A question for you though....why do you list Acts first before Luke....just curious.
I didn't have a reason. It just came out that way. I don't see the order in which I posted them to have any effect on my overall point. They both speak to the same thing, the writing of the gospel of Luke, and then in acts an intro to the days following the end of Luke.
It doesn't mean that revelation wasn't happening.
True, there is always that. Not a verifiable claim, but I can't disprove that possibility anymore than I can disprover whether there is or is not a God or gods. It is a statement of faith, not fact. I think the first step in accepting that sort of claim though is looking at other verifiable elements of the overall picture. That involves looking at the historicity of the books, characters, and authors of the NT, bible or any other book of faith, IMO. Otherwise, we are making an even bigger leap of faith.
On the other hand, maybe the size of that leap, what we are leaping over and through and from and to, doesn't matter so much (again I point to the Mormon Church, or scientology for that matter). Maybe historical cohesiveness and authenticity isn't that important. Why can't God or aliens "inspire" or "move" or "work in" a sci-fi writer? Who better to describe the supernatural? Why can't a guy find gold tables and translating glasses? Who's to say I won't at some point find the same things in my box of Lucky Charms? Not you! It's another unverifiable possibility that either sits well with us or it doesn't. It either strikes us as "scripture" or it doesn't. Either way we are first and foremost taking the writer's word for it and then determining our faith concerning it second.
It seems that most people don't want to just make a blind leap into the darkness of faith without being harnessed to something connected to reality, be it history or science or personal experience or a book. Otherwise, there is nothing there to differentiate it from the rest of the infinite possibilities. A light in total darkened emptiness doesn't illuminate anything. There needs to be something there to absorb and reflect it.
First, Lindy, I love what you said, "A light in total darkened emptiness doesn't illuminate anything. There needs to be something there to absorb and reflect it." Gonna think about that one for while. Sometimes your writing is very poetic...
Anyhow, getting back to the first question about how "scripture" was taught in twi to mean the Bible (KJV canon) Here's just a bit of info about where this idea came from: that the scriptures, i.e. the Bible, is The Word of God and the "only rule of faith and practice" (as pointed out by a post in this thread by DontWorryBeHappy) .
I realize vpw credited Rosalind Rinker as the person who influenced him to believe this, but this idea has a long history starting pretty much with Luther's 95 thesis, the first item on his list pitted the authority of the Bible against tradition found in the Catholic Church [not a bad idea, but he became extreme about it IMO]. Some of you may know how vpw loved Luther. Luther claimed that no church tradition could claim divine sanction unless it was supported by scripture. So he decided scripture (which version? which translation?) was the only godly authority over our lives. This set in motion a wild chain of events...
"In his public debate in Leipzig with Johann Eck, theology professor at Ingolstadt (1519), Luther made his controversial new doctrine sola scripture ('scripture alone') explicit for the first time. How could Luther understand the Bible, Eck asked, without the popes, councils and universities? Luther replied: 'A simple layman armed with scripture is to be believed above a pople or council without it.' This was an unprecendented claim. Jews and Christians had always upheld the sacred importance of inherited tradition." The Bible - A Biography by Karen Armstrong, pg. 165.
IMO, its good idea to question tradition; however, this stance, because of ignorance of so many things about the Bible, has led to all the conflicting interpretations, sects, denominations, and yes - cults - in the world, and caused monstrous bloodshed, bigotry, mark and avoid tactics, hateful speech, bad behavior, etc. you name it, promulgated by people who believe they are "right" in their interpretation and application of scripture in our modern world.
Read about Luther and his life; you may begin to question his ideas, ideas which some of us inherited from twi.
I've cited Armstrong's work here before. But any history of the Bible could provide this same information. What I like about her book is that it is so concise . It's a very easy read. Read a few pages on your lunch hour.
It is only 229 pages. The are extensive notes with other works cited that you can read, too, if you're interested.
Publishers Weekly wrote: "...Armstrong not only describes how, when, and by whom the Bible was written, she also examines some two thousand years of biblical interpretation by rabbis and bishops, scholars and mystics, pietists and critics, thus opening up a myriad of exegetical [exegesis is the interpretation and understanding of a text on the basis of the text itself] approaches and dispelling any fundamentalist notion that only one view can be correct."
Also, Wide as the Waters - the History of the English Bible and the Revolution it Inspired by historian Benson Bobrick is great. It blew my mind! I saw how some of us have not only repeated the gross mistakes of others because of our ignorance but also out of our deliberate narrow-mindedness.
I'm on a campaign (can you tell ) to stamp out ignorance of the history of this text. It has influenced our lives in such profound ways - some good, some bad. The Golden Rule, as many have suggested, can help us get past old forms of narrow thinking about how we treat others; that "rule" may be the only hope we have of surviving in this crazy world.
Once outside the strict KJV, it seems all other texts are helpful. Also, for me at least, the line between secular and "spiritual" writings is a little difficult to discern. It should all be historically accurate, though Paul (or whoever wrote some of his stuff) was supposedly revealing "God's Will".
pericope to the body of letters that later became 1 Corinthians.
In this scenario this would have been done in part to lend further authority to a later (or more culturally acceptable) teaching that marginalized women.
, who wrote that Paul was the "first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus"
I wonder what forces were at work over the centuries to bend "the scriptures" to a more acceptable meaning. We see that in "research ministry" TWI, despite direct and obvious scripture to the opposite, adultery became acceptable. If vp was king, what would his Bible say?
And even if we had the originals of Paul, what was that really? Who died and made him God ... so to speak Jesus died (and rose, we presume), but how do we know he (or God) made Paul anyone special?
You can see why it was easier for VP to make it all God's Word. We accepted so much on blind faith. Even for people that don't think the Bible is very accurate, it seems the history of how we got our current versions would be interesting.
For me, other history, like our geological history, make the OT scripture questionable. The great flood and age of the earth are apparent contradicitons that piffle does not explain. Mankind beginning with the first Adam and eve from his rib ... ummm ....
True, there is always that. Not a verifiable claim, but I can't disprove that possibility anymore than I can disprover whether there is or is not a God or gods. It is a statement of faith, not fact. I think the first step in accepting that sort of claim though is looking at other verifiable elements of the overall picture. That involves looking at the historicity of the books, characters, and authors of the NT, bible or any other book of faith, IMO. Otherwise, we are making an even bigger leap of faith.
