It just seems.. if one views another's opinion as toxic and despicable, and conditions reach an impasse with no hope of any kind of reasonable reconciliation, what other option is there?
Well, you know what they say about opinions don't you?
(Opinions are like a**holes. Everybody's got one and they all stink!)
Reasonable reconcilliation?
I'm sure that is supposed to happen when people insist upon at, and end up on each other.
To properly quote WW:
If this is what a "Christian" can think and say, I can see why there's plenty of people with conscience and compassion who avoid or leave Christianity.
This is a stain on Christianity.
It's gonna take some real strong bleach to remove a lot of those "brown stains" don't'ja know.
I'll say this.. I don't have the heart to give om the beating he's getting over in another thread here.
It's futile. There will be no change, even with both tits over half-way up a wringer. The exchange is typical. I hear cries of "fowl" and "unfair" and "geeze, this really HURTS.." and he doesn't have a clue why.
It's all just another GAME.. why feed it?
It's the same old thing.. some of us just LOVED debate in our twi days.. some of us never grew up I guess.
some people would sacrifice their own grandmother to get back the good old feelings of twi of yesteryear..
The death of this woman was certainly tragic. It amazes me how anyone could deny any resposibility on the part of VPW.
From Karl Kahler's Book.
"Dunhoff died anyway. Wierwille called a meeting to announce his death. Then, said Desmond, Wierwille told everyone who had cheated on the colon cleanse to raise their hands. Then he told everyone who knew about the cheating to raise their hands. Everyone with a hand in the air, he said, was directly responsible for Gary Dunhoff's death."
The aboove refers to the death of Gary Dunhoff who died as a result of a car accident while he was out "cheating" on the colon cleanse by eating some cookies.
Wierwille held anyone who cheated on, or even knew about any cheating on the notorious colon cleanse
"directly responsible for Gary Duhoff's death".
So we have Wiwerwille, who cheated on his wife (adultry) while taking sexual advantage of a member of his flock, and as a result of of this, the woman commits suicide. Yet somehow, according to Oldiesman, Wiereille bears no responsibility.
Oldiesman, in light of the above, please explain how and why Wierweille can hold these folks "directly responsible" for the death of Gary Dunhoff, and yet somehow not himself be directly responsible for the death of Sandra Sullivan.
Although I'm glad the natures of vpee, ho-ward, and the twi culture are being exposed, I'm inclined to regard this thread as a sort of memorial to Sandra along the lines of what the first poster wrote, and cringe at the thought of OM et al, responding and dragging this thread through the mud again.
I also had a cousin who was suffering from improper treatment of her depression. She was also bi-polar. Her medicine didn't work for her prior to committing suicide.
I also agree that people suffering from depression can get to a place where they don't think they have a way out of their dilemna. Things can become hopeless for them to the
point they lose focus, are unable to process their thoughts clearly, and proceed into a downward spiral.
Her sister talked to her that weekend right before she ended her life. She thought something was wrong. She was right.
These people need our understanding. I sincerely believe a little love and empathy goes a long way. I believe it can deter someone from doing the "deed" if we act at the right time.
He was not a saint, to be admired or set up as an example of goodness-- the Del I know...
But maybe he was just another guy looking for Jesus who got seduced by the VIP...
VIP pulled all of us into his web to some degree or another -- some are still in it.
Maybe when Del shared that he had come to his senses, I certainly hope so...
But it is an excellent point Simon made.
Exxie
I have no reason NOT to trust Karl
I have spoken with him several times and have a friend who knew him well, I see no reason to think he would change the facts... Seemed like a decent guy from the little I spoke with him..
I will add, of course Del was not perfect, who ever thought he or any of us was???
but Del struggled to help people under his responsibility with the growing knowledge of just how deep the cancer ran. He finally gave up after he was booted from Colorado for no-one Really probably knows why. He was a far sight more honest a man with far more integrity than the upper echelon, in general, exceptions noted, I am sure.....
