There are so many forms of Christianity, that it is really hard to see what impact "it" had through history.
We have that TWI background, and many probably still think somewhat along those lines. But if Paul was right, then everybody had mostly left the faith before his death. If Paul is wrong, then how much of the Bible ("by" Paul for example) needs to be tossed out?
Even supposing Jesus Christ was THE savior, it seems quite probable Christianity did not continue unchanged except in name beyond maybe 300 AD. So all this chatter about what Christianity caused or accomplished is almost meaningless.
Of course for the true believer, Christ is the head, and somehow everything has been loosely held together despite various sects, and despite every individual within the sect being unique. Within every group is the circle of corruption it seems ... and power corrupts.
Despite some well meaning attempts by a few scholars to hold some texts together ... it seems Christianity became only loosely united political bodies, for most intents and purposes. Since they operate within states or countries, religion has held a unique and maybe constructive position through the ages.
I don't know of any of those signs, miracles and wonders people say pop up all the time in the third world countries. Is God camera shy? It seems by now we could have some video of an honest to God miracle ... limbs made whole, seas parted, ... it does seem some good things happen miraculously at times ... but it always seems subtle.
Life is pretty grand, so there may well be a God, it is beyond me to prove that. But our own reasoning is the way to figure things out. Yet the Bible says "lean not to thine own understanding". But I don't understand that.
It seems religion has been good for the USA. There are plenty of problems, but it seems to work better than government bureaucracy in performing charitable services. It offers a social structure loosely held by a common belief. I'm guessing most Christians do not even believe Christ really rose from the dead.
It may be there is room in right church for the atheist ... or maybe in some other organized religion or neighborhood watch or school PTA. It is probably not necessary to feel exiled by beliefs that are different than basic Bible dogma. Staying socially attached seems most important ... and preferably good, honest, loyal, charitable ...
With those constructs strong, it will be easier to root out the evil ... maybe ... though it seems to have a pretty strong foothold in government and law offices. I'm thinking it would be better for Christians to take a stronger stand on some things, instead of waiting for Christ to fix it when he returns. On the other hand, one can only do so much, so there is comfort in singing about a more perfect day.
How did the literate people of this world gain exclusive rights to God?
What about all those people who went before us and those who walk amongst us who don't know the first thing about reading and writing?
Are they just S.O.L.?
Yeah, I know, in TWI we were told that it was our mission in life to seek those people out by door-to-door witnessing and WOW programs and stringing chairs in perfectly symmetrical formation so they could have a chance to hear "The Word" with no distractions that could lessen their chances of having whatever the heck it was that we had. What DID we have, anyway?
Millions and millions of people walking the Earth totally deprived of every knowing anything about God because they can't read or write. And the ones who can read and write might still be screwed if they aren't exposed to the "one true Word" that only comes via the rigors of academia. Yep, if they happen to choose the RV over the KJV, they might as well just pack their steamer trunks and wait for the first ship leaving port.
When you witness a baby being born or comfort someone as they shed their mortal coil, some kind of unexplainable connection happens inside you. It transcends mere words and Bible verses. Maybe it's God. Then again, maybe it isn't. I don't really know.
Does anybody for certain? Whatever it is, though, it's big---- really, really big.
I don't know of any of those signs, miracles and wonders people say pop up all the time in the third world countries. Is God camera shy? It seems by now we could have some video of an honest to God miracle ... limbs made whole, seas parted, ... it does seem some good things happen miraculously at times ... but it always seems subtle.
My arm being healed was not subtle, however, it didn't happen at the time it was prayed for as one would expect from what one reads in the Bible. It happened over night. Then again, I'm the only one who knows it really happened, and I can't prove it to anyone, yet I know it really happened, and my mind cannot be changed.
It seems that there are many things that we don't understand. We were taught in twi that believing is the soul source of receiving. I believe that believing is necessary, but I believe that there are other factors.
I'm sorry I don't have the video.
It may be there is room in right church for the atheist
How did the literate people of this world gain exclusive rights to God?
What about all those people who went before us and those who walk amongst us who don't know the first thing about reading and writing?
