).
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chockfull
Just letters standing for the Foundational Class on the Way of Abundance and Power (FNC), or Foundational Class. It is videotaped so no longer taught live, by 3 teachers, and is basically the same as the Martin@le class, minus a couple things.
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Sunesis
Could be Thomas, I don't have my Bible here. I'll check later today. I do know, one of them's there, dangit! :)
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Caveman
Where's the power?
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rhino
Foundatio Nal Class ? What does the "N" stand for?
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Proably lies with Rosie and Donna. LOL!
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chockfull
I really have no idea. It's just the abbreviation they use on blue forms when somebody registers.
Maybe its a secret code that unlocks the hidden 'extra special' Genesis 3 interpretations in the class. All done in interpretive dance.
In the Energizer 'D' batteries. Where else?
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rhino
Maybe it is
"for next class" ... or ... "found new chump"
Interpretive dance ... hmm ... will they do the vp version and the loy version of Gen 3?
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brideofjc
The sexualizing of the original sin, as I said in an earlier post, is not new at all, it was already being pondered upon whenever they were writing the Mishnah tractates and the Talmudic literature. Because apparently, the Jewish rabbi's concluded the same as a lot of folks have concluded that there wasn't much around to sin with, so a sin involving sex seems to be the obvious choice in the matter.
I do not think that people are "projecting" their fantasies onto the text, what would be the point? Especially, if you've ever considered any scholastic efforts. But as I also mentioned, another thought that I had pondered on, was just exactly that, that the "eating" was really the digestion of the Word and both trees, namely, one was Christ, probably in his pre-incarnate body and the other was the dvl. They merely chose the wrong words to digest and assimilate into their minds. It's nice to hear that other theologians also think that the tree of life is Christ as well.
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Caveman
We need some o' dem batteries in a lot o' churches. People talk about power, but when someone breaks a leg they send him to the doctor.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Caveman, I believe healing can occur as a miracle, but also believe that God gives talents and abilities to doctors, nurses, and pharmacists to help in healing.
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brideofjc
Is it just a coincidence or what?
Rosie and Donna?
Ros e O'Donn ll?
Is it the name?
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Sunesis
Bride, I too have thought the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was Christ, or a type of Christ. There was a choice to be made. Interestingly, that tree is never mentioned again.
I looked it up. In Rev. there is the Tree of Life, and the Living Waters - I knew there were two. Living Waters for all to drink of.
I find it interesting that it was the woman who first ate of the tree in the Garden.
Now, in Revelation, it is the woman, the Bride, who invites all to freely come, eat.
Pretty neat.
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Tom Strange
What if the original sin was something as simple as "they disobeyed God"?
There doesn't always have to be some hidden meaning... (IIRC that's a big function of TWI's hook, i.e. "we've got it all figured out")
He (God) told them don't eat it, don't touch it... they couldn't resist...
...makes "an apple a day keeps the doctor away" kind of ironic doesn't it?
ooh! ...and taking apples to give to teachers is a long standing tradition!
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Caveman
I got nothing against doctors, in fact, I remember the phrase "Whatever it takes to believe" from long ago. The problem is not with the doctors. The problem is with the church, because it shouldn't take going to the doctor to believe when you are a son of God.
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Somehow we got caught up in the greater works, and forgot about the same works.
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waysider
What it all boils down to is that Wierwille claimed you could change things in the physical world, good and bad, by what you were thinking.(Or, as he called it, "believing".)
According to VPW, it was a "law" that worked for "saint and sinner alike".
Just tell God those drapes have to be red and let your believing do the rest.
I'm pretty sure most people here are familiar with the made up example of the little boy who was "killed by the fear in his mother's heart". What a cruel charge that would be to lay at the feet of a grieving mother.
Wierwille got this stuff from his contemporaries. It was quite popular "back in the day".
Here's a Wiki link to Norman Vincent Peale, who authored The Power Of Positive Thinking. Peale, incidentally, was from a small town about an hour's drive from New Knoxville.
Do a comparison to what was taught in The Way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Vincent_Peale
It's an incredibly dangerous doctrine to rely on.
People have died trying to "believe" for safety. (I heartily recommend reading the *LEAD Accident* thread for further insight on this matter.) People have died trying to "believe" their way to health when, in fact, they might well have been served best by medical practitioners. People have needlessly condemned themselves and each other because they failed to "believe" for positive results or because their negative thoughts caused negative results in the physical world.
If TWI still holds this as one of their core tenets, I would advise people to avoid them like the plague.
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brideofjc
Here's another aspect that I have thought of too, and that is the promise of a Savior comes to the couple by God when the "blame" is rolling down hill in Gen 3, and God
states that it will be the "seed of the woman", which of course, it's the male that bears the actual physical seed. Since Adam was the first, we can safely conclude that God
had informed Adam that this seed was not to be wasted, etc. If he did partake as even some ancient Jewish theologians were surmising the different possibilties of what happened on that fateful day. Since Adam "knew", the transgression was on him, but only "sin" was on Eve, probably since Adam failed to "talk with his wife". Clearly, that sin still exists today, Gentleman!
You say Sunesis: Bride, I too have thought the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was Christ, or a type of Christ. Are you really meaning to say, that Christ was a type of the Tree of Life? Because that's what I was saying and I think since the Bible contains a whole lot of double prophecies etc., it is highly likely that Christ was the TRUE TREE OF LIFE, while the man's member was an earthly tree of life, since it is obviously the organ whereby seed is emitted and children come forth.
