Maybe this is off topic but, have you ever noticed that people with these tendencies seem to have a "knack" for finding their way into middle management positions?
Maybe this is off topic but, have you ever noticed that people with these tendencies seem to have a "knack" for finding their way into middle management positions?
i work in the construction industry and have worked for a few, had a few on my crew, and dealt with a few in other trades.
I know I've posted this on the other thread that Dot is referring to, but I think it applies here as well.
... [the sociopath]who can't really experience remorse, or guilt.
Can't? ... Or won't?
Maybe one thing we need to keep in mind is that sociopaths don't care about anybody else but themselves. ... Don't care. That is a (passive) act of will. They could care, ... but they don't. See, many of them (if not all of them) realize about the basic premise of "You live in a world with other people", but they just won't honor it. ... Because they just don't care.
That is, until they have a loaded gun stuck into their face, and the angry gun wielder is 1 microsecond shy from pulling the trigger, that is. <_< ... THEN they are fully cognizent that they live in a world with other people.
Them and child molesters, I just don't go with this crap of 'they have an illness!'. ... Yeah? Well, I got just the 'pill' to cure it.
It's called a .44 caliber bullet.
------
One thing that many people forget, is that all the decisions we make along the way in the Path called Life make up who/what we are. This includes in the process of developing a conscience. Morals/ethics are a learned behavior, not something that is 'born within'. (If that isn't true, then why even bother to raise your children? :unsure: )
Interesting that those 'authorities' that claim that sociopaths cannot learn better offer no medical/physiological evidence to support their hypothesis. ... None. ... Ziltch. Well then, since we are to Question Authority, then let's question the 'authorities' of those who say that sociopaths just cannot be made to change. ... Ie., where is their evidence?
Maybe one thing we need to keep in mind is that sociopaths don't care about anybody else but themselves. ... Don't care. That is a (passive) act of will. They could care, ... but they don't. See, many of them (if not all of them) realize about the basic premise of "You live in a world with other people", but they just won't honor it. ... Because they just don't care.
That is, until they have a loaded gun stuck into their face, and the angry gun wielder is 1 microsecond shy from pulling the trigger, that is. dry.gif ... THEN they are fully cognizent that they live in a world with other people.
Them and child molesters, I just don't go with this crap of 'they have an illness!'. ... Yeah? Well, I got just the 'pill' to cure it.
It's called a .44 caliber bullet.
A bit harsh.
I work with and called a friend what I would imagine must have been a sociopath. In many ways he was a tortured soul. Not knowing or understanding why he hurt people with his words and actions. Unable to accept praise. Does he deserve to live? I'd be the last to cast a stone.
The person you're describing isn't a sociopath, since (apparently) he still cares. Ie., he is exhibiting a sense of conscience, and realizes that there are other people in society.
Sociopaths are capable of also showing a conscience, caring for people, realizing that there are other people in the world, but don't apply that capability. ... Ie., it isn't where they can't care.
They just do not care. ... A level of apathy that grows and evolves over the years.
They are the business version of a "survivor".They will praise you for anything you do that helps THEM.
Sometimes they will praise you for things that don't appear to have an ulterior motive and the praise will feel oddly hollow.If they think you have become a liability or have discovered some dirty secret about them, they can drop you like a hot potato and never feel a drop of remorse. They may feign remorse because they know that you and society in general will expect it. But, in reality, they are "play acting". It's to your benefit to know if you are dealing with a sociopath ahead of time because the more you can know about the opposition the better off you'll be.
You see them in law firms. I've worked for two, who I would say were definite sociopaths.
Its not that they don't care. A real sociopath is beyond that. They cannot care, no matter what.
I consider them "defects." There is literally something missing in their mind/conscience.
They are "defective."
They have no clue how others feel. The can pretend to be remorseful, caring, but they aren't. They have no clue.
The successful ones in law, have what I call the Dr. Jeckyl/Dr. Hyde syndrome. They are wonderful, amazing schoozers with clients, political people, anyone who counts. But, in the office they are tyrants, flying into rages at employees, girlfriends, family - they let down their guard. They will then literally wonder why someone is upset - they don't get it.