Are they just S.O.L.?
If the Bible is correct then God is merciful. I don't know what all that entails. Some believe that Christ died for all of man kind so all are saved already. I am not willing to bet my eternity on that, nor anyone elses.
We were taught in twi that believing is the soul source of receiving. I believe that believing is necessary, but I believe that there are other factors.
"Believing" is the number one most dangerous doctrine ever taught by TWI.
If you don't know anyone who was harmed (or worse) trying to follow it, you either weren't around very long or have perhaps misunderstood the ramifications.. That's a criticism of the "law" of believing, not of you personally. It is not Biblical. All the usual scriptures we were taught to "prove" it were handled in a deceiving manner to twist and contort their meanings. I would suggest perusing some of the volumes of material at the cafe that deal with this subject. You could start right there on the home page if you aren't up to doing a search.
Though there are conservative atheists, a conservative church would have no room for atheists. We seem to have confused the word conservative with conservative church. The two are not the same.
I believe I will look into what is offered on the subject of believing here. The subject is of interest to me.
Though there are conservative atheists, a conservative church would have no room for atheists. We seem to have confused the word conservative with conservative church. The two are not the same.
True caveman ... but much of "Christianity" has left any real adherence to the Bible become are mostly social structures.
Were you in a cave over 6000 years ago ... or do you think Adam and Eve lived in a cave? :)
My arm being healed was not subtle, however, it didn't happen at the time it was prayed for as one would expect from what one reads in the Bible. It happened over night. Then again, I'm the only one who knows it really happened, and I can't prove it to anyone, yet I know it really happened, and my mind cannot be changed.
I, even though I am not a believer in the biblical god, rejoice that your arm was healed. Whether it was the result of your god, oxygenated water (inside joke - old thread...sorry ) or beet juice, I'm just happy your arm works now! I wouldn't think of asking you to prove anything...but I still don't believe in your Jesus! (sorry again...PFAL reference )
In Brazil, India, China and the more remote regions of Africa and Mexico they are seeing the signs miracles and wonders that are promised to us in the Bible, but not here. We are too smart to believe in that kind of stuff.
There is, though, evidence outside the book, if you would be willing to look for it. Outside of spending the $2800 to hook up with Randy Clark and going on one of his mission trips, you could just study the historians; people like Josephus. These are people who did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, yet confirm the miracles that the Apostles did.
I can't speak to the miracles in other countries because I've never been present to see them, neither can I speak to your broken arm being healed.
As far as people being to smart to believe in that kind of stuff, well boy howdy! You betcha! I'd love to be accused of being to smart to believe in something I can't prove or substantiate.
As far as Josephus goes I find it hard to believe he's reliable, for the following reasons:
He was born 37 CE which is some 4 - 7 years after Jesus and the pentecostal experience, so he didn't live through those times. His "Antiquities of the Jews" wasn't finished until 93 CE which is contemporary with Paul and other Apostles but try and find Paul in Josephus's writings. Sure he mentions James the brother of Jesus who is called the Christ, but what Josephus mentions about Jesus is hearsay, it should be noted that the oldest texts of Josephus's writings are from the 11th century. There is some debate about the section mentioning Jesus being forged in the 4th century by Bishop Eusebius. Even if the mention of Jesus is not forged I would consider the fact that Josephus was commissioned by Flavius (Vespasian) Caesar to write history for him.
Aside from Josephus and his questionable reliability, there are no Roman or Jewish historians who were born earlier then 37 CE who wrote anything about Jesus or Paul. This is not a good case for Christianity.
I'm not Christian, and I volunteer with an interfaith group--no one asks for my profession of faith, they are glad for willing hands. Many mainstream churches respect your privacy, but I have no knowledge of the fundamentalist churches.
As far as the 'must be a Christian' evangelism...great promises that rarely come to pass( at least only for the very few, or for people far far awaay that I have no way to really know, or for those that it happened to but can't be replicated in someone else' life) and threats of eternal punishment (fear motivation)--not enough for me now.
Being a parent, I think pie in the sky unattainable promises(for most people) or threats of horrid punishment are both out of line--and why would a truly wise diety use such tactics? Makes no sense to me. Seem to be very obvious, unsophisticated sale tactics.
