I think it takes two for a marriage. so that would require vows from both people.
The same vows. Obviously a lot of these vows were not from the heart and therefore not a vow as it's speaking of there. If the vows of marriage were truly a vow then there would not be so many divorces. Some folks just don't take it seriously. Abusing the spouse and other things that hurt without change reveals that person never vowed anyway. So that's what I think on the marriage deal. In part I reckon.
I would think a vow unto the Lord would originate with the Lord anyway. With the Lord seeing more then us. Which means that God has a part in this vow too. And things do change and will even in a vow.
So lets say I make a vow with another person.
That other person could not agree and reject that vow.
I see what you are saying and I am thinking the same way
Lucy- it is interesting to me as I think I have beat myself up over this VOW thing when God may not have been in many of the vows I made...
Look at the OT again
Numbers 30
2If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth
Shoot, either I need to stop communicating or this is not meant to be some rigid thing to the NT people
Cause I have said
I swear I am never going to eat more than one piece of pizza again ....and I have.
I promise I will always tithe -- and I didn't
I vowed I would always stand with TWI (back when I thought IT was THE ministry) after I saw it was a bad VOW - I broke it.
I stayed on the WOW field afraid to break a VOW when I needed to go home for my Dad.
ETC....
My responsibility would be to exam my words before I speak them, but in the balance of that, I am not bound by all I have spoken as I have a loving forgiving God. And some vows were not suppose to be made... So, we recognize the mistake, or the circumstances around the vow -- or the changed circumstances and go from there... By giving value to the NT and the commands there. GOD MUST HAVE SEEN we could not keep the law -- because he gave his only begotten son...
Matthew 22:36-40.
'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul
and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
With TWI I SAW that I could not Love the Lord the way it is stated above and carry out the requests of TWI
With pizza - maybe I should say "I will try...."
And with the tithe - not make declarations I may not always keep...
The WOW field - I should have taken care of my home responsibilities and never let people USE this VOW thing to make me do what they wanted me to do - rather than follow my godly heart and what I felt God wanted me to do...
Part is my BAD
And the other well, I do not think God is as rigid on us as we are on ourselves sometimes.
Quit beating yourself up trying to equate OT vows with modern day "promises".
They're not the same thing.I took a salt covenant the first time I got married. It was basically one of those "any two believers-------"kind of arrangements.It didn't work out. It no longer matters to me why it didn't. I'm just glad we didn't stay together simply because we went through the motions of a ritual that holds a different meaning today than it did in the OT. Maybe she's even on GreaseSpot. I don't know. It doesn't matter. I have no animosity toward her. I hope she has none toward me. I'm glad now that we went our separate ways. It was the best thing for both of us. Hang in there, Dot. Don't try to solve too many puzzles at one time. It's too stressful. Just work on the day-to-day stuff for now. That's my two cents. Probably over priced at that.
Dot, the OT laws, codes - often attempt to cover a lot of ground morally - do thus and such, but if such and so occurs, do this. Unless there's this or that in which case do this.
Jesus interpreted that the greatest, first commandment of OT law was to love and place God first He confirms that and a second one, "like" it, to love others as you love yourself. In these "hang" all the other laws.
He also taught not to make vows - in the sense that the integrity of what we do shouldn't require a contract or vow, but we should simply do what we say or promise to do and that's that.
On the other hand - compare that to the incident where a man comes to Jesus and asks him to settle a matter of an inheritance within a family and how it was being divided. Jesus responded "who made me a judge over you?"
That little reference has always intrigued me - that Jesus wouldn't get wrapped up in a legal dispute amongst siblings, but worked with full authority in spiritual laws.
I can see your questions and thoughts are the same kinds we all deal with and mankind has always dealt with. Whether we apply specific codes to them or broader codes, we have to work with them and try to come to the "best" decisions and outcomes that we can, given the circumstances. Like Solomon with the women and the baby - wisdom is where we find it and it can flow from the basic core values we hold. But we shouldn't always try for a cut-paste answer, based on verses that we try to obey. The verses in these sections you quoted can give direction for our own decisions and "justice" but will require work to get there.
2If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth
God is balanced and his word (from what I see) is balanced
There is an admirable way to divorce (break vows in the larger sense) for right reasons that the Lord would not object to –
IMO
WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS?
Dot,
From what I know of your situation, these versus from Corinthians would be applicable:
I Cor. 7:12, 13, 15
But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother whas a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her, and a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him.
But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace.
From what I've seen, you did everything you knew to do to hold up your end of the marriage vow. He chose to leave. So according to the New Testatment, you're not under any obligation. God wants you to have peace.
I'm sure it's not easy, but don't beat yourself up over broken vows. You didn't break it.
I'm sorry to hear of your troubles, and I'm sorry to hear of your friend. I don't know any specifics of your friends distress but it doesn't sound like a good situation.
I'd like to hear what you think after reading what Paul's councel concerning marriage in 1st Corinthians is. Here he handles these things at times saying what the commandments of the Lord are, and at times simply giving advice that's good advice but he's sensitive to the fact that these things at times will be hard to bear.
I've gone to this along with desiring to believe the things in the gospels are the best things I can aspire to in marriage.
I hope this helps, but not knowing your friends distress and the big picture of her marriage like a friend would makes it hard for me to say more.
(added in editing)
This may not need to be a concern for you but I just have to say it just in case Dot. I hope that your friends situation doesn't get to be too much for you to handle as far as ministering to her goes.
