I`ll tell you something else too. That sense of self loathing stays with you. I remember the first time that I wrote about this incident...it was 20 years later and the shame, the anxiety returned full force.
I re read my then post and felt that I STILL needed to justify, still needed to convince people that I wasn`t possessed, that the woman was just a bitch, still afraid...ashamed...worried that someone reading would smack their head and say *DAMN so that`s why Rascal is such a pia...that tc probably knew what she was talking about*....sigh
This stuff is awful when the people we have been taught to revere and regard as God`s spokesmen condemn and destroy. I`ll not hear of blaming the victim of abuse who has been driven to the point of helplessness and pain that suicide is the only option :(
I really think in God's eyes.. one lays out the traps, injures, maims, or drives "weak" people to suicide.. it's really the same as if they took out a 45, and pulled the trigger. Woe unto the man..
it's time to give him a cement life preserver about the neck.. doesn't say give part of the blame to the weak one. Doesn't fault the weak one for "immature thinking.." "lack of renewed mind.."
How can one who is supposed to be some kind of spiritual hot shot turn a group of female staffers into a personal harem of sorts and not think it's sin.. and even go as far as to call it rejoicing in their "freedom" in Christ(?)..
Well...and yet even a 3rd option would be that oldies was quoting a source and I was commenting as to the originator of the comment being quoted.
I suppose if oldies is of the same view as the fellow he was quoting, that he could interpret the comment made about his source as directed at himself.
That would not be accurate though. Maybe you should retract the comment about me lying friend.
I don't think so. Even if the comment was directed at Prager, you'd still be lying. You have no idea what pain he has experienced in his life! Its a put down, really. You couldn't just disagree with his opinion and say so and leave it at that; no, you felt the need for a put down too.
Ham, I don`t think that any whom were *weak* ...not when they were driven to that point by those in whom they relied upon to help them grow spiritually. It takes some serious beating down, some serious pain and helplessness, a feeling that there are no other options...What can one do when told by their spiritual leader that they are a stench in God`s nopstrils? Who can one turn to if family and friends and now it appears even God is disgusted and ashamed of you. When your presence poses a threat to the health and well being of all that you love?
Sorry Rascal.. I wasn't referring to you or anyone else as weak. In fact, you're one of the last people I'd insinuate that of.
:)
Only point I am trying to make.. these charlatans don't have an excuse. Even IF people were weak. I've seen them try though.. "duh, well, it was the PEOPLE. THEY shoulda been spiritually mature enough to handle it, shoulda been this, shoulda been that.."
It's like laying part of the blame of a con job at the feet of the "target" because they happened to be good natured and trusting..
Oldies, my original comment was about the person that you quoted, and the (to me) obvious lack of understanding. I assumed you were THEN making it about yourself by calling me a liar with the assumption that I was talking about you...shrug.
You commented that I was a liar because you yourself had indeed been to that point of of hopelessness and pain that would drive a person to commit suicide.....I thought that comment appeared to be at odds with your comment on the other thread.
Thanks Ham, I read you completely wrong and am perhaps feeling a bit defensive. Thanks for clarifying....
You are right...when you are beaten down to the point that you don`t have the strength to fight back any more...that IS weak...that is when you need your minister the most, your friends your family.
Kind of like if you were drowning, a life guard to help you fight your way back to the shore, to support your weakened body back to the safety of dry land where you could recuperate. A safe place to rest, to regain your strength and heal. To one day enter the water again to swim again with confidence and vigor.
Not only did our *life guards* in twi...those who were given the responsibility to over see and protect those swimmers under their care turn their backs when the cry for help came, not only did they refuse to assume their responsibility and go out into the surf to rescue the floundering soul, not to even mention bothering to toss a freaking life ring in the direction of the person drowning.......Even worse than turning their backs on the one suffering....sometimes, those heartless bastards boarded a boat and rowed out to the exhausted spent person and went so far as to place their stinking foot on the head of the one struggling with arm outreached to their rescuer beseaching for help.... and shoved them under....All the while looking the drowning person in the eye, watching callously as they slipped beneith the waves.