--and why would a truly wise deity use such tactics? Makes no sense to me. Seem to be very obvious, unsophisticated sale tactics.
Ahhh but you see, that is where arguments like "You just gotta have faith" and "Its one of those spur-chal' things that you just cannot understand with your mind" comes into play.
Makes things quite, uuhhmm, convenient, ... doncha think? ;)
I don't talk about it much. It was in 1977. God spoke to me audibly. He didn't tell me to start a cult. It was reproof. I was having lustful thoughts about a girl who I went to high school with, and the Lord spoke to me in a very stern voice, four short words; "I DON'T TEMPT YOU."
caveman, i have had a very similar experience (a couple of them actually)...
the first time was the night of my grandfather's funeral, when i awoke to find 2 spirit beings in the room...
one of them, a familar spirit, impersonating my grandfather...
(this was years before my involvement with twi)
i also heard words of reproof...
5 short words... (from my experience, there is no added "fluff" when God speaks)
at the time, i was considering having a chat with the "grandfather" being who was slowly descending the staircase...
and the words came out of nowhere...
"what if it's a counterfeit?"
the words cut thru my thoughts and penetrated my soul...
and although they were only 5 short words, there was greater meaning attached to them...
and i changed my course of direction 180 degrees...
caveman, i have had a very similar experience (a couple of them actually)...
the first time was the night of my grandfather's funeral, when i awoke to find 2 spirit beings in the room...
one of them, a familar spirit, impersonating my grandfather...
(this was years before my involvement with twi)
i also heard words of reproof...
5 short words... (from my experience, there is no added "fluff" when God speaks)
at the time, i was considering having a chat with the "grandfather" being who was slowly descending the staircase...
and the words came out of nowhere...
"what if it's a counterfeit?"
the words cut thru my thoughts and penetrated my soul...
and although they were only 5 short words, there was greater meaning attached to them...
and i changed my course of direction 180 degrees...
peace,
jen-o
..."a familar spirit"? I know it's 2 am your time, but maybe you were just watching a re-run of one of those creature feature 1930's films? Most of those guys crawling the stairways are old men anyway!
However, "when i awoke to find TWO spirit beings in the room..", now this is a little more serious! What did this one have to say?
This may have potential for a cult script! :)
"No added fluff when God speaks...." Now that's a good one! Does that mean God has a limited vocabulary, or he's just short of time in HIS delivery?
Btw. (Do you work/live around LA somewhere?)
Possibly two too many oysters that night jen-o :biglaugh:
..."a familar spirit"? I know it's 2 am your time, but maybe you were just watching a re-run of one of those creature feature 1930's films? Most of those guys crawling the stairways are old men anyway!
However, "when i awoke to find TWO spirit beings in the room..", now this is a little more serious! What did this one have to say?
This may have potential for a cult script!
"No added fluff when God speaks...." Now that's a good one! Does that mean God has a limited vocabulary, or he's just short of time in HIS delivery?
Btw. (Do you work/live around LA somewhere?)
Possibly two too many oysters that night jen-o
Le Bump
monsieur le bump,
you sound like you don't believe me...
why would i lie about something like this??
no, i hadn't watched a 1930s creature feature...
nor had i been drinking...
i didn't have any bad food...
i wasn't on drugs...
etc. etc. etc.
my focus was on comforting my grandmother...
and i slept at her house that night...
the day had been filled with funeral type stuff...
again, why would i lie about this??
btw, no, i don't live around LA... and i've never lived around LA...
I guess it comes as no surprise that I don't follow your line of reasoning.
Is cleaving to rational thought really just a stop along the way of one's suppsed "growth"?
And, if so, where does one's "growth" take them after that, to IRrational thought?
