By the way, here's a little tidbit Kahler doesn't have in his book for his readers that gives some insight into VPW's animosity and alienation of John Nave.
VPW was taking advantage of John's wife at the time.
Go figure. Why wouldn't he want to keep John under his thumb, on the defensive, second-guessing himself, and confused? Vpw split up that marriage. There is more information I could put up here on this, but it dovetails into information regarding two other people who do not want their personal info on the www. I've probably said too much already. But, there it is.
Just when I think my opinion of Vic can't get much lower....
I think that most of us here are compassionate, caring human beings...that's why it is so difficult to understand how a so-called Christian minister could be so callous and mean spirited towards anyone who stood in the way of his hedonism. He not only falsely accused Nave of murder but he was "taking advantage" of Nave's wife at the same time! Is there a man here who could do such things and justify them in his own mind???
...I can still see him riding around on his Cushman, waving at the crowds, soaking up their adoration as he enjoyed his Drambuie buzz and was plotting his next victim as he scoped out the "flock"...is lowlife too good a word?
And look at what he did to the people who DIDN`T die. Look at the legacy of vp`s doctrine left behind. I am talking about the pernicious teachings that live on after wierwille died.....look at those whom have embraced his doctrine.....effectively condemning themselves for a life time as heartless boogers with all of the answeres from the scriptures to excuse ANY bad behavior one choses to indulge in...and worse yet, blaming any victims whom were assaulted and wounded by criminal behavior....sadly, a life time of trying to live up to those principles and operating those immutable laws ...and invariably having to accept blame for the failure of faulty teahcings.....
These are victims of a despicable doctrine that allows one to spend a lifetime believing that they are a christian. The arrogance aquired with this knowledge will not permit one to consider that they are wrong.... :(
These are victims of a despicable doctrine that allows one to spend a lifetime believing that they are a christian. The arrogance aquired with this knowledge will not permit one to consider that they are wrong.... :(
...and it's all built into their "catch 22 doctrine"...the law of believing...This so-called "law" allows the "rule makers" to eliminate any other possibilities than what they are saying...it closes the mind and stagnates objective reasoning. Even considering other options means that you have failed... :(
...and who wants to fail?...Thus the cult gains compliance from it's glassy eyed followers...and then the victimization begins.
...and it's all built into their "catch 22 doctrine"...the law of believing...This so-called "law" allows the "rule makers" to eliminate any other possibilities than what they are saying...it closes the mind and stagnates objective reasoning. Even considering other options means that you have failed... :(
...and who wants to fail?...Thus the cult gains compliance from it's glassy eyed followers...and then the victimization begins.
Just one of my many pet peeves with the doctrine. The confusion of faith with believing. And the attempted reduction of faith and God to a mathematical formula.
All to try to sell you "God-in-a-box"--
And yes, it sets up the individual believer for blame if he cannot "operate" the "law" of "believing" properly.
You know, why, somehow, am I not surprised VP was after/doing John's wife?
Really, how low can a man go?
Making some poor man thinking he was to blame for a car accident in which a brother in Christ died, so the man is kept off balance and in condemnation while VP goes after his wife.
Really, can you say this is Godly fruit of the spirit?
If anyone believes this is the Holy Spirit at work, its blasphemous. Calling the evil the man did (VP) - good.
VP never manifested any remorse.
I knew John in residence, he was a great, sweet man. I never knew the burden he must have been carrying in his soul.
And it was VP who put that burden on him - an innocent man who loved God. I can understand how VP could make someone feel so guilt-ridden they would consider themselves better off dead, so as to be no disgrace to God.
No wonder VP whined he wished he were the man he knew to be at the end of his life. Too late!
You know, why, somehow, am I not surprised VP was after/doing John's wife?
Really, how low can a man go?
Making some poor man thinking he was to blame for a car accident in which a brother in Christ died, so the man is kept off balance and in condemnation while VP goes after his wife.
Really, can you say this is Godly fruit of the spirit?
If anyone believes this is the Holy Spirit at work, its blasphemous. Calling the evil the man did (VP) - good.
VP never manifested any remorse.
I knew John in residence, he was a great, sweet man. I never knew the burden he must have been carrying in his soul.
And it was VP who put that burden on him - an innocent man who loved God. I can understand how VP could make someone feel so guilt-ridden they would consider themselves better off dead, so as to be no disgrace to God.
No wonder VP whined he wished he were the man he knew to be at the end of his life. Too late!