They just don't get it. They never can.
One of my bosses last year even ran for mayor of my fair city. He lost.
The other raging psycho lawyer is climbing up the ranks of the local Democratic party here - rising up in ranks, a "behind the scenes" guy.
You see them in the top in other professions and business. In some businesses, you must be one to succeed.
Sociopaths are capable of also showing a conscience, caring for people, realizing that there are other people in the world, but don't apply that capability. ... Ie., it isn't where they can't care.
I tend to think more like you Garth, no excuses, personal responsibility and all ...
BUT ... I'm not sure where that practical line is between having the ability to care but not applying caring ... and having that ability so far buried that they are basically incapable of acting on it without an outside threat.
A lawyer told me after she went through the haill of lawschool, she was more ready to take advantage of others to get hers. Maybe you can be trained to not care. Lawyers do seem to be taught to win regardless of the right or wrong. My experience says they are willing to do ignore morals and see what they can get away with.
The ability to care may become so suppressed that it would never surface without severe shock treatment. :blink: We might as well clinically define that person as "incapable" of caring. Their life patterns have "evolved" to where caring is a very low priority. Winning or even harming may become an obsession.
I don't know if that tendency might be genetic as well, or brought on by some intense emotional scarring ... but it seems obvious some are more ruthless than others, so a sociopath would merely be that nature to an extreme ... People talk about being close to "the edge" ... maybe a sociopath is a person who went over that edge.
maybe ... or maybe it is just a clinical term for "real arseholes" :o
I learned that there are millions of men and women who have no conscience and therefore can not feel things like empathy and compassion. They never feel guilt or remorse or shame. Sociopaths don't feel true happiness or real love. They're often referred to as 'empty souls'. Do you think you could spot one? It's highly unlikely because they look just like everyone else.
.....
Sociopaths do not have the ability to experience emotion and do not form real attachments to people and places. Without the ability to form real emotional attachments, sociopaths do not have any sense of obligation-no moral obligation or financial obligation. They view people as objects that can be exploited and manipulated.
Take a look over not only the statements in the quotes, but over all the sources of said quotes, ... and tell me this:
Where is the evidence/independent studies that proves, ... _proves_ ... that they cannot (as opposed to does not) ... care?
And for those who talk about 'missing portions of the brain', well, keep in mind that the concept of realizing that you live in a world with other people, and that its important for you to respect their rights, ... ie., realizing right from wrong, ... is a mental concept that can, and is, _learned_. Just like any other mental concept.
Maybe a person isn't as emotional as others in realizing this. For different people experience different emotions in a different manner. ... That doesn't stop them from having the capability from caring about, and respecting, the rights of other people. Hell, the fact that the sociopaths can be made (with the threat of force, for example) to respect other people and their rights automatically blows away the lie that they just cannot care, and act accordingly.
I can see Rhino's point about people burying their ability to care so deep that it becomes, in effect, an inability. But even then, they are still responsible for burying it to begin with. ... Ie., which indicates an inborn ability to (not) care.
One thing I find myself wondering is if they are able to spot each other, form alliances, cover for each other.
Just wondering.
I don't know for a fact, but my feeling on this is NO, they wouldn't. Mostly because they don't recognize the condition in themselves. It's all they know how to be, and they assume everyone else is the same way. They only appear to make alliances with people to get what they want... if you paired two of these kind of people together I suspect they would quickly be working against each other instead of with each other.
I haven't done voluminous research on it, but I've read that if a newborn were blindfolded from birth and not allowed to see anything for 6 months or so, that the child would be forever blind.
The synapeses (sp?) necessary for connecting the eyes to the brain don't develop during the window of time when they should, and so are never able to later.
Would it be that much of a stretch to imagine the connections necessary for a "normal" functioning person's empathy would never develop if that child were subjected to constant abuse and neglect?
I notice that almost universally, that child abusers and molesters were themselves abused or molested as children.
I think there's a lot that goes on in the developing brain that explains people's behavior in later life.
