Do I remember correctly that you've stated that you're 18 years old?
Your posts seem to be from someone with a little more experience than I can typically credit to an 18 year old. But then Alexander the great ruled a lot by the time he was 18.
Whether you are 18 or not, I enjoy your thought provoking posts.
I often find myself asking questions about my faith, whether they be religious/spiritual questions relating to Christianity in particular, or philosophical questions relating to the existence of God or to His supposed attributes and actions in general. Or I find myself putting myself in the place of a follower of a different religion or the place of an agnostic or atheist, and play their role in what they would say, what their objections would be to my arguments for or against a certain subject, etc.
It sounds kind of funny, I know. But it's a good thing to question. It strengthens your faith and you learn something new about your faith as a result. :)
Does anyone else do this?
~Phil
Hello, Brushstroke
I agree that it can be enlightening and beneficial to consider a variety of viewpoints on any given subject.
One problem you will encounter with Way followers, though, is that they are specifically taught that doing so will ultimately lead to their failure. This comes from a session of the PFAL class titled Body, Soul and Spirit . (session #7) It was taught in this session that there were five steps that led to Eve's downfall. The first, and most critical of these steps, was that she let her guard down by considering what the serpent was saying. Trying to discuss alternate meanings with a wayfer is like trying to send spam to someone who has a state of the art firewall. If you can get past the firewall you might at least stand a chance of having them consider what you are proposing. Even today, decades later, there are people who are afraid to let go of this harmful conditioning.
I agree that it can be enlightening and beneficial to consider a variety of viewpoints on any given subject.
One problem you will encounter with Way followers, though, is that they are specifically taught that doing so will ultimately lead to their failure. This comes from a session of the PFAL class titled Body, Soul and Spirit . (session #7) It was taught in this session that there were five steps that led to Eve's downfall. The first, and most critical of these steps, was that she let her guard down by considering what the serpent was saying. Trying to discuss alternate meanings with a wayfer is like trying to send spam to someone who has a state of the art firewall. If you can get past the firewall you might at least stand a chance of having them consider what you are proposing. Even today, decades later, there are people who are afraid to let go of this harmful conditioning.
Waysider,
Then I wonder if there is a way I could speak with them on their own terms. The Apostle Paul, when he would preach as recorded in Acts, always referred to the knowledge that his hearers already had, and he would expand on what they already knew. To the Jews, for instance, he would often relate to their knowledge of the Scriptures and the Law of Moses, saying that Christ fulfilled the Law and the Prophets and proved from the Scriptures how He is of the bloodline of King David. To the Gentile worshipers in Athens, he used one of their own altars to proclaim Christ. Any thoughts?
~Phil
Dear Brushstroke,
Do I remember correctly that you've stated that you're 18 years old?
Your posts seem to be from someone with a little more experience than I can typically credit to an 18 year old. But then Alexander the great ruled a lot by the time he was 18.
Whether you are 18 or not, I enjoy your thought provoking posts.
since leaving TWI in 1997, i have spent a number of years studying (and studying with) with leaders and people of many different faiths (as well as "non-faiths")
and some of my inter-religious studies were in the context of the history of hospice, rites of passage, and states and stages of consciousness
in general...i highly recommend regularly questioning one's faith as a necessary component of one's spiritual practice
and i'll just say, that taking the perspective of another happens via quality dialogue
...which happens via quality dialogical inquiry
...which is like Jeffsjo wrote..."good questions"
for example...there are centuries-old dialogical art forms that utilize what are called "open and honest questions"
where, what makes them genuinely "open" and/or "honest" is honed and practiced to a high degree
and applied in all forms of mediation and peace-making...as well as in one's private prayer life
and...
as ive often mentioned around here in the past
it seems to me that the biblical "speaking in tongues"
has at least something to do with higher forms of dialogue
(thus higher forms of inquiry)
that allows and facilitates authentic inter-religious discovery
For twenty years, a group of spiritual seekers from many religious traditions met in various places around the United States under the rubric of the Snowmass Conferences to engage in the deepest form of interreligious dialogue. The experience was intimate and trusting, transformative and inspiring. To encourage openness and honesty, no audio or visual recording was made of, and no articles were written about, the encounters.