If you think that you might be getting in over your head do you have good friends to reach out to yourself Dot?
I've been thinking about my last posting and it seems to me that it's a lot like my first answer to you in your lawn care thread. I said that I needed more info to give you good advise then too.
This time it's not just a lawn care question and what I see in the situation is that it's not just you in the situation this time, but your friend and her (if I understand you right anyway) and her husband too. I don't know them at all either. And I don't want to give you any well intended but bad advise, the stakes are too high.
I just hope that your own recent experiences don't color your advice to her in any way.
Marriages are suppose to stay together and I generally look for how to make that happen, but if it's dangerous for her I'd want her out of there until the whole situation can be dealt with properly.
It seems to me that there are a lot of potential pitfalls for you in this situation.
They cannot stand each other and in 29 years they only had sex half a dozen times...
They are miserable.
IF they want out, I do not think they should stay together bcause they made a promise to each other --- of which the core is empy and missing.
The point is in more general terms - where I wanted to keep this so it applies where it applies to whomever it applies --- bad vows, before God, do not have to be kept in order for God to love you
My sister was married to her husband for I believe 52 years.
He was brutal. Constantly humiliated her (called her a scroungy b*tch in a most loving way).
I personally witnessed him slapping the crap out of her. I lived with them for six years and I was to small to do anything about it.
Here is the point! He died of heart failure about 2 years ago and left her with nothing.
But she stayed with him all this time and to this day will defend and make excuses for him.
Totally insane! She is now 70 years old and knows no other way but the way he treated her.
She has trouble functioning without drinking because she don't have him to tell her what to do.
No doubt she loved him, and I will have to admit I loved him to.
But I absolutely do not respect him and I believe that in a case like this the vow was null and void because he did not keep his end of the bargain.
Not only did he cause her to suffer but the whole family was affected.
So from the perspective of someone who witnessed my sister keep her vow under the most cruel circumstances my opinion is acknowledge that you love them but
never allow yourself to be treated with disrespect. Get away from the situation if not for your sake for those who love you.
This may be an extreme example but the principles are still the same.
My recent experiences are like fuel to me on this topic too. In my situation I was painted as the bad guy even though that with the problems I had in my younger years my wife admitted often that I was improving constantly in the areas of my life that were scarred in my youth. I was never, ever violent but there is plenty of things that I failed in still.
For my wife's part she never came to terms with the state of her life when we met either and forgot the good things of our earlier years together.
Now we get to the place where in our small splinter group the considered me disorderly, I consider them to be virtually unfixable in biblical terms. My wife took to the minister as her man. Not in a sexual way, but in terms of owner and father. For years I stayed in this situation for the churche's and my marriage's sake. Often we lived with other people and things were smooth in the living situation, we worked it out.
If I was such a throw away scum bag as they would have everyone believe then why wasn't there ever a problem with any of the many couples we lived with? The answer is simple, I am not the bad guy, but the "apostle" so to speak had still made me a marked man.
I believe that it was all too easy to get my wife to believe their twisted position on many things, and they certainly didn't help me try to make my marriage better, they even told her she didn't have to discuss our past together with me.
My wife left and the church kicked me out.
If anything I'm going to be careful to prove any notions of a "bad vow" because by that same opinion my life was wrecked deliberately.
I think that even if someone holds to the scripture on these things that a marriage is worth having good councel, a lot of fighting for, and someone who is capable of helping them with a lot of sweat and tears before giving up.
If the situation is like the one that Jeast is talking about it's another matter altogether. But I'm not going to judge anyone without being close to the situation and fully informed. There are lives at stake.
Sorry if I came across a little harsh but when I get the slightest impression someone is getting abused it flips my switch.
JeffSjo's post caused me to pause and remember.
My wife and I got married very young and had a little girl before we were 18.
I this case I was the stupid jerk. I would find excuses to stay out late so I did not have to buck up and act like a father and a husband.
I cannot explain how humbling it feels to have someone be so faithful and loving knowing you don't deserve it.
Her parents never did interfere and if they did it may have worked out differently. I don't think she would have listened to them anyway.
A lot of folks like to hack on the Word but IMHO that is what turned my sorry a** around. Somehow the verse "Husbands love your wives and give your life for them like Christ did the church" meant something to me.
We have been married 38 years now and have 4 wonderful kids and 11 grandkids. I try my best to never take my marriage for granted anymore and to consciously do the things that strengthens our relationship. Even if sometimes I don't particularly feel like it because it is no longer just about me.
She could have easily and justifiably cut and run but in this case it worked out. I believe I have learned my lesson and for the last 35 years I have done my best to never make that same mistake again.
I'm adding an article on vows and oaths from the Dictionary of Biblical Imagery.
Vows and oaths evoke the idea of a serious setting, such as a court of law (oath) or a wedding ceremony (vow). That the wedding vow is actually an oath betrays a widespread blurring of the distinction between oaths and vows in the Hebrew Bible. An oath is an abbreviated covenant (Gen 26:28), a promise between two or more persons in which the name of a deity is invoked as witness and and guarantor. The oath is normally represented by the act of "swearing" (making a solemn promise) or by placing oneself (Mk 14:71). By contrast, a vow is a solemn promise made by a person to his or her deity. The vow normally includes an oath formula, but its direction is vertical, not horizontal like the oath. Whereas oaths are between persons, the vow is directed toward God. It always takes place within the context of prayer since it is always addressed to God. Vows are normally made in times of distress, and the supplicant's gift is often contingent upon the granting of his petition (Judg 11:30; 1 Sam 14:24)
The serious nature of all promises and conduct before God is reflected in the taking of oaths and vows. Acdcording to Mosaic law, the Lord's name was not to be taken lightly in the swearing of oaths (Ex 20:7; Deut 5:11). Yahweh would personally punish the swearer of such a false oath. sin is not determined by whether a person vows or not. Rather, once uttered, a vow is as binding as an oath (Deut 23:21-23) and should therefore not be made carelessly (Prov 20:25).