And then there's my theory that some people are just born rotten. Hell, we have people with all sorts of genetic abnormalities and inherent inabilities. Why couldn't there be a genetic base for some mental and or social pathologies?
I could buy that George, it makes a lot of sense. In many cases, I`ll bet it is true..... Except I have an aunt and uncle that raised 3 normal successful children and one whom was *different* from the day she was born. No effort or expense was spared to try to help her. She was just different in her outlook. It was all about her.
I have a niece that is very much the same way...she told her mom when a young child that her mother was there for 2 things ...to buy her things and take her places. My sister laughs to cover the hurt, she tells herself that the now teenager that she has doted on and sacrificed for doesn`t really mean it. That it is normal. The rest of us all see though, that people are only worthy of her attention as long as they can provide her with something that she wants..a resource to be exploited.
So, is being a sociopath a genetic/fetal abnormality or a learned deficit?
I don't know
For a sane mind to grasp insanity is always difficult for we have to take concepts we do not think or feel and explain them. Maybe they are born lacking ability or perhaps it is in early development or perhaps a cold rotten choice not to care about others.
I wonder if the professionals even REALLY know. The explanation I choose to believe is they are not able because in my sane mind, trying to understand how people can be SO cold and rotten, it is easier for me to understand missing a screw than intentionally choosing not to put it in its proper place.
But regardless of how they GET there -- the signs make me ambivalent. They are VERY charming, can be generous etc. The illness is in the motive. So, it is easy to be sucked in cause when you do not know the motive all you can study is the actions...
So a gregarious person gives you a compliment, they mean it!!! A sociopath gives you a compliment to merely get something...
Can look the same on the surface, so I can see how people get tricked.
One thing for damn sure, ... and that is any and all sociopaths would just _jump_ at the chance of having their malevolent behaviors explained away/excused by calling their lack of caring/empathy/respect for others, as something that they just can't help.
Ie., "Well, I just can't help myself! ((snif)) I was born this way, ... and you just can't expect me to change the way I am, ... can you?! :unsure: ... Its a syndrome. ... A sickness! "
(((shrugs))) Ok! ... Let me get my .44 caliber 'pill'. .... I won't even charge Blue Cross for it either. .... Not that they would offer any coverage, mind you.
What is sick is that in the ministry this behavior ...coldness...lack of feeling was encouraged. As a woman, I was too emotional, that was threatening...Satan could trick us through our emotions....we needed men who were logical who wouldn`t be swayed by emotions to keep us from getting tricked.
I saw it in my spouse and what was required of him.
I don`t know if being a sociopath can be learned...I know that his father fits the mold...I don`t know if it is the alcoholism that has run in the family for generations....hell I don`t know if alcoholism ISN`T part of it ...they certainly don`t seem to care what their drinking does to those around them...who is destroyed...shrug...maybe there is no correlation.
I just know that emotions were regarded as dangerous in twi and they had to be reigned in and tightly controlled. Family ignored, kids a liability to be thrown out if they didn`t measure up... pregnancies that were inconveniences that needed to be terminated...
Can a person learn to be a sociopath, or were some of us sociopaths that simply needed the right environment to blossom?
What is sick is that in the ministry this behavior ...coldness...lack of feeling was encouraged. As a woman, I was too emotional, that was threatening...Satan could trick us through our emotions....we needed men who were logical who wouldn`t be swayed by emotions to keep us from getting tricked.
I saw it in my spouse and what was required of him.
I don`t know if being a sociopath can be learned...I know that his father fits the mold...I don`t know if it is the alcoholism that has run in the family for generations....hell I don`t know if alcoholism ISN`T part of it ...they certainly don`t seem to care what their drinking does to those around them...who is destroyed...shrug...maybe there is no correlation.
I just know that emotions were regarded as dangerous in twi and they had to be reigned in and tightly controlled. Family ignored, kids a liability to be thrown out if they didn`t measure up... pregnancies that were inconveniences that needed to be terminated...
Can a person learn to be a sociopath, or were some of us sociopaths that simply needed the right environment to blossom?
