Believers Family Class, I guess was supposed to be LCM's version of Christian Family Sex. I took that class too and believe it or not, even though LCM didn't have 8X10 color glossies and was certainly not as graphic, I still found the "principles" (or lack thereof) more harmful and offensive than VPW's class.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
I was a TWI wife. and really, abi, i never had a control issue with my then husband. and i don't remember anyone pressuring him along those lines.
i just might have been in a different time than you or place
?
Ex,
As I recall, you left early on, mid or late '70s. Though TWI taught the husband as head, he was also to love his wife as Christ did the church. It was a mellower time with a lot more love in the ministry. As time went on, we got caught up in the works of the ministry and the love receded.
This led eventually to the legalism and micro-managed absolute control of everthing in the '90s which were The Loy'd Craig's ultimate Nirvana. The first focus of any such total dictatorship is always the family.
More generally, in any group of 100 marriages, you will have many types of male to female interactions. Men will vary from dictators to wife beaters, and leaders to co-workers, submitters. and wussies. Culture, including religion have tremendous infuences on how these interrelationships work.
TWI taught the outer masses one thing, the corps another, and the initiated ones a third. And that changed and became harder of heart as time progressed. It ended in HitLoy's Glorious Micro-managed Third Reich.
VPW told EW in "The Way: Living In Love" that that he respected the man who led him into tongues (J.E. Stiles) because of how he "handled" his wife, when she asked him how long he would be, and he told her it was none of her business!
VPW told his wife to leave her newborn in the hands of relatives because they were going to India.
VPW told men MANY times that they needed to get their wives in line.
VPW left his wife in the house while he stayed in the motorcoach, molesting young followers.
VPW preferred to counsel with my first ex while he was totally drunk, rather than wait for him to sober up and talk to BOTH of us. Even afterward, when I found myself "re-assigned," I was not allowed to talk to the MOG, being told by Don W. that "you will be blessed because you will be with your husband." Yea, I got real blessed -- the only blessing in that decision was that I left HQ, and later TWI and my drinking husband.
Yes, Ephesians states that the husband is to love the wife like Christ loved the church, and gave himself for it, but I never heard how that was to work in practice, and I certainly NEVER saw VPW operate or encourage anything but dictatorship between husbands and wives.
Perhaps muddling the minds of so many men with this doctrine/practice discrepancy is a kind of abuse of power all its own....
shaz, i personally witnessed wierwille "talking" to the holy man of bus driving's wife worse - and i mean a million times worse - than he talked to his dogs
it was absolutely horrible. and the other one just stood there like all was hunky dory (sp?)
Agreed, exy, if you married a good guy, he read Eph. 5 and he heard "GAVE HIMSELF FOR IT," and went with his gut. If you married a jerk, he read Eph. 5 and heard "HEAD OF THE WIFE" and it justified being a jerk. But I think many fell in between, weren't sure how they were to behave with their wives in a godly fashion, and looked to leadership to provide examples of how to deal. Big mistake there!
Well, none of this qualifies as abuse, but by the time I worked at Valahalla, aka 'Wayworld', promiscuity there was apparently rampant. I don't want to overdramatize this, but once I was pushed against the wall by two women, one married & one divorced, both of whom started rubbing me all over and saying, well, all sorts of things. Their willingness to haul off and do such a thing showed, to me, their familiarity with this kind of behavior, and and their expectation that there's be no repercussions. This was just one incident. And I'm no desirable hunk, just an ordinary guy. I shudder to think.
I was saying pretty much what you are. Different things taught at different levels within the structure.
In the early days, to the outer circle, the husband was to love the wife as his queen and as the Proverbs 31 woman she could be. Had it been the absolute lord of the house it became later, Iwould not have spent all those years there.
Maybe I was lucky to kive in good areas with good leaders, but I did not see much of men oppressing women until the '90s.
Being in Mich myself and a 90's Wayfer, I'd say you are correct Bob. I got in in 91 under G****y. I thought he was wonderful and very kind. It was 93-95 when things started getting bad and continued downhill. I got out in 2000.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
Maybe I lived in better areas too. I can't recall ever being told to control my wife. I've taken CF&S and LCM's class and don't remember it being in either. If someone still has a syllabus or notes, perhaps they could check?
The way being the head was explained to me was being in the position of FINAL decision maker. Not the only one involved while sitting on my most holy throne. The examples given left me with the clear understanding that my wife was to be involved as much as possible and I should defer to her in areas where she had more expertise. Overall, still in charge, but in a way that made my wife know she had a say and comfortable trusting me.
The idea of being FINAL decision maker was put to me as someone needing to take responsibility for the decisions. In other words, even if it was my wife's idea, if I went along then I shouldn't try to blame her later. Seemed pretty reasonable to me. That was what I heard in the 80s and 90s.