Truthfulness as the paragon of all speech is reflected in God's binding of himself by an oath (Heb 6:13-18 cf. Jer 22:5) and by the fact that Christ is the guarantor of all the OT promises. Jesus taught that oaths were binding (Mt 5:33) and that the Christian's daily conversation is considered as sacred as oaths. If, as the obedience of God's kingdom mandates, deeds correspond to words, then oaths will be unneccessary (Mt 5:34-37; Col 3:17; Jas 1:22; 5:12; 1 Jn 3:18).
Since my words are not excathedra, yet I want my words to be utilized with caution. Americans are not used to such vow taking (at least not in the last 75 years) as those that lived in the Eastern countries. I do believe that words are very powerful weapons of warfare either with blessings or cursings et al. I also think that if two people stand before the Lord God and vow before HIM to be in marriage, it should be honored to the level that it can be honored. In the first place, we are not living in an Eastern culture, where abuse of women is considered completely normal. We have laws against it, albeit, 150+ or so years ago, even America had this "law" called "rule of thumb" whereby a man was allowed to beat his wife with a rod or stick as long as it didn't exceed the thickness of his thumb. In Britain, it actually was included in the Court of Common Pleas, but I'm not sure if in America it was a carry over from Britain or if it actually was a law on the official books. Since we do not live in such a culture, I would say that if one of the partners were being physically abused, I would say "get out" and if the abused partner thought they wanted to try and save the marriage, I would say go ahead, but just don't live together until enough counseling was sought and definite improvements had been made. If the partners are Christian, I think they should work it out if at all possible because the Lord Jesus was very specific on his stance against divorce. If the marriage was made at too young of an age, there could be exceptions and especially if they were not Christians. If one is a Christian and the unbeliever departs, then there is not guilt or shame and there isn't any transgression on the books. If however, BOTH considered themselves to be Christian and someone wants to leave just so that they can have new adventures with new and exciting people, I would read very carefully what the Lord Jesus has to say about marriage vows. I think the whole point of vow taking is for the person to learn how to keep their word no matter what and to be careful about what you utter. Perhaps this is why the Word states "Let your words be few."If however, your vow was made in ignorance concerning the situation, such as TWI, the vows were broken by them first, in that they didn't fulfill their end of the vow and I would say it would release you from your end. I do not think any situation can have just a quick diagnosis made, but it should be sought diligently in prayer before rushing into anything that either party may regret later.
I'm not sure that we do not understand each other already, but I'd like to be clear in anycase for everybodie's good.
I'm not willing to state that "it depends" is my stand, but maybe you and I don't think the same about "depends on what."
I think that it's clear scripturally that God intended marriage to be a lifelong bond. But in 1st Corinthians even though Paul makes it clear that the Lord's commandment is for the wife to not leave the husband he gives guidance for how she should live if she does leave her husband. So in my little pea-brain it would be follie for anyone to decide wrongly that a particular marriage vow was ungodly unless they had such a rock-solid case that it would be easy to be understood.
But even though the commandmant is clear, there is advice given on how to conduct ourselves if for whatever reason we should NEED to fall short of the commandment. I see grace and mercy, not heavy handed legalism.
My experiences were not in TWI, but in a small splinter group with which I've been fellowshipping with until my expulsion since 1989 or so. When I read about how TWI ruined so many marriages here on this site I'm certain that my little group's high handed and twisted approach to my marriage at the very least was "birthed" in TWI leadership meetings as they were either fooled into or deliberately wicked in determining which spouse was to end up being thrown out like so much garbage.
I believe if your friend is seeking the will of God for her life that it's a much bigger task than you alone might be able to help her with, especially because of your recent divorce experiences. I just don't want any "snap judgements" made by you that may be unduly influenced by your recent experiences Dot!
At the very least I hope that your friend would find a Godly, and experienced marriage counceller of some kind that is capable of helping your friend and her husband for real. I'm not saying you can't help your friend either Dot, I'm just concerned that you don't councel anything to her that you'll regret later.
I believe if your friend is seeking the will of God for her life that it's a much bigger task than you alone might be able to help her with, especially because of your recent divorce experiences. I just don't want any "snap judgements" made by you that may be unduly influenced by your recent experiences Dot!
Once again, it is NOT an influence. BTW, he divorced me - I fought FOR the marriage.
Again, I am speaking in general terms - if anyone chooses to bring up THEIR life then please do. I brought up my friend, as the LAST time people were talking about me and my situation, and I wasn't. I am talking about vows and if they can be broken. Even if not just my ONE friend.... all people everywhere stuck in misery because the respect a "vow" made even though it was a bad promise -- do not have to stay in the situation IMO
Thank you for your input and opinion about my situation, and about my ability to offer advice and about my broken vows----
I guess I should never ask a question or bring up a topic again as it seems to go back to specific things about me --- the likes of which I did not bring up. But thanks for keeping right in front of my face....