Although, there are certain sections of society, i.e. Germanic, Baltic, Slavic types where to show emotions and caring is just never done. It's like being Vulcan or something. Move over Spock! My heritage is from these areas and I have seen just that type of behavior; it doesn't mean that they do not care, they just do not show emotions to others because it has been taught to them that to show emotions connotes weakness. Kind of the same thing where little boys are taught early on that to cry is not what big boys do, that's for girls. So sometimes perhaps before judgment is passed onto people that they are sociopaths, perhaps it stems from their heritages.
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waysider
Maybe this is off topic but, have you ever noticed that people with these tendencies seem to have a "knack" for finding their way into middle management positions?
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Seth R.
Dot that was awesome.
Seth
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shiftthis
i work in the construction industry and have worked for a few, had a few on my crew, and dealt with a few in other trades.
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GarthP2000
I know I've posted this on the other thread that Dot is referring to, but I think it applies here as well.
Can't? ... Or won't?
Maybe one thing we need to keep in mind is that sociopaths don't care about anybody else but themselves. ... Don't care. That is a (passive) act of will. They could care, ... but they don't. See, many of them (if not all of them) realize about the basic premise of "You live in a world with other people", but they just won't honor it. ... Because they just don't care.
That is, until they have a loaded gun stuck into their face, and the angry gun wielder is 1 microsecond shy from pulling the trigger, that is. <_< ... THEN they are fully cognizent that they live in a world with other people.
Them and child molesters, I just don't go with this crap of 'they have an illness!'. ... Yeah? Well, I got just the 'pill' to cure it.
It's called a .44 caliber bullet.
------
One thing that many people forget, is that all the decisions we make along the way in the Path called Life make up who/what we are. This includes in the process of developing a conscience. Morals/ethics are a learned behavior, not something that is 'born within'. (If that isn't true, then why even bother to raise your children? :unsure: )
Interesting that those 'authorities' that claim that sociopaths cannot learn better offer no medical/physiological evidence to support their hypothesis. ... None. ... Ziltch. Well then, since we are to Question Authority, then let's question the 'authorities' of those who say that sociopaths just cannot be made to change. ... Ie., where is their evidence?
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Jim
See also "People of the Lie" by H. Scott Peck.
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Dot Matrix
I read "people of the lie" years ago -- it was awesome
And the interview, Seth, is awsome if you click on the link it is packed with GREAT info I could only highlight here.
I have seen the qualities of the sociopath in middle and top management
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Jim
A bit harsh.
I work with and called a friend what I would imagine must have been a sociopath. In many ways he was a tortured soul. Not knowing or understanding why he hurt people with his words and actions. Unable to accept praise. Does he deserve to live? I'd be the last to cast a stone.
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GarthP2000
Jim,
The person you're describing isn't a sociopath, since (apparently) he still cares. Ie., he is exhibiting a sense of conscience, and realizes that there are other people in society.
Sociopaths are capable of also showing a conscience, caring for people, realizing that there are other people in the world, but don't apply that capability. ... Ie., it isn't where they can't care.
They just do not care. ... A level of apathy that grows and evolves over the years.
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waysider
Sociopaths make perfect middle managers.
They are the business version of a "survivor".They will praise you for anything you do that helps THEM.
Sometimes they will praise you for things that don't appear to have an ulterior motive and the praise will feel oddly hollow.If they think you have become a liability or have discovered some dirty secret about them, they can drop you like a hot potato and never feel a drop of remorse. They may feign remorse because they know that you and society in general will expect it. But, in reality, they are "play acting". It's to your benefit to know if you are dealing with a sociopath ahead of time because the more you can know about the opposition the better off you'll be.
BTW---I'm only telling you this because I care.
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Sunesis
You see them in law firms. I've worked for two, who I would say were definite sociopaths.
Its not that they don't care. A real sociopath is beyond that. They cannot care, no matter what.
I consider them "defects." There is literally something missing in their mind/conscience.
They are "defective."
They have no clue how others feel. The can pretend to be remorseful, caring, but they aren't. They have no clue.
