Whether the reality of the consequences happens or not, it is the fear of those consequences, real or not, that brings a person to the point of acquiescence. It doesn't matter how the person in power gets you to the point of fearing your own disobedience, relinquishing your liberty to them, but one way or the other they have brought you to that point and you have bought into it. Fact is, there were teachings that explicitly and implicitly drew a line between leaving the "household" and death, citing actual deaths as examples. So "mark and avoid" was a powerfully divisive tool. There were and are multiple teachings from the bible where people died because of disobedience. Anyone who sat through PFAL and bought into it had already started down that road with the "private interpretation," fall of man, and law of believing teachings.
Anyone who sat through PFAL and believed in "the law of believing" had the option of deciding for himself what he would believe. So when one heard "if you leave the ministry you will die", one had a choice to believe that or reject that, depending upon one's own choice. Or, choose to have faith in God and in the scriptures with verses like "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." So I think it was ultimately up to each individual.
We're not talking about fear because you've left. We're talking about people who obeyed and acquiesced out of fear. I think many people who stayed or stayed longer feared for their lives a little more than just whether they would be "ok."
I don't think so. Just so we're clear on this, I disagree. I don't believe people stayed in twi or the corps because they feared that if they left, they would die. However, I can see that upon being told "the hedge of protection" will be gone if one left, it's possible some believers fell into that thought process for a time AFTER THEY LEFT. The thought crossed my mind too for the first few days. However, after more reading of scripture, retemories, SIT, faith in God, and common horse sense (like seeing all the folks who already left who didn't die after all) that fear vanished quickly.
I'm glad that you were strong enough to deal with it as you say, but it's clear to me that many weren't as fortunate to have dealt with the mental abuse/persuasion in such a clear fashion as you say that you dealt with it.
I think that if you could manage to relate emotionally to those of us who felt the intimidation in a bigger way you might eventually be able to give folks a little comfort for their troubles, or at the very least your councel would seem more palatable to folks.
Oldiesman, we are talking about ruined lives here, do you feel compasion about that or not? If you feel some compassion for them then you need to figure out how to show it IMO. I really believe that would make a difference for you.
What exactly does the term "grease spot by Midnight" mean to you?
Well obviously it was bull, especially since the same man wrote the following in his loyalty letter of March 1989:
The time has come to draw the line. I understand it is not the will of the Lord to follow personalities above God. I also understand I Corinthians 3 and what carnality is. It is, however, God's will for believers to work together in love, believing, and mutual trust. The lines are so obviously drawn that it's time to bring it forth in common, plain talk, allowing you as a salaried Staff member of The Way International to decide and express which way you're going to go. God first, but you must decide with whom you want to work and fellowship. To stand with God means to do His Word and Will. That includes walking with mutual love and respect and like-mindedness and one accord. Each of us must decide with whom we want to do that...
This certainly is written confirmation that one may walk with God outside of twi. So I think it really was up to each individual what to believe. I'm not saying some didn't buy into the "greasepot by midnight" line as a cause for concern; but to me it's a red herring. I can't buy into the idea that it was a reason some now say kept some folks inside twi for years, with all the other evidence we have available to us. My basic belief is this: generally, participants stayed as long as twi was in some way beneficial to them. They left, when twi became un-beneficial to them. Of course there will always be some exceptions.
There were people whose deaths were exploited as a vehicle to illustrate what could and/or would happen if you dared to leave the safety of the household. I'm quite sure there are many here who could cite examples of this very practice.
You have no way of knowing, Oldies, who believed this or to what extent. When you say people did not believe it, you are merely offering a speculative opinion.
"Jim Doop, who buried Gary Dunhoff, told me how he died, as did Del Duncan, and John Desmond gave the same account to the Indianapolis Star. Dunhoff came out of Doop's fellowship in Mill Valley, and was in the Corps with Doop in 1974-75, as was Desmond. The Corps was on the infamous "colon cleanse," a mandatory three-week diet that involved one week of consuming only water mixed with a volcanic ash solution while taking laxatives and vitamins. In the second and third week, food was gradually reintroduced. The aim was to clean out the colon, for which enemas were also used.
Desmond told the Star that Dunhoff got tired of the colon cleanse and drove into St. Marys to buy a bag of cookies. Doop said Dunhoff and another member, John Nave, went into town for another reason and did pick up a bag of cookies, but he called it "a very spontaneous thing." On their way back, their car was struck by a woman driving 40 miles an hour.
"Gary was in intensive care for 12 days, and my wife and I had to take care of his mom and dad while they were there," said Doop. "We were with them round the clock."
Back at Headquarters, said Desmond, "We were told that we were going to pray this guy out of the hospital because we were spiritual macho men. Dr. Wierwille really believed and had us believing that no one could die while in the Way Corps."