Would you stay with a murderer or does that depend? Or in your clear-cut grasp of scripture would you assume there was no way out? I feel MY God is a loving God and does NOT want anyone in a BAD or dangerous situation -- so it would depend.
I feel my God would not expect my friend to stay in a sexless marriage being as the Bible is clear about not holding back to your spouse --
BTW, my friend is male.
I believe God does not want anyone to stay unevenly yoked to an alcoholic who frivolously spends all the bill money on booze and beats his wife...
So, rather than attempt to go through every reason one should leave, or reasons not bad enough, - so one should stay - I said "It depends" I think most people can figure it out for themselves.
I am TRULY sorry you were hurt and DEEMED the bad guy. It sounds like you got the raw end of the deal. It sounds like creepy people ruined your marriage.
SO, IN YOUR CASE, then you can think the vows should have been kept. I do not think marriage is entered into lightly and I do think God hates divorce --- but again....
Independent of my personal situation
Independent of your personal situation
Independent of my friend's personal situation
In general, I do not think anyone should HAVE to keep all promises when the circumstances change --- not all vows need to be kept always. EXCEPT the command to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength and your neighbor as yourself.
I was in the Way corps. I told the world I would never leave. Well, that which I committed myself to was no longer about serving GOD - so I left. I do not think I should have stayed....
A friend of mines' mom was beaten to a pulp almost daily. What was her vow to do? Live a life in danger, in upheaval and harm? My God would not do that or have expected her to stay.
It depends... Supposing most people reading are not having a cult or off-shoot cult make their decisions for them any more, it depends. For those STILL in the cult YOU can get out – even if you swore you would never leave—you can break that promise.
I think God has called us to peace and would not have u to be ignorant. I think He loves us with a deep and unending love. I think He wants us to prosper and be in health even as our souls prosper. I think God is perfect and He changes not.
I think that until Christ returns men (and women) will continue to do our best sometimes and sometimes we won't. I think God knows that too.
I had a real tough time deciding to divorce my ex-husband because I had vowed a vow before God and I was seriously committed to that vow. If divorce was sin, as lcm shouted as he looked me right in the eye as I pondered this decision, then God must not have called me to peace. Maybe I could continue to stay in a marriage that had changed significantly over 14 years, such that I believe would have eventually prevented me from growing any further with God, or I could be honest and face the fact that the marriage was over. My ex was doing things that seriously hindered my growth and safety. He was committed to continuing those things.
It came down to a choice between 2 equally scary possibilities: I could stay married and miserable or I could divorce and have a shot at the life I believed God called me to. It's been over 15 years now and I've never married again, as I've never trusted another individual with my heart to the degree marriage would require. I don't expect I ever will. I think to marry again without that level of trust would be sin.
My bottom line is I don't think God is nearly as black and white a thinker as twi said He is. I've been a parent for almost 30 years now and I love my kids more than that - surely God loves us more than I love my kids!
It is like the verse that tells us to obey our parents in the Lord....
Well, what about that group right now with the kids being passed to old men and relatives--- they claim to be "in the lord"
Seems to me that are pedaphiles --- so does one vow a vow to do the word of God then STAY there once they realize God is not in that group?
I think using your brain is expected by God. Using your "heart" perhaps a requirement to understand the Bible. Just sticking to something which maybe harmful would not be the will of the Lord... IMO
Then, of course, it begs the question WHO SAYS IT IS HARMFUL?
The government? Thank God they are suppose to stay seperate. The leaders? What if it is a group that is sour?
Seems to me we are all responsible for a journey with God. Sometimes you can go to a person of the Lord and seek advice, but some people are NOT of the Lord who claim to be...
Where does that leave us? Responsible for our journey with God.... IMO
I'm sorry Dot if what I shared with you seems to come up short of hitting the mark in any way.
I'm not assuming that you cannot keep your situation out of your friend's life in terms of being clear. But as I don't know you very well, all I can say is that I recognize that my own heartbreaking situation has a big pull on my own advice and I want you to not fall into the same trap that this topic makes a real concern for me.
I'm certain that in any case where a spouse is in danger that no one needs to feel bad about HAVING to leave a marriage.
I'm certain that a believer does not have to feel bad if the other spouse abandons their wedding vows and/or promises.
Dear Dot,
Having said these things to each other, I'm more comfortable saying "It depends."
PEACE
P.S.
I'm real sorry if my concerns seem to unduly put you down, that is not my intent.
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cman
Hi Dot!
I think it takes two for a marriage. so that would require vows from both people.
The same vows. Obviously a lot of these vows were not from the heart and therefore not a vow as it's speaking of there. If the vows of marriage were truly a vow then there would not be so many divorces. Some folks just don't take it seriously. Abusing the spouse and other things that hurt without change reveals that person never vowed anyway. So that's what I think on the marriage deal. In part I reckon.
I would think a vow unto the Lord would originate with the Lord anyway. With the Lord seeing more then us. Which means that God has a part in this vow too. And things do change and will even in a vow.
So lets say I make a vow with another person.
That other person could not agree and reject that vow.
Or they could change the terms of the vow.
Not much different with God I would say.
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lucygoosey
I don't have anything to add, I just wanted to say this is a really interesting topic.
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Dot Matrix
CMAN
I see what you are saying and I am thinking the same way
Lucy- it is interesting to me as I think I have beat myself up over this VOW thing when God may not have been in many of the vows I made...