"One person who spoke with us works with vets who have been sexually abused and the worse case
I ever heard was about this young guy -- maybe 19 or 20 years old he was in Viet Nam."
I have read that story before.
"I wonder how many men had these things happen in TWI that are too ashamed to speak out."
Could be. During my careir I saw some forms of harassment and abuse go from religous and daily to none existant.
I was 'greased' when I reported to my first command. It was common at the time. My colon was packed with lithium grease using a pnumatic greasegun. Granted those were not beleivers, but in the 1970's such things happened in the US military.
"It is rough on either sex, but I think men are slaughtered more for opening their mouths than women. If they were raped by a man then they must be a homo sexual.... If a woman raped them... why are they complaining?"
Yes something like that.
Though it was mentioned at the academy that usually when women do rape men, it is done by a group of women and using weapons.
I don't think men have been conditioned to relate to 'victimization'... the way women do.
Doesn't mean they aren't ~ can't be or won't...
I think the cognicance of it is on an entirely different level ~ although I think that is changing...
The whole 'victim mentality' is very sad though... if anyone chooses to remain there too long ~ and people DO choose it still when it doesn't serve them anymore
... but only they know ~ no one can really judge one's healing in matters of the heart & mind ~ not yet anyway
... you can't x-ray a shattered life or the responses to it like you can a broken bone.
In this area (that a victim is a victim until they survive it, are ready to move on and CAN overcome the obstacles ~ some of it being the time spent 'there' as well) MEN can learn from women and WOMEN can learn from men...
I say this with the most heartful compassion, and also in truth. I don't mean any offense to anyone.
quote:The whole 'victim mentality' is very sad though... if anyone chooses to remain there too long ~ and people DO choose it still when it doesn't serve them anymore
Ginger, I think you're statement is a good one. It sort of reminds me of something said by Naomi Judd in her new book, "Naomi's Breakthrough Guide -- 20 Choices to Transform Your Life." As you may know, Judd has had her share of problems. It says on the jacket of her book that she missed her high school graduation to deliver her first child, endured domestic abuse, lived on welfare, put herself thru nursing school and overcame a life-threatening illness. Wow, that's a lot of hassles. She asked:
quote: Is it possible you are a wound addict? Wound addicts use their problems or illnesses to manipulate others and get attention. They wallow around and marinate in them. The longer they stay identified with their wound, the longer it persists.
Sounds like she was once a participant in the "victim mentality" but overcame it.
[This message was edited by oldiesman on January 12, 2004 at 16:23.]
Oldies, I think you missed another part of GT's post (my emphasis added): "... but only they know ~ no one can really judge one's healing in matters of the heart & mind ~ not yet anyway"
That's so true. How long it takes to heal a physical wound depends on many things: the depth and type of wound, proper conditions for healing, effective treatment, etc. Wounds of the heart are much more complex, and how long it takes for them to heal is different for every person. And how they get there varies widely, too.
I admire Naomi Judd for her courage and tenacity. I also see those qualities in the women who got used and abused in twi.
The implication of your post, if I'm reading it right, is "Hey, Naomi got over it, so why can't everyone else?" Easy: Everyone else isn't Naomi Judd. Each of us has his/her own strengths, weaknesses, resources, pasts, challenges, ad infinitum.
Reminds me of my mother saying to me once, "How can you be crying over [whatever was breaking my teenage heart at the time], when so-and-so has a much worse problem?" I said, "Well, this is MY problem and I'm hurting about it. I feel sorry for so-and-so, but the fact that she has a worse problem than I do doesn't take away my hurt."
That might have been one of the few times I was right as a teenager.
in fact, my "thing" for a long time was trying to get into the heart and pain of the "abuser." that's fine unless you forget about yourself.... there's a lesson that also has to be learned in order to "heal"
quote:in fact, my "thing" for a long time was trying to get into the heart and pain of the "abuser." that's fine unless you forget about yourself.... there's a lesson that also has to be learned in order to "heal"
Just wanted to hear the echo of this one, E. :)-->
A memory shook loose...
At a statewide TC meeting in the mid 90s, I was instructed to keep the single women "from seeking sexual needs from men outside the purity of the household," wink, wink.
And to teach my fellow single men to do the same thing.
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excathedra
"Believers Family Class" what the hell is that ?
you're right, abi, different jokes for different folks
mwah
?
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Abigail
Believers Family Class, I guess was supposed to be LCM's version of Christian Family Sex. I took that class too and believe it or not, even though LCM didn't have 8X10 color glossies and was certainly not as graphic, I still found the "principles" (or lack thereof) more harmful and offensive than VPW's class.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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dabobbada
Ex,
As I recall, you left early on, mid or late '70s. Though TWI taught the husband as head, he was also to love his wife as Christ did the church. It was a mellower time with a lot more love in the ministry. As time went on, we got caught up in the works of the ministry and the love receded.