The Del I know never tried to sell she-iite and call it milk chocolate as so many others did...
The death of this woman was certainly tragic. It amazes me how anyone could deny any resposibility on the part of VPW.
From Karl Kahler's Book.
The aboove refers to the death of Gary Dunhoff who died as a result of a car accident while he was out "cheating" on the colon cleanse by eating some cookies.
Wierwille held anyone who cheated on, or even knew about any cheating on the notorious colon cleanse
"directly responsible for Gary Duhoff's death".
So we have Wiwerwille, who cheated on his wife (adultry) while taking sexual advantage of a member of his flock, and as a result of of this, the woman commits suicide. Yet somehow, according to Oldiesman, Wiereille bears no responsibility.
Oldiesman, in light of the above, please explain how and why Wierweille can hold these folks "directly responsible" for the death of Gary Dunhoff, and yet somehow not himself be directly responsible for the death of Sandra Sullivan.
I await your reply.
From Karl Kahler's book:
"Del Duncan was in Wierwille's office when John Nave came to talk to him, seeking forgiveness more than a year after Gary's death. "And as he walked in the door, these are the exact words that Wierwille used: 'Well, how's the murderer of Gary Dunhoff doing today?' And John never got over that. It's been a scar in his life ever since. He's still a very damaged man from that."
I know John Nave. John Nave is the man who originally witnessed to me. Right after his accident, I was surprised to see him at a picnic, on crutches with his leg in a cast. His femur had been shattered in the crash. I had not heard about what happened, and when I asked him, John told me how this happened.
John Nave was NOT ON THE COLO-CLEANSE when this occurred. He was on a paint crew, and had permission to go into town to buy a can of paint. He was on his way to the car when Gary asked to go into town with him. He had no idea what Gary wanted to go into town for, he just wanted to go along. While out getting the paint, Gary asked to go into a store. John took him to the store, Gary went in, and came out with cookies. On the way back to HQ, this woman ran a red light and plowed into their car going 40 mph.
That is how the accident happened. Explained to me, from the man who was behind the wheel, driving at a legal rate of speed, who had the legal right of way through the intersection, when this woman broke the laws of the State of Ohio, ran a solid red light, killed his passenger, and severely injured John.
And it was OK for Wierwille to label John as a MURDERER?
OK Oldies, explain how it is OK for Wierwille to lay the blame at the feet of an innocent man for the death of someone who was killed by the actions of a third party, and NOT OK for us to lay the blame at the feet of your hero for the suicide of a woman whom he abused.
No sheet, that is horrible. That poor man, John Nave. He must have been just scrambled internally after the accident, then hearing that crap....
John if you are out there - I am so sorry this happened to you. You should have been supported "by the church" not have them pour water on a drowning man...
Dear John my heart goes out to you.... This was NOT your fault. I am so sorry....
I think it's only right to linger for a few moments (at least) on those who lost their lives and were personally destroyed because of the monster of New Knoxville...and he claimed to have more love than any of us! Love?...the ONLY love this man knew was the love of his own belly and his own lusts...he thought NOTHING of destroying another person's life when it suited his purposes.
...yet...there are still those who hang their hats on his "divine doctrines"...HA! Whatever happened to "you will know them by their fruits"???
I wish I knew then what I know now...I'd have taken a flamethrower to that place...
"Del Duncan was in Wierwille's office when John Nave came to talk to him, seeking forgiveness more than a year after Gary's death. "And as he walked in the door, these are the exact words that Wierwille used: 'Well, how's the murderer of Gary Dunhoff doing today?' And John never got over that. It's been a scar in his life ever since. He's still a very damaged man from that."
Hhmmmm. So apparently, Oldies idol--errr 'godly example', wasn't as into Godly forgiveness as much as Oldies expects from the rest of us as regards our rendering of VPW. :unsure:
And Nave clearly didn't murder anybody. Not in the least! But that's not Wierwille's judgment of him. ... And yet Wierwille had more to do with being a direct influence on Sullivan's suicide, and Oldies (and other VPW apologists) staunchly dismiss any culpability on Wierwille's part as far as they can get away with.
