quote:I feel that if I had been willing to "go with it", then I too would have had to share in the responsibility...
Jonny, I think you prove that "abuse" can also be a state of mind. I suppose someone else in the same circumstance could have portrayed themselves as a victim of abuse. Thanks for sharing.
Oh, so you have guessed who it was, Shoulda been easy really. I thought I had seen their address in the last couple a years over at the eph320 website. I certainly could be wrong though...
I was "hit on" by a guy at my first Limb meeting. Being a naive kid from farm country, it went right over my head at first. He was an assistant BC and seemed to be so "spiritual." Like a lot of VPW imitators, he went around spouting "deep thoughts." I was very impressed by this very charismatic person. I gave him a ride home and he tried again and I finally got a clue. After informing him that he should first make sure he had good medical insurance before continuing, he got out and walked. I tried to tell my TC but he said I must have been mistaken. I "probably just wasn't used to such loving people." What BS. When pushed, the guy tried to turn it around and say I hit on him! Yuck! It wasn't long after that incident that he just disappeared.
I found out later that my TC and this guy were good "buddies" and both had a history of such behavior. Nice to know that others knew and did nothing! (Yes, that's sarcasm) Not that there was any physical trauma but it was very disturbing. How could people like that be at a church function?! (Told you, I was a naive farm kid)
So Just thinking, your profile says you are a guy. And the person that hit on you was a guy.
Eeeeeaaauuuwww!
I should say that this must have been very unsettling. Glad you threatened to kick his a**!
Too bad all of you girls weren't mega black belts in Tae Kwan Do or something. It woulda been cool if you all coulda kicked their asses each time and simply respond with; "Hey, he tried to pork me!"
I know men that were hit on where it was way over the line. One thing for a Christain woman to ask a guy out, it is another when she unbottons her blouse while asking a guy to study with her.
Inappropriate behavior, this happened to a 13th corps guy friend of mine. He was so cool, he said I can find and have sluts anywhere, I am looking for a good girl. He buttoned her back up and sent her away.
My husband's thesis was on Male rape. It devastates males. especially, if the rapist was female. First, you go to the police and they say things like, "what are you complaining about?" "Got her phone number?"
Then, because most of the time they get an erection, they feel like some how they must have liked it.
While studying this we researched some examples.
Here is one of those examples we got from a rape crisis center:
This one man was taken at knifepoint by three women and kept for days and raped over and over again. The police asked him