I guess...
hi Geo
no, im not surprised
im guessing its not for lack of smarts...but perhaps lack of interest
so no guarantee what i am about to write will help much...but i'll try
maybe someone else will get something out of my response to you
...
yeah, it does seem just a stop "along the way"
rational is characterized by capitalistic democracy, meritocracy, materialism, science, physics, etc... stuff that is off-limits to mythic fundamentalism
but like ive written...keep in mind that when we grow through a stage, we do well to take the best qualities of that stage with us.
subsequent worldviews do well to build on the gains of previous worldviews, and discard the limits
for example, how objective thought requires cooperation (peer-reviewed studies, etc)....and so retains the value of working as a group
...but no longer considers the group's shared myth as the superior mode of knowing (as in mythic fundamentalism)
in other words...moving beyond rational does not mean one is no longer rational...but that rational thought is no longer the primary mode of knowing stuff
...but we keep a nice shiny skeptic in our pocket
but if we grow beyond rational and completely discard rational thinking (for some reason)...there will be a "hole," or a "shadow," if you will...and our later stage will have a serious limp
of course, there is almost always some temporary form of rejecting the stage we just left...most simply because our new stage developed in response to some limitation of the previous...which is often a painful experience of loss
...
and i can imagine why "growth" would be a "supposed," geo
most people have not experienced much of it all in life
rational thought could have formed in us as individuals around 9-14 years old
and if we cleaved to mythic fundamentalism all the way into early and late adulthood...it seems a miracle that we grew beyond it at all
also...there is not much growth evident in mainstream society, either
but, of course, even rational thought is limited to the data we look at
...
beyond rational (but best if rational is included) is characterized by social democracy, free information, caring communities, universal human rights, journalism and dialogue
and like i mentioned about the "limp" above....i dont think its hard to see how much trouble is caused when and where rational thought is being rejected in these fields
this worldview is possible at about 15-21 years or so...though obviously, there is no guarantee we grow to here at this age
but rational is a bit too concerned with successes and accomplishments to have such universal values
...a bit too concerned with proving the truth of things before seeing any other kinds of values in them (such as goodness or beauty)
and rational tends to dismiss the interior dimension of life (not just talking about brain cells, either..but the subjective and inter-subjective arts)
and so any mode of knowing that comes from deeper interpersonal activity is likely to be dismissed as more of the same ole religion
...when, like rational, this stage is simply building yet again upon the power of cooperation
...
there are other stages beyond this, of course
involving things like integrating all the previous perspectives, consciousness, aging, dying, etc...
...and the redemptive values on the other side of failure, loss, etc...
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Oakspear
That's the answer, Jim Hensen could make a frog!
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Caveman
And your point?
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T-Bone
Who came first - Jim Hensen or the frog? And for that matter, who's on first?
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rhino
There are so many forms of Christianity, that it is really hard to see what impact "it" had through history.
We have that TWI background, and many probably still think somewhat along those lines. But if Paul was right, then everybody had mostly left the faith before his death. If Paul is wrong, then how much of the Bible ("by" Paul for example) needs to be tossed out?
Even supposing Jesus Christ was THE savior, it seems quite probable Christianity did not continue unchanged except in name beyond maybe 300 AD. So all this chatter about what Christianity caused or accomplished is almost meaningless.
Of course for the true believer, Christ is the head, and somehow everything has been loosely held together despite various sects, and despite every individual within the sect being unique. Within every group is the circle of corruption it seems ... and power corrupts.
Despite some well meaning attempts by a few scholars to hold some texts together ... it seems Christianity became only loosely united political bodies, for most intents and purposes. Since they operate within states or countries, religion has held a unique and maybe constructive position through the ages.
I don't know of any of those signs, miracles and wonders people say pop up all the time in the third world countries. Is God camera shy? It seems by now we could have some video of an honest to God miracle ... limbs made whole, seas parted, ... it does seem some good things happen miraculously at times ... but it always seems subtle.
Life is pretty grand, so there may well be a God, it is beyond me to prove that. But our own reasoning is the way to figure things out. Yet the Bible says "lean not to thine own understanding". But I don't understand that.
It seems religion has been good for the USA. There are plenty of problems, but it seems to work better than government bureaucracy in performing charitable services. It offers a social structure loosely held by a common belief. I'm guessing most Christians do not even believe Christ really rose from the dead.