By the way, here's a little tidbit Kahler doesn't have in his book for his readers that gives some insight into VPW's animosity and alienation of John Nave.
VPW was taking advantage of John's wife at the time.
Go figure. Why wouldn't he want to keep John under his thumb, on the defensive, second-guessing himself, and confused? Vpw split up that marriage. There is more information I could put up here on this, but it dovetails into information regarding two other people who do not want their personal info on the www. I've probably said too much already. But, there it is.
The death of this woman was certainly tragic. It amazes me how anyone could deny any resposibility on the part of VPW.
From Karl Kahler's Book.
The aboove refers to the death of Gary Dunhoff who died as a result of a car accident while he was out "cheating" on the colon cleanse by eating some cookies.
Wierwille held anyone who cheated on, or even knew about any cheating on the notorious colon cleanse
"directly responsible for Gary Duhoff's death".
So we have Wiwerwille, who cheated on his wife (adultry) while taking sexual advantage of a member of his flock, and as a result of of this, the woman commits suicide. Yet somehow, according to Oldiesman, Wiereille bears no responsibility.
Oldiesman, in light of the above, please explain how and why Wierweille can hold these folks "directly responsible" for the death of Gary Dunhoff, and yet somehow not himself be directly responsible for the death of Sandra Sullivan.
I await your reply.
From what I read about the incident these folks had no responsibility whatever. I am totally unsupportive and unsympathetic of VP's actions accusing way corps folks of the death of Gary Dunhoff.
And it was OK for Wierwille to label John as a MURDERER?
OK Oldies, explain how it is OK for Wierwille to lay the blame at the feet of an innocent man for the death of someone who was killed by the actions of a third party, ...
Although I'm glad the natures of vpee, ho-ward, and the twi culture are being exposed, I'm inclined to regard this thread as a sort of memorial to Sandra along the lines of what the first poster wrote, and cringe at the thought of OM et al, responding and dragging this thread through the mud again.
now I see,
I think this thread started off in the mud. This thread isn't about a memorial to Sandra, it's about condemnation of VP as a murderous monster. It was all but suggested in the first few posts. If we want to do a proper memorial for Sandra Ann Sullivan it should be posted in the "in memoriam" section of the forums where folks may share their feelings about Sandra and give respects and admiration for Sandra's life and the hope to see her smiling face again at the return of Christ, without malice toward anyone else.
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Watered Garden
My own personal opinion is that Mr. Prager's opinion is shallow, judgmental, and ill-informed. I've never seriously tried to take my own life, but I've been in situations where I felt like I should.
Ham
What I can't understand is how someone could sink as low as to name their offspring after him..
Ham
Hmm.. like the Boys from Brazil I guess.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boys_from_Brazil_(film) Same here..
What The Hey
Well, you know what they say about opinions don't you?
(Opinions are like a**holes. Everybody's got one and they all stink!)
Reasonable reconcilliation?
I'm sure that is supposed to happen when people insist upon
at, and end up 
on each other.
To properly quote WW:
It's gonna take some real strong bleach to remove a lot of those "brown stains" don't'ja know.
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jen-o
are you referring to the "brown stains" that twi made on christianity?
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Ham
I'll say this.. I don't have the heart to give om the beating he's getting over in another thread here.
It's futile. There will be no change, even with both tits over half-way up a wringer. The exchange is typical. I hear cries of "fowl" and "unfair" and "geeze, this really HURTS.." and he doesn't have a clue why.
It's all just another GAME.. why feed it?
It's the same old thing.. some of us just LOVED debate in our twi days.. some of us never grew up I guess.
some people would sacrifice their own grandmother to get back the good old feelings of twi of yesteryear..
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Ham
I don't think it's really an issue with about being RIGHT, more than an issue of losing an argument..