On the other hand, maybe the size of that leap, what we are leaping over and through and from and to, doesn't matter so much (again I point to the Mormon Church, or scientology for that matter). Maybe historical cohesiveness and authenticity isn't that important. Why can't God or aliens "inspire" or "move" or "work in" a sci-fi writer? Who better to describe the supernatural? Why can't a guy find gold tables and translating glasses? Who's to say I won't at some point find the same things in my box of Lucky Charms? Not you! It's another unverifiable possibility that either sits well with us or it doesn't. It either strikes us as "scripture" or it doesn't. Either way we are first and foremost taking the writer's word for it and then determining our faith concerning it second.
It seems that most people don't want to just make a blind leap into the darkness of faith without being harnessed to something connected to reality, be it history or science or personal experience or a book. Otherwise, there is nothing there to differentiate it from the rest of the infinite possibilities. A light in total darkened emptiness doesn't illuminate anything. There needs to be something there to absorb and reflect it.
Well, at least IMB, textual criticism aimed at determining to the best degree the historicity and authenticity of the authorship is a high priority. I would hate to think that I placed my faith in a work that was penned last week, aged with chemicals and fobbed off as bearing marks of antiquity. Sure it is possible to find gold tablets, they found stone tablets of many ancient works outside of Christianity...however....?translating glasses?....that's pushing it too far....because that would border on the claims that P.T Barnum made (I think), "There's a sucker born every minute!" If one is filled with the Holy Spirit, one doesn't have to take any writer's word for it, but can be instructed by the author Himself. While Matthew, Mark et al may have been penned by those names, the true author is the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY.
You are harnessed to something connected to reality when you step off that cliff of believing...God's hand will be right there to hold you up. A light that mankind shines into total darkened emptiness may be true to what you have just said....but when God shines His light into the total darkened emptiness of mankind's heart, it does bring light and it enlightens where one would not think that anything could reach it.
Just one comment [and I know it's not popular] and I give it with respect, as I trust my viewpoint will be respected, about the following belief which brideofjc shared:
"While Matthew, Mark et al may have been penned by those names, the true author is the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY"
Although for years I would have agreed with you, my quest for understanding of this book called the Bible has led me to the place of questioning this assumption. Many people have various understandings about what or who God is [even in the O.T. different names were used and some say they refer to different "gods"]. For me, this affects the idea of an "authorship" by God of the Bible.
Surely, many of these scriptures were and are considered sacred to some people, obviously. There are also many other "scriptures" belonging to other cultures that are sacred to them, too. Where is the "right" one, which is the "right" God? I have honestly asked myself this question for the past 20 years since leaving twi and I can say it's not easy to even present it here because of the "heretical" stigma it carries. But some of us really, deeply are concerned about this subject and the implications of it we see in the world around us. I welcome conversation about it.
IMO, humankind has tried to relate to the unseen power around it since developing consciousness and has come up with various ways. May I be so bold as to suggest reading something like A History of God for further enlightenment for those interested?
From what I know, when monotheism developed, it ruled out other ideas of God, at least this seems to have happened in the area of the world we know of as the Near East today. Monotheism is one way of relating to the creative universe. There are other ways, too, just as good and productive, and creative and loving...
just a few thoughts...now I need to get back to yard work...how mundane... <_<
Just one comment [and I know it's not popular] and I give it with respect, as I trust my viewpoint will be respected, about the following belief which brideofjc shared:
"While Matthew, Mark et al may have been penned by those names, the true author is the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY"
Although for years I would have agreed with you, my quest for understanding of this book called the Bible has led me to the place of questioning this assumption. Many people have various understandings about what or who God is [even in the O.T. different names were used and some say they refer to different "gods"]. For me, this affects the idea of an "authorship" by God of the Bible.
Surely, many of these scriptures were and are considered sacred to some people, obviously. There are also many other "scriptures" belonging to other cultures that are sacred to them, too. Where is the "right" one, which is the "right" God? I have honestly asked myself this question for the past 20 years since leaving twi and I can say it's not easy to even present it here because of the "heretical" stigma it carries. But some of us really, deeply are concerned about this subject and the implications of it we see in the world around us. I welcome conversation about it.
IMO, humankind has tried to relate to the unseen power around it since developing consciousness and has come up with various ways. May I be so bold as to suggest reading something like A History of God for further enlightenment for those interested?
From what I know, when monotheism developed, it ruled out other ideas of God, at least this seems to have happened in the area of the world we know of as the Near East today. Monotheism is one way of relating to the creative universe. There are other ways, too, just as good and productive, and creative and loving...
just a few thoughts...now I need to get back to yard work...how mundane... <_<
You say that is an "assumption" that the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY had this particular collection of writings drawn together and has managed to preserve it for thousands of years, yet, perhaps its not the "right" God, because after all, other cultures have writings that they believe to be their form of "scriptures." Ok, there are a lot of civilizations that had these things and yet the people have perished and while parts of their sacred writings may have survived, yet they didn't. So where was their God? Elijah confronted such cultures in his day and asked them questions such as "where is your god? Perhaps he is asleep or gone on vacation for a while, maybe he didn't hear you?" You also write that for the last 20 years you have questioned, but I would ask you from what point did you jump off into the sea of questioning? Were you born again? SIT? Prophesy? Learned in the Scriptures outside of twi? Did you ever perceive the voice of the Lord through His Holy Spirit? Or at the very least think that you did? I do not know from what premise you leaped. Nor your experiences or training while in twi, or how you left it, etc. Of course, I can only speak for myself...but I have experienced a deep relationship with the Lord and His Holy Spirit has been "in rez" :) for many years, and with this being so, do also know (current) how He leads and gives "inspiration"; therefore, knowing how these "men of God" received the Word of God in their spirits and so wrote it down, which we now call Scriptures.
I would also recommend a book (a mere 915 pages)God's Empowering Presence: The Holy Spirit in the Letters of Paul by Godon D. Fee.
