I just don't understand...is "getting off" so important that you can disregard another person's life?...Even when I was a hedonistic hippie back in the early 70's...consuming drugs, living a selfish, carefree life...I always cared about other people and would never have sexually abused anyone...and we are taling about a so-called "Christian minister"...
How can anyone have any respect for this lowlife?...heed his teachings?...gimme a break!
Maybe it gave him some kind of twisted pleasure to know he contributed to someone's death.
I don't know...maybe he was worse than I thought but in my thinking it was a case of "he just didn't care"...live or die...made no difference to him...as long as he "got off"...
I read about this somewhere on this site before or else it is recorded in Kahler's book, The Cult That Snapped. This is insideous beyond words. Does anyone know how it was investigated/reported? What year did this happen?
Maybe it gave him some kind of twisted pleasure to know he contributed to someone's death.
In my opinion he didn't give it a thought... I don't believe he thought he was doing anything wrong, so I don't believe he thought he had anything at all to do with the suicide. It is just not in a predator's mind to link themselves to actual consequences.
I'm sure there are others, but this thread brings to mind Tom Mitchell, his suicide was tragic, Loy has his blood on his hands, and Ramona, a real piece of work.
In my opinion he didn't give it a thought... I don't believe he thought he was doing anything wrong, so I don't believe he thought he had anything at all to do with the suicide. It is just not in a predator's mind to link themselves to actual consequences.
You're probably right
But I still can't help thinking that he found some sort of perverted pleasure when he discovered that he could make people think Gary's death was linked to a special power he supposedly wielded.
But I still can't help thinking that he found some sort of perverted pleasure when he discovered that he could make people think Gary's death was linked to a special power he supposedly wielded.
Since a dead man can't be tried any longer here on this earth, His judge awaits him in the heavenly courts.
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
My heart goes out to Sandra's family. I hope they know that God is just and will avenge this wrong, as well as the others.
All that goes on in a persons mind before committing suicide, I don't know. But I was listening to the Dennis Prager podcast one day and the topic was suicide... Dennis said something that stuck with me "suicide is selfish and narcissistic". It impressed upon me that no matter how hurt, desperate, depressed or insane a person may be because of relations with others, they still share in a level of responsibility for their own thoughts and actions.
All that goes on in a persons mind before committing suicide, I don't know. But I was listening to the Dennis Prager podcast one day and the topic was suicide... Dennis said something that stuck with me "suicide is selfish and narcissistic". It impressed upon me that no matter how hurt, desperate, depressed or insane a person may be because of relations with others, they still share in a level of responsibility for their own thoughts and actions.
I'm sure Dennis Prager is right in SOME cases, NOT ALL CASES of suicide.
I have personal experience with this subject and I know for a fact that some people that commit suicide are so totally & completely devastated that they can't see any other way out of their pain. Sometimes people are so very hurt and/or so very confused that they can't think logically and all they're trying to do is stop the horrific pain they're feeling.
That blanket statement that "suicide is selfish and narcissistic" is offensive to me and no doubt countless others. It's what I've come to expect from you around here, but I couldn't let this one go without comment.
There is an epidemic in our country of depression right now. Untreated and/or improperly treated depression leads to suicide.
I wonder Oldies, do you stay up nights thinking up stuff to say here that'll upset someone? Do you consider it a "score" when you say these outrageous things you say?
My own personal opinion is that Mr. Prager's opinion is shallow, judgmental, and ill-informed.
I've never seriously tried to take my own life, but I've been in situations where I felt like I should. Was I being shallow and narcissistic? I'm sure by a few peoples' criteria, yes. However, by my own criteria, I had just been informed by the God experts upon whose opinion I had staked my life, spent my money, alienated my family and tried to raise my son (who is thank God very forgiving) that I was no longer permitted the privilege of fellowshipping with them. The spirit within me had died and shortly thereafter my physical body would die also. I was convinced by these bastards that I was totally useless, utterly worthless, a vile, loathsome scab-encrusted, pus-dripping subhuman excrescence, unworthy of the privilege of inhaling oxygen on God's planet.
What drives people to suicide? Instead of listening to pinheads like this guy and his sycophants, listen to people like Waysider, whose friend died, listen to the people who knew and loved Tom Mitchell, listen to my son who walked in the door of a friend's apartment just as he pulled the trigger that blew his brains out. He still can't talk about it. He lost a couple friends in high school to suicide. They just gave up.