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Goey
The death of this woman was certainly tragic. It amazes me how anyone could deny any resposibility on the part of VPW.
From Karl Kahler's Book.
The aboove refers to the death of Gary Dunhoff who died as a result of a car accident while he was out "cheating" on the colon cleanse by eating some cookies.
Wierwille held anyone who cheated on, or even knew about any cheating on the notorious colon cleanse
"directly responsible for Gary Duhoff's death".
So we have Wiwerwille, who cheated on his wife (adultry) while taking sexual advantage of a member of his flock, and as a result of of this, the woman commits suicide. Yet somehow, according to Oldiesman, Wiereille bears no responsibility.
Oldiesman, in light of the above, please explain how and why Wierweille can hold these folks "directly responsible" for the death of Gary Dunhoff, and yet somehow not himself be directly responsible for the death of Sandra Sullivan.
I await your reply.
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now I see
Goey, you're a genious!
Although I'm glad the natures of vpee, ho-ward, and the twi culture are being exposed, I'm inclined to regard this thread as a sort of memorial to Sandra along the lines of what the first poster wrote, and cringe at the thought of OM et al, responding and dragging this thread through the mud again.
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Lori
I also had a cousin who was suffering from improper treatment of her depression. She was also bi-polar. Her medicine didn't work for her prior to committing suicide.
I also agree that people suffering from depression can get to a place where they don't think they have a way out of their dilemna. Things can become hopeless for them to the
point they lose focus, are unable to process their thoughts clearly, and proceed into a downward spiral.
Her sister talked to her that weekend right before she ended her life. She thought something was wrong. She was right.
These people need our understanding. I sincerely believe a little love and empathy goes a long way. I believe it can deter someone from doing the "deed" if we act at the right time.
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Dot Matrix
I knew Del
He was not a saint, to be admired or set up as an example of goodness-- the Del I know...
But maybe he was just another guy looking for Jesus who got seduced by the VIP...
VIP pulled all of us into his web to some degree or another -- some are still in it.
Maybe when Del shared that he had come to his senses, I certainly hope so...
But it is an excellent point Simon made.
Exxie
I have no reason NOT to trust Karl
I have spoken with him several times and have a friend who knew him well, I see no reason to think he would change the facts... Seemed like a decent guy from the little I spoke with him..
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rascal
I knew Karl and can vouch for the veracity of the first few chapters of his book.
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alfakat
I will add, of course Del was not perfect, who ever thought he or any of us was???
but Del struggled to help people under his responsibility with the growing knowledge of just how deep the cancer ran. He finally gave up after he was booted from Colorado for no-one Really probably knows why. He was a far sight more honest a man with far more integrity than the upper echelon, in general, exceptions noted, I am sure.....
The Del I know never tried to sell she-iite and call it milk chocolate as so many others did...
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excathedra
thank you alfa and my apologies if my post hurt him, i really didn't mean for it to
some of this gets confusing for me
from the least perfect one,
ex
ps. dot, thanks. again, no offense meant. i just heard there were some "stories" in his book, not like twi needs any..... ha !
i should read it, i know, i'm wrong. i shouldn't have said anything
sorry
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jen-o
hi excie,
you're a sweetheart...
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Dot Matrix
Alfakat
Yes, that IS the Del I knew...
Confused like the rest of us.... Hurt he sought Christ..... Fell into some VP traps..... Got messed up accordingly
....
on and on it goes....
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Catcup
From Karl Kahler's book:
"Del Duncan was in Wierwille's office when John Nave came to talk to him, seeking forgiveness more than a year after Gary's death. "And as he walked in the door, these are the exact words that Wierwille used: 'Well, how's the murderer of Gary Dunhoff doing today?' And John never got over that. It's been a scar in his life ever since. He's still a very damaged man from that."
I know John Nave. John Nave is the man who originally witnessed to me. Right after his accident, I was surprised to see him at a picnic, on crutches with his leg in a cast. His femur had been shattered in the crash. I had not heard about what happened, and when I asked him, John told me how this happened.