I always knew John to be a very strong man. His wife was a strong woman as well. Then they got divorced and it blew my mind. Why? It didn't make sense. After the divorce, John was sent to Emporia to paint Don and Wanda's apartment. When I went to see him, he was changed. A broken man. Not the same guy. He couldn't voice to me why. I couldn't put my finger on it, because I had no idea what the big picture was with all the sex crap. I just kept seeing little pieces here and there, and when I would speak up or bring it to the attention of leadership, somehow the tables were always turned and I became the problem, not what I had seen.
I've been out of the way for longer than I was in it - yet I knew of more people who committed suicide while I was in. Obviously that's not a scientific sample. I think it speaks to the emotionally wounded state of us (and I include myself) who were attracted to such a cult - and also to the fact that much of what was done in the way had the effect of exacerbating the problems we had rather than helping. Some of this was due to ignorance, some to selfishness and callousness and some by design (in my opinion).
On top of that, the suicides were never mentioned as such and some other cause was always given as the official story - a gun accident, a mis-dosage of medication or in the case of Sandra Sullivan (if I recall correctly) that she fell asleep in her car with the engine running by accident. This covering up was by design: to avoid people looking into the individual causes but also to make it seem like way followers were better than they were, and that of course the doctrine was always right.
oldies, in all these years, this is the first time i'm going to say it, i'm done with you
i'm sorry
and i'm more than "probably" sorry for dear sandra sullivan
i'm sick with this discussion
that's it
--
ps. ITS form not it is form, you azz
Hey, I just got back to GS and I am excited to see that excath and dog lover responded to my post. You see, my post was meant to be a test within a test.
Actually, you know, kinda like remember when Willie Wonka was acting like such a jerk to those kids but really he was nice and just wanted to really test their honesty and it probably made his stomach all ooogy to act like that but he had to do what he had to do to make sure some brat didn't take over his candy factory?
That's me. I'm a nice guy but kind of went "Wonka" for the betterment of posters everywhere.
The first test was to lay a totally useless statement in the middle of an ardent discussion - rather like a turd in a punchbowl. (And I do believe a hyphen is warranted in that last sentence.) The reason I did this was to see if the participants were actually reading each others' responses.
Excath, you are to be commended. As the most brilliant and prolific of posters it is no surprise that you caught it. It was a thing of beauty watching you perform, not unlike Peyton Manning picking apart a defense on a Sunday afternoon.
Additionally, I deliberately misspelled a common word to see if anyone would catch it, and sure enough Excath caught that too - and was seconded by Dog Lover.
The fact that I deliberately misspelled a word in a post that chides someone for misspellings actually made it a test within a test with a twist of ironicalness.
Brilliant job! My faith is restored in the system. I sorry that I had to taint such a noble and grave discussion with a ruse but you must admit it was at my expense, and I do believe GS posters all over the world will benefit.
Yanagisawa...I don`t think many of us are here for your entertainment, or are too concerned about measuring up to your standards. The idea that you set up little tests to see which posters *measure up* to some wierd personal ideal that you carry on THIS thread is too creepy.
Yeah, your *turd* was ignored....but in using this thread to make some obscure point about posters rather than mourn the loss of our sister, or decry the evil that pushed her....in my opinion...is a failure in the test within a test of decency or compassion :(
You've been honest with us about what your doing and that is much, much better than some people can do here in terms of honesty and decency.
This thread is not about making some little irksome test on the other posters only to have you flatter the one who points out the mistake.
This thread is about the memory of one girl who was manipulated by someone in authority over her and then commited suicide even though those same bastards who abused her were warned of her troubled mind and chose to do nothing.
We've got other threads where your little tests would be more seemly.
Hey, I just got back to GS and I am excited to see that excath and dog lover responded to my post. You see, my post was meant to be a test within a test.
Yanagisawa, I've got a test myself. It's a really cool one, involving a bucket of water, a car battery, jumper cables, and someone's testicles. We'd all like you to participate.
And to stay on track on this thread, it's unfortunate this wronged man wasn't able to perform this kind of test on the veepster when he was still alive.
From what I read about the incident these folks had no responsibility whatever. I am totally unsupportive and unsympathetic of VP's actions accusing way corps folks of the death of Gary Dunhoff.
Ok, so you disagree with Wierweille here and acknowledge that they "had no responsibility whatever". So that makes VPW what? ..... A false accuser. He falsely accused these folks of the death of Gary Duhoff and falsely accused John Nave of "murder." It seems you agree here.