I don`t have enough words to express the contempt I feel for these posers, these men who claimed to be God`s representatives, who claimed to have all the answeres to life and Godliness, who accepted the position and trust as a minister of God`s people...to represent ones self as speaking for God.... and to then to separate them from the very source that might have helped.
Nearly as contemptible in my book, is blaming these poor people who suffered the ultimate betrayal at the hands of pretenders as God`s representatives for being driven to the point of hopelessness and suffering that would make suicide seem their only alternative :(
Rascal, I said you lied because you didn't know whether or not I had experienced that kind of pain, not because I had experienced it myself. It just so happens that I have, but it is irrelevant whether I did or not; the point is, you wouldn't know so you can't make incorrect statements like that. Anyway, I apologize for the lying comment, I should have used the word "mistaken".
I still disagree though with the idea that someone who commits suicide isn't at least partly responsible for their actions. Unless they are totally insane, which is in a separate category altogether.
Of course someone who commits suicide is partly responsible for their actions, they didn't turn into zombies, totally unaware of their actions without any control. The fact that there was an alternative to suicide, that there was a possibility, no matter how large or how small, of not taking one's life, does not in any way negate the responsibility of those who provoked the suicide, pushed the person toward it, and acted without any love or compassion for a fellow human being.
Rascal, I said you lied because you didn't know whether or not I had experienced that kind of pain, not because I had experienced it myself. It just so happens that I have, but it is irrelevant whether I did or not; the point is, you wouldn't know so you can't make incorrect statements like that.
Well your comment in the other thread about not knowing what goes through a persons mind that commits suicide would certainly lead one to believe that was the case.
I don`t give any credence to a man whom claims that suicide is narcissistic and selfish...shrug
My personal experience is all I can go on to understand what would drive a person to the point where they felt suicide was the only option in twi, and quite somply that is at odds with this mans statement.
A 13 year old little girl that was in our last theatre production killed herself a couple of weeks ago. All who knew her are at a loss as to understand why she would feel this was her best option, I seriously doubt at 13 it was narcissism and selfishness driving her.
Of course someone who commits suicide is partly responsible for their actions, they didn't turn into zombies, totally unaware of their actions without any control. The fact that there was an alternative to suicide, that there was a possibility, no matter how large or how small, of not taking one's life, does not in any way negate the responsibility of those who provoked the suicide, pushed the person toward it, and acted without any love or compassion for a fellow human being.
I agree in part. I believe the people involved in a life who commits suicide are responsible for their own actions, whatever they might be. But whether they "provoked the suicide", or "pushed the person toward it", is another matter entirely. Many of us go through life dealing with people who are unloving, selfish and unkind; yet it doesn't equal provoking or drive someone to suicide.
I agree that people who commit suicide are partly responsible for their actions. Maybe even more so.
just a little thougt. vic, loy and crowd cast quite a few stumbling blocks and snares right out in the open..
who bears the ULTIMATE responsibility, when someone "weak" falls? Now one can read the word "weak" a number of ways. I would call it "trusting". Trust, like one has towards one parents, as far as most families are concerned..
so they take someone who has this kind of trust, is humble, meek, and even loves them and passes the person between themselves like a prostitute..
Oldies, can't you really see the depth of betrayal here?
it's like.. they didn't just cheat people out of a few bucks or something.. I suppose that would be bad enough as it is..
it wasn't exactly like the guy who sold me a quarter of an ounce of molded lipton tea for five bucks when I was a lot younger..
I think there is culpability in the fact that we were promised all the answeres to life and Godliness if we just followed their teachings and formulas....but when it came to real life and real problems...when the promises didn`t work...the person who was suffering, depending on those answers for deliverance were left high and dry.
My tc and friend was despondent after losing his wife and the ministry seemingly going down the toilet...He was just expected to suck it up and renew his mind. Everybody refused to heed the warning signs...nobody got involved.