Dunhoff died anyway. Wierwille called a meeting to announce his death. Then, said Desmond, Wierwille told everyone who had cheated on the colon cleanse to raise their hands. Then he told everyone who knew about the cheating to raise their hands. Everyone with a hand in the air, he said, was directly responsible for Gary Dunhoff's death.
"You were taught to follow the leader, right or wrong," said Desmond. "After that God show, if you didn't believe it before, you did at that point."
Doop said they buried Gary in the woods at Headquarters. "Probably the most devilish thing that came out of it was that John Nave was completely ostracized by Wierwille, treated very, very poorly," said Doop. "He never got off his back. John did everything he possibly could to redeem himself."
Del Duncan was in Wierwille's office when John Nave came to talk to him, seeking forgiveness more than a year after Gary's death. "And as he walked in the door, these are the exact words that Wierwille used: 'Well, how's the murderer of Gary Dunhoff doing today?' And John never got over that. It's been a scar in his life ever since. He's still a very damaged man from that."
I showed Duncan the "Death List," asking if he knew anyone on it besides Gary, and he said yes when he came to the following:
1974 - Dead - Sandra Ann Sullivan - committed suicide one month after becoming a secretary at Way Hdq. in New Knoxville, Ohio.
Del said she had been sexually involved with Wierwille. "She had already been involved before she became a secretary, with Wierwille and Howard Allen, and the impact on her was so great that she took her life," he said. "I talked to her and counseled with her a little bit, and also went before the Board of Trustees on it to try to get some reckoning about what this girl was going through, and others, but it was to no avail.""
Yup Waysider...Annanias and Saphira were trotted out as the consequences for breaking ones word to God...lying...if one found themselves wanting to leave the way corpes....
The fear of losing God`s love and protection were the weapons used to ensure compliance. The threat of physical harm is easy to face...the thought of being a dissapointment to God...of having to live life without him???? Unthinkable
Peter walking on the water was the example used to show what happened when you obeyed your leaders orders without thought....his sinking when he allowed his 5 senses to distract him from his leaders orders....
The promise of seeing a miracle for obedience to our leaders was dangled as a carrot before us...with the threat of losing our blessing and sinking the goad that prompted us from behind to ensure implicit obedience.
Is Donna Martindales tirade against Art Poling when he lost his daughter in an air plane wreck still around here?
To say that anybody besides yourself stayed through the horrendous abuse because we liked it or felt it beneficial oldies, is a rediculous assumption on your part...to assign this motive to others is mere speculation and not very honest.
I remember hearing about Gary's death when I was in Fellow laborers.
The story we got was that wierwille had gotten revelation that no one should leave HQ that particular day.
Supposedly the revelation he got was that whoever left would die and that is why he gave the order for no one to leave.
Did he ever give such an order? I don't know. That's not the point. The point is that we (there were 49 or 50 of us) were specifically told that to disobey the orders of a MOG could very well bring us the same consequences. So, yes, we were told that disobedience to a MOG(and I'm pretty certain quiting the Corps or TWI would fall into that category by their definition.) was unacceptable.
And you know, it never really occurred to me until this moment that this contradicts the Advanced Class session where it is taught that revelation is never given unless there is ultimate profit from it.
In fact, the example given in the AC is of someone getting revelation that a certain airplane flight is going to crash. Wierwille said God would not give such revelation unless the person subsequently used the information to stop the flight.
Airplane crash, car wreck-----What's the difference? He didn't stop it so his so called revelation was bogus by his own definition.(Which of course he got from someone else anyway.)
Wasn't there another such story that wierwille got revelation someone would drown in the duck pond if a fence wasn't put around it?
Ultimately, it WAS up to each individual. We all should have said "you're speaking lies" and stormed off.
However, I don't absolve those who indoctrinated others with lies from responsibility.
I don't believe people stayed in twi or the corps because they feared that if they left, they would die.
Except, of course, we've had posters who said they were TOLD that-if they left- they or their family would die, period.
One had a leader YELL at them "WHICH OF YOUR FAMILY MEMBERS DO YOU WANT TO DIE NEXT?"
Apparently you must have lived a sheltered life.
What exactly does the term "grease spot by Midnight" mean to you?
Well obviously it was bull,
It's a lot more obvious in hindsight.
In some situations when we were in, SOME of us (not me, and, presumably, not you)
it was set up as if that was the natural consequence of "leaving the household."
I remember hearing about Gary's death when I was in Fellow laborers.
The story we got was that wierwille had gotten revelation that no one should leave HQ that particular day.
Supposedly the revelation he got was that whoever left would die and that is why he gave the order for no one to leave.
Did he ever give such an order? I don't know. That's not the point. The point is that we (there were 49 or 50 of us) were specifically told that to disobey the orders of a MOG could very well bring us the same consequences. So, yes, we were told that disobedience to a MOG(and I'm pretty certain quiting the Corps or TWI would fall into that category by their definition.) was unacceptable.