But we can hardly say that VPW had "no responsibility whatever " in the case of Sandra Sullivan. Of course I do not subscribe to VPW's standard of responsibility and neither do you as you have made clear. However, if we use VPW's standard as the bar, he convicts himself of murder in the case of Sandra Sullivan.
One difference in these two tragedys is that in the case of Sandra Sulivan, the accused, VPW, was directly involved in a way that probably influenced the outcome.
I am totally unsupportive and unsympathetic of VP's actions accusing way corps folks of the death of Gary Dunhoff.
Then why are you not equally unsupportive anhd unsympathetic of VPW's adulteries and abuses considering the effect they had on people?
I should say this—I don't have a mink coat. But I do have a respectable Republican cloth coat.
One other thing I probably should tell you because if I don't you'll probably be saying this about me too. A man down in Texas heard me mention the fact that our two youngsters would like to have a dog. And, believe it or not, the day we got a message from Union Station in Baltimore saying they had a package for me. I went down to get it. You know what it was.
It was a little cocker spaniel dog in a crate that he'd sent all the way from Texas. Black and white spotted. And our little girl named it Checkers. And you know, the kids, like all kids, love the dog and I just want to say this right now, that regardless of what you say about it, we're gonna keep it.
Good bye. And you won't have Yanagisawa to kick around anymore. And remember, a vote for Eisenhower is a vote for America.
Yang, are you Asian or is that your moniker so as to not be identified? Obviously you want to join Mike and Oldiesman in derailing this topic about this tragedy, and don't really care at all about this. Do I need to put you on ignore as well?
Then why are you not equally unsupportive anhd unsympathetic of VPW's adulteries and abuses considering the effect they had on people?
BOY oh boy that's a loaded question. You know what? I'm going to decline to answer because its Wednesday and I don't feel like getting into a brawl today.
What does a paraphrasing of Richard Nixon's "Checkers" speech have to do with Sandra Ann Sullivan's treatment at the hands of Wierwille and the Way and her subsequent suicide?
I guess I'm thick as well as inpenetrable.
O.K. I've met my match and I quit.
I should say this—I don't have a mink coat. But I do have a respectable Republican cloth coat.
One other thing I probably should tell you because if I don't you'll probably be saying this about me too. A man down in Texas heard me mention the fact that our two youngsters would like to have a dog. And, believe it or not, the day we got a message from Union Station in Baltimore saying they had a package for me. I went down to get it. You know what it was.
It was a little cocker spaniel dog in a crate that he'd sent all the way from Texas. Black and white spotted. And our little girl named it Checkers. And you know, the kids, like all kids, love the dog and I just want to say this right now, that regardless of what you say about it, we're gonna keep it.
Good bye. And you won't have Yanagisawa to kick around anymore. And remember, a vote for Eisenhower is a vote for America.
Then why are you not equally unsupportive anhd unsympathetic of VPW's adulteries and abuses considering the effect they had on people?
Oldiesman replied:
BOY oh boy that's a loaded question. You know what? I'm going to decline to answer because its Wednesday and I don't feel like getting into a brawl today.
It's only a loaded question because you cannot answer it intelligently and in a manner consistant with generally accepted morals - or in a manner that does not contradict other things you have said.
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Watered Garden
My own personal opinion is that Mr. Prager's opinion is shallow, judgmental, and ill-informed. I've never seriously tried to take my own life, but I've been in situations where I felt like I should.
Ham
What I can't understand is how someone could sink as low as to name their offspring after him..
Ham
Hmm.. like the Boys from Brazil I guess.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boys_from_Brazil_(film) Same here..
GrouchoMarxJr
Just when I think my opinion of Vic can't get much lower....
I think that most of us here are compassionate, caring human beings...that's why it is so difficult to understand how a so-called Christian minister could be so callous and mean spirited towards anyone who stood in the way of his hedonism. He not only falsely accused Nave of murder but he was "taking advantage" of Nave's wife at the same time! Is there a man here who could do such things and justify them in his own mind???
...I can still see him riding around on his Cushman, waving at the crowds, soaking up their adoration as he enjoyed his Drambuie buzz and was plotting his next victim as he scoped out the "flock"...is lowlife too good a word?
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George Aar
Yeah, I think it is. "Demented", "depraved", "pathological", and probably a few others get a little closer to the reality of who he was.
But he taught OM a few bible verses. There now, doesn't that make it all better?
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rascal
NO!