The successful ones in law, have what I call the Dr. Jeckyl/Dr. Hyde syndrome. They are wonderful, amazing schoozers with clients, political people, anyone who counts. But, in the office they are tyrants, flying into rages at employees, girlfriends, family - they let down their guard. They will then literally wonder why someone is upset - they don't get it.
They just don't get it. They never can.
One of my bosses last year even ran for mayor of my fair city. He lost.
The other raging psycho lawyer is climbing up the ranks of the local Democratic party here - rising up in ranks, a "behind the scenes" guy.
You see them in the top in other professions and business. In some businesses, you must be one to succeed.
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rhino
I tend to think more like you Garth, no excuses, personal responsibility and all ...
BUT ... I'm not sure where that practical line is between having the ability to care but not applying caring ... and having that ability so far buried that they are basically incapable of acting on it without an outside threat.
A lawyer told me after she went through the haill of lawschool, she was more ready to take advantage of others to get hers. Maybe you can be trained to not care. Lawyers do seem to be taught to win regardless of the right or wrong. My experience says they are willing to do ignore morals and see what they can get away with.
The ability to care may become so suppressed that it would never surface without severe shock treatment. :blink: We might as well clinically define that person as "incapable" of caring. Their life patterns have "evolved" to where caring is a very low priority. Winning or even harming may become an obsession.
I don't know if that tendency might be genetic as well, or brought on by some intense emotional scarring ... but it seems obvious some are more ruthless than others, so a sociopath would merely be that nature to an extreme ... People talk about being close to "the edge" ... maybe a sociopath is a person who went over that edge.
maybe ... or maybe it is just a clinical term for "real arseholes" :o
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Al Poole
HOLY SHI........... I AGREE WITH GARTH OMG!!!!!!!!!
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Dot Matrix
Without Empathy:
http://withoutempathy.blogspot.com/2006/01...e-among-us.html
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Dot Matrix
http://tearsandhealing.com/sociopath3.htm
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waysider
One thing I find myself wondering is if they are able to spot each other, form alliances, cover for each other.
Just wondering.
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GarthP2000
Uhhh Dot,
Take a look over not only the statements in the quotes, but over all the sources of said quotes, ... and tell me this:
Where is the evidence/independent studies that proves, ... _proves_ ... that they cannot (as opposed to does not) ... care?
And for those who talk about 'missing portions of the brain', well, keep in mind that the concept of realizing that you live in a world with other people, and that its important for you to respect their rights, ... ie., realizing right from wrong, ... is a mental concept that can, and is, _learned_. Just like any other mental concept.
Maybe a person isn't as emotional as others in realizing this. For different people experience different emotions in a different manner. ... That doesn't stop them from having the capability from caring about, and respecting, the rights of other people. Hell, the fact that the sociopaths can be made (with the threat of force, for example) to respect other people and their rights automatically blows away the lie that they just cannot care, and act accordingly.
I can see Rhino's point about people burying their ability to care so deep that it becomes, in effect, an inability. But even then, they are still responsible for burying it to begin with. ... Ie., which indicates an inborn ability to (not) care.
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TheHighWay
I don't know for a fact, but my feeling on this is NO, they wouldn't. Mostly because they don't recognize the condition in themselves. It's all they know how to be, and they assume everyone else is the same way. They only appear to make alliances with people to get what they want... if you paired two of these kind of people together I suspect they would quickly be working against each other instead of with each other.
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George Aar
I haven't done voluminous research on it, but I've read that if a newborn were blindfolded from birth and not allowed to see anything for 6 months or so, that the child would be forever blind.
The synapeses (sp?) necessary for connecting the eyes to the brain don't develop during the window of time when they should, and so are never able to later.
Would it be that much of a stretch to imagine the connections necessary for a "normal" functioning person's empathy would never develop if that child were subjected to constant abuse and neglect?
I notice that almost universally, that child abusers and molesters were themselves abused or molested as children.
I think there's a lot that goes on in the developing brain that explains people's behavior in later life.