He died :(
I think that when you promise people all the answers in return for a life time commitment, you damned well better have some.
I agree in part. I believe the people involved in a life who commits suicide are responsible for their own actions, whatever they might be. But whether they "provoked the suicide", or "pushed the person toward it", is another matter entirely. Many of us go through life dealing with people who are unloving, selfish and unkind; yet it doesn't equal provoking or drive someone to suicide.
I agree that people who commit suicide are partly responsible for their actions. Maybe even more so.
Do you agree that people who harm others physically or mentally have responsibility in the harm they cause?
the facts are, that neither dennis prager nor the poster who quotes him, are professionally qualified to offer anything but their own uneducated opinions as to the causes of and responsibility for the act of suicide committed by anyone!......of course, they are entitled to voice their opinions, which, imho, displays their abject ignorance of the topic. even if either of them has "experienced" being depressed enough to commit suicide, their opinions still reflect a lack of understanding of any of the latest professional, psychiatric data concerning suicide, as well as the current, proven and accepted treatment regimens effective in the professional psycholgical and/or medical care of patients suffering suicidal ideations.
the "reasons", or "causes" of suicide are as varied and as numerous as the volume of suicide cases!........the common denominator is the dysfunctional, thought processes of the various classifications of depression which are "driving" the individual into further "feelings"/thoughts of shame, guilt, hopelessness, worthlessness or of being a helpless "burden" to those who matter most to the individual.........dysfunctional thoughts/thinking can be caused psychologically, physiologically, electrochemically, or, most typically, by a deadly combination of all three factors.........the best care involves all professionals in the healthcare delivery system trained to work the "team" approach for each individual patient, providing individualized, and specific care utilizing all the psycholgical, medical and biochemical tools available to provide the highest quality of care available for each patient..........the prevention and/or treatment of suicide is an area filled with numerous, ongoing studies, as well as numerous completed studies with volumes of data and research. it is a widespread healthcare issue, and depression itself is at what epidemiologists would term, "epidemic" proportions in both the united states as well as eurasia.........opinions such as those attributed to prager are nowhere near "the cutting edge" as to the latest understanding and treatment/prevention of suicide.
now regarding vic's "opinions" of suicide and those who committed the act, he had a magnificent, self-contained "understanding" of suicide, and taught it openly and often in the advanced class..........SURPRISE! SURPRISE! suicide is a "devil spirit"!........a person who kills her/himself has got to be "possessed"!..........the ultimate vic "ewwwww factor"!.......by whatever "weakness" the individual allowed in his/her life, that individual "opened the trapdoor" to his/her mind and let that damn spirit in!....simply could not or would not "renew" the mind well enough to keep that "trapdoor" shut!!.......despite the fact that the various individuals had enjoyed vic's or king okie's "personal ministry" more profoundly than thousands of other more "deserving" believers, all that "special love and sauce", and that privileged "private teaching" was not enough for that poor soul to "believe big enough to keep that devil spirit out"!
now who's "responsible" for the suicide??............certainly not vic or his wickedly accomplished pattern of sexual and spiritual abuse!........as a matter of fact, not even the victim is responsible for the act itself, 'cuz "da debbil made him/her do it"!!..........possession meant "no free will", since the possessed one is totally controlled by the devil spirit.......but, if it was'nt for the self-willed "weakness" or "spiritual immaturity" of the possessed one, that dirty devil spirit would never have had a "home"!!.......that "contaminated believer" was now just a "vehicle of the adversary" who could'nt rise to the level of believing to keep him/herself "spiritually clean"!.......he/she could have!.......he/she should have!.........but, once "possessed", the person is just a body with a devil spirit controlling it!.........again, that "ewwwwwww factor", which certainly did not promote interaction with the "possessed", but rather avoidance, or just plain disgust!!............like saying the "possessed" deserved, or earned his/her fate!..........does not leave much room for proper care or "ministering" for the poor victim, does it?.......let alone any concern whatsoever on the part of the mogs whose personal perversions and moral depravity set the entire series of events in motion!.........sandra ann sullivan???........oh, she was just some "possessed loser" running around hq!.........obviously you can't listen to, or believe anything she might have said!......it is beneath the mog to deal in any way with the words or works of devil spirits!!!............in the words of the church lady, "HOW CONVENIENT!"