Whatever drives us to judgment, let's make it a judgment of compassion and love, not self-righteous haggling and misdirected loyalty.
My mother committed suicide when I was 18. I got involved with twi within the year. They had all the answers to all my questions - it was always either black or it was white. You were either doing that which pleased God or you were doing that which pleased the devil. It was tough, but it was consistent. As an emotionally needy and need I say vulnerable young girl, I believed the way was God's answer to my prayers. All my life I'd wanted to please God.
For the 15 years I was with twi, I considered my mother's suicide proof that she was devil spirit possessed. I believed she isn't going to heaven, that I'd never see her again. I was angry at my mom for being so weak and for never being a grandma to any of her grandchildren. I judged her weak, selfish, narcissistic. I was ashamed of my own mother.
A few years after leaving twi, I started to see some things I had never seen before. I started to feel compassion for my mother's pain. I knew how strong a person she was. I knew she loved God and Jesus. I knew she taught me to love them too. As I experienced different life situations, sometimes I felt intense pain. I've never felt my children would be better off if I weren't here. I can't imagine feeling that could be the case. I thank God I never have felt that kind of hopelessness. I'm so sorry my mother felt it. I'm so sorry she couldn't have lived a few more years, til the grandbabies started coming - maybe she would have seen in them what she never saw in her life before, that she belonged somewhere and really was cherished.
Oldies, go ahead and feel personally attacked all you want by my expressing my thoughts after reading yours. You quote a guy saying such a statement I think you were looking to see what reactions you'd get.
I look forward to seeing my mom in heaven. I'm no longer ashamed of my her. I owe her quite an apology and it'll be my pleasure to deliver it. I think I'm learning to stop seeing people through way-colored glasses. It really does boil down to loving God with all our hearts and our neighbors as ourselves.
My own personal opinion is that Mr. Prager's opinion is shallow, judgmental, and ill-informed.
I've never seriously tried to take my own life, but I've been in situations where I felt like I should. Was I being shallow and narcissistic? I'm sure by a few peoples' criteria, yes. However, by my own criteria, I had just been informed by the God experts upon whose opinion I had staked my life, spent my money, alienated my family and tried to raise my son (who is thank God very forgiving) that I was no longer permitted the privilege of fellowshipping with them. The spirit within me had died and shortly thereafter my physical body would die also. I was convinced by these bastards that I was totally useless, utterly worthless, a vile, loathsome scab-encrusted, pus-dripping subhuman excrescence, unworthy of the privilege of inhaling oxygen on God's planet.
What drives people to suicide? Instead of listening to pinheads like this guy and his sycophants, listen to people like Waysider, whose friend died, listen to the people who knew and loved Tom Mitchell, listen to my son who walked in the door of a friend's apartment just as he pulled the trigger that blew his brains out. He still can't talk about it. He lost a couple friends in high school to suicide. They just gave up.
Whatever drives us to judgment, let's make it a judgment of compassion and love, not self-righteous haggling and misdirected loyalty.
(((Bow))) I am sorry about your Mom. You are an awsomly strong woman with a huge heart to love and forgive.
Watered Garden, I am sorry for what you suffered. Nobody can understand the depths of despair when one feels when convinced that they are so spiritually depraved that they cannot even turn to God.
Nice guys these leaders whom managed to convince those they were responsible to teach that not even a compassionate God almighty could possibly care for them :(
Whatever drives us to judgment, let's make it a judgment of compassion and love, not self-righteous haggling and misdirected loyalty.
WG
I think judgments also should be made on logic and facts, not emotion. Saying John Doe was 100% responsible for Jane Doe's suicide when Jane Doe performed the act, is not logical, factual, compassionate or loving. I suppose its just like accusing someone of murder who didn't do it. Accuse them of what they are guilty for, yes, but not wholly for someone else's suicide.
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Watered Garden
My own personal opinion is that Mr. Prager's opinion is shallow, judgmental, and ill-informed. I've never seriously tried to take my own life, but I've been in situations where I felt like I should.
Ham
What I can't understand is how someone could sink as low as to name their offspring after him..