Look at the OT again
Numbers 30
2If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth
Shoot, either I need to stop communicating or this is not meant to be some rigid thing to the NT people
Cause I have said
I swear I am never going to eat more than one piece of pizza again ....and I have.
I promise I will always tithe -- and I didn't
I vowed I would always stand with TWI (back when I thought IT was THE ministry) after I saw it was a bad VOW - I broke it.
I stayed on the WOW field afraid to break a VOW when I needed to go home for my Dad.
ETC....
My responsibility would be to exam my words before I speak them, but in the balance of that, I am not bound by all I have spoken as I have a loving forgiving God. And some vows were not suppose to be made... So, we recognize the mistake, or the circumstances around the vow -- or the changed circumstances and go from there... By giving value to the NT and the commands there. GOD MUST HAVE SEEN we could not keep the law -- because he gave his only begotten son...
Matthew 22:36-40.
'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul
and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
With TWI I SAW that I could not Love the Lord the way it is stated above and carry out the requests of TWI
With pizza - maybe I should say "I will try...."
And with the tithe - not make declarations I may not always keep...
The WOW field - I should have taken care of my home responsibilities and never let people USE this VOW thing to make me do what they wanted me to do - rather than follow my godly heart and what I felt God wanted me to do...
Part is my BAD
And the other well, I do not think God is as rigid on us as we are on ourselves sometimes.
Can you break a VOW?
It depends...
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waysider
Dot
Quit beating yourself up trying to equate OT vows with modern day "promises".
They're not the same thing.I took a salt covenant the first time I got married. It was basically one of those "any two believers-------"kind of arrangements.It didn't work out. It no longer matters to me why it didn't. I'm just glad we didn't stay together simply because we went through the motions of a ritual that holds a different meaning today than it did in the OT. Maybe she's even on GreaseSpot. I don't know. It doesn't matter. I have no animosity toward her. I hope she has none toward me. I'm glad now that we went our separate ways. It was the best thing for both of us. Hang in there, Dot. Don't try to solve too many puzzles at one time. It's too stressful. Just work on the day-to-day stuff for now. That's my two cents. Probably over priced at that.
Love ya
waysider
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socks
Dot, the OT laws, codes - often attempt to cover a lot of ground morally - do thus and such, but if such and so occurs, do this. Unless there's this or that in which case do this.
Jesus interpreted that the greatest, first commandment of OT law was to love and place God first He confirms that and a second one, "like" it, to love others as you love yourself. In these "hang" all the other laws.
He also taught not to make vows - in the sense that the integrity of what we do shouldn't require a contract or vow, but we should simply do what we say or promise to do and that's that.
On the other hand - compare that to the incident where a man comes to Jesus and asks him to settle a matter of an inheritance within a family and how it was being divided. Jesus responded "who made me a judge over you?"
That little reference has always intrigued me - that Jesus wouldn't get wrapped up in a legal dispute amongst siblings, but worked with full authority in spiritual laws.
I can see your questions and thoughts are the same kinds we all deal with and mankind has always dealt with. Whether we apply specific codes to them or broader codes, we have to work with them and try to come to the "best" decisions and outcomes that we can, given the circumstances. Like Solomon with the women and the baby - wisdom is where we find it and it can flow from the basic core values we hold. But we shouldn't always try for a cut-paste answer, based on verses that we try to obey. The verses in these sections you quoted can give direction for our own decisions and "justice" but will require work to get there.
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jeast
Ephesians 3:2 NIV. Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you.
Would this not be applicable?
Was the overall purpose of the law and commandments to bring us to the realization that we indeed needed a Savior?
Galatians 5:4 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
"The law was death unto me"
"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."
"None righteous no not one."
"Who shall deliver me from this body of sin and death."
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wrdsandwrks
Dot,
From what I know of your situation, these versus from Corinthians would be applicable:
From what I've seen, you did everything you knew to do to hold up your end of the marriage vow. He chose to leave. So according to the New Testatment, you're not under any obligation. God wants you to have peace.
I'm sure it's not easy, but don't beat yourself up over broken vows. You didn't break it.
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Dot Matrix
Thanks all
But I am not really speaking of my situation although it is fuel.
I have a friend who is in a bad marriage and this friend asked me how to get out with the blessing of God.
This friend does not believe the committment made had God anywhere in it....so why is the friend bound to keep it?
This had me thinking of VOWS in general.
TWI with the WOW field and the CORPS made it seem as though bad things would happened to us if we BROKE our vow --
Sure there was no membership -- Just this heavy misunderstanding of a VOW to keep us locked in place
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cman
Dot,
You worded your first post very well, looking for answers to a common question about that verse and general principal of making a vow or commitment.
I didn't see any personal agenda other then wanting to know more.
As one thing becomes clear many others will follow.
God loves. He will not punish as man thinks of punishment or judgment.
This love is bigger then anything and it is ours.
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JeffSjo
Hi Dot,
I'm sorry to hear of your troubles, and I'm sorry to hear of your friend. I don't know any specifics of your friends distress but it doesn't sound like a good situation.
I'd like to hear what you think after reading what Paul's councel concerning marriage in 1st Corinthians is. Here he handles these things at times saying what the commandments of the Lord are, and at times simply giving advice that's good advice but he's sensitive to the fact that these things at times will be hard to bear.
I've gone to this along with desiring to believe the things in the gospels are the best things I can aspire to in marriage.