from what i know firsthand about the contributing factors and causes of suicide in twi, as well as the professional training and expereience i have in caring for and treating suicidal patients, vic and the okie king are just as culpable in the events and thinking that led to the "devil spirit possession" which "caused" the suicides as are the believers who took their own lives!.......in order to cover their tracks, they outright lied, (bore false witness against their "neighbor"), and then totally defamed, isolated, and discredited their victims with a liberal application of that "ewwwwwww factor" of devil spirit possession!..........that attitude was as helpful to their victims as dennis prager's would be to suicide patients today!.........seems like some folks just can't deal with THE FACTS about vic's "personal ministry" of alcoholic, sociopathic, narcissistic, sexual predation, or his mean-spirited method of dealing with those for whom his "personal ministry" "opened the trapdoor" to devil spirit possession!!......it's good to be "king", eh?...............................peace.
This quote from "Passing of the Patriarch" is very interesting in light of the discussion at hand:
As far as Dr. Wierwille himself was concerned he wanted to die rather than compromise. I saw how hard it was for him to die. He did what he had talked about doing -- he turned to the wall and went to sleep. I am fully convinced that he believed to stop the functions of his body. As he lay there after having taken his last breath I was so proud of him that words cannot express it. He died for what he had lived by and for, God's Word.
"He wanted to die rather than compromise..."
"He did what he had talked about doing..."
CG was fully convinced that "he believed to stop the functions of his body."
So..... was vp in a suicidal state of mind?
If he was, then it would appear that cg was proud of this and the debbil spurt possession that this implies. (Not to mention the argument over "cancer is a ds.")
I'm pointing out how wayspeak kept changing and redefining and separating the "believers" from the MOGs.
I've been watching The Tudors, a show on Showtime about Henry the 8th. It is a drama based on the time during his life involving all of his wives and the Catholic Church.
There are so many similarities in regard to the women belonging to the King. Henry seemed to romp with any woman he pleased even though he was married. In last night's show, he runs into a man in "his" woods while he was out riding. The man had a stunning woman with him. Henry became captivated with the woman, kissed her in front of her husband, and then took her to the castle to have his way with her.
It's called something like "the royal right" or "royal priveledge" and goes back to ancient times. It is still practiced and not just by the ruler of the country, but by local or regional warlords in areas such as Turkey, Lebanon, Syria and Kurdistan where the societies are still feudal.
From what I understand, it is not a regular thing and about a year and a half to two years ago in Turkey there was quite a controversy when some local warlord showed up at a wedding and carried off the bride to practice this custom. As I recall, it was challenged in court and the "royal right" was upheld.
As I understand it, it has mostly been practiced with women about to be married or on their wedding nights.
Hi everyone, sorry I haven't been able to get back.
I occasionally still poke my head in and look around, though.
The comparison of adultery towards God, by worshipping other gods, and adultery towards a spouse is a valid one. God commanded against both, in the Old Testament. "No cheating".
The marriage relationship can help us to define the relationship God wants between His people and Himself. It brings it into high relief, clear viewing.
Contributing to the breakdown of the one can clearly effect the way we uphold the other. Promoting strong solid marital relationships promotes the vision of a strong relationship wth God. Ephesians speaks to it in the church's relationship to Christ.
It's really really strange - that in a ministry that spent so much time and effort on promoting Ephesians that this stuff would be in question at all amongst any of it's "leaders".
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
16
19
14
14
Popular Days
Apr 30
33
Apr 29
28
May 1
20
Apr 28
14
Top Posters In This Topic
rascal 16 posts
oldiesman 19 posts
brideofjc 14 posts
JeffSjo 14 posts
Popular Days
Apr 30 2008
33 posts
Apr 29 2008
28 posts
May 1 2008
20 posts
Apr 28 2008
14 posts
rascal
It takes compassion to understand Oldies.