Surely, many of these scriptures were and are considered sacred to some people, obviously. There are also many other "scriptures" belonging to other cultures that are sacred to them, too. Where is the "right" one, which is the "right" God? I have honestly asked myself this question for the past 20 years since leaving twi and I can say it's not easy to even present it here because of the "heretical" stigma it carries. But some of us really, deeply are concerned about this subject and the implications of it we see in the world around us. I welcome conversation about it.
me too
thanks again for the thread
having recently spent a few years working, practicing and studying as an artist with a large interfaith group of monks, nuns, rabbis, ministers, pastors, counselors, chaplains, psychologists, doctors, nurses, educators, elders, administrators, authors, artists, musicians, yada yada...
...i have to agree with the concern penworks is pointing towards
and add my opinion...
...that functional effective interfaith and interdisciplinary dialogue is urgently needed in the world today
as sadly, it seems much of all world scripture was penned for purposes quite divorced from most all of our contemporary mainstream interpretations and applications
medicine and science and art and religion can co-exist...ive seen it
and ive seen the waves in history of it happening before...peacemaking, advocating, mediating, reconciling...etc...
but it seems our attention spans have become way shorter than those of the sacred scripture writers, for one thing
and even our hi-tech contemporary english seems to too rushed, private, tribal and/or fragmented to get us anywhere near anything resembling the great eras and revolutions in discourse
even the pre-modern mentallity of violent terrorism (whether islamic, christian, buddhist, atheist...)
uses the same flat post-modern language to justify those kinds of violent distorted applications of sacred scripture
hard to blame anyone for rejecting any opinions associated with entire canons of books and the long long histories around them
if all one has ever seen are such rotten examples...and a narrow sliver of even their own lineage
and as if in reaction to generations and histories of mostly disfunctional models and methods of "doing religion"
we reject anything related to religious history that requires discipline, practice, ritual, structure
so we miss most of the time-tested lineages of effective spiritual thought and practices...
...often simply by not wanting to look
we need some sort of renaissance of the tongue
and perhaps as a way to the heart it is connected to
Ok, there are a lot of civilizations that had these things and yet the people have perished and while parts of their sacred writings may have survived, yet they didn't.
How about the Hindu culture in India? Both the religion, the writings and the people survived.
So where was their God? Elijah confronted such cultures in his day and asked them questions such as "where is your god? Perhaps he is asleep or gone on vacation for a while, maybe he didn't hear you?"
So where is the God of Elijah today? According to the story, it was kind of a showdown between Elijah, the representative of Yahweh, and the priests of Baal, or maybe directly between Yahweh and Baal. Yahweh won hands down, according to the story. There's also a story inscribed on a stone pillar (can't remember its name, it is in the Companion Bible though) about the god of one of Moab being credited with winning a battle over Yahweh because Moab kicked the stuffing out of Israel. And if this kind of showdown that Elijah is said to have engaged in is so effective, why doesn't it happen today?
having recently spent a few years working, practicing and studying as an artist with a large interfaith group of monks, nuns, rabbis, ministers, pastors, counselors, chaplains, psychologists, doctors, nurses, educators, elders, administrators, authors, artists, musicians, yada yada...
...i have to agree with the concern penworks is pointing towards
and add my opinion...
...that functional effective interfaith and interdisciplinary dialogue is urgently needed in the world today
as sadly, it seems much of all world scripture was penned for purposes quite divorced from most all of our contemporary mainstream interpretations and applications
medicine and science and art and religion can co-exist...ive seen it
and ive seen the waves in history of it happening before...peacemaking, advocating, mediating, reconciling...etc...
What's this? One world religion? No, thanks. Sounds anti-Christ to me!
but it seems our attention spans have become way shorter than those of the sacred scripture writers, for one thing
and even our hi-tech contemporary english seems to too rushed, private, tribal and/or fragmented to get us anywhere near anything resembling the great eras and revolutions in discourse
TV, PC's, video games anyone? Try turning it all off and just meditating on the Word of God....start in Psalms and just read them out loud to the Holy Father.
even the pre-modern mentallity of violent terrorism (whether islamic, christian, buddhist, atheist...)
uses the same flat post-modern language to justify those kinds of violent distorted applications of sacred scripture
hard to blame anyone for rejecting any opinions associated with entire canons of books and the long long histories around them
if all one has ever seen are such rotten examples...and a narrow sliver of even their own lineage
and as if in reaction to generations and histories of mostly disfunctional models and methods of "doing religion"
we reject anything related to religious history that requires discipline, practice, ritual, structure
so we miss most of the time-tested lineages of effective spiritual thought and practices...
...often simply by not wanting to look
Rejecting the Word of God because of other people's examples in the past is just an excuse for avoiding the contact between God and self.
we need some sort of renaissance of the tongue
and perhaps as a way to the heart it is connected to
Yes, let there be silence before the Lord God Almighty and wait upon Him, seek Him early in the morning and praise Him, and He will lead you to where He wants you to be.
How about the Hindu culture in India? Both the religion, the writings and the people survived.
So where is the God of Elijah today? According to the story, it was kind of a showdown between Elijah, the representative of Yahweh, and the priests of Baal, or maybe directly between Yahweh and Baal. Yahweh won hands down, according to the story. There's also a story inscribed on a stone pillar (can't remember its name, it is in the Companion Bible though) about the god of one of Moab being credited with winning a battle over Yahweh because Moab kicked the stuffing out of Israel. And if this kind of showdown that Elijah is said to have engaged in is so effective, why doesn't it happen today?
Yes, Hinduism does, but Christianity has been making some strong inroads in that nation for some time now and the Christian population is growing. Who knows, maybe in yours or my lifetime, Hinduism may fall to the ground, even as Dagon fell and the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY saw to it that both the false god's head and hands were broken off. I think it says it all. Can't think or do anything.
Why doesn't it happen today, you say? I think it does, it just doesn't get the press. Perhaps not as grand as Elijah...but I know a person had challenged me verbally on something pertaining to Christianity (I can't recall the words now), but one of the promises that God has made, is that if you serve HIM with all your heart, HE will not let your words drop to the ground, but will perform them. Anyway, the person thought they had caught me in an error regarding what I had previously said....and it gave me pause....wondering just exactly what I had said at some prior time to cause this person to now be thinking..."Aha! got her now! Wriggle out of this one, lady." Then all of a sudden the HS dropped the answer into my spirit and I spoke it forth, and the person was taken aback with his mouth hanging open for a second before he shutup and turned away.