When these encounters came to an end, it was agreed that reflections on what had happened emotionally, spiritually, philosophically, and theologically during the Snowmass dialogues should be written down. The result is The Common Heart.
Here is an extraordinary exploration of the wealth of the world's spiritual traditions combined with dialogue from the heart about the differences and similarities between their paths of wisdom. Participants include Fr. Thomas Keating, Roshi Bernie Glassman, Swami Atmarupananda, Dr. Ibrahim Gamard, Imam Bilal Hyde, Pema Chodron, Rabbi Henoch Dov Hoffman, and many others.
Here is an example of the types of things you will find in that particular session:
(Page 33/PFAL syllabus)
Natural Knowledge
Five senses can see the results and manifestation of Designer, but not the Designer.
1. Natural knowledge cannot find God so natural man cannot believe in God. "Pure
reason" leads to the highest science of the five senses which is philosophy; there
speculation sets in which leads to theories, defeat and destruction.
--------and that's just one little paragraph out of a 36 hour long emotionally charged class. <_<
So in a nutshell, this piece of Session #7 is saying that we should not rely on our own knowledge and reason, but trust TWI's knowledge and reason because it's directed by God?
Argumentum ad verecundiam, it sounds like. Ahh...gotta love logical fallacies.
So in a nutshell, this piece of Session #7 is saying that we should not rely on our own knowledge and reason, but trust TWI's knowledge and reason because it's directed by God?
Argumentum ad verecundiam, it sounds like. Ahh...gotta love logical fallacies.
I am also tryin to digest all the insightful responses.
I can only say for myself that even though I left the Way, my mind often uses "Way Logic" in response to many things...
Examples ....
"Aw hes just an unbeliever"
"Serves them right, they're off the Word!"
"Oh oh, those people are obviously born of the wrong seed"
"I can tell that guy is wrongly dividing the Word!"
"I wonder if a devil spirit is causing this situation?"
"I better just keep speaking in tongues as I envision deliverance from this situation"
"Aw man I'm way in debt, I should have been "tithing" and this never would have happenned!"
I could go on and on but you get my point....We should have our own class or topic that "dispels" Way teachings/doctrines and allows/ helps people to begin thinking in a non Cult way
We should have our own class or topic that "dispels" Way teachings/doctrines and allows/ helps people to begin thinking in a non Cult way
This would be a very good idea. I know there's "Actual Errors in PFAL" but that only seems to deal with basic doctrinal statements that are in contrast with orthodox Christianity and with Wierwille's plagiarism and his misunderstanding of the Greek language.
It would be nice to have all of the information in one place. To have something much more comprehensive, like a catechism of some sort, that goes into things like the very ethos of the ministry and its' leaders and TWI's distraught history, with a biblical response or something from TWI documents to support each statement. Perhaps also something, within this guide, could be thought of that would be a helpful psychological guide for both Wayfers and ex-Wayfers to find ways to think for themselves and stop relying on TWI jargon and doctrine.
Cool topic, Brushstroke! I think it’s a good way to develop our belief system – by turning our critical thinking inward. It took me a few years after leaving TWI to appreciate the critical thinking process. I like what you said about putting yourself inside another person’s belief system. That’s the value of another viewpoint – looking at something from a totally different angle.
It’s a great diagnostic tool – not that you discover absolute truth – but that you uncover assumptions or some fallacies - in regards to your belief system. At least you’ve become more aware of background processes. Many beliefs that were so firmly set in stone when I was in TWI – are now in a state of flux. And that doesn’t bother me – that’s part of life’s journey… exploring…there’s a lot of things that still remain a mystery.
I know there's "Actual Errors in PFAL" but that only seems to deal with basic doctrinal statements that are in contrast with orthodox Christianity and with Wierwille's plagiarism and his misunderstanding of the Greek language.
The "Actual Errors" thread deals mainly with errors in fact that can be verified, not doctrinal interpretations. But that's only my interpretation
Not every minute, but it's good to think things through, especially one's "sacred cows."
Dude...not the cows...anything but the cows. :ph34r:
Brushstroke, on another thread I mentioned John Juddes, a Missouri Synod (Lutheran) pastor whose website I think is empire7.net would be a good choice to pm about you and Stephanie, and these threads you have particpated. John took PFAL, or Pilaf as some would call it, and is very familar about TWI and the questions you have posed here. He goes beyond what Raf O talked about. Wishing you the best. TLB
Cool topic, Brushstroke! I think it’s a good way to develop our belief system – by turning our critical thinking inward. It took me a few years after leaving TWI to appreciate the critical thinking process. I like what you said about putting yourself inside another person’s belief system. That’s the value of another viewpoint – looking at something from a totally different angle.