I`ll tell you something else too. That sense of self loathing stays with you. I remember the first time that I wrote about this incident...it was 20 years later and the shame, the anxiety returned full force.
I re read my then post and felt that I STILL needed to justify, still needed to convince people that I wasn`t possessed, that the woman was just a bitch, still afraid...ashamed...worried that someone reading would smack their head and say *DAMN so that`s why Rascal is such a pia...that tc probably knew what she was talking about*....sigh
This stuff is awful when the people we have been taught to revere and regard as God`s spokesmen condemn and destroy. I`ll not hear of blaming the victim of abuse who has been driven to the point of helplessness and pain that suicide is the only option :(
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
You speak as someone who doesn't understand that level of hopelessness and pain.
She was giving you the benefit of the doubt.
One possibility-the one she took- was that you lack experience anywhere near it, and thus can't empathize with
what is-to you-foreign emotion. That is understandable.
The other possibility-the one she didn't take-was that you HAVE felt that level of hopelessness and pain, and are so
emotionally selfish, or emotionally numb, that you cannot, or will not, extend enough pathos to someone else
who's felt that, and instead of offering empathy or at least SILENCE (many of us chose to say nothing on the subject),
you instead started in with how it was shameful for the person to commit suicide.
Well, duh.
We knew that, but what needed saying was how they GOT to that shameful position. Suicides generally don't
kill themselves because they're feeling PRIDE or feeling GOOD about themselves.
I think you are CAPABLE of extending empathy IF YOU WANT.
Instead of only exercising it for the criminals of twi, how about trying something novel and extending it to
the VICTIMS at some point? You wouldn't have to do it ALL the time if you found it too taxing, but if nothing
else, it could be an educational experience. It certainly would be more novel than your habitual painting of
rascal as "lying".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
I really think in God's eyes.. one lays out the traps, injures, maims, or drives "weak" people to suicide.. it's really the same as if they took out a 45, and pulled the trigger. Woe unto the man..
it's time to give him a cement life preserver about the neck.. doesn't say give part of the blame to the weak one. Doesn't fault the weak one for "immature thinking.." "lack of renewed mind.."
How can one who is supposed to be some kind of spiritual hot shot turn a group of female staffers into a personal harem of sorts and not think it's sin.. and even go as far as to call it rejoicing in their "freedom" in Christ(?)..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Well...and yet even a 3rd option would be that oldies was quoting a source and I was commenting as to the originator of the comment being quoted.
I suppose if oldies is of the same view as the fellow he was quoting, that he could interpret the comment made about his source as directed at himself.
That would not be accurate though. Maybe you should retract the comment about me lying friend.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
This quote from the Sandra Ann Sulivan thread by you would lead me to believe that you haven`t.
*All that goes on in a persons mind before committing suicide, I don't know*
I don`t think that you could and make the comments that you do concerning those whom were pushed to that extreme.
That isn`t a lie, that is my opinion. Please retract your accusation.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
I don't think so. Even if the comment was directed at Prager, you'd still be lying. You have no idea what pain he has experienced in his life! Its a put down, really. You couldn't just disagree with his opinion and say so and leave it at that; no, you felt the need for a put down too.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Ham, I don`t think that any whom were *weak* ...not when they were driven to that point by those in whom they relied upon to help them grow spiritually. It takes some serious beating down, some serious pain and helplessness, a feeling that there are no other options...What can one do when told by their spiritual leader that they are a stench in God`s nopstrils? Who can one turn to if family and friends and now it appears even God is disgusted and ashamed of you. When your presence poses a threat to the health and well being of all that you love?
I don`t like referring to this as being *weak*.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Didn't you just say you were talking about Prager. Now you're saying it was about me? Which is it?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Threats deleted
Edited by pawtucketLink to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Sorry Rascal.. I wasn't referring to you or anyone else as weak. In fact, you're one of the last people I'd insinuate that of.