And you know, it never really occurred to me until this moment that this contradicts the Advanced Class session where it is taught that revelation is never given unless there is ultimate profit from it.
In fact, the example given in the AC is of someone getting revelation that a certain airplane flight is going to crash. Wierwille said God would not give such revelation unless the person subsequently used the information to stop the flight.
Airplane crash, car wreck-----What's the difference? He didn't stop it so his so called revelation was bogus by his own definition.(Which of course he got from someone else anyway.)
Wasn't there another such story that wierwille got revelation someone would drown in the duck pond if a fence wasn't put around it?
The guy was a mental case, not a MOG!
Here's an example of this backward thinking promoted by vic in an excerpt from Karl Kahler's book "the Cult that Snapped",
"Jim Doop, who buried Gary Dunhoff, told me how he died, as did Del Duncan, and John Desmond gave the same account to the Indianapolis Star. Dunhoff came out of Doop's fellowship in Mill Valley, and was in the Corps with Doop in 1974-75, as was Desmond. The Corps was on the infamous "colon cleanse," a mandatory three-week diet that involved one week of consuming only water mixed with a volcanic ash solution while taking laxatives and vitamins. In the second and third week, food was gradually reintroduced. The aim was to clean out the colon, for which enemas were also used.
Desmond told the Star that Dunhoff got tired of the colon cleanse and drove into St. Marys to buy a bag of cookies. Doop said Dunhoff and another member, John Nave, went into town for another reason and did pick up a bag of cookies, but he called it "a very spontaneous thing." On their way back, their car was struck by a woman driving 40 miles an hour.
"Gary was in intensive care for 12 days, and my wife and I had to take care of his mom and dad while they were there," said Doop. "We were with them round the clock."
Back at Headquarters, said Desmond, "We were told that we were going to pray this guy out of the hospital because we were spiritual macho men. Dr. Wierwille really believed and had us believing that no one could die while in the Way Corps."
Dunhoff died anyway. Wierwille called a meeting to announce his death. Then, said Desmond, Wierwille told everyone who had cheated on the colon cleanse to raise their hands. Then he told everyone who knew about the cheating to raise their hands. Everyone with a hand in the air, he said, was directly responsible for Gary Dunhoff's death.
"You were taught to follow the leader, right or wrong," said Desmond. "After that God show, if you didn't believe it before, you did at that point."
Doop said they buried Gary in the woods at Headquarters. "Probably the most devilish thing that came out of it was that John Nave was completely ostracized by Wierwille, treated very, very poorly," said Doop. "He never got off his back. John did everything he possibly could to redeem himself."
Del Duncan was in Wierwille's office when John Nave came to talk to him, seeking forgiveness more than a year after Gary's death. "And as he walked in the door, these are the exact words that Wierwille used: 'Well, how's the murderer of Gary Dunhoff doing today?' And John never got over that. It's been a scar in his life ever since. He's still a very damaged man from that."
I showed Duncan the "Death List," asking if he knew anyone on it besides Gary, and he said yes when he came to the following:
1974 - Dead - Sandra Ann Sullivan - committed suicide one month after becoming a secretary at Way Hdq. in New Knoxville, Ohio.
Del said she had been sexually involved with Wierwille. "She had already been involved before she became a secretary, with Wierwille and Howard Allen, and the impact on her was so great that she took her life," he said. "I talked to her and counseled with her a little bit, and also went before the Board of Trustees on it to try to get some reckoning about what this girl was going through, and others, but it was to no avail.""
Yup Waysider...Annanias and Saphira were trotted out as the consequences for breaking ones word to God...lying...if one found themselves wanting to leave the way corpes....
The fear of losing God`s love and protection were the weapons used to ensure compliance. The threat of physical harm is easy to face...the thought of being a dissapointment to God...of having to live life without him???? Unthinkable
Peter walking on the water was the example used to show what happened when you obeyed your leaders orders without thought....his sinking when he allowed his 5 senses to distract him from his leaders orders....
The promise of seeing a miracle for obedience to our leaders was dangled as a carrot before us...with the threat of losing our blessing and sinking the goad that prompted us from behind to ensure implicit obedience.
Is Donna Martindales tirade against Art Poling when he lost his daughter in an air plane wreck still around here?
To say that anybody besides yourself stayed through the horrendous abuse because we liked it or felt it beneficial oldies, is a rediculous assumption on your part...to assign this motive to others is mere speculation and not very honest.
There were people whose deaths were exploited as a vehicle to illustrate what could and/or would happen if you dared to leave the safety of the household. I'm quite sure there are many here who could cite examples of this very practice.
You have no way of knowing, Oldies, who believed this or to what extent. When you say people did not believe it, you are merely offering a speculative opinion.