And look at what he did to the people who DIDN`T die. Look at the legacy of vp`s doctrine left behind. I am talking about the pernicious teachings that live on after wierwille died.....look at those whom have embraced his doctrine.....effectively condemning themselves for a life time as heartless boogers with all of the answeres from the scriptures to excuse ANY bad behavior one choses to indulge in...and worse yet, blaming any victims whom were assaulted and wounded by criminal behavior....sadly, a life time of trying to live up to those principles and operating those immutable laws ...and invariably having to accept blame for the failure of faulty teahcings.....
These are victims of a despicable doctrine that allows one to spend a lifetime believing that they are a christian. The arrogance aquired with this knowledge will not permit one to consider that they are wrong.... :(
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GrouchoMarxJr
...and it's all built into their "catch 22 doctrine"...the law of believing...This so-called "law" allows the "rule makers" to eliminate any other possibilities than what they are saying...it closes the mind and stagnates objective reasoning. Even considering other options means that you have failed... :(
...and who wants to fail?...Thus the cult gains compliance from it's glassy eyed followers...and then the victimization begins.
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Catcup
Just one of my many pet peeves with the doctrine. The confusion of faith with believing. And the attempted reduction of faith and God to a mathematical formula.
All to try to sell you "God-in-a-box"--
And yes, it sets up the individual believer for blame if he cannot "operate" the "law" of "believing" properly.
A crock-in-a-box.
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Sunesis
You know, why, somehow, am I not surprised VP was after/doing John's wife?
Really, how low can a man go?
Making some poor man thinking he was to blame for a car accident in which a brother in Christ died, so the man is kept off balance and in condemnation while VP goes after his wife.
Really, can you say this is Godly fruit of the spirit?
If anyone believes this is the Holy Spirit at work, its blasphemous. Calling the evil the man did (VP) - good.
VP never manifested any remorse.
I knew John in residence, he was a great, sweet man. I never knew the burden he must have been carrying in his soul.
And it was VP who put that burden on him - an innocent man who loved God. I can understand how VP could make someone feel so guilt-ridden they would consider themselves better off dead, so as to be no disgrace to God.
No wonder VP whined he wished he were the man he knew to be at the end of his life. Too late!
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Catcup
I always knew John to be a very strong man. His wife was a strong woman as well. Then they got divorced and it blew my mind. Why? It didn't make sense. After the divorce, John was sent to Emporia to paint Don and Wanda's apartment. When I went to see him, he was changed. A broken man. Not the same guy. He couldn't voice to me why. I couldn't put my finger on it, because I had no idea what the big picture was with all the sex crap. I just kept seeing little pieces here and there, and when I would speak up or bring it to the attention of leadership, somehow the tables were always turned and I became the problem, not what I had seen.
This stuff makes me ill.
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My3Cents
I've been out of the way for longer than I was in it - yet I knew of more people who committed suicide while I was in. Obviously that's not a scientific sample. I think it speaks to the emotionally wounded state of us (and I include myself) who were attracted to such a cult - and also to the fact that much of what was done in the way had the effect of exacerbating the problems we had rather than helping. Some of this was due to ignorance, some to selfishness and callousness and some by design (in my opinion).
On top of that, the suicides were never mentioned as such and some other cause was always given as the official story - a gun accident, a mis-dosage of medication or in the case of Sandra Sullivan (if I recall correctly) that she fell asleep in her car with the engine running by accident. This covering up was by design: to avoid people looking into the individual causes but also to make it seem like way followers were better than they were, and that of course the doctrine was always right.
The whole thing was disgusting.
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Yanagisawa
Hey, I just got back to GS and I am excited to see that excath and dog lover responded to my post. You see, my post was meant to be a test within a test.
Actually, you know, kinda like remember when Willie Wonka was acting like such a jerk to those kids but really he was nice and just wanted to really test their honesty and it probably made his stomach all ooogy to act like that but he had to do what he had to do to make sure some brat didn't take over his candy factory?
That's me. I'm a nice guy but kind of went "Wonka" for the betterment of posters everywhere.
The first test was to lay a totally useless statement in the middle of an ardent discussion - rather like a turd in a punchbowl. (And I do believe a hyphen is warranted in that last sentence.) The reason I did this was to see if the participants were actually reading each others' responses.
Excath, you are to be commended. As the most brilliant and prolific of posters it is no surprise that you caught it. It was a thing of beauty watching you perform, not unlike Peyton Manning picking apart a defense on a Sunday afternoon.
Additionally, I deliberately misspelled a common word to see if anyone would catch it, and sure enough Excath caught that too - and was seconded by Dog Lover.