It may be there is room in right church for the atheist ... or maybe in some other organized religion or neighborhood watch or school PTA. It is probably not necessary to feel exiled by beliefs that are different than basic Bible dogma. Staying socially attached seems most important ... and preferably good, honest, loyal, charitable ...
With those constructs strong, it will be easier to root out the evil ... maybe ... though it seems to have a pretty strong foothold in government and law offices. I'm thinking it would be better for Christians to take a stronger stand on some things, instead of waiting for Christ to fix it when he returns. On the other hand, one can only do so much, so there is comfort in singing about a more perfect day.
Did I say anything in all that?
Who's on third? I don't know.
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waysider
How did the literate people of this world gain exclusive rights to God?
What about all those people who went before us and those who walk amongst us who don't know the first thing about reading and writing?
Are they just S.O.L.?
Yeah, I know, in TWI we were told that it was our mission in life to seek those people out by door-to-door witnessing and WOW programs and stringing chairs in perfectly symmetrical formation so they could have a chance to hear "The Word" with no distractions that could lessen their chances of having whatever the heck it was that we had. What DID we have, anyway?
Millions and millions of people walking the Earth totally deprived of every knowing anything about God because they can't read or write. And the ones who can read and write might still be screwed if they aren't exposed to the "one true Word" that only comes via the rigors of academia. Yep, if they happen to choose the RV over the KJV, they might as well just pack their steamer trunks and wait for the first ship leaving port.
When you witness a baby being born or comfort someone as they shed their mortal coil, some kind of unexplainable connection happens inside you. It transcends mere words and Bible verses. Maybe it's God. Then again, maybe it isn't. I don't really know.
Does anybody for certain? Whatever it is, though, it's big---- really, really big.
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Caveman
That's right.
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Caveman
My arm being healed was not subtle, however, it didn't happen at the time it was prayed for as one would expect from what one reads in the Bible. It happened over night. Then again, I'm the only one who knows it really happened, and I can't prove it to anyone, yet I know it really happened, and my mind cannot be changed.
It seems that there are many things that we don't understand. We were taught in twi that believing is the soul source of receiving. I believe that believing is necessary, but I believe that there are other factors.
I'm sorry I don't have the video.
No, that would be the left church.
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Caveman
If the Bible is correct then God is merciful. I don't know what all that entails. Some believe that Christ died for all of man kind so all are saved already. I am not willing to bet my eternity on that, nor anyone elses.
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waysider
"Believing" is the number one most dangerous doctrine ever taught by TWI.
If you don't know anyone who was harmed (or worse) trying to follow it, you either weren't around very long or have perhaps misunderstood the ramifications.. That's a criticism of the "law" of believing, not of you personally. It is not Biblical. All the usual scriptures we were taught to "prove" it were handled in a deceiving manner to twist and contort their meanings. I would suggest perusing some of the volumes of material at the cafe that deal with this subject. You could start right there on the home page if you aren't up to doing a search.
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GarthP2000
Straw man argument time, Caveman:
Really? Like being an atheist is a 'Left' thing? ... As tho' there are no right wing conservative atheists? :unsure:
Got the same kind of 'proof' for that? ... Y'know, similar to the 'proof' that your arm was miraculously healed?
<_<
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Caveman
Though there are conservative atheists, a conservative church would have no room for atheists. We seem to have confused the word conservative with conservative church. The two are not the same.
I believe I will look into what is offered on the subject of believing here. The subject is of interest to me.
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rhino
True caveman ... but much of "Christianity" has left any real adherence to the Bible become are mostly social structures.
Were you in a cave over 6000 years ago ... or do you think Adam and Eve lived in a cave? :)
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Oakspear
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waysider
'nother PFLAF reference
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Seth R.
I can't speak to the miracles in other countries because I've never been present to see them, neither can I speak to your broken arm being healed.
As far as people being to smart to believe in that kind of stuff, well boy howdy! You betcha! I'd love to be accused of being to smart to believe in something I can't prove or substantiate.