It’s a great diagnostic tool – not that you discover absolute truth – but that you uncover assumptions or some fallacies - in regards to your belief system. At least you’ve become more aware of background processes. Many beliefs that were so firmly set in stone when I was in TWI – are now in a state of flux. And that doesn’t bother me – that’s part of life’s journey… exploring…there’s a lot of things that still remain a mystery.
Yes!
The only way to truly understand your belief system is to question it and see why others disagree. It's all about opening your mind, gaining mutual understanding, and seeing something from a different angle. Of course, despite being open-minded one should always keep hold of his own convictions. And I completely agree, there are many things that remain a mystery, and they should rightly stay that way. We can never know everything. It's one of the things I love about Eastern Orthodoxy--we're not afraid of saying "I don't know."
And...what is this about cows? :blink:
Brushstroke, on another thread I mentioned John Juddes, a Missouri Synod (Lutheran) pastor whose website I think is empire7.net would be a good choice to pm about you and Stephanie, and these threads you have particpated. John took PFAL, or Pilaf as some would call it, and is very familar about TWI and the questions you have posed here. He goes beyond what Raf O talked about. Wishing you the best. TLB
You know, I never really thought about contacting him. Thanks!
Then I wonder if there is a way I could speak with them on their own terms. The Apostle Paul, when he would preach as recorded in Acts, always referred to the knowledge that his hearers already had, and he would expand on what they already knew. To the Jews, for instance, he would often relate to their knowledge of the Scriptures and the Law of Moses, saying that Christ fulfilled the Law and the Prophets and proved from the Scriptures how He is of the bloodline of King David. To the Gentile worshipers in Athens, he used one of their own altars to proclaim Christ. Any thoughts?
~Phil
Hah, yes Jeff, I really am 18.
Sounds more like you're 48 and instead of a bad brushstroke, you had a bad keystroke!
The most fundamental thing that every Christian should do is to read outside of your comfort zone, this will pique your curiosity and challenge your faith tenets and you will soon find out how much you really know about your own faith. However, one thing to always remember...I know it is common sense, but it's amazing how many people either overlook or forget it, is that just because some author put it in a book, doesn't mean it is God's truth. Only the Bible has that audition down pat.
Do I really sound like I'm 48? Rofl! I'm just eloquent my speech, geez. O_o
And what about a bad keystroke? lol
Yeah, you know, hit the wrong key on the pc, hit a 1 instead of the real 4. If you really are just 18, geez louise, you should be Pope by the time you're 38.
Yes, you do sound far older than your years, too much wisdom packed in there, which took most of us out here 20-30 years to get to this place.
Yeah, perhaps you are only 18...a bad keystroke is from the actual TYPING era on TYPEWRITERS, and everytime you moved your finger, it was counted as a keystroke! Now, I'm dating myself.
I often find myself asking questions about my faith, whether they be religious/spiritual questions relating to Christianity in particular, or philosophical questions relating to the existence of God or to His supposed attributes and actions in general. Or I find myself putting myself in the place of a follower of a different religion or the place of an agnostic or atheist, and play their role in what they would say, what their objections would be to my arguments for or against a certain subject, etc.
It sounds kind of funny, I know. But it's a good thing to question. It strengthens your faith and you learn something new about your faith as a result. :)
Does anyone else do this?
~Phil
Been doing this for years and years...it's an adventure!
Not sure what you mean by "your faith" though. I hold to no particular religious "belief system" anymore, but rather try to stay in touch with my intuition and act with compassion (not always successful, for sure) which is my way of describing a spiritual part of my life...
Have you checked out any books by Karen Armstrong who writes wonderful histories of religion? I highly recommend her work.
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George Aar
Yeah, I did.
That's why I'm now an agnostic...
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WordWolf
Not every minute, but it's good to think things through, especially one's "sacred cows."
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JeffSjo
Dear Brushstroke,
Do I remember correctly that you've stated that you're 18 years old?