:)
Only point I am trying to make.. these charlatans don't have an excuse. Even IF people were weak. I've seen them try though.. "duh, well, it was the PEOPLE. THEY shoulda been spiritually mature enough to handle it, shoulda been this, shoulda been that.."
It's like laying part of the blame of a con job at the feet of the "target" because they happened to be good natured and trusting..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Oldies, my original comment was about the person that you quoted, and the (to me) obvious lack of understanding. I assumed you were THEN making it about yourself by calling me a liar with the assumption that I was talking about you...shrug.
You commented that I was a liar because you yourself had indeed been to that point of of hopelessness and pain that would drive a person to commit suicide.....I thought that comment appeared to be at odds with your comment on the other thread.
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Thanks Ham, I read you completely wrong and am perhaps feeling a bit defensive. Thanks for clarifying....
You are right...when you are beaten down to the point that you don`t have the strength to fight back any more...that IS weak...that is when you need your minister the most, your friends your family.
Kind of like if you were drowning, a life guard to help you fight your way back to the shore, to support your weakened body back to the safety of dry land where you could recuperate. A safe place to rest, to regain your strength and heal. To one day enter the water again to swim again with confidence and vigor.
Not only did our *life guards* in twi...those who were given the responsibility to over see and protect those swimmers under their care turn their backs when the cry for help came, not only did they refuse to assume their responsibility and go out into the surf to rescue the floundering soul, not to even mention bothering to toss a freaking life ring in the direction of the person drowning.......Even worse than turning their backs on the one suffering....sometimes, those heartless bastards boarded a boat and rowed out to the exhausted spent person and went so far as to place their stinking foot on the head of the one struggling with arm outreached to their rescuer beseaching for help.... and shoved them under....All the while looking the drowning person in the eye, watching callously as they slipped beneith the waves.
I don`t have enough words to express the contempt I feel for these posers, these men who claimed to be God`s representatives, who claimed to have all the answeres to life and Godliness, who accepted the position and trust as a minister of God`s people...to represent ones self as speaking for God.... and to then to separate them from the very source that might have helped.
Nearly as contemptible in my book, is blaming these poor people who suffered the ultimate betrayal at the hands of pretenders as God`s representatives for being driven to the point of hopelessness and suffering that would make suicide seem their only alternative :(
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Rascal, I said you lied because you didn't know whether or not I had experienced that kind of pain, not because I had experienced it myself. It just so happens that I have, but it is irrelevant whether I did or not; the point is, you wouldn't know so you can't make incorrect statements like that. Anyway, I apologize for the lying comment, I should have used the word "mistaken".
I still disagree though with the idea that someone who commits suicide isn't at least partly responsible for their actions. Unless they are totally insane, which is in a separate category altogether.
Edited by pawtucketLink to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Of course someone who commits suicide is partly responsible for their actions, they didn't turn into zombies, totally unaware of their actions without any control. The fact that there was an alternative to suicide, that there was a possibility, no matter how large or how small, of not taking one's life, does not in any way negate the responsibility of those who provoked the suicide, pushed the person toward it, and acted without any love or compassion for a fellow human being.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nottawayfer
Why are we NOT surprised???
At least you know your opinion counts with one person: yourself.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Well your comment in the other thread about not knowing what goes through a persons mind that commits suicide would certainly lead one to believe that was the case.
I don`t give any credence to a man whom claims that suicide is narcissistic and selfish...shrug
My personal experience is all I can go on to understand what would drive a person to the point where they felt suicide was the only option in twi, and quite somply that is at odds with this mans statement.
A 13 year old little girl that was in our last theatre production killed herself a couple of weeks ago. All who knew her are at a loss as to understand why she would feel this was her best option, I seriously doubt at 13 it was narcissism and selfishness driving her.
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
I agree in part. I believe the people involved in a life who commits suicide are responsible for their own actions, whatever they might be. But whether they "provoked the suicide", or "pushed the person toward it", is another matter entirely. Many of us go through life dealing with people who are unloving, selfish and unkind; yet it doesn't equal provoking or drive someone to suicide.