As far as Josephus goes I find it hard to believe he's reliable, for the following reasons:
He was born 37 CE which is some 4 - 7 years after Jesus and the pentecostal experience, so he didn't live through those times. His "Antiquities of the Jews" wasn't finished until 93 CE which is contemporary with Paul and other Apostles but try and find Paul in Josephus's writings. Sure he mentions James the brother of Jesus who is called the Christ, but what Josephus mentions about Jesus is hearsay, it should be noted that the oldest texts of Josephus's writings are from the 11th century. There is some debate about the section mentioning Jesus being forged in the 4th century by Bishop Eusebius. Even if the mention of Jesus is not forged I would consider the fact that Josephus was commissioned by Flavius (Vespasian) Caesar to write history for him.
Aside from Josephus and his questionable reliability, there are no Roman or Jewish historians who were born earlier then 37 CE who wrote anything about Jesus or Paul. This is not a good case for Christianity.
Seth
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Bramble
I'm not Christian, and I volunteer with an interfaith group--no one asks for my profession of faith, they are glad for willing hands. Many mainstream churches respect your privacy, but I have no knowledge of the fundamentalist churches.
As far as the 'must be a Christian' evangelism...great promises that rarely come to pass( at least only for the very few, or for people far far awaay that I have no way to really know, or for those that it happened to but can't be replicated in someone else' life) and threats of eternal punishment (fear motivation)--not enough for me now.
Being a parent, I think pie in the sky unattainable promises(for most people) or threats of horrid punishment are both out of line--and why would a truly wise diety use such tactics? Makes no sense to me. Seem to be very obvious, unsophisticated sale tactics.
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GarthP2000
Ahhh but you see, that is where arguments like "You just gotta have faith" and "Its one of those spur-chal' things that you just cannot understand with your mind" comes into play.
Makes things quite, uuhhmm, convenient, ... doncha think? ;)
<_<
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jen-o
the first time was the night of my grandfather's funeral, when i awoke to find 2 spirit beings in the room...
one of them, a familar spirit, impersonating my grandfather...
(this was years before my involvement with twi)
i also heard words of reproof...
5 short words... (from my experience, there is no added "fluff" when God speaks)
at the time, i was considering having a chat with the "grandfather" being who was slowly descending the staircase...
and the words came out of nowhere...
"what if it's a counterfeit?"
the words cut thru my thoughts and penetrated my soul...
and although they were only 5 short words, there was greater meaning attached to them...
and i changed my course of direction 180 degrees...
peace,
jen-o
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Bumpy
..."a familar spirit"? I know it's 2 am your time, but maybe you were just watching a re-run of one of those creature feature 1930's films? Most of those guys crawling the stairways are old men anyway!
However, "when i awoke to find TWO spirit beings in the room..", now this is a little more serious! What did this one have to say?
This may have potential for a cult script! :)
"No added fluff when God speaks...." Now that's a good one! Does that mean God has a limited vocabulary, or he's just short of time in HIS delivery?
Btw. (Do you work/live around LA somewhere?)
Possibly two too many oysters that night jen-o
:biglaugh:
Le Bump
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sirguessalot
of course i applaud you for embracing a rational worldview, Seth...
it certainly allows for objective re-interpretations of experiences that were once interpreted mythically and magically
and i feel it is worth mentioning...(i hope you find it worth following)
while rational thought is an improvement (and not a minor one)
it does have its own pitfalls and dualistic idealogies to work out
a kind of over-correction into gross reductionism and rejection of subjective (and inter-subjective) values, for example
which disintegrates into a very non-rational position of trying to dismiss/erase valid data
or a wholesale dismissal of the value and role of healthy mythic thought in history, and life
...often marked by a sour and sarcastic sense of "humor" when it comes to debunking myths
the "pre/trans fallacy" is another... where one is not able to distinquish between pre-rational with post-rational values
...and so lumping them all together simply because both are non-rational
others, too...