In "Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus" which was edited after Dr.'s passing by Chris Geer, Dr. Wierwille teaches some things that have always troubled me along these lines. In the chapter entitled "David and Bathsheba... The Final Chapter", Dr Wierwille explains how it would have been improper for Bathsheba to come in and acuse the king and Abishag of improper conduct. He impied that the right way to handle these situations was by revelation only, and it was not good enough to accuse the king rightly for his misbehavior.
DOES THAT SOUND FAMILIAR TO SOME OF YOU FOLKS TOO?????
The teaching troubled me right from the first time that I read it because when I read the biblical record it was clear that all Abishag did was keep the king warm, but as Dr. taught this record he said that Bathsheba had "All the right in the world to come in and say: 'Look, you're my husband. Abishag, you get out of here, you sex fiend.'" ......
In truth, as Abishag only kept the king warm Bathsheba DID NOT have the right to say that, so who was Dr. Wierwille really talking about anyway?
After my fellowship here with you folks it seems clear to me that this error in teaching what the Word of God actually says in this record indicates a big problem in Dr.'s last days in his own life.
(EDITED FOR GRAMMAR)
Hi Jeff,
I guess in the first place which bible version are you reading? KJV? Uhmmmm.....KJV is notorious for sugar coating the VERY RAW HEBREW When it says that Abishag
was KEEPING HIM WARM.....it was more than snuggling or playing footsies. More like attempting to get David's blood racing.....Uhmmmm......
Notice how vpw puts the blame on the woman who was brought in.
rather than the King or anyone in power who BROUGHT her in.
SHE was the sex fiend- but someone else BROUGHT her in
Some people will think that means nothing. I think the rest of us will say that says a LOT about the speaker.
I've read this before, but I don't know how I missed it until now.
He also did that with David's first wife as well....
2 Sam 6:21-23
First Michal despised him in her heart and then she rebuked him for dancing naked and letting servant girls see the king. The text states simply that David said that the servant girls would honor him (i.e. lie with him naked and have sex) but in contrast David wouldn't have sex with Michal anymore after that day. Then in v 23 the text simply states that Michal had no children by David until the day of her death.
It used to really bug me that VPW always taught that GOD HAD STRICKEN HER BARREN because she DESPISED THE KING! When in reality it was simply a matter of not having sex with your husband anymore. Yup that would tend to make you barren, maybe not physically barren as it being something wrong with Michal, but barren nevertheless.
I never really thought about this until now, but it probably is a sure bet that since he was so fond of molesting women and even drugging them to get them into bed with him, that deep down he was a misogynist. Many abusers who are super critical are really attempting to cover up the truth that they really hate women. Perhaps he did. That's why rape is a hate crime.
Sure OM has the right to think differently and the rest of us have a right to think you and he are "a little off".
Read the "famous last words" thread. There are many examples in there showing how many people believed leaving the "household" was writing your own death certificate. Was it taught on SNS? In some a word, yes. I recall Donna Martindales teaching giving examples of people or people's kids dying shortly after leaving TWI. Meanwhile, a standing believer had the superhuman strength to hold a airplane door closed so it didn't depressurize. The accuracy of the stories isn't relevant, the comparison is and that it was brought up in a SNS. It was clearly taught more to the corps and Adv Cl grads. I could go on, but the horse has been dead for some time.
So it is a valid comparison. The fact that some people disagree with the facts, is their right. You are wrong, but it is your right to be.
The teaching didn't need to be directly linked in an open teaching. It only had to be hinted at or taught and then later behind the scenes linked. Which in tandem with the above concept of death by disobedience, and a MOG persona the "doctrine" is made, the pressure is applied, and you have a choice. As the other teaching goes, "choose LIFE!"
It is not a 1 to 1 comparison but it is a valid one and it is THE same concept, from the times of Henry the VIII and the times of David, that VPW and others used to get his way.
Very valid comparisons.
Well that's a nice theory Lindy as theories go, except for the fact that what people believed was their own choice, we all have free will to choose what we choose to accept, or not accept. I can give you examples of people who did not believe that as well. So? Some believed it, some did not, that does not validate the comparison either way it's a matter of opinion how you want to see things ,That's Agenda by the way. You assume you are right because that's the way you want the outcome to be. I could assume the same based on my examples. The truth is neither validates the comparison as I said. And then to further assume that because someone will not accept your opinion as fact, that they have no sympathy is a giant leap with no reasoning to support it. It is two entirely different things.
"Jim Doop, who buried Gary Dunhoff, told me how he died, as did Del Duncan, and John Desmond gave the same account to the Indianapolis Star. Dunhoff came out of Doop's fellowship in Mill Valley, and was in the Corps with Doop in 1974-75, as was Desmond. The Corps was on the infamous "colon cleanse," a mandatory three-week diet that involved one week of consuming only water mixed with a volcanic ash solution while taking laxatives and vitamins. In the second and third week, food was gradually reintroduced. The aim was to clean out the colon, for which enemas were also used.