I agree that people who commit suicide are partly responsible for their actions. Maybe even more so.
Edited by oldiesmanLink to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
just a little thougt. vic, loy and crowd cast quite a few stumbling blocks and snares right out in the open..
who bears the ULTIMATE responsibility, when someone "weak" falls? Now one can read the word "weak" a number of ways. I would call it "trusting". Trust, like one has towards one parents, as far as most families are concerned..
so they take someone who has this kind of trust, is humble, meek, and even loves them and passes the person between themselves like a prostitute..
Oldies, can't you really see the depth of betrayal here?
it's like.. they didn't just cheat people out of a few bucks or something.. I suppose that would be bad enough as it is..
it wasn't exactly like the guy who sold me a quarter of an ounce of molded lipton tea for five bucks when I was a lot younger..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
I think there is culpability in the fact that we were promised all the answeres to life and Godliness if we just followed their teachings and formulas....but when it came to real life and real problems...when the promises didn`t work...the person who was suffering, depending on those answers for deliverance were left high and dry.
My tc and friend was despondent after losing his wife and the ministry seemingly going down the toilet...He was just expected to suck it up and renew his mind. Everybody refused to heed the warning signs...nobody got involved.
He died :(
I think that when you promise people all the answers in return for a life time commitment, you damned well better have some.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nottawayfer
Do you agree that people who harm others physically or mentally have responsibility in the harm they cause?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
DontWorryBeHappy
the facts are, that neither dennis prager nor the poster who quotes him, are professionally qualified to offer anything but their own uneducated opinions as to the causes of and responsibility for the act of suicide committed by anyone!......of course, they are entitled to voice their opinions, which, imho, displays their abject ignorance of the topic. even if either of them has "experienced" being depressed enough to commit suicide, their opinions still reflect a lack of understanding of any of the latest professional, psychiatric data concerning suicide, as well as the current, proven and accepted treatment regimens effective in the professional psycholgical and/or medical care of patients suffering suicidal ideations.
the "reasons", or "causes" of suicide are as varied and as numerous as the volume of suicide cases!........the common denominator is the dysfunctional, thought processes of the various classifications of depression which are "driving" the individual into further "feelings"/thoughts of shame, guilt, hopelessness, worthlessness or of being a helpless "burden" to those who matter most to the individual.........dysfunctional thoughts/thinking can be caused psychologically, physiologically, electrochemically, or, most typically, by a deadly combination of all three factors.........the best care involves all professionals in the healthcare delivery system trained to work the "team" approach for each individual patient, providing individualized, and specific care utilizing all the psycholgical, medical and biochemical tools available to provide the highest quality of care available for each patient..........the prevention and/or treatment of suicide is an area filled with numerous, ongoing studies, as well as numerous completed studies with volumes of data and research. it is a widespread healthcare issue, and depression itself is at what epidemiologists would term, "epidemic" proportions in both the united states as well as eurasia.........opinions such as those attributed to prager are nowhere near "the cutting edge" as to the latest understanding and treatment/prevention of suicide.
now regarding vic's "opinions" of suicide and those who committed the act, he had a magnificent, self-contained "understanding" of suicide, and taught it openly and often in the advanced class..........SURPRISE! SURPRISE! suicide is a "devil spirit"!........a person who kills her/himself has got to be "possessed"!..........the ultimate vic "ewwwww factor"!.......by whatever "weakness" the individual allowed in his/her life, that individual "opened the trapdoor" to his/her mind and let that damn spirit in!....simply could not or would not "renew" the mind well enough to keep that "trapdoor" shut!!.......despite the fact that the various individuals had enjoyed vic's or king okie's "personal ministry" more profoundly than thousands of other more "deserving" believers, all that "special love and sauce", and that privileged "private teaching" was not enough for that poor soul to "believe big enough to keep that devil spirit out"!