This led eventually to the legalism and micro-managed absolute control of everthing in the '90s which were The Loy'd Craig's ultimate Nirvana. The first focus of any such total dictatorship is always the family.
More generally, in any group of 100 marriages, you will have many types of male to female interactions. Men will vary from dictators to wife beaters, and leaders to co-workers, submitters. and wussies. Culture, including religion have tremendous infuences on how these interrelationships work.
TWI taught the outer masses one thing, the corps another, and the initiated ones a third. And that changed and became harder of heart as time progressed. It ended in HitLoy's Glorious Micro-managed Third Reich.
Way II much fun for one man.
love ya,
Bob Hansen
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shazdancer
Oh, puh-leeez!
VPW told EW in "The Way: Living In Love" that that he respected the man who led him into tongues (J.E. Stiles) because of how he "handled" his wife, when she asked him how long he would be, and he told her it was none of her business!
VPW told his wife to leave her newborn in the hands of relatives because they were going to India.
VPW told men MANY times that they needed to get their wives in line.
VPW left his wife in the house while he stayed in the motorcoach, molesting young followers.
VPW preferred to counsel with my first ex while he was totally drunk, rather than wait for him to sober up and talk to BOTH of us. Even afterward, when I found myself "re-assigned," I was not allowed to talk to the MOG, being told by Don W. that "you will be blessed because you will be with your husband." Yea, I got real blessed -- the only blessing in that decision was that I left HQ, and later TWI and my drinking husband.
Yes, Ephesians states that the husband is to love the wife like Christ loved the church, and gave himself for it, but I never heard how that was to work in practice, and I certainly NEVER saw VPW operate or encourage anything but dictatorship between husbands and wives.
Perhaps muddling the minds of so many men with this doctrine/practice discrepancy is a kind of abuse of power all its own....
Regards,
Shaz
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excathedra
i think i was just married to a decent guy....
shaz, i personally witnessed wierwille "talking" to the holy man of bus driving's wife worse - and i mean a million times worse - than he talked to his dogs
it was absolutely horrible. and the other one just stood there like all was hunky dory (sp?)
?
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shazdancer
Agreed, exy, if you married a good guy, he read Eph. 5 and he heard "GAVE HIMSELF FOR IT," and went with his gut. If you married a jerk, he read Eph. 5 and heard "HEAD OF THE WIFE" and it justified being a jerk. But I think many fell in between, weren't sure how they were to behave with their wives in a godly fashion, and looked to leadership to provide examples of how to deal. Big mistake there!
Regards,
Shaz
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TheEvan
Well, none of this qualifies as abuse, but by the time I worked at Valahalla, aka 'Wayworld', promiscuity there was apparently rampant. I don't want to overdramatize this, but once I was pushed against the wall by two women, one married & one divorced, both of whom started rubbing me all over and saying, well, all sorts of things. Their willingness to haul off and do such a thing showed, to me, their familiarity with this kind of behavior, and and their expectation that there's be no repercussions. This was just one incident. And I'm no desirable hunk, just an ordinary guy. I shudder to think.
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Abigail
Evan, if the touching was unwanted, it was abuse, to say the least.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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dabobbada
Shaz and Ex,
I was saying pretty much what you are. Different things taught at different levels within the structure.
In the early days, to the outer circle, the husband was to love the wife as his queen and as the Proverbs 31 woman she could be. Had it been the absolute lord of the house it became later, Iwould not have spent all those years there.
Maybe I was lucky to kive in good areas with good leaders, but I did not see much of men oppressing women until the '90s.
Way II much fun for one man.
love ya,
Bob Hansen
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Abigail
Being in Mich myself and a 90's Wayfer, I'd say you are correct Bob. I got in in 91 under G****y. I thought he was wonderful and very kind. It was 93-95 when things started getting bad and continued downhill. I got out in 2000.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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JustThinking
Maybe I lived in better areas too. I can't recall ever being told to control my wife. I've taken CF&S and LCM's class and don't remember it being in either. If someone still has a syllabus or notes, perhaps they could check?
The way being the head was explained to me was being in the position of FINAL decision maker. Not the only one involved while sitting on my most holy throne. The examples given left me with the clear understanding that my wife was to be involved as much as possible and I should defer to her in areas where she had more expertise. Overall, still in charge, but in a way that made my wife know she had a say and comfortable trusting me.
The idea of being FINAL decision maker was put to me as someone needing to take responsibility for the decisions. In other words, even if it was my wife's idea, if I went along then I shouldn't try to blame her later. Seemed pretty reasonable to me. That was what I heard in the 80s and 90s.