Your posts seem to be from someone with a little more experience than I can typically credit to an 18 year old. But then Alexander the great ruled a lot by the time he was 18.
Whether you are 18 or not, I enjoy your thought provoking posts.
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waysider
Hello, Brushstroke
I agree that it can be enlightening and beneficial to consider a variety of viewpoints on any given subject.
One problem you will encounter with Way followers, though, is that they are specifically taught that doing so will ultimately lead to their failure. This comes from a session of the PFAL class titled Body, Soul and Spirit . (session #7) It was taught in this session that there were five steps that led to Eve's downfall. The first, and most critical of these steps, was that she let her guard down by considering what the serpent was saying. Trying to discuss alternate meanings with a wayfer is like trying to send spam to someone who has a state of the art firewall. If you can get past the firewall you might at least stand a chance of having them consider what you are proposing. Even today, decades later, there are people who are afraid to let go of this harmful conditioning.
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JeffSjo
Good point waysider.
Personally I'm more afraid of bad answers than I am of good questions.
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Brushstroke
Waysider,
Then I wonder if there is a way I could speak with them on their own terms. The Apostle Paul, when he would preach as recorded in Acts, always referred to the knowledge that his hearers already had, and he would expand on what they already knew. To the Jews, for instance, he would often relate to their knowledge of the Scriptures and the Law of Moses, saying that Christ fulfilled the Law and the Prophets and proved from the Scriptures how He is of the bloodline of King David. To the Gentile worshipers in Athens, he used one of their own altars to proclaim Christ. Any thoughts?
~Phil
Hah, yes Jeff, I really am 18.
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sirguessalot
welcome to the GSC, Brushstroke
since leaving TWI in 1997, i have spent a number of years studying (and studying with) with leaders and people of many different faiths (as well as "non-faiths")and some of my inter-religious studies were in the context of the history of hospice, rites of passage, and states and stages of consciousness
in general...i highly recommend regularly questioning one's faith as a necessary component of one's spiritual practice
and i'll just say, that taking the perspective of another happens via quality dialogue
...which happens via quality dialogical inquiry
...which is like Jeffsjo wrote..."good questions"
for example...there are centuries-old dialogical art forms that utilize what are called "open and honest questions"
where, what makes them genuinely "open" and/or "honest" is honed and practiced to a high degree
and applied in all forms of mediation and peace-making...as well as in one's private prayer life
and...
as ive often mentioned around here in the past
it seems to me that the biblical "speaking in tongues"
has at least something to do with higher forms of dialogue
(thus higher forms of inquiry)
that allows and facilitates authentic inter-religious discovery
as well as deeper inward discovery
...
here are a few writers i can recommend...
Karen Armstrong
Zalman Schachter-Shalomi
Bede Griffiths
and i can highly recommend this unique book on the subject...
The Common Heart
all space and grace...
+ODD
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waysider
Here is an example of the types of things you will find in that particular session:
(Page 33/PFAL syllabus)
Natural Knowledge
Five senses can see the results and manifestation of Designer, but not the Designer.
1. Natural knowledge cannot find God so natural man cannot believe in God. "Pure
reason" leads to the highest science of the five senses which is philosophy; there
speculation sets in which leads to theories, defeat and destruction.
--------and that's just one little paragraph out of a 36 hour long emotionally charged class. <_<
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Brushstroke
So in a nutshell, this piece of Session #7 is saying that we should not rely on our own knowledge and reason, but trust TWI's knowledge and reason because it's directed by God?
Argumentum ad verecundiam, it sounds like. Ahh...gotta love logical fallacies.
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waysider
By Jove!! I think you've got it!!
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Steveo
Awesome topic!
I am also tryin to digest all the insightful responses.
I can only say for myself that even though I left the Way, my mind often uses "Way Logic" in response to many things...
Examples ....
"Aw hes just an unbeliever"
"Serves them right, they're off the Word!"
"Oh oh, those people are obviously born of the wrong seed"
"I can tell that guy is wrongly dividing the Word!"
"I wonder if a devil spirit is causing this situation?"
"I better just keep speaking in tongues as I envision deliverance from this situation"
"Aw man I'm way in debt, I should have been "tithing" and this never would have happenned!"