Desmond told the Star that Dunhoff got tired of the colon cleanse and drove into St. Marys to buy a bag of cookies. Doop said Dunhoff and another member, John Nave, went into town for another reason and did pick up a bag of cookies, but he called it "a very spontaneous thing." On their way back, their car was struck by a woman driving 40 miles an hour.
"Gary was in intensive care for 12 days, and my wife and I had to take care of his mom and dad while they were there," said Doop. "We were with them round the clock."
Back at Headquarters, said Desmond, "We were told that we were going to pray this guy out of the hospital because we were spiritual macho men. Dr. Wierwille really believed and had us believing that no one could die while in the Way Corps."
Dunhoff died anyway. Wierwille called a meeting to announce his death. Then, said Desmond, Wierwille told everyone who had cheated on the colon cleanse to raise their hands. Then he told everyone who knew about the cheating to raise their hands. Everyone with a hand in the air, he said, was directly responsible for Gary Dunhoff's death.
"You were taught to follow the leader, right or wrong," said Desmond. "After that God show, if you didn't believe it before, you did at that point."
Doop said they buried Gary in the woods at Headquarters. "Probably the most devilish thing that came out of it was that John Nave was completely ostracized by Wierwille, treated very, very poorly," said Doop. "He never got off his back. John did everything he possibly could to redeem himself."
Del Duncan was in Wierwille's office when John Nave came to talk to him, seeking forgiveness more than a year after Gary's death. "And as he walked in the door, these are the exact words that Wierwille used: 'Well, how's the murderer of Gary Dunhoff doing today?' And John never got over that. It's been a scar in his life ever since. He's still a very damaged man from that."
I showed Duncan the "Death List," asking if he knew anyone on it besides Gary, and he said yes when he came to the following:
1974 - Dead - Sandra Ann Sullivan - committed suicide one month after becoming a secretary at Way Hdq. in New Knoxville, Ohio.
Del said she had been sexually involved with Wierwille. "She had already been involved before she became a secretary, with Wierwille and Howard Allen, and the impact on her was so great that she took her life," he said. "I talked to her and counseled with her a little bit, and also went before the Board of Trustees on it to try to get some reckoning about what this girl was going through, and others, but it was to no avail.""
All that goes on in a persons mind before committing suicide, I don't know. But I was listening to the Dennis Prager podcast one day and the topic was suicide... Dennis said something that stuck with me "suicide is selfish and narcissistic". It impressed upon me that no matter how hurt, desperate, depressed or insane a person may be because of relations with others, they still share in a level of responsibility for their own thoughts and actions.
It impressed upon me that no matter how hurt, desperate, depressed or insane a person may be because of relations with others, they still share in a level of responsibility for their own thoughts and actions.
Does that same standard apply to depraved cult leaders?
Spoken truly as someone who has never felt that level of hopelessness and pain.
I remember when I was pushed to the brink myself....
I remember thinking when the tc`s wife declared me possessed....I was terrified, I was disgusted that I could be filled with such evil, I felt like I was carrying a disgusting disease that I could pass on...I was so ashamed ...completely bewildered ..not understanding how it could have happened ...not knowing how to fix it...Who could I go to? How could I admit to my depraved condition....How ashamed I was to have let down the wonderful loving believers whom had nurtured and believed in me...What if I infected a fellow believer...I was filled with a self loathing and shame that is unfathomable to any who have not been driven to that place.
I parked at the banks of the red river and contemplated driving in....NOT out of selfishness...NOT out of narcissism....but out of a sense of utter and complete hopelessness...a feeling of no where to turn...no way to fix it...
I felt that I was a danger to any whom I came in contact with in my spiritually depraved state. Better to kill myself than infect someone I loved with a devil spirit :(
It is a dark dark place...to be driven there by those whom you trust to guide you spiritually, those in whom you have been taught to obey implicitly.... those who claimed that their view was God`s....is unconscionable.
I think that is why reading of these suicides affect me so profoundly.... I came within an eye lash myself... anybody who hasn`t been there..... staring down into that dark abyss ...it`s a pain that one can never understand.
The leaders whom promised to guide us ...who then savagely destroyed every bit of self worth and declared us a stench in the nostrils of God....those whom convinced us that that the world would be safer without our presence ... those who drove us so low that we didn`t even dare to turn to God for help....are as damnably culpable as if they pulled the trigger on the gun.
1974 - Dead - Sandra Ann Sullivan - committed suicide one month after becoming a secretary at Way Hdq. in New Knoxville, Ohio.