now who's "responsible" for the suicide??............certainly not vic or his wickedly accomplished pattern of sexual and spiritual abuse!........as a matter of fact, not even the victim is responsible for the act itself, 'cuz "da debbil made him/her do it"!!..........possession meant "no free will", since the possessed one is totally controlled by the devil spirit.......but, if it was'nt for the self-willed "weakness" or "spiritual immaturity" of the possessed one, that dirty devil spirit would never have had a "home"!!.......that "contaminated believer" was now just a "vehicle of the adversary" who could'nt rise to the level of believing to keep him/herself "spiritually clean"!.......he/she could have!.......he/she should have!.........but, once "possessed", the person is just a body with a devil spirit controlling it!.........again, that "ewwwwwww factor", which certainly did not promote interaction with the "possessed", but rather avoidance, or just plain disgust!!............like saying the "possessed" deserved, or earned his/her fate!..........does not leave much room for proper care or "ministering" for the poor victim, does it?.......let alone any concern whatsoever on the part of the mogs whose personal perversions and moral depravity set the entire series of events in motion!.........sandra ann sullivan???........oh, she was just some "possessed loser" running around hq!.........obviously you can't listen to, or believe anything she might have said!......it is beneath the mog to deal in any way with the words or works of devil spirits!!!............in the words of the church lady, "HOW CONVENIENT!"
from what i know firsthand about the contributing factors and causes of suicide in twi, as well as the professional training and expereience i have in caring for and treating suicidal patients, vic and the okie king are just as culpable in the events and thinking that led to the "devil spirit possession" which "caused" the suicides as are the believers who took their own lives!.......in order to cover their tracks, they outright lied, (bore false witness against their "neighbor"), and then totally defamed, isolated, and discredited their victims with a liberal application of that "ewwwwwww factor" of devil spirit possession!..........that attitude was as helpful to their victims as dennis prager's would be to suicide patients today!.........seems like some folks just can't deal with THE FACTS about vic's "personal ministry" of alcoholic, sociopathic, narcissistic, sexual predation, or his mean-spirited method of dealing with those for whom his "personal ministry" "opened the trapdoor" to devil spirit possession!!......it's good to be "king", eh?...............................peace.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
This quote from "Passing of the Patriarch" is very interesting in light of the discussion at hand:
"He wanted to die rather than compromise..."
"He did what he had talked about doing..."
CG was fully convinced that "he believed to stop the functions of his body."
So..... was vp in a suicidal state of mind?
If he was, then it would appear that cg was proud of this and the debbil spurt possession that this implies. (Not to mention the argument over "cancer is a ds.")
I'm pointing out how wayspeak kept changing and redefining and separating the "believers" from the MOGs.
Kinda sick IMO.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Deciderator
It's called something like "the royal right" or "royal priveledge" and goes back to ancient times. It is still practiced and not just by the ruler of the country, but by local or regional warlords in areas such as Turkey, Lebanon, Syria and Kurdistan where the societies are still feudal.
From what I understand, it is not a regular thing and about a year and a half to two years ago in Turkey there was quite a controversy when some local warlord showed up at a wedding and carried off the bride to practice this custom. As I recall, it was challenged in court and the "royal right" was upheld.
As I understand it, it has mostly been practiced with women about to be married or on their wedding nights.
Hi everyone, sorry I haven't been able to get back.
I occasionally still poke my head in and look around, though.
I wish all y'all the best...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
The comparison of adultery towards God, by worshipping other gods, and adultery towards a spouse is a valid one. God commanded against both, in the Old Testament. "No cheating".
The marriage relationship can help us to define the relationship God wants between His people and Himself. It brings it into high relief, clear viewing.
Contributing to the breakdown of the one can clearly effect the way we uphold the other. Promoting strong solid marital relationships promotes the vision of a strong relationship wth God. Ephesians speaks to it in the church's relationship to Christ.
It's really really strange - that in a ministry that spent so much time and effort on promoting Ephesians that this stuff would be in question at all amongst any of it's "leaders".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.