Another instance that happened to me, a woman colleague also did the same, not with Christianity however, but with a decision that had to be made and thought she had cornered me into having to agree with her way, when I knew I was right, but it was a test of wills. Again, she had said that I had to do thus and thus because the courts had ruled on this particular subject (cannot go into detail here because of privacy laws) and I would have to abide by it whether I like it or not. Then the HS dropped the bombshell answer into my spirit and I told her that the person in question would be receiving the decision of the courts because they would have visitation on Saturday, which would end one week and Sunday, which legally is the start of the next week. Therefore, the court rulings would prevail and they indeed would have weekly visitations. Again, open mouth....forced to shutup with no comebacks.
So, yes, it does still happen today. I haven't seen fire fall from heaven yet, but that doesn't mean that I never will.
Well, thanks everyone for taking the time you have with this topic.
Guess all I have left to say is that I vote for the Golden Rule...
as far as a spiritual journey goes, it's clear each of us has a unique path...
peace
Penworks you said:
"Surely, many of these scriptures were and are considered sacred to some people, obviously. There are also many other "scriptures" belonging to other cultures that are sacred to them, too. Where is the "right" one, which is the "right" God? I have honestly asked myself this question for the past 20 years since leaving twi and I can say it's not easy to even present it here because of the "heretical" stigma it carries. But some of us really, deeply are concerned about this subject and the implications of it we see in the world around us. I welcome conversation about it."
Yet now, you are shutting down the conversation. May I ask why? Is it coming too close to home? Let me assure you, there is nothing "heretical" about questioning God, for the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY is not afraid of your questions, Penworks. HE loves to prove HIMSELF true. Please respond to this. Thanks.
i just have to say..that i like the way you described how you use the psalms in prayer
reminds me of how
egyptians
jews
celts
muslims
catholics
protestants
africans
asians
others
have all used those very same psalms the very same way you do over the millenia
in many different languages ...all over the world
Yes, if they are Christian....I would have a hard time believing that a Taoist, Jainist et al, would prefer to read Scriptures that praise a different God than the one that they worship. I could see them discussing the Psalms for their literary value, but not their religious value.
usually by nuns, nurses, caregivers
and other "saints in hell"
im sure you can relate
No, since you will have to clarify your remark "saints in hell," unless you mean the dirt and grime of caring for people that are physically hurting as Mother Theresa did.
i tell ya...the more i see of it all
the more world religious history seems intimately related to world hospital history
I take it then that you must be in the medical field.
where the common ground that was found...whenever it was
was found in a field beyond accurate or correct interpretations of meanings of old stories
Common ground would only exist if it is concerning the same God...otherwise, merely comparing "old stories" becomes nothing more than a 'intellectual romp in the park with all of the rhetorical toys available for playtime.'
discovered by way of the most undeniables, if you will
at times when all else seemed lost
once there
it was hard to object
in any language
if one cared at all
If God is relegated to the halls of antiquity, why would anyone care at all indeed. But the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY lives and breathes today! HE has not changed, neither will HE ever, though people walk by and peer at HIM, refusing to come to HIM until it's too late. Like the saying...."Don't wait to go to church (come to God) until six strong men bring you there!"
How about the Hindu culture in India? Both the religion, the writings and the people survived.
So where is the God of Elijah today? According to the story, it was kind of a showdown between Elijah, the representative of Yahweh, and the priests of Baal, or maybe directly between Yahweh and Baal. Yahweh won hands down, according to the story. There's also a story inscribed on a stone pillar (can't remember its name, it is in the Companion Bible though) about the god of one of Moab being credited with winning a battle over Yahweh because Moab kicked the stuffing out of Israel. And if this kind of showdown that Elijah is said to have engaged in is so effective, why doesn't it happen today?
Maybe,we are not believing for it?Ha ha.
God does,what god does cause he is god,and can do whatever he wants to do.
Somthing about how the foolish confound the wise in this world.
Dueling faith conversations always die quickly. Why?
Well, we are talking about FAITH, that's why. It is a one way stream.
You compare an answer or a comeback coming to you, to a pillar of fire? Well, you compared it at first but then made it sound more like it is a token, your sign, that maybe you will see that pillar of fire consume some heathens some day. Might I add... Nothing like watching men, women, and children consumed by fire from the sky, because they don't pray to the same invisible friend that you do. Nothing really kills a conversation more than crazy talk like that. It's like talking to a bunch of Japanese businessmen and telling them, "I've never seen a giant moth kill a large city of Japs, but that isn't to say I never will." Meanwhile you're wearing an "I *heart* Mothra" t-shirt.
Your examples seem a little like apples and oranges.
You claim the HS dropped these answers into your head. Ok. I think it was the everywhere present, all knowing, invisible, three headed Jack-a-lope, Skeeza. She's the god of quips, wit, smart answers, and good comebacks. Prove me wrong. May tar and feathers fall from heaven on me before I post this if I'm wrong.
I got a call from my brother the other day. You know how I knew it was him? I know his voice, because I have seen him in person and have heard that same voice in person. Its a different story when you hear things from an invisible something in your head. Who am I to say it isn't THE HS and who are you to say it isn't Skeeza? (praise be her name) Since we have never seen this HS in person, heard that voice in person, gave it a big hug, how are we to know WHO that voice is? Maybe you just know. Maybe EVERYONE says that, saint and sinner alike, sane and insane alike. There is no way to TRULY know at this point whether there are invisible things talking to us, much less that yours is right and Makmoud's is wrong, and that is why we call it faith.
One thing is for sure though. This HS you are talking about is key to the conversation, because pretty much everything we know about this "Holy Spirit" (at least by that name) is from NT books, many of which are under question or have been. For some poeple, if Billy Bob wrote Acts, while trying to pass it off as Luke's, then perhaps the content of that book should be questioned a little more. What if Billy Bob wrote it to discount other writings or other "Acts" (there are other books of Acts) and Billy Bob's side had more power, more men, and more money? It just so happens that this sort of thing has happened plenty of times throughout history. Those with the power, money, and forces (usually the same people) control the history written. Who needs fire from heaven when you've had plenty of rulers burning historical and religious books, even books of fiction (those three seem to overlap quite a bit) throughout the ages.
Another point brought up... oral tradition. Ever play "telephone"? Try that for a few decades. The only way we can claim anything has been "preserved" over the centuries is by faith, because we have no clue what the original stories passed down orally, generation to generation, were.