I thought those on staff had a dream job of sorts.. near "the word".. a lot of people burned bridges to get there..
about a year before I left, I met with a lady on staff who I knew prior to going on staff. I said, "wow, you must be so *blessed* to be here.." It was the first time I got that severe of a reaction where I saw somebody's face go pale, and eyes roll up in their head.. and there was no joy left .. not like I remembered from five years previously.
she basically sacrificed a profession to go there.
Somehow, I had the illusion that those at der vey hq practiced the "be especially good to those in the household" routine.
If one still believes the bible after all of this.. doesn't it say something like "woe unto him who offends (causes to stumble) one of these little ones.."? Note.. it doesn't attach blame to the one who stumbled.. or fell. Doesn't attach a minimal percentage of blame to the victim because of their weakness..
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oldiesman
Anyone who sat through PFAL and believed in "the law of believing" had the option of deciding for himself what he would believe. So when one heard "if you leave the ministry you will die", one had a choice to believe that or reject that, depending upon one's own choice. Or, choose to have faith in God and in the scriptures with verses like "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." So I think it was ultimately up to each individual.
I don't think so. Just so we're clear on this, I disagree. I don't believe people stayed in twi or the corps because they feared that if they left, they would die. However, I can see that upon being told "the hedge of protection" will be gone if one left, it's possible some believers fell into that thought process for a time AFTER THEY LEFT. The thought crossed my mind too for the first few days. However, after more reading of scripture, retemories, SIT, faith in God, and common horse sense (like seeing all the folks who already left who didn't die after all) that fear vanished quickly.
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waysider
Apparently you must have lived a sheltered life.
What exactly does the term "grease spot by Midnight" mean to you?
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JeffSjo
That sure brings it home for me Waysider.
Dear Oldiesman,
I'm glad that you were strong enough to deal with it as you say, but it's clear to me that many weren't as fortunate to have dealt with the mental abuse/persuasion in such a clear fashion as you say that you dealt with it.
I think that if you could manage to relate emotionally to those of us who felt the intimidation in a bigger way you might eventually be able to give folks a little comfort for their troubles, or at the very least your councel would seem more palatable to folks.
Oldiesman, we are talking about ruined lives here, do you feel compasion about that or not? If you feel some compassion for them then you need to figure out how to show it IMO. I really believe that would make a difference for you.
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oldiesman
Well obviously it was bull, especially since the same man wrote the following in his loyalty letter of March 1989:
This certainly is written confirmation that one may walk with God outside of twi. So I think it really was up to each individual what to believe. I'm not saying some didn't buy into the "greasepot by midnight" line as a cause for concern; but to me it's a red herring. I can't buy into the idea that it was a reason some now say kept some folks inside twi for years, with all the other evidence we have available to us. My basic belief is this: generally, participants stayed as long as twi was in some way beneficial to them. They left, when twi became un-beneficial to them. Of course there will always be some exceptions.
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JeffSjo
Dear Oldiesman,
In my splinter group the public line was most often reasonable, but the private manipulations were vile and reprehensible.
It looks to me like my splinter group learned this from TWI.
P.S. I added a comment for you on my last post.
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waysider
There were people whose deaths were exploited as a vehicle to illustrate what could and/or would happen if you dared to leave the safety of the household. I'm quite sure there are many here who could cite examples of this very practice.
You have no way of knowing, Oldies, who believed this or to what extent. When you say people did not believe it, you are merely offering a speculative opinion.
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now I see
Here's an example of this backward thinking promoted by vic in an excerpt from Karl Kahler's book "the Cult that Snapped",
http://www.ex-way.com/excerpts/chapter14.htm
"Jim Doop, who buried Gary Dunhoff, told me how he died, as did Del Duncan, and John Desmond gave the same account to the Indianapolis Star. Dunhoff came out of Doop's fellowship in Mill Valley, and was in the Corps with Doop in 1974-75, as was Desmond. The Corps was on the infamous "colon cleanse," a mandatory three-week diet that involved one week of consuming only water mixed with a volcanic ash solution while taking laxatives and vitamins. In the second and third week, food was gradually reintroduced. The aim was to clean out the colon, for which enemas were also used.
Desmond told the Star that Dunhoff got tired of the colon cleanse and drove into St. Marys to buy a bag of cookies. Doop said Dunhoff and another member, John Nave, went into town for another reason and did pick up a bag of cookies, but he called it "a very spontaneous thing." On their way back, their car was struck by a woman driving 40 miles an hour.
"Gary was in intensive care for 12 days, and my wife and I had to take care of his mom and dad while they were there," said Doop. "We were with them round the clock."
Back at Headquarters, said Desmond, "We were told that we were going to pray this guy out of the hospital because we were spiritual macho men. Dr. Wierwille really believed and had us believing that no one could die while in the Way Corps."
Dunhoff died anyway. Wierwille called a meeting to announce his death. Then, said Desmond, Wierwille told everyone who had cheated on the colon cleanse to raise their hands. Then he told everyone who knew about the cheating to raise their hands. Everyone with a hand in the air, he said, was directly responsible for Gary Dunhoff's death.