John Nave was NOT ON THE COLO-CLEANSE when this occurred. He was on a paint crew, and had permission to go into town to buy a can of paint. He was on his way to the car when Gary asked to go into town with him. He had no idea what Gary wanted to go into town for, he just wanted to go along. While out getting the paint, Gary asked to go into a store. John took him to the store, Gary went in, and came out with cookies. On the way back to HQ, this woman ran a red light and plowed into their car going 40 mph.
That is how the accident happened. Explained to me, from the man who was behind the wheel, driving at a legal rate of speed, who had the legal right of way through the intersection, when this woman broke the laws of the State of Ohio, ran a solid red light, killed his passenger, and severely injured John.
And it was OK for Wierwille to label John as a MURDERER?
OK Oldies, explain how it is OK for Wierwille to lay the blame at the feet of an innocent man for the death of someone who was killed by the actions of a third party, and NOT OK for us to lay the blame at the feet of your hero for the suicide of a woman whom he abused.
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Dot Matrix
Catcup
No sheet, that is horrible. That poor man, John Nave. He must have been just scrambled internally after the accident, then hearing that crap....
John if you are out there - I am so sorry this happened to you. You should have been supported "by the church" not have them pour water on a drowning man...
Dear John my heart goes out to you.... This was NOT your fault. I am so sorry....
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excathedra
wow that sucks like most everything else
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GrouchoMarxJr
...glad I started this thread...
I think it's only right to linger for a few moments (at least) on those who lost their lives and were personally destroyed because of the monster of New Knoxville...and he claimed to have more love than any of us! Love?...the ONLY love this man knew was the love of his own belly and his own lusts...he thought NOTHING of destroying another person's life when it suited his purposes.
...yet...there are still those who hang their hats on his "divine doctrines"...HA! Whatever happened to "you will know them by their fruits"???
I wish I knew then what I know now...I'd have taken a flamethrower to that place...
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excathedra
i'm glad you started it too
i learned a lot ha about certain people here
sorry sandra i love you
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GarthP2000
Hhmmmm. So apparently, Oldies idol--errr 'godly example', wasn't as into Godly forgiveness as much as Oldies expects from the rest of us as regards our rendering of VPW. :unsure:
And Nave clearly didn't murder anybody. Not in the least! But that's not Wierwille's judgment of him. ... And yet Wierwille had more to do with being a direct influence on Sullivan's suicide, and Oldies (and other VPW apologists) staunchly dismiss any culpability on Wierwille's part as far as they can get away with.
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excathedra
that's call f'd upness
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Sunesis
That's a great point Garth. There was no mercy, compassion, or forgiveness from VP.
Yet, VP worshippers expect everyone else to "forgive."
What hypocrites.
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Catcup
By the way, here's a little tidbit Kahler doesn't have in his book for his readers that gives some insight into VPW's animosity and alienation of John Nave.
VPW was taking advantage of John's wife at the time.
Go figure. Why wouldn't he want to keep John under his thumb, on the defensive, second-guessing himself, and confused? Vpw split up that marriage. There is more information I could put up here on this, but it dovetails into information regarding two other people who do not want their personal info on the www. I've probably said too much already. But, there it is.
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oldiesman
From what I read about the incident these folks had no responsibility whatever. I am totally unsupportive and unsympathetic of VP's actions accusing way corps folks of the death of Gary Dunhoff.
Never thought, wrote or suggested it was ok.
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oldiesman
now I see,
I think this thread started off in the mud. This thread isn't about a memorial to Sandra, it's about condemnation of VP as a murderous monster. It was all but suggested in the first few posts. If we want to do a proper memorial for Sandra Ann Sullivan it should be posted in the "in memoriam" section of the forums where folks may share their feelings about Sandra and give respects and admiration for Sandra's life and the hope to see her smiling face again at the return of Christ, without malice toward anyone else.
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