Just in case it's not clear, I have nothing against Christianity, Jesus, the biblical god, faith, miracles, etc. I don't believe that Christianity is demonstrably false or that the biblical god doesn't exist. My points are not made out of disrespect, or to try to prove my view is superior to yours. They're just points to ponder. Lindy's last post sums up a lot of my thinking as well, so I won't take up bandwidth by repeating it all.
God or holy spirit communicates with you...I say "cool"...I'm glad it works for you.
One of the things that I have observed over the years here at GSC is that whenever a discussion wanders into a debate over where scripture came from, or whether it was really from the biblical god, most posters will serve up their experiences as validation that what the bible says is true. And that makes sense, because you really can't prove (or disprove) the veracity of the bible just by reading the text. If there was no experience of what was written there what good would it be? But when you get down to experience, my experience will be different than yours, and Lindy's will be different than mine and so on. If a subjective, internal experience, and a personal subjective interpretation of that experience is the standard, then one person's experience and take on spirituality is just as valid as anyone else's.
"Surely, many of these scriptures were and are considered sacred to some people, obviously. There are also many other "scriptures" belonging to other cultures that are sacred to them, too. Where is the "right" one, which is the "right" God? I have honestly asked myself this question for the past 20 years since leaving twi and I can say it's not easy to even present it here because of the "heretical" stigma it carries. But some of us really, deeply are concerned about this subject and the implications of it we see in the world around us. I welcome conversation about it."
Yet now, you are shutting down the conversation. May I ask why? Is it coming too close to home? Let me assure you, there is nothing "heretical" about questioning God, for the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY is not afraid of your questions, Penworks. HE loves to prove HIMSELF true. Please respond to this. Thanks.
Since this post, much of what Oakspear and Lindy have said pretty much reflect my feelings and thoughts, too. I have no intention [nor the power] of "shutting down the conversation." What I have to add, I feel, is just repetitive of what I've already offered. And besides, quite frankly, I'm getting tired of listening to myself
I'm truly glad you've found a path for you that "works," brideofjc, and ask that you understand I need to be on my way. Let the conversation continue, ya'll!
besides that...we have a family member who is near dying, so I probably won't be around here for awhile.
"Surely, many of these scriptures were and are considered sacred to some people, obviously. There are also many other "scriptures" belonging to other cultures that are sacred to them, too. Where is the "right" one, which is the "right" God? I have honestly asked myself this question for the past 20 years since leaving twi and I can say
it's not easy to even present it here because of the "heretical" stigma it carries
. But some of us really, deeply are concerned about this subject and the implications of it we see in the world around us.
I welcome conversation about it."
Yet now, you are shutting down the conversation. May I ask why? Is it coming too close to home? Let me assure you, there is nothing "heretical" about questioning God, for the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY is not afraid of your questions, Penworks. HE loves to prove HIMSELF true. Please respond to this. Thanks.
and you also replied ...
Hinduism may fall to the ground, even as Dagon fell and the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY saw to it that both the false god's head and hands were broken off. I think it says it all. Can't think or do anything.
How do you know the false god's head and hands were broken off ... except that it was a story written down. You are using the Bible to prove the Bible is right, over say Hinduism.
You seem convinced of that as truth, based on your experiences ... I think this topic is not about that. It is about other views, and other writings.
It seems penworks has very good background to offer intriguing insight ... it makes me gag a little to think that you seem to want to "undershepherd" her back into the fold ... god told you to tell her ... blah blah ...
It seems you want to take us from questioning whether holy men of God spake as they were moved ... to we should listen to you because god is moving in you. That doesn't seem like an improvement to me, it seems more like you are judging her views as heretical, as she mentioned.
Your view is it is true because the HS works in you ... this topic is about writings ... or "scripture" and really about other options for those that have already spent years on the bible ... and have taken (a more honest look?) at biblical "problems" or other possibilities.
It just seems the Is it coming too close to home? comment is out of place and "preachy" and condescending. The authority of a spirit working in brideofjc is not the topic. My HS told me to tell you that ...
I'd like to stay on that topic ... but I admit, I have yet to read the books penworks mentioned ... so I have homework to do ... but that doesn't stop me from posting :) And I'm fairly certain penworks has much more to offer ... I'm willing to take the chance that she has exited the household that some bible thumpers perceive exists. If God strikes us down for venturing out .. so mote it be ...
oh, and I am very sorry to hear of your family member penworks ... I hope you have time to come back later ... I wish you the best in dealing with your situation ...
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lindyhopper
True, there is always that. Not a verifiable claim, but I can't disprove that possibility anymore than I can disprover whether there is or is not a God or gods. It is a statement of faith, not fact. I think the first step in accepting that sort of claim though is looking at other verifiable elements of the overall picture. That involves looking at the historicity of the books, characters, and authors of the NT, bible or any other book of faith, IMO. Otherwise, we are making an even bigger leap of faith.
On the other hand, maybe the size of that leap, what we are leaping over and through and from and to, doesn't matter so much (again I point to the Mormon Church, or scientology for that matter). Maybe historical cohesiveness and authenticity isn't that important. Why can't God or aliens "inspire" or "move" or "work in" a sci-fi writer? Who better to describe the supernatural? Why can't a guy find gold tables and translating glasses? Who's to say I won't at some point find the same things in my box of Lucky Charms? Not you! It's another unverifiable possibility that either sits well with us or it doesn't. It either strikes us as "scripture" or it doesn't. Either way we are first and foremost taking the writer's word for it and then determining our faith concerning it second.
It seems that most people don't want to just make a blind leap into the darkness of faith without being harnessed to something connected to reality, be it history or science or personal experience or a book. Otherwise, there is nothing there to differentiate it from the rest of the infinite possibilities. A light in total darkened emptiness doesn't illuminate anything. There needs to be something there to absorb and reflect it.
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penworks
Hi everyone,
First, Lindy, I love what you said, "A light in total darkened emptiness doesn't illuminate anything. There needs to be something there to absorb and reflect it." Gonna think about that one for while. Sometimes your writing is very poetic...
Anyhow, getting back to the first question about how "scripture" was taught in twi to mean the Bible (KJV canon) Here's just a bit of info about where this idea came from: that the scriptures, i.e. the Bible, is The Word of God and the "only rule of faith and practice" (as pointed out by a post in this thread by DontWorryBeHappy) .