"You were taught to follow the leader, right or wrong," said Desmond. "After that God show, if you didn't believe it before, you did at that point."
Doop said they buried Gary in the woods at Headquarters. "Probably the most devilish thing that came out of it was that John Nave was completely ostracized by Wierwille, treated very, very poorly," said Doop. "He never got off his back. John did everything he possibly could to redeem himself."
Del Duncan was in Wierwille's office when John Nave came to talk to him, seeking forgiveness more than a year after Gary's death. "And as he walked in the door, these are the exact words that Wierwille used: 'Well, how's the murderer of Gary Dunhoff doing today?' And John never got over that. It's been a scar in his life ever since. He's still a very damaged man from that."
I showed Duncan the "Death List," asking if he knew anyone on it besides Gary, and he said yes when he came to the following:
1974 - Dead - Sandra Ann Sullivan - committed suicide one month after becoming a secretary at Way Hdq. in New Knoxville, Ohio.
Del said she had been sexually involved with Wierwille. "She had already been involved before she became a secretary, with Wierwille and Howard Allen, and the impact on her was so great that she took her life," he said. "I talked to her and counseled with her a little bit, and also went before the Board of Trustees on it to try to get some reckoning about what this girl was going through, and others, but it was to no avail.""
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rascal
Yup Waysider...Annanias and Saphira were trotted out as the consequences for breaking ones word to God...lying...if one found themselves wanting to leave the way corpes....
The fear of losing God`s love and protection were the weapons used to ensure compliance. The threat of physical harm is easy to face...the thought of being a dissapointment to God...of having to live life without him???? Unthinkable
Peter walking on the water was the example used to show what happened when you obeyed your leaders orders without thought....his sinking when he allowed his 5 senses to distract him from his leaders orders....
The promise of seeing a miracle for obedience to our leaders was dangled as a carrot before us...with the threat of losing our blessing and sinking the goad that prompted us from behind to ensure implicit obedience.
Is Donna Martindales tirade against Art Poling when he lost his daughter in an air plane wreck still around here?
To say that anybody besides yourself stayed through the horrendous abuse because we liked it or felt it beneficial oldies, is a rediculous assumption on your part...to assign this motive to others is mere speculation and not very honest.
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rascal
THAT is despicable bnis. It was vindictive and cruel.
I didn`t know about that poor girl :(
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waysider
I remember hearing about Gary's death when I was in Fellow laborers.
The story we got was that wierwille had gotten revelation that no one should leave HQ that particular day.
Supposedly the revelation he got was that whoever left would die and that is why he gave the order for no one to leave.
Did he ever give such an order? I don't know. That's not the point. The point is that we (there were 49 or 50 of us) were specifically told that to disobey the orders of a MOG could very well bring us the same consequences. So, yes, we were told that disobedience to a MOG(and I'm pretty certain quiting the Corps or TWI would fall into that category by their definition.) was unacceptable.
And you know, it never really occurred to me until this moment that this contradicts the Advanced Class session where it is taught that revelation is never given unless there is ultimate profit from it.
In fact, the example given in the AC is of someone getting revelation that a certain airplane flight is going to crash. Wierwille said God would not give such revelation unless the person subsequently used the information to stop the flight.
Airplane crash, car wreck-----What's the difference? He didn't stop it so his so called revelation was bogus by his own definition.(Which of course he got from someone else anyway.)
Wasn't there another such story that wierwille got revelation someone would drown in the duck pond if a fence wasn't put around it?
The guy was a mental case, not a MOG!
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
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WordWolf
Ultimately, it WAS up to each individual. We all should have said "you're speaking lies" and stormed off.
However, I don't absolve those who indoctrinated others with lies from responsibility.
Except, of course, we've had posters who said they were TOLD that-if they left- they or their family would die, period.One had a leader YELL at them "WHICH OF YOUR FAMILY MEMBERS DO YOU WANT TO DIE NEXT?"
It's a lot more obvious in hindsight.
In some situations when we were in, SOME of us (not me, and, presumably, not you)
it was set up as if that was the natural consequence of "leaving the household."
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WordWolf
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/audio-sound-clips.html
Clip 5 from the top.
As someone said once, "these things were not done in a corner",
this was common knowledge.
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brideofjc
Hi Jeff,
I guess in the first place which bible version are you reading? KJV? Uhmmmm.....KJV is notorious for sugar coating the VERY RAW HEBREW
When it says that Abishag
was KEEPING HIM WARM.....it was more than snuggling or playing footsies. More like attempting to get David's blood racing.....Uhmmmm......
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WordWolf
Something that didn't hit me until now.....
Notice how vpw puts the blame on the woman who was brought in.
rather than the King or anyone in power who BROUGHT her in.