but without an awareness of these kinds of pitfalls
rational thought can cause as much, if not more suffering,
than mythic fundamentalism or magical thinking
as if rational is somehow some sort of pinnacle of human capacity
when it is merely a rung on a seeming infinite ladder
and too, rational language (or any level of language) can be adopted by magic (self-centered) worldviews
...as some can be firmly rational towards a narrow bandwidth of things...and quite un-rational towards a wide variety of others
but every worldview we transcend has structural elements that we need to carry forward
...or our going forward will include embedded shadows of what we left behind
so...we would do well to make sure we have a full experience of whatever stage we are moving through
before moving on
and...not that you are...but "don't get stuck at early rational thought for too long"...like so many
...just remember that there is plenty of space to keep moving
as radical as the leap from myth to rational
is the leap from rational to more pluralistic and social values and worldviews
"preparing to leap again" is an attitude we would do well to develop at any level
+ODD
edited to add this link to an older thread on worldviews
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jen-o
you sound like you don't believe me...
why would i lie about something like this??
no, i hadn't watched a 1930s creature feature...
nor had i been drinking...
i didn't have any bad food...
i wasn't on drugs...
etc. etc. etc.
my focus was on comforting my grandmother...
and i slept at her house that night...
the day had been filled with funeral type stuff...
again, why would i lie about this??
btw, no, i don't live around LA... and i've never lived around LA...
but i've been to LA once (okay twice)
peace,
jen-o
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George Aar
Sir G,
I guess it comes as no surprise that I don't follow your line of reasoning.
Is cleaving to rational thought really just a stop along the way of one's suppsed "growth"?
And, if so, where does one's "growth" take them after that, to IRrational thought?
I guess...
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Bumpy
I believe you honey...let's just say it was a busy night at grand mother's house.
Was she into oysters???
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sirguessalot
hi Geo
no, im not surprised
im guessing its not for lack of smarts...but perhaps lack of interest
so no guarantee what i am about to write will help much...but i'll try
maybe someone else will get something out of my response to you
...
yeah, it does seem just a stop "along the way"
rational is characterized by capitalistic democracy, meritocracy, materialism, science, physics, etc... stuff that is off-limits to mythic fundamentalism
but like ive written...keep in mind that when we grow through a stage, we do well to take the best qualities of that stage with us.
subsequent worldviews do well to build on the gains of previous worldviews, and discard the limits
for example, how objective thought requires cooperation (peer-reviewed studies, etc)....and so retains the value of working as a group
...but no longer considers the group's shared myth as the superior mode of knowing (as in mythic fundamentalism)
in other words...moving beyond rational does not mean one is no longer rational...but that rational thought is no longer the primary mode of knowing stuff
...but we keep a nice shiny skeptic in our pocket
but if we grow beyond rational and completely discard rational thinking (for some reason)...there will be a "hole," or a "shadow," if you will...and our later stage will have a serious limp
of course, there is almost always some temporary form of rejecting the stage we just left...most simply because our new stage developed in response to some limitation of the previous...which is often a painful experience of loss
...
and i can imagine why "growth" would be a "supposed," geo
most people have not experienced much of it all in life
rational thought could have formed in us as individuals around 9-14 years old
and if we cleaved to mythic fundamentalism all the way into early and late adulthood...it seems a miracle that we grew beyond it at all
also...there is not much growth evident in mainstream society, either
but, of course, even rational thought is limited to the data we look at
...
beyond rational (but best if rational is included) is characterized by social democracy, free information, caring communities, universal human rights, journalism and dialogue
and like i mentioned about the "limp" above....i dont think its hard to see how much trouble is caused when and where rational thought is being rejected in these fields
this worldview is possible at about 15-21 years or so...though obviously, there is no guarantee we grow to here at this age
but rational is a bit too concerned with successes and accomplishments to have such universal values
...a bit too concerned with proving the truth of things before seeing any other kinds of values in them (such as goodness or beauty)
and rational tends to dismiss the interior dimension of life (not just talking about brain cells, either..but the subjective and inter-subjective arts)
and so any mode of knowing that comes from deeper interpersonal activity is likely to be dismissed as more of the same ole religion
...when, like rational, this stage is simply building yet again upon the power of cooperation
...
there are other stages beyond this, of course
involving things like integrating all the previous perspectives, consciousness, aging, dying, etc...
...and the redemptive values on the other side of failure, loss, etc...
Edited by sirguessalotLink to comment
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