Ham
Hmm.. like the Boys from Brazil I guess.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boys_from_Brazil_(film) Same here..
rascal
He was her minister, he was her employer, he was her abuser. Poor lonely girl. Where do you turn?
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GrouchoMarxJr
I just don't understand...is "getting off" so important that you can disregard another person's life?...Even when I was a hedonistic hippie back in the early 70's...consuming drugs, living a selfish, carefree life...I always cared about other people and would never have sexually abused anyone...and we are taling about a so-called "Christian minister"...
How can anyone have any respect for this lowlife?...heed his teachings?...gimme a break!
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waysider
And you know, this happened 11 years before he chugged his last Drambuie.
Did he change his behavior after this incident?
Of course not. By all accounts he intensified his perversions.
Maybe it gave him some kind of twisted pleasure to know he contributed to someone's death.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I don't know...maybe he was worse than I thought but in my thinking it was a case of "he just didn't care"...live or die...made no difference to him...as long as he "got off"...
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now I see
Wouldn't this make him a murderer? Â To drive someone to this end?
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GrouchoMarxJr
you tell me...
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penworks
I read about this somewhere on this site before or else it is recorded in Kahler's book, The Cult That Snapped. This is insideous beyond words. Does anyone know how it was investigated/reported? What year did this happen?
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now I see
Hi Penworks,
Karl's book says 1974, its here:http://www.ex-way.com/excerpts/chapter14.htm
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WordWolf
Well,
we'd need a criminal lawyer to tell the difference. I know what I know as a layman.
Trying to answer based on that makes my answer sounds contradictory.
I know that the difference between murder and manslaughter is in PREMEDITATION.
In both cases, one person kills another, but a murderer intends malice.
Murder in the First Degree means the death was intentional, Murder in the Second Degree means
the death was inflicted when HARM was meant, but the death resulted anyway.
Manslaughter usually results when something else was intended.
Then again, what I know, since I'm a layman, is hardly the whole story.
Criminally-negligent HOMICIDE results without someone MEANING the death or harm of the other.
=========
Then again,
there are posters here who would say that-unless vpw pulled the trigger on a gun, drove in a knife,
shoved them off a cliff, then vpw would be COMPLETELY INNOCENT of ANY wrong-doing.
Of course, they're laymen ALSO, and skip all the levels like criminally-negligent homicide.
Driving someone TO suicide, I expect, IS a crime, but I lack the legal background to identify the
SPECIFIC crime. I know it's not Murder in the First.
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TheHighWay
In my opinion he didn't give it a thought... I don't believe he thought he was doing anything wrong, so I don't believe he thought he had anything at all to do with the suicide. It is just not in a predator's mind to link themselves to actual consequences.
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now I see
I'm sure there are others, but this thread brings to mind Tom Mitchell, his suicide was tragic, Loy has his blood on his hands, and Ramona, a real piece of work.
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waysider
You're probably right
But I still can't help thinking that he found some sort of perverted pleasure when he discovered that he could make people think Gary's death was linked to a special power he supposedly wielded.
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brideofjc
Since a dead man can't be tried any longer here on this earth, His judge awaits him in the heavenly courts.
I do not envy him at all.
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Kit Sober
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oldiesman
All that goes on in a persons mind before committing suicide, I don't know. But I was listening to the Dennis Prager podcast one day and the topic was suicide... Dennis said something that stuck with me "suicide is selfish and narcissistic". It impressed upon me that no matter how hurt, desperate, depressed or insane a person may be because of relations with others, they still share in a level of responsibility for their own thoughts and actions.
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bowtwi
I'm sure Dennis Prager is right in SOME cases, NOT ALL CASES of suicide.
I have personal experience with this subject and I know for a fact that some people that commit suicide are so totally & completely devastated that they can't see any other way out of their pain. Sometimes people are so very hurt and/or so very confused that they can't think logically and all they're trying to do is stop the horrific pain they're feeling.
That blanket statement that "suicide is selfish and narcissistic" is offensive to me and no doubt countless others. It's what I've come to expect from you around here, but I couldn't let this one go without comment.
There is an epidemic in our country of depression right now. Untreated and/or improperly treated depression leads to suicide.
I wonder Oldies, do you stay up nights thinking up stuff to say here that'll upset someone? Do you consider it a "score" when you say these outrageous things you say?