The fact that I deliberately misspelled a word in a post that chides someone for misspellings actually made it a test within a test with a twist of ironicalness.
Brilliant job! My faith is restored in the system. I sorry that I had to taint such a noble and grave discussion with a ruse but you must admit it was at my expense, and I do believe GS posters all over the world will benefit.
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Sunesis
Oh, well aren't you just so "special" - you gave us a test.
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Yanagisawa
It was a cross I chose to bear.
Think nothing of it.
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rascal
Yanagisawa...I don`t think many of us are here for your entertainment, or are too concerned about measuring up to your standards. The idea that you set up little tests to see which posters *measure up* to some wierd personal ideal that you carry on THIS thread is too creepy.
Yeah, your *turd* was ignored....but in using this thread to make some obscure point about posters rather than mourn the loss of our sister, or decry the evil that pushed her....in my opinion...is a failure in the test within a test of decency or compassion :(
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Yanagisawa
OK, OK, I confess. It was all an elaborate hoax.
I really did mix up the rules of contractions and singular possessives concerning the pronoun "its", thereby placing a comma where one doesn't belong.
Are you happy now?
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JeffSjo
Personally, Yanagisawa, I am not happy now.
You've been honest with us about what your doing and that is much, much better than some people can do here in terms of honesty and decency.
This thread is not about making some little irksome test on the other posters only to have you flatter the one who points out the mistake.
This thread is about the memory of one girl who was manipulated by someone in authority over her and then commited suicide even though those same bastards who abused her were warned of her troubled mind and chose to do nothing.
We've got other threads where your little tests would be more seemly.
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chockfull
Yanagisawa, I've got a test myself. It's a really cool one, involving a bucket of water, a car battery, jumper cables, and someone's testicles. We'd all like you to participate.
And to stay on track on this thread, it's unfortunate this wronged man wasn't able to perform this kind of test on the veepster when he was still alive.
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Goey
Ok, so you disagree with Wierweille here and acknowledge that they "had no responsibility whatever". So that makes VPW what? ..... A false accuser. He falsely accused these folks of the death of Gary Duhoff and falsely accused John Nave of "murder." It seems you agree here.
But we can hardly say that VPW had "no responsibility whatever " in the case of Sandra Sullivan. Of course I do not subscribe to VPW's standard of responsibility and neither do you as you have made clear. However, if we use VPW's standard as the bar, he convicts himself of murder in the case of Sandra Sullivan.
One difference in these two tragedys is that in the case of Sandra Sulivan, the accused, VPW, was directly involved in a way that probably influenced the outcome.
Then why are you not equally unsupportive anhd unsympathetic of VPW's adulteries and abuses considering the effect they had on people?
You make no sense Oldiesman. None at all.
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Yanagisawa
O.K. I've met my match and I quit.
I should say this—I don't have a mink coat. But I do have a respectable Republican cloth coat.
One other thing I probably should tell you because if I don't you'll probably be saying this about me too. A man down in Texas heard me mention the fact that our two youngsters would like to have a dog. And, believe it or not, the day we got a message from Union Station in Baltimore saying they had a package for me. I went down to get it. You know what it was.
It was a little cocker spaniel dog in a crate that he'd sent all the way from Texas. Black and white spotted. And our little girl named it Checkers. And you know, the kids, like all kids, love the dog and I just want to say this right now, that regardless of what you say about it, we're gonna keep it.
Good bye. And you won't have Yanagisawa to kick around anymore. And remember, a vote for Eisenhower is a vote for America.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Yang, are you Asian or is that your moniker so as to not be identified? Obviously you want to join Mike and Oldiesman in derailing this topic about this tragedy, and don't really care at all about this. Do I need to put you on ignore as well?
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jen-o
gee...
why can't people just say:
i'm sorry... i did something stupid...
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dmiller
Living waters??? This *broken cistern* spews forth the blood of the committed saints.
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oldiesman
BOY oh boy that's a loaded question. You know what? I'm going to decline to answer because its Wednesday and I don't feel like getting into a brawl today.
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Kevlar2000
I'm sorry; I just dont get it.
What does a paraphrasing of Richard Nixon's "Checkers" speech have to do with Sandra Ann Sullivan's treatment at the hands of Wierwille and the Way and her subsequent suicide?
I guess I'm thick as well as inpenetrable.
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Catcup
Nixon and Checkers? A test?
WTF?
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Goey
Goey Posted to Oldiesman
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