I could go on and on but you get my point....We should have our own class or topic that "dispels" Way teachings/doctrines and allows/ helps people to begin thinking in a non Cult way
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Brushstroke
This would be a very good idea. I know there's "Actual Errors in PFAL" but that only seems to deal with basic doctrinal statements that are in contrast with orthodox Christianity and with Wierwille's plagiarism and his misunderstanding of the Greek language.
It would be nice to have all of the information in one place. To have something much more comprehensive, like a catechism of some sort, that goes into things like the very ethos of the ministry and its' leaders and TWI's distraught history, with a biblical response or something from TWI documents to support each statement. Perhaps also something, within this guide, could be thought of that would be a helpful psychological guide for both Wayfers and ex-Wayfers to find ways to think for themselves and stop relying on TWI jargon and doctrine.
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T-Bone
Cool topic, Brushstroke! I think it’s a good way to develop our belief system – by turning our critical thinking inward. It took me a few years after leaving TWI to appreciate the critical thinking process. I like what you said about putting yourself inside another person’s belief system. That’s the value of another viewpoint – looking at something from a totally different angle.
It’s a great diagnostic tool – not that you discover absolute truth – but that you uncover assumptions or some fallacies - in regards to your belief system. At least you’ve become more aware of background processes. Many beliefs that were so firmly set in stone when I was in TWI – are now in a state of flux. And that doesn’t bother me – that’s part of life’s journey… exploring…there’s a lot of things that still remain a mystery.
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Oakspear
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waysider
I am done "running with the cows".
That's it. Kapoot. No more.
Ain't gonna "run to the tree and back" and you can't make me!
No more Pumas, Brooks, sweat suits or anything else
Phhhtttt!
And maybe I'm going out on a limb here, but I think WG and another FLO here "ain't gonna run no more" with me .
HA!! Put that in your sprout jar and rinse it!
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Brushstroke, on another thread I mentioned John Juddes, a Missouri Synod (Lutheran) pastor whose website I think is empire7.net would be a good choice to pm about you and Stephanie, and these threads you have particpated. John took PFAL, or Pilaf as some would call it, and is very familar about TWI and the questions you have posed here. He goes beyond what Raf O talked about. Wishing you the best. TLB
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Brushstroke
Yes!
The only way to truly understand your belief system is to question it and see why others disagree. It's all about opening your mind, gaining mutual understanding, and seeing something from a different angle. Of course, despite being open-minded one should always keep hold of his own convictions. And I completely agree, there are many things that remain a mystery, and they should rightly stay that way. We can never know everything. It's one of the things I love about Eastern Orthodoxy--we're not afraid of saying "I don't know."
And...what is this about cows? :blink:
You know, I never really thought about contacting him. Thanks!
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waysider
It's just some silly stuff that happened 30+ years ago.
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brideofjc
Sounds more like you're 48 and instead of a bad brushstroke, you had a bad keystroke!
The most fundamental thing that every Christian should do is to read outside of your comfort zone, this will pique your curiosity and challenge your faith tenets and you will soon find out how much you really know about your own faith. However, one thing to always remember...I know it is common sense, but it's amazing how many people either overlook or forget it, is that just because some author put it in a book, doesn't mean it is God's truth. Only the Bible has that audition down pat.
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Brushstroke
Do I really sound like I'm 48? Rofl! I'm just eloquent my speech, geez. O_o
And what about a bad keystroke? lol
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brideofjc
Yeah, you know, hit the wrong key on the pc, hit a 1 instead of the real 4. If you really are just 18, geez louise, you should be Pope by the time you're 38.
Yes, you do sound far older than your years, too much wisdom packed in there, which took most of us out here 20-30 years to get to this place.
Yeah, perhaps you are only 18...a bad keystroke is from the actual TYPING era on TYPEWRITERS, and everytime you moved your finger, it was counted as a keystroke! Now, I'm dating myself.
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Sushi
I date myself too, but that's because no one else will.
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doojable
I've heard that has something to do with "snooty pans"....;)
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penworks
Been doing this for years and years...it's an adventure!
Not sure what you mean by "your faith" though. I hold to no particular religious "belief system" anymore, but rather try to stay in touch with my intuition and act with compassion (not always successful, for sure) which is my way of describing a spiritual part of my life...
Have you checked out any books by Karen Armstrong who writes wonderful histories of religion? I highly recommend her work.
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