I hope this helps, but not knowing your friends distress and the big picture of her marriage like a friend would makes it hard for me to say more.
(added in editing)
This may not need to be a concern for you but I just have to say it just in case Dot. I hope that your friends situation doesn't get to be too much for you to handle as far as ministering to her goes.
If you think that you might be getting in over your head do you have good friends to reach out to yourself Dot?
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JeffSjo
Hi again Dot and God Bless you,
I've been thinking about my last posting and it seems to me that it's a lot like my first answer to you in your lawn care thread. I said that I needed more info to give you good advise then too.
This time it's not just a lawn care question and what I see in the situation is that it's not just you in the situation this time, but your friend and her (if I understand you right anyway) and her husband too. I don't know them at all either. And I don't want to give you any well intended but bad advise, the stakes are too high.
I just hope that your own recent experiences don't color your advice to her in any way.
Marriages are suppose to stay together and I generally look for how to make that happen, but if it's dangerous for her I'd want her out of there until the whole situation can be dealt with properly.
It seems to me that there are a lot of potential pitfalls for you in this situation.
PLEASE TAKE CARE DOT.
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Dot Matrix
They cannot stand each other and in 29 years they only had sex half a dozen times...
They are miserable.
IF they want out, I do not think they should stay together bcause they made a promise to each other --- of which the core is empy and missing.
The point is in more general terms - where I wanted to keep this so it applies where it applies to whomever it applies --- bad vows, before God, do not have to be kept in order for God to love you
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jeast
My sister was married to her husband for I believe 52 years.
He was brutal. Constantly humiliated her (called her a scroungy b*tch in a most loving way).
I personally witnessed him slapping the crap out of her. I lived with them for six years and I was to small to do anything about it.
Here is the point! He died of heart failure about 2 years ago and left her with nothing.
But she stayed with him all this time and to this day will defend and make excuses for him.
Totally insane! She is now 70 years old and knows no other way but the way he treated her.
She has trouble functioning without drinking because she don't have him to tell her what to do.
No doubt she loved him, and I will have to admit I loved him to.
But I absolutely do not respect him and I believe that in a case like this the vow was null and void because he did not keep his end of the bargain.
Not only did he cause her to suffer but the whole family was affected.
So from the perspective of someone who witnessed my sister keep her vow under the most cruel circumstances my opinion is acknowledge that you love them but
never allow yourself to be treated with disrespect. Get away from the situation if not for your sake for those who love you.
This may be an extreme example but the principles are still the same.
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JeffSjo
Dear Dot,
My recent experiences are like fuel to me on this topic too. In my situation I was painted as the bad guy even though that with the problems I had in my younger years my wife admitted often that I was improving constantly in the areas of my life that were scarred in my youth. I was never, ever violent but there is plenty of things that I failed in still.
For my wife's part she never came to terms with the state of her life when we met either and forgot the good things of our earlier years together.
Now we get to the place where in our small splinter group the considered me disorderly, I consider them to be virtually unfixable in biblical terms. My wife took to the minister as her man. Not in a sexual way, but in terms of owner and father. For years I stayed in this situation for the churche's and my marriage's sake. Often we lived with other people and things were smooth in the living situation, we worked it out.
If I was such a throw away scum bag as they would have everyone believe then why wasn't there ever a problem with any of the many couples we lived with? The answer is simple, I am not the bad guy, but the "apostle" so to speak had still made me a marked man.
I believe that it was all too easy to get my wife to believe their twisted position on many things, and they certainly didn't help me try to make my marriage better, they even told her she didn't have to discuss our past together with me.
My wife left and the church kicked me out.
If anything I'm going to be careful to prove any notions of a "bad vow" because by that same opinion my life was wrecked deliberately.
I think that even if someone holds to the scripture on these things that a marriage is worth having good councel, a lot of fighting for, and someone who is capable of helping them with a lot of sweat and tears before giving up.
If the situation is like the one that Jeast is talking about it's another matter altogether. But I'm not going to judge anyone without being close to the situation and fully informed. There are lives at stake.
(added in editing)
PLEASE TAKE CARE DOT
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jeast
Sorry if I came across a little harsh but when I get the slightest impression someone is getting abused it flips my switch.
JeffSjo's post caused me to pause and remember.
My wife and I got married very young and had a little girl before we were 18.
I this case I was the stupid jerk. I would find excuses to stay out late so I did not have to buck up and act like a father and a husband.
I cannot explain how humbling it feels to have someone be so faithful and loving knowing you don't deserve it.
Her parents never did interfere and if they did it may have worked out differently. I don't think she would have listened to them anyway.
A lot of folks like to hack on the Word but IMHO that is what turned my sorry a** around. Somehow the verse "Husbands love your wives and give your life for them like Christ did the church" meant something to me.
We have been married 38 years now and have 4 wonderful kids and 11 grandkids. I try my best to never take my marriage for granted anymore and to consciously do the things that strengthens our relationship. Even if sometimes I don't particularly feel like it because it is no longer just about me.
She could have easily and justifiably cut and run but in this case it worked out. I believe I have learned my lesson and for the last 35 years I have done my best to never make that same mistake again.
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brideofjc
I'm adding an article on vows and oaths from the Dictionary of Biblical Imagery.