SHE was the sex fiend- but someone else BROUGHT her in
Some people will think that means nothing. I think the rest of us will say that says a LOT about the speaker.
I've read this before, but I don't know how I missed it until now.
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Ham
Whatever happened to John Desmond, does anybody know?
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brideofjc
He also did that with David's first wife as well....
2 Sam 6:21-23
First Michal despised him in her heart and then she rebuked him for dancing naked and letting servant girls see the king. The text states simply that David said that the servant girls would honor him (i.e. lie with him naked and have sex) but in contrast David wouldn't have sex with Michal anymore after that day. Then in v 23 the text simply states that Michal had no children by David until the day of her death.
It used to really bug me that VPW always taught that GOD HAD STRICKEN HER BARREN because she DESPISED THE KING! When in reality it was simply a matter of not having sex with your husband anymore. Yup that would tend to make you barren, maybe not physically barren as it being something wrong with Michal, but barren nevertheless.
I never really thought about this until now, but it probably is a sure bet that since he was so fond of molesting women and even drugging them to get them into bed with him, that deep down he was a misogynist. Many abusers who are super critical are really attempting to cover up the truth that they really hate women. Perhaps he did. That's why rape is a hate crime.
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WhiteDove
Well that's a nice theory Lindy as theories go, except for the fact that what people believed was their own choice, we all have free will to choose what we choose to accept, or not accept. I can give you examples of people who did not believe that as well. So? Some believed it, some did not, that does not validate the comparison either way it's a matter of opinion how you want to see things ,That's Agenda by the way. You assume you are right because that's the way you want the outcome to be. I could assume the same based on my examples. The truth is neither validates the comparison as I said. And then to further assume that because someone will not accept your opinion as fact, that they have no sympathy is a giant leap with no reasoning to support it. It is two entirely different things.
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oldiesman
All that goes on in a persons mind before committing suicide, I don't know. But I was listening to the Dennis Prager podcast one day and the topic was suicide... Dennis said something that stuck with me "suicide is selfish and narcissistic". It impressed upon me that no matter how hurt, desperate, depressed or insane a person may be because of relations with others, they still share in a level of responsibility for their own thoughts and actions.
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Nottawayfer
Geez Oldies.....compassion is due when a person gets to that kind of low.
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waysider
Does that same standard apply to depraved cult leaders?
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oldiesman
That goes without saying.
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rascal
Spoken truly as someone who has never felt that level of hopelessness and pain.
I remember when I was pushed to the brink myself....
I remember thinking when the tc`s wife declared me possessed....I was terrified, I was disgusted that I could be filled with such evil, I felt like I was carrying a disgusting disease that I could pass on...I was so ashamed ...completely bewildered ..not understanding how it could have happened ...not knowing how to fix it...Who could I go to? How could I admit to my depraved condition....How ashamed I was to have let down the wonderful loving believers whom had nurtured and believed in me...What if I infected a fellow believer...I was filled with a self loathing and shame that is unfathomable to any who have not been driven to that place.
I parked at the banks of the red river and contemplated driving in....NOT out of selfishness...NOT out of narcissism....but out of a sense of utter and complete hopelessness...a feeling of no where to turn...no way to fix it...
I felt that I was a danger to any whom I came in contact with in my spiritually depraved state. Better to kill myself than infect someone I loved with a devil spirit :(
It is a dark dark place...to be driven there by those whom you trust to guide you spiritually, those in whom you have been taught to obey implicitly.... those who claimed that their view was God`s....is unconscionable.
I think that is why reading of these suicides affect me so profoundly.... I came within an eye lash myself... anybody who hasn`t been there..... staring down into that dark abyss ...it`s a pain that one can never understand.
The leaders whom promised to guide us ...who then savagely destroyed every bit of self worth and declared us a stench in the nostrils of God....those whom convinced us that that the world would be safer without our presence ... those who drove us so low that we didn`t even dare to turn to God for help....are as damnably culpable as if they pulled the trigger on the gun.
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oldiesman
Edited - removed personal attack
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Ham
I thought those on staff had a dream job of sorts.. near "the word".. a lot of people burned bridges to get there..
about a year before I left, I met with a lady on staff who I knew prior to going on staff. I said, "wow, you must be so *blessed* to be here.." It was the first time I got that severe of a reaction where I saw somebody's face go pale, and eyes roll up in their head.. and there was no joy left .. not like I remembered from five years previously.
she basically sacrificed a profession to go there.
Somehow, I had the illusion that those at der vey hq practiced the "be especially good to those in the household" routine.
If one still believes the bible after all of this.. doesn't it say something like "woe unto him who offends (causes to stumble) one of these little ones.."? Note.. it doesn't attach blame to the one who stumbled.. or fell. Doesn't attach a minimal percentage of blame to the victim because of their weakness..
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