And then there's my theory that some people are just born rotten. Hell, we have people with all sorts of genetic abnormalities and inherent inabilities. Why couldn't there be a genetic base for some mental and or social pathologies?
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rascal
I could buy that George, it makes a lot of sense. In many cases, I`ll bet it is true..... Except I have an aunt and uncle that raised 3 normal successful children and one whom was *different* from the day she was born. No effort or expense was spared to try to help her. She was just different in her outlook. It was all about her.
I have a niece that is very much the same way...she told her mom when a young child that her mother was there for 2 things ...to buy her things and take her places. My sister laughs to cover the hurt, she tells herself that the now teenager that she has doted on and sacrificed for doesn`t really mean it. That it is normal. The rest of us all see though, that people are only worthy of her attention as long as they can provide her with something that she wants..a resource to be exploited.
I have a father in law that is that way as well.
I`d have to wonder if it wasn`t both.
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Dot Matrix
So, is being a sociopath a genetic/fetal abnormality or a learned deficit?
I don't know
For a sane mind to grasp insanity is always difficult for we have to take concepts we do not think or feel and explain them. Maybe they are born lacking ability or perhaps it is in early development or perhaps a cold rotten choice not to care about others.
I wonder if the professionals even REALLY know. The explanation I choose to believe is they are not able because in my sane mind, trying to understand how people can be SO cold and rotten, it is easier for me to understand missing a screw than intentionally choosing not to put it in its proper place.
But regardless of how they GET there -- the signs make me ambivalent. They are VERY charming, can be generous etc. The illness is in the motive. So, it is easy to be sucked in cause when you do not know the motive all you can study is the actions...
So a gregarious person gives you a compliment, they mean it!!! A sociopath gives you a compliment to merely get something...
Can look the same on the surface, so I can see how people get tricked.
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GarthP2000
One thing for damn sure, ... and that is any and all sociopaths would just _jump_ at the chance of having their malevolent behaviors explained away/excused by calling their lack of caring/empathy/respect for others, as something that they just can't help.
Ie., "Well, I just can't help myself! ((snif)) I was born this way, ... and you just can't expect me to change the way I am, ... can you?! :unsure: ... Its a syndrome. ... A sickness!
"
(((shrugs))) Ok! ... Let me get my .44 caliber 'pill'. .... I won't even charge Blue Cross for it either. .... Not that they would offer any coverage, mind you.
"NO! Keep that maniac away from me!!!" :ph34r:
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Dot Matrix
Garth
I UNDERSTAND more than you will ever know, about what you are saying and responsibility.
MORE THAN YOU WILL EVER KNOW
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rascal
What is sick is that in the ministry this behavior ...coldness...lack of feeling was encouraged. As a woman, I was too emotional, that was threatening...Satan could trick us through our emotions....we needed men who were logical who wouldn`t be swayed by emotions to keep us from getting tricked.
I saw it in my spouse and what was required of him.
I don`t know if being a sociopath can be learned...I know that his father fits the mold...I don`t know if it is the alcoholism that has run in the family for generations....hell I don`t know if alcoholism ISN`T part of it ...they certainly don`t seem to care what their drinking does to those around them...who is destroyed...shrug...maybe there is no correlation.
I just know that emotions were regarded as dangerous in twi and they had to be reigned in and tightly controlled. Family ignored, kids a liability to be thrown out if they didn`t measure up... pregnancies that were inconveniences that needed to be terminated...
Can a person learn to be a sociopath, or were some of us sociopaths that simply needed the right environment to blossom?
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brideofjc
Although, there are certain sections of society, i.e. Germanic, Baltic, Slavic types where to show emotions and caring is just never done. It's like being Vulcan or something. Move over Spock! My heritage is from these areas and I have seen just that type of behavior; it doesn't mean that they do not care, they just do not show emotions to others because it has been taught to them that to show emotions connotes weakness. Kind of the same thing where little boys are taught early on that to cry is not what big boys do, that's for girls. So sometimes perhaps before judgment is passed onto people that they are sociopaths, perhaps it stems from their heritages.
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