Vows and oaths evoke the idea of a serious setting, such as a court of law (oath) or a wedding ceremony (vow). That the wedding vow is actually an oath betrays a widespread blurring of the distinction between oaths and vows in the Hebrew Bible. An oath is an abbreviated covenant (Gen 26:28), a promise between two or more persons in which the name of a deity is invoked as witness and and guarantor. The oath is normally represented by the act of "swearing" (making a solemn promise) or by placing oneself (Mk 14:71). By contrast, a vow is a solemn promise made by a person to his or her deity. The vow normally includes an oath formula, but its direction is vertical, not horizontal like the oath. Whereas oaths are between persons, the vow is directed toward God. It always takes place within the context of prayer since it is always addressed to God. Vows are normally made in times of distress, and the supplicant's gift is often contingent upon the granting of his petition (Judg 11:30; 1 Sam 14:24)
The serious nature of all promises and conduct before God is reflected in the taking of oaths and vows. Acdcording to Mosaic law, the Lord's name was not to be taken lightly in the swearing of oaths (Ex 20:7; Deut 5:11). Yahweh would personally punish the swearer of such a false oath. sin is not determined by whether a person vows or not. Rather, once uttered, a vow is as binding as an oath (Deut 23:21-23) and should therefore not be made carelessly (Prov 20:25).
Truthfulness as the paragon of all speech is reflected in God's binding of himself by an oath (Heb 6:13-18 cf. Jer 22:5) and by the fact that Christ is the guarantor of all the OT promises. Jesus taught that oaths were binding (Mt 5:33) and that the Christian's daily conversation is considered as sacred as oaths. If, as the obedience of God's kingdom mandates, deeds correspond to words, then oaths will be unneccessary (Mt 5:34-37; Col 3:17; Jas 1:22; 5:12; 1 Jn 3:18).
Since my words are not excathedra, yet I want my words to be utilized with caution. Americans are not used to such vow taking (at least not in the last 75 years) as those that lived in the Eastern countries. I do believe that words are very powerful weapons of warfare either with blessings or cursings et al. I also think that if two people stand before the Lord God and vow before HIM to be in marriage, it should be honored to the level that it can be honored. In the first place, we are not living in an Eastern culture, where abuse of women is considered completely normal. We have laws against it, albeit, 150+ or so years ago, even America had this "law" called "rule of thumb" whereby a man was allowed to beat his wife with a rod or stick as long as it didn't exceed the thickness of his thumb. In Britain, it actually was included in the Court of Common Pleas, but I'm not sure if in America it was a carry over from Britain or if it actually was a law on the official books. Since we do not live in such a culture, I would say that if one of the partners were being physically abused, I would say "get out" and if the abused partner thought they wanted to try and save the marriage, I would say go ahead, but just don't live together until enough counseling was sought and definite improvements had been made. If the partners are Christian, I think they should work it out if at all possible because the Lord Jesus was very specific on his stance against divorce. If the marriage was made at too young of an age, there could be exceptions and especially if they were not Christians. If one is a Christian and the unbeliever departs, then there is not guilt or shame and there isn't any transgression on the books. If however, BOTH considered themselves to be Christian and someone wants to leave just so that they can have new adventures with new and exciting people, I would read very carefully what the Lord Jesus has to say about marriage vows. I think the whole point of vow taking is for the person to learn how to keep their word no matter what and to be careful about what you utter. Perhaps this is why the Word states "Let your words be few."If however, your vow was made in ignorance concerning the situation, such as TWI, the vows were broken by them first, in that they didn't fulfill their end of the vow and I would say it would release you from your end. I do not think any situation can have just a quick diagnosis made, but it should be sought diligently in prayer before rushing into anything that either party may regret later.
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Dot Matrix
Jeff-
Then, your case would be an it depends - it seems as though your wife's vow or committment to TWI was bigger than her vow to you -- most unfortunate
Jest - I hear you loud and clear. What a waste of a life to be abused forever - and never know what it is like to be loved and cherished
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JeffSjo
Dear Dot,
I'm not sure that we do not understand each other already, but I'd like to be clear in anycase for everybodie's good.
I'm not willing to state that "it depends" is my stand, but maybe you and I don't think the same about "depends on what."
I think that it's clear scripturally that God intended marriage to be a lifelong bond. But in 1st Corinthians even though Paul makes it clear that the Lord's commandment is for the wife to not leave the husband he gives guidance for how she should live if she does leave her husband. So in my little pea-brain it would be follie for anyone to decide wrongly that a particular marriage vow was ungodly unless they had such a rock-solid case that it would be easy to be understood.
But even though the commandmant is clear, there is advice given on how to conduct ourselves if for whatever reason we should NEED to fall short of the commandment. I see grace and mercy, not heavy handed legalism.
My experiences were not in TWI, but in a small splinter group with which I've been fellowshipping with until my expulsion since 1989 or so. When I read about how TWI ruined so many marriages here on this site I'm certain that my little group's high handed and twisted approach to my marriage at the very least was "birthed" in TWI leadership meetings as they were either fooled into or deliberately wicked in determining which spouse was to end up being thrown out like so much garbage.
I believe if your friend is seeking the will of God for her life that it's a much bigger task than you alone might be able to help her with, especially because of your recent divorce experiences. I just don't want any "snap judgements" made by you that may be unduly influenced by your recent experiences Dot!
At the very least I hope that your friend would find a Godly, and experienced marriage counceller of some kind that is capable of helping your friend and her husband for real. I'm not saying you can't help your friend either Dot, I'm just concerned that you don't councel anything to her that you'll regret later.