Now controlling the kids, I did see...
But that's for another thread.
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Galen
Dot Matrix:
"One person who spoke with us works with vets who have been sexually abused and the worse case
I ever heard was about this young guy -- maybe 19 or 20 years old he was in Viet Nam."
I have read that story before.
"I wonder how many men had these things happen in TWI that are too ashamed to speak out."
Could be. During my careir I saw some forms of harassment and abuse go from religous and daily to none existant.
I was 'greased' when I reported to my first command. It was common at the time. My colon was packed with lithium grease using a pnumatic greasegun. Granted those were not beleivers, but in the 1970's such things happened in the US military.
"It is rough on either sex, but I think men are slaughtered more for opening their mouths than women. If they were raped by a man then they must be a homo sexual.... If a woman raped them... why are they complaining?"
Yes something like that.
Though it was mentioned at the academy that usually when women do rape men, it is done by a group of women and using weapons.
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Ginger Tea
I don't think men have been conditioned to relate to 'victimization'... the way women do.
Doesn't mean they aren't ~ can't be or won't...
I think the cognicance of it is on an entirely different level ~ although I think that is changing...
The whole 'victim mentality' is very sad though... if anyone chooses to remain there too long ~ and people DO choose it still when it doesn't serve them anymore
... but only they know ~ no one can really judge one's healing in matters of the heart & mind ~ not yet anyway
... you can't x-ray a shattered life or the responses to it like you can a broken bone.
In this area (that a victim is a victim until they survive it, are ready to move on and CAN overcome the obstacles ~ some of it being the time spent 'there' as well) MEN can learn from women and WOMEN can learn from men...
I say this with the most heartful compassion, and also in truth. I don't mean any offense to anyone.
How could I?
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Dot Matrix
(((((Galen)))))
Simply horrible. Did the people who did that ever get repremanded? Or because it was common at that time was it merely winked at?
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Dot Matrix
(((((Shaz)))))
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oldiesman
Ginger, I think you're statement is a good one. It sort of reminds me of something said by Naomi Judd in her new book, "Naomi's Breakthrough Guide -- 20 Choices to Transform Your Life." As you may know, Judd has had her share of problems. It says on the jacket of her book that she missed her high school graduation to deliver her first child, endured domestic abuse, lived on welfare, put herself thru nursing school and overcame a life-threatening illness. Wow, that's a lot of hassles. She asked:
Sounds like she was once a participant in the "victim mentality" but overcame it.
[This message was edited by oldiesman on January 12, 2004 at 16:23.]
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Galen
Dot Matrix:
"Simply horrible. Did the people who did that ever get repremanded? Or because it was common at that time was it merely winked at?"
I guess 'winked at' was more the theme of the day.
On the next day your an 'insider' and included in the harrassments of the next new guys.
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Linda Z
Oldies, I think you missed another part of GT's post (my emphasis added): "... but only they know ~ no one can really judge one's healing in matters of the heart & mind ~ not yet anyway"
That's so true. How long it takes to heal a physical wound depends on many things: the depth and type of wound, proper conditions for healing, effective treatment, etc. Wounds of the heart are much more complex, and how long it takes for them to heal is different for every person. And how they get there varies widely, too.
I admire Naomi Judd for her courage and tenacity. I also see those qualities in the women who got used and abused in twi.
The implication of your post, if I'm reading it right, is "Hey, Naomi got over it, so why can't everyone else?" Easy: Everyone else isn't Naomi Judd. Each of us has his/her own strengths, weaknesses, resources, pasts, challenges, ad infinitum.
Reminds me of my mother saying to me once, "How can you be crying over [whatever was breaking my teenage heart at the time], when so-and-so has a much worse problem?" I said, "Well, this is MY problem and I'm hurting about it. I feel sorry for so-and-so, but the fact that she has a worse problem than I do doesn't take away my hurt."
That might have been one of the few times I was right as a teenager.
Linda Z
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excathedra
i agree linzee my friend
in fact, my "thing" for a long time was trying to get into the heart and pain of the "abuser." that's fine unless you forget about yourself.... there's a lesson that also has to be learned in order to "heal"
know what ah mean jelly bean ?
?
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sirguessalot
A memory shook loose...
At a statewide TC meeting in the mid 90s, I was instructed to keep the single women "from seeking sexual needs from men outside the purity of the household," wink, wink.
And to teach my fellow single men to do the same thing.
A memory telling of many things.
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excathedra
to sir with love
pure love for you
?
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sirguessalot
Is it chocolate?
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excathedra
ohabsofrikkinlutely little brother
:)-->
?
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excathedra
just read your post again
i meant "christ's" pure love
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
i know you know but who knows what others might think they know, ya know ?
?
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