I realize vpw credited Rosalind Rinker as the person who influenced him to believe this, but this idea has a long history starting pretty much with Luther's 95 thesis, the first item on his list pitted the authority of the Bible against tradition found in the Catholic Church [not a bad idea, but he became extreme about it IMO]. Some of you may know how vpw loved Luther. Luther claimed that no church tradition could claim divine sanction unless it was supported by scripture. So he decided scripture (which version? which translation?) was the only godly authority over our lives. This set in motion a wild chain of events...
"In his public debate in Leipzig with Johann Eck, theology professor at Ingolstadt (1519), Luther made his controversial new doctrine sola scripture ('scripture alone') explicit for the first time. How could Luther understand the Bible, Eck asked, without the popes, councils and universities? Luther replied: 'A simple layman armed with scripture is to be believed above a pople or council without it.' This was an unprecendented claim. Jews and Christians had always upheld the sacred importance of inherited tradition." The Bible - A Biography by Karen Armstrong, pg. 165.
IMO, its good idea to question tradition; however, this stance, because of ignorance of so many things about the Bible, has led to all the conflicting interpretations, sects, denominations, and yes - cults - in the world, and caused monstrous bloodshed, bigotry, mark and avoid tactics, hateful speech, bad behavior, etc. you name it, promulgated by people who believe they are "right" in their interpretation and application of scripture in our modern world.
Read about Luther and his life; you may begin to question his ideas, ideas which some of us inherited from twi.
I've cited Armstrong's work here before. But any history of the Bible could provide this same information. What I like about her book is that it is so concise . It's a very easy read. Read a few pages on your lunch hour.
It is only 229 pages. The are extensive notes with other works cited that you can read, too, if you're interested.
Publishers Weekly wrote: "...Armstrong not only describes how, when, and by whom the Bible was written, she also examines some two thousand years of biblical interpretation by rabbis and bishops, scholars and mystics, pietists and critics, thus opening up a myriad of exegetical [exegesis is the interpretation and understanding of a text on the basis of the text itself] approaches and dispelling any fundamentalist notion that only one view can be correct."
Also, Wide as the Waters - the History of the English Bible and the Revolution it Inspired by historian Benson Bobrick is great. It blew my mind! I saw how some of us have not only repeated the gross mistakes of others because of our ignorance but also out of our deliberate narrow-mindedness.
I'm on a campaign (can you tell
) to stamp out ignorance of the history of this text. It has influenced our lives in such profound ways - some good, some bad. The Golden Rule, as many have suggested, can help us get past old forms of narrow thinking about how we treat others; that "rule" may be the only hope we have of surviving in this crazy world.
Okay, enough from the book nerd...
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Ham
What about "secular" writers? Paul quoted Aratus on Mars Hill. Cited him as an authority..
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JeffSjo
Awsome reference Ham,
Paul recognized and even utilized what he wrote.
And it's written down for us to see how it's done.
Good, good reference.
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rhino
Once outside the strict KJV, it seems all other texts are helpful. Also, for me at least, the line between secular and "spiritual" writings is a little difficult to discern. It should all be historically accurate, though Paul (or whoever wrote some of his stuff) was supposedly revealing "God's Will".
This wikipedia section is interesting ... alternative views of Paul's writings ...
I wonder what forces were at work over the centuries to bend "the scriptures" to a more acceptable meaning. We see that in "research ministry" TWI, despite direct and obvious scripture to the opposite, adultery became acceptable. If vp was king, what would his Bible say?
And even if we had the originals of Paul, what was that really? Who died and made him God ... so to speak
Jesus died (and rose, we presume), but how do we know he (or God) made Paul anyone special?
You can see why it was easier for VP to make it all God's Word. We accepted so much on blind faith. Even for people that don't think the Bible is very accurate, it seems the history of how we got our current versions would be interesting.
For me, other history, like our geological history, make the OT scripture questionable. The great flood and age of the earth are apparent contradicitons that piffle does not explain. Mankind beginning with the first Adam and eve from his rib ... ummm ....
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brideofjc
Well, at least IMB, textual criticism aimed at determining to the best degree the historicity and authenticity of the authorship is a high priority. I would hate to think that I placed my faith in a work that was penned last week, aged with chemicals and fobbed off as bearing marks of antiquity. Sure it is possible to find gold tablets, they found stone tablets of many ancient works outside of Christianity...however....?translating glasses?....that's pushing it too far....because that would border on the claims that P.T Barnum made (I think), "There's a sucker born every minute!" If one is filled with the Holy Spirit, one doesn't have to take any writer's word for it, but can be instructed by the author Himself. While Matthew, Mark et al may have been penned by those names, the true author is the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY.
You are harnessed to something connected to reality when you step off that cliff of believing...God's hand will be right there to hold you up. A light that mankind shines into total darkened emptiness may be true to what you have just said....but when God shines His light into the total darkened emptiness of mankind's heart, it does bring light and it enlightens where one would not think that anything could reach it.
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penworks
Very interesting turns this topic takes...
Just one comment [and I know it's not popular] and I give it with respect, as I trust my viewpoint will be respected, about the following belief which brideofjc shared:
"While Matthew, Mark et al may have been penned by those names, the true author is the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY"
Although for years I would have agreed with you, my quest for understanding of this book called the Bible has led me to the place of questioning this assumption. Many people have various understandings about what or who God is [even in the O.T. different names were used and some say they refer to different "gods"]. For me, this affects the idea of an "authorship" by God of the Bible.
Surely, many of these scriptures were and are considered sacred to some people, obviously. There are also many other "scriptures" belonging to other cultures that are sacred to them, too. Where is the "right" one, which is the "right" God? I have honestly asked myself this question for the past 20 years since leaving twi and I can say it's not easy to even present it here because of the "heretical" stigma it carries. But some of us really, deeply are concerned about this subject and the implications of it we see in the world around us. I welcome conversation about it.
IMO, humankind has tried to relate to the unseen power around it since developing consciousness and has come up with various ways. May I be so bold as to suggest reading something like A History of God for further enlightenment for those interested?