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Dot Matrix
Once again, it is NOT an influence. BTW, he divorced me - I fought FOR the marriage.
Again, I am speaking in general terms - if anyone chooses to bring up THEIR life then please do. I brought up my friend, as the LAST time people were talking about me and my situation, and I wasn't. I am talking about vows and if they can be broken. Even if not just my ONE friend.... all people everywhere stuck in misery because the respect a "vow" made even though it was a bad promise -- do not have to stay in the situation IMO
Thank you for your input and opinion about my situation, and about my ability to offer advice and about my broken vows----
I guess I should never ask a question or bring up a topic again as it seems to go back to specific things about me --- the likes of which I did not bring up. But thanks for keeping right in front of my face....
Would you stay with a murderer or does that depend? Or in your clear-cut grasp of scripture would you assume there was no way out? I feel MY God is a loving God and does NOT want anyone in a BAD or dangerous situation -- so it would depend.
I feel my God would not expect my friend to stay in a sexless marriage being as the Bible is clear about not holding back to your spouse --
BTW, my friend is male.
I believe God does not want anyone to stay unevenly yoked to an alcoholic who frivolously spends all the bill money on booze and beats his wife...
So, rather than attempt to go through every reason one should leave, or reasons not bad enough, - so one should stay - I said "It depends" I think most people can figure it out for themselves.
I am TRULY sorry you were hurt and DEEMED the bad guy. It sounds like you got the raw end of the deal. It sounds like creepy people ruined your marriage.
SO, IN YOUR CASE, then you can think the vows should have been kept. I do not think marriage is entered into lightly and I do think God hates divorce --- but again....
Independent of my personal situation
Independent of your personal situation
Independent of my friend's personal situation
In general, I do not think anyone should HAVE to keep all promises when the circumstances change --- not all vows need to be kept always. EXCEPT the command to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength and your neighbor as yourself.
I was in the Way corps. I told the world I would never leave. Well, that which I committed myself to was no longer about serving GOD - so I left. I do not think I should have stayed....
A friend of mines' mom was beaten to a pulp almost daily. What was her vow to do? Live a life in danger, in upheaval and harm? My God would not do that or have expected her to stay.
It depends... Supposing most people reading are not having a cult or off-shoot cult make their decisions for them any more, it depends. For those STILL in the cult YOU can get out – even if you swore you would never leave—you can break that promise.
You can get out.
It depends...
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bowtwi
I think God has called us to peace and would not have u to be ignorant. I think He loves us with a deep and unending love. I think He wants us to prosper and be in health even as our souls prosper. I think God is perfect and He changes not.
I think that until Christ returns men (and women) will continue to do our best sometimes and sometimes we won't. I think God knows that too.
I had a real tough time deciding to divorce my ex-husband because I had vowed a vow before God and I was seriously committed to that vow. If divorce was sin, as lcm shouted as he looked me right in the eye as I pondered this decision, then God must not have called me to peace. Maybe I could continue to stay in a marriage that had changed significantly over 14 years, such that I believe would have eventually prevented me from growing any further with God, or I could be honest and face the fact that the marriage was over. My ex was doing things that seriously hindered my growth and safety. He was committed to continuing those things.
It came down to a choice between 2 equally scary possibilities: I could stay married and miserable or I could divorce and have a shot at the life I believed God called me to. It's been over 15 years now and I've never married again, as I've never trusted another individual with my heart to the degree marriage would require. I don't expect I ever will. I think to marry again without that level of trust would be sin.
My bottom line is I don't think God is nearly as black and white a thinker as twi said He is. I've been a parent for almost 30 years now and I love my kids more than that - surely God loves us more than I love my kids!
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Dot Matrix
Good post Bow
IMO
It is like the verse that tells us to obey our parents in the Lord....
Well, what about that group right now with the kids being passed to old men and relatives--- they claim to be "in the lord"
Seems to me that are pedaphiles --- so does one vow a vow to do the word of God then STAY there once they realize God is not in that group?
I think using your brain is expected by God. Using your "heart" perhaps a requirement to understand the Bible. Just sticking to something which maybe harmful would not be the will of the Lord... IMO
Then, of course, it begs the question WHO SAYS IT IS HARMFUL?
The government? Thank God they are suppose to stay seperate. The leaders? What if it is a group that is sour?
Seems to me we are all responsible for a journey with God. Sometimes you can go to a person of the Lord and seek advice, but some people are NOT of the Lord who claim to be...
Where does that leave us? Responsible for our journey with God.... IMO
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Dot Matrix
BTW
My friend's wife left him today. I do not think he needs to feel bad.....
Just thought I would mention it...
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JeffSjo
I'm sorry Dot if what I shared with you seems to come up short of hitting the mark in any way.
I'm not assuming that you cannot keep your situation out of your friend's life in terms of being clear. But as I don't know you very well, all I can say is that I recognize that my own heartbreaking situation has a big pull on my own advice and I want you to not fall into the same trap that this topic makes a real concern for me.
I'm certain that in any case where a spouse is in danger that no one needs to feel bad about HAVING to leave a marriage.
I'm certain that a believer does not have to feel bad if the other spouse abandons their wedding vows and/or promises.
Dear Dot,
Having said these things to each other, I'm more comfortable saying "It depends."
PEACE
P.S.
I'm real sorry if my concerns seem to unduly put you down, that is not my intent.
(edited for grammar)
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Dot Matrix
Thank you
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