Also, as I said before in a previous post, Cain was the first to commit physical murder, i.e. abel (here is a neat-o-rific thingy) Abel in Hebrew is really: "El-Hebel" which means empty, void, nothingness. What did his parents just lose? They lost God! And so they named their son, "Empty of God." Is that wild, or what? Plus, the real first murder came with Adam and Eve, when the dvl tempted them and said that they "would be like gods", what does a god decide? What does God have as HIS perogative? Life and Death is at HIS disposal? So when they partook of the seed (human beings in seed form)(if they did) they became like gods having that choice. So, I guess, if they did, and the text doesn't really say, we are speculating, cannibalism was really the first sin, or murder, at least in the physical. While in the spiritual, it was rebellion against God and trying to sit in HIS Throne.
As far as revelation....yes....eating from the TRUE TREE OF LIFE, the LORD JESUS CHRIST. I just thought of this.....if they did eat the flesh of their children in seed form....what did the Lord Jesus Christ command them in the Gospel? You must eat MY flesh and drink MY blood. Then the original sin is reversed out, by eating from the TRUE TREE OF LIFE.
I hope this is not too radical at 5:30 a.m. :blink:
Again, I would never teach this as doctrine in a church, there'd be too many heart attacks and epileptic seizures happening all at once.
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Sunesis
Not too radical Bride! That's awesome re: the flesh and blood. Lots of things to think about. Thank you.
I have also thought, the whole Garden of Eden was a type, a shadow on earth, of the true heaven's temple which we can't see.
I've thought that Eden is set up, was a pattern of the heavenly Temple. We see the temple motif all over the bible.
I've often thought the tree of life was the innermost "holy of holies" of the Temple. When they were thrown out, they were thrown out into the outer courtyard, never allowed to enter the Holy place again until God had the Jewish people make the temple.
I have often thought the Tree of Life represented Christ, whom we are to "take, eat" of now. The tree had medicinal purposes. It would have kept them alive forever as they ate of it.
Then, Christ comes, and now tells them to take, eat, of him. He is Emmanuel - God with us, He is God tabernacled in the flesh dwelling among men.
He now offers at the last supper, the tree - Himself, take, eat.
I believe Holy Communion, if properly taught today, is also medicinal. We are partaking in life.
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brideofjc
Communion is medicinal and that is why Paul said in Corinthians that "many are weak and sick among you and many sleep because they had not properly discerned the body of the Lord." Are we literally to consume the flesh and blood of Christ? Obviously not, for I do not believe in transubstantiation. But yet the images are there, I think, for us to learn from. It's also possible that the Eden in the green was a temporary set up to see which tree of life that they would choose and that had they chosen Christ in that moment of decision, the heavenly Eden would have descended or just appeared and then they would have been eternal. But praise the Lord Jesus that HE was willing to die for us and to shed his blood so that we may now have eternal life. Even if we never really know exactly what happened, I can see another image of God tabernacling with HIS people; and as Abel was really named: "empty of God" then because of Christ being in us and HE being Emmanuel, "God with us" it is in direct opposition to Abel.
Another thing that I have pondered on is this: Is Revelation really for the future or is it right now? It was written to the then church and apparently they understood the imagery without a hitch. Because if the Christ is the true tree of life and the river of life is flowing out, which would be linked to the Holy Spirit, then we have received all these things through the cross of Christ and Pentecost. Anyway, just more thoughts.
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Oakspear
I just looked up "Abel" on Blue Letter Bible and it gave the definitions of the name Abel as "breath" or "vapor" based on Strong's. What source gives it as "empty"?
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Sunesis
I've read many excellent books on Revelation. It was written after the persecutions of Nero. I believe it is written to the Jewish assemblies living under the Beast. The church is gone, man's day is over, God now deals with Israel and the gentiles. I recommend Bullinger's Book, Commentary on Revelation. He shows, how what is written to each assembly is right there in the OT, its application for them then, and their reward if they overcome.
Christ has already overcome for us, and in Rev., the epistles to the assemblies, they must overcome. I also know many apply it to the Christian church. There's too much OT, Jewish imagery for it to be to the Christian assemblies.
If you read the epistles to the assemblies in Rev., with no commentary, as written to those living under the rule of the Beast, its chilling. Too much in there has not happened. But, this book will continue to be debated, there are many differing views on it.
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brideofjc
My Hebrew lexicon
and yes, it also shows breath or vapor as well...which is empty, nothingness...which is why the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY likens our lives to it as well.
What you do not see in the English bible is the hyphenated word attached as a prefix to Abel...his real name is "El-Abel" or God Empty and since English
puts its adjectives before the noun....Empty of God.
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brideofjc
Yes, you're right on one thing, the book of Revelation will remain hotly debated depending on which church you attend. I see that there is a debate amongst theologians on the dating as well; from Nero's time to Domitian's reign in 95. As far as too much OT Jewish imagery, you have to remember whether it was written in the 60's or the 90's, a vast proportion of the church was Jewish so it would fit right in, besides they were very familiar with apocalyptic literature. Whereas, we have not been raised with such literary genres, except perhaps the light treatment one may find in the fairy tales. So your point on that issue does not follow, because the church was Jewish Christian. I have flirted with a lot of different views, not content to just (as of yet) nail one down, but rather finding contentment in being a Pan-Millennialist.
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