From what I know, when monotheism developed, it ruled out other ideas of God, at least this seems to have happened in the area of the world we know of as the Near East today. Monotheism is one way of relating to the creative universe. There are other ways, too, just as good and productive, and creative and loving...
just a few thoughts...now I need to get back to yard work...how mundane... <_<
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brideofjc
You say that is an "assumption" that the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY had this particular collection of writings drawn together and has managed to preserve it for thousands of years, yet, perhaps its not the "right" God, because after all, other cultures have writings that they believe to be their form of "scriptures." Ok, there are a lot of civilizations that had these things and yet the people have perished and while parts of their sacred writings may have survived, yet they didn't. So where was their God? Elijah confronted such cultures in his day and asked them questions such as "where is your god? Perhaps he is asleep or gone on vacation for a while, maybe he didn't hear you?" You also write that for the last 20 years you have questioned, but I would ask you from what point did you jump off into the sea of questioning? Were you born again? SIT? Prophesy? Learned in the Scriptures outside of twi? Did you ever perceive the voice of the Lord through His Holy Spirit? Or at the very least think that you did? I do not know from what premise you leaped. Nor your experiences or training while in twi, or how you left it, etc. Of course, I can only speak for myself...but I have experienced a deep relationship with the Lord and His Holy Spirit has been "in rez" :) for many years, and with this being so, do also know (current) how He leads and gives "inspiration"; therefore, knowing how these "men of God" received the Word of God in their spirits and so wrote it down, which we now call Scriptures.
I would also recommend a book (a mere 915 pages) God's Empowering Presence: The Holy Spirit in the Letters of Paul by Godon D. Fee.
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sirguessalot
me too
thanks again for the thread
having recently spent a few years working, practicing and studying as an artist with a large interfaith group of monks, nuns, rabbis, ministers, pastors, counselors, chaplains, psychologists, doctors, nurses, educators, elders, administrators, authors, artists, musicians, yada yada...
...i have to agree with the concern penworks is pointing towards
and add my opinion...
...that functional effective interfaith and interdisciplinary dialogue is urgently needed in the world today
as sadly, it seems much of all world scripture was penned for purposes quite divorced from most all of our contemporary mainstream interpretations and applications
medicine and science and art and religion can co-exist...ive seen it
and ive seen the waves in history of it happening before...peacemaking, advocating, mediating, reconciling...etc...
but it seems our attention spans have become way shorter than those of the sacred scripture writers, for one thing
and even our hi-tech contemporary english seems to too rushed, private, tribal and/or fragmented to get us anywhere near anything resembling the great eras and revolutions in discourse
even the pre-modern mentallity of violent terrorism (whether islamic, christian, buddhist, atheist...)
uses the same flat post-modern language to justify those kinds of violent distorted applications of sacred scripture
hard to blame anyone for rejecting any opinions associated with entire canons of books and the long long histories around them
if all one has ever seen are such rotten examples...and a narrow sliver of even their own lineage
and as if in reaction to generations and histories of mostly disfunctional models and methods of "doing religion"
we reject anything related to religious history that requires discipline, practice, ritual, structure
so we miss most of the time-tested lineages of effective spiritual thought and practices...
...often simply by not wanting to look
we need some sort of renaissance of the tongue
and perhaps as a way to the heart it is connected to
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Oakspear
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brideofjc
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penworks
Well, thanks everyone for taking the time you have with this topic.
Guess all I have left to say is that I vote for the Golden Rule...
as far as a spiritual journey goes, it's clear each of us has a unique path...
peace
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sirguessalot
thanks brideofjc
i just have to say..that i like the way you described how you use the psalms in prayer
reminds me of how
egyptians
jews
celts
muslims
catholics
protestants
africans
asians
others
have all used those very same psalms the very same way you do over the millenia
in many different languages ...all over the world
usually by nuns, nurses, caregivers
and other "saints in hell"
im sure you can relate
i tell ya...the more i see of it all
the more world religious history seems intimately related to world hospital history
where the common ground that was found...whenever it was
was found in a field beyond accurate or correct interpretations of meanings of old stories
discovered by way of the most undeniables, if you will
at times when all else seemed lost
once there
it was hard to object
in any language
if one cared at all
...
thanks again pen
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brideofjc
Yes, Hinduism does, but Christianity has been making some strong inroads in that nation for some time now and the Christian population is growing. Who knows, maybe in yours or my lifetime, Hinduism may fall to the ground, even as Dagon fell and the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY saw to it that both the false god's head and hands were broken off. I think it says it all. Can't think or do anything.
Why doesn't it happen today, you say? I think it does, it just doesn't get the press. Perhaps not as grand as Elijah...but I know a person had challenged me verbally on something pertaining to Christianity (I can't recall the words now), but one of the promises that God has made, is that if you serve HIM with all your heart, HE will not let your words drop to the ground, but will perform them. Anyway, the person thought they had caught me in an error regarding what I had previously said....and it gave me pause....wondering just exactly what I had said at some prior time to cause this person to now be thinking..."Aha! got her now! Wriggle out of this one, lady." Then all of a sudden the HS dropped the answer into my spirit and I spoke it forth, and the person was taken aback with his mouth hanging open for a second before he shutup and turned away.
Another instance that happened to me, a woman colleague also did the same, not with Christianity however, but with a decision that had to be made and thought she had cornered me into having to agree with her way, when I knew I was right, but it was a test of wills. Again, she had said that I had to do thus and thus because the courts had ruled on this particular subject (cannot go into detail here because of privacy laws) and I would have to abide by it whether I like it or not. Then the HS dropped the bombshell answer into my spirit and I told her that the person in question would be receiving the decision of the courts because they would have visitation on Saturday, which would end one week and Sunday, which legally is the start of the next week. Therefore, the court rulings would prevail and they indeed would have weekly visitations. Again, open mouth....forced to shutup with no comebacks.
So, yes, it does still happen today. I haven't seen fire fall from heaven yet, but that doesn't mean that I never will.
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brideofjc
Penworks you said:
"Surely, many of these scriptures were and are considered sacred to some people, obviously. There are also many other "scriptures" belonging to other cultures that are sacred to them, too. Where is the "right" one, which is the "right" God? I have honestly asked myself this question for the past 20 years since leaving twi and I can say it's not easy to even present it here because of the "heretical" stigma it carries. But some of us really, deeply are concerned about this subject and the implications of it we see in the world around us. I welcome conversation about it."