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oldiesman
Am I allowed to post opinions without getting attacked personally?
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waysider
I plan to visit the grave of a friend of mine sometime in the near future.
If I had to choose only two words to describe him, "selfish and narcissistic" would definitely not be the two I would choose.
I personally find it offensive that someone who never even met him can be so certain they know what happened.
edit
I'm curious to know what credentials qualify Dennis Prager to offer a definitive answer for such a complex issue.
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oldiesman
I guess it's just his opinion. Just like me, I suppose he doesn't always subscribe to the "blame somebody else" syndrome.
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Watered Garden
My own personal opinion is that Mr. Prager's opinion is shallow, judgmental, and ill-informed.
I've never seriously tried to take my own life, but I've been in situations where I felt like I should. Was I being shallow and narcissistic? I'm sure by a few peoples' criteria, yes. However, by my own criteria, I had just been informed by the God experts upon whose opinion I had staked my life, spent my money, alienated my family and tried to raise my son (who is thank God very forgiving) that I was no longer permitted the privilege of fellowshipping with them. The spirit within me had died and shortly thereafter my physical body would die also. I was convinced by these bastards that I was totally useless, utterly worthless, a vile, loathsome scab-encrusted, pus-dripping subhuman excrescence, unworthy of the privilege of inhaling oxygen on God's planet.
What drives people to suicide? Instead of listening to pinheads like this guy and his sycophants, listen to people like Waysider, whose friend died, listen to the people who knew and loved Tom Mitchell, listen to my son who walked in the door of a friend's apartment just as he pulled the trigger that blew his brains out. He still can't talk about it. He lost a couple friends in high school to suicide. They just gave up.
Whatever drives us to judgment, let's make it a judgment of compassion and love, not self-righteous haggling and misdirected loyalty.
WG
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bowtwi
My mother committed suicide when I was 18. I got involved with twi within the year. They had all the answers to all my questions - it was always either black or it was white. You were either doing that which pleased God or you were doing that which pleased the devil. It was tough, but it was consistent. As an emotionally needy and need I say vulnerable young girl, I believed the way was God's answer to my prayers. All my life I'd wanted to please God.
For the 15 years I was with twi, I considered my mother's suicide proof that she was devil spirit possessed. I believed she isn't going to heaven, that I'd never see her again. I was angry at my mom for being so weak and for never being a grandma to any of her grandchildren. I judged her weak, selfish, narcissistic. I was ashamed of my own mother.
A few years after leaving twi, I started to see some things I had never seen before. I started to feel compassion for my mother's pain. I knew how strong a person she was. I knew she loved God and Jesus. I knew she taught me to love them too. As I experienced different life situations, sometimes I felt intense pain. I've never felt my children would be better off if I weren't here. I can't imagine feeling that could be the case. I thank God I never have felt that kind of hopelessness. I'm so sorry my mother felt it. I'm so sorry she couldn't have lived a few more years, til the grandbabies started coming - maybe she would have seen in them what she never saw in her life before, that she belonged somewhere and really was cherished.
Oldies, go ahead and feel personally attacked all you want by my expressing my thoughts after reading yours. You quote a guy saying such a statement I think you were looking to see what reactions you'd get.
I look forward to seeing my mom in heaven. I'm no longer ashamed of my her. I owe her quite an apology and it'll be my pleasure to deliver it. I think I'm learning to stop seeing people through way-colored glasses. It really does boil down to loving God with all our hearts and our neighbors as ourselves.
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WordWolf
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rascal
(((Bow))) I am sorry about your Mom. You are an awsomly strong woman with a huge heart to love and forgive.
Watered Garden, I am sorry for what you suffered. Nobody can understand the depths of despair when one feels when convinced that they are so spiritually depraved that they cannot even turn to God.
Nice guys these leaders whom managed to convince those they were responsible to teach that not even a compassionate God almighty could possibly care for them :(
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oldiesman
I think judgments also should be made on logic and facts, not emotion. Saying John Doe was 100% responsible for Jane Doe's suicide when Jane Doe performed the act, is not logical, factual, compassionate or loving. I suppose its just like accusing someone of murder who didn't do it. Accuse them of what they are guilty for, yes, but not wholly for someone else's suicide.
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