Yet now, you are shutting down the conversation. May I ask why? Is it coming too close to home? Let me assure you, there is nothing "heretical" about questioning God, for the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY is not afraid of your questions, Penworks. HE loves to prove HIMSELF true. Please respond to this. Thanks.
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brideofjc
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cman
How many Gods do you think there are bride?
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frank123lol
Maybe,we are not believing for it?Ha ha.
God does,what god does cause he is god,and can do whatever he wants to do.
Somthing about how the foolish confound the wise in this world.
Hey,We are not shell anser men and women.
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lindyhopper
Bride,
Dueling faith conversations always die quickly. Why?
Well, we are talking about FAITH, that's why. It is a one way stream.
You compare an answer or a comeback coming to you, to a pillar of fire? Well, you compared it at first but then made it sound more like it is a token, your sign, that maybe you will see that pillar of fire consume some heathens some day. Might I add...
Nothing like watching men, women, and children consumed by fire from the sky, because they don't pray to the same invisible friend that you do. 
Nothing really kills a conversation more than crazy talk like that. It's like talking to a bunch of Japanese businessmen and telling them, "I've never seen a giant moth kill a large city of Japs, but that isn't to say I never will." Meanwhile you're wearing an "I *heart* Mothra" t-shirt.
Your examples seem a little like apples and oranges.
You claim the HS dropped these answers into your head. Ok. I think it was the everywhere present, all knowing, invisible, three headed Jack-a-lope, Skeeza. She's the god of quips, wit, smart answers, and good comebacks. Prove me wrong. May tar and feathers fall from heaven on me before I post this if I'm wrong.
I got a call from my brother the other day. You know how I knew it was him? I know his voice, because I have seen him in person and have heard that same voice in person. Its a different story when you hear things from an invisible something in your head. Who am I to say it isn't THE HS and who are you to say it isn't Skeeza? (praise be her name) Since we have never seen this HS in person, heard that voice in person, gave it a big hug, how are we to know WHO that voice is? Maybe you just know. Maybe EVERYONE says that, saint and sinner alike, sane and insane alike. There is no way to TRULY know at this point whether there are invisible things talking to us, much less that yours is right and Makmoud's is wrong, and that is why we call it faith.
One thing is for sure though. This HS you are talking about is key to the conversation, because pretty much everything we know about this "Holy Spirit" (at least by that name) is from NT books, many of which are under question or have been. For some poeple, if Billy Bob wrote Acts, while trying to pass it off as Luke's, then perhaps the content of that book should be questioned a little more. What if Billy Bob wrote it to discount other writings or other "Acts" (there are other books of Acts) and Billy Bob's side had more power, more men, and more money? It just so happens that this sort of thing has happened plenty of times throughout history. Those with the power, money, and forces (usually the same people) control the history written. Who needs fire from heaven when you've had plenty of rulers burning historical and religious books, even books of fiction (those three seem to overlap quite a bit) throughout the ages.
Another point brought up... oral tradition. Ever play "telephone"? Try that for a few decades. The only way we can claim anything has been "preserved" over the centuries is by faith, because we have no clue what the original stories passed down orally, generation to generation, were.
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Oakspear
Bride:
Just in case it's not clear, I have nothing against Christianity, Jesus, the biblical god, faith, miracles, etc. I don't believe that Christianity is demonstrably false or that the biblical god doesn't exist. My points are not made out of disrespect, or to try to prove my view is superior to yours. They're just points to ponder. Lindy's last post sums up a lot of my thinking as well, so I won't take up bandwidth by repeating it all.
God or holy spirit communicates with you...I say "cool"...I'm glad it works for you.
One of the things that I have observed over the years here at GSC is that whenever a discussion wanders into a debate over where scripture came from, or whether it was really from the biblical god, most posters will serve up their experiences as validation that what the bible says is true. And that makes sense, because you really can't prove (or disprove) the veracity of the bible just by reading the text. If there was no experience of what was written there what good would it be? But when you get down to experience, my experience will be different than yours, and Lindy's will be different than mine and so on. If a subjective, internal experience, and a personal subjective interpretation of that experience is the standard, then one person's experience and take on spirituality is just as valid as anyone else's.
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penworks
Since this post, much of what Oakspear and Lindy have said pretty much reflect my feelings and thoughts, too. I have no intention [nor the power] of "shutting down the conversation." What I have to add, I feel, is just repetitive of what I've already offered. And besides, quite frankly, I'm getting tired of listening to myself
I'm truly glad you've found a path for you that "works," brideofjc, and ask that you understand I need to be on my way. Let the conversation continue, ya'll!
besides that...we have a family member who is near dying, so I probably won't be around here for awhile.
peace
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brideofjc
For me? There is only one True God, Yahweh. There may be (IMB) those that call themselves god, but again, (IMB) they are not.
How many are there for you?
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brideofjc
You're showing your age, Frank123lol! LOL indeed!
And I guess I'm showing mine, because I know what you're talking about!
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rhino
and you also replied ...
How do you know the false god's head and hands were broken off ... except that it was a story written down. You are using the Bible to prove the Bible is right, over say Hinduism.
You seem convinced of that as truth, based on your experiences ... I think this topic is not about that. It is about other views, and other writings.
It seems penworks has very good background to offer intriguing insight ... it makes me gag a little to think that you seem to want to "undershepherd" her back into the fold ... god told you to tell her ... blah blah ...
It seems you want to take us from questioning whether holy men of God spake as they were moved ... to we should listen to you because god is moving in you. That doesn't seem like an improvement to me, it seems more like you are judging her views as heretical, as she mentioned.
Your view is it is true because the HS works in you ... this topic is about writings ... or "scripture" and really about other options for those that have already spent years on the bible ... and have taken (a more honest look?) at biblical "problems" or other possibilities.
It just seems the Is it coming too close to home? comment is out of place and "preachy" and condescending. The authority of a spirit working in brideofjc is not the topic. My HS told me to tell you that ...
I'd like to stay on that topic ... but I admit, I have yet to read the books penworks mentioned ... so I have homework to do ... but that doesn't stop me from posting :) And I'm fairly certain penworks has much more to offer ... I'm willing to take the chance that she has exited the household that some bible thumpers perceive exists. If God strikes us down for venturing out .. so mote it be ...
oh, and I am very sorry to hear of your family member penworks ... I hope you have time to come back later ... I wish you the best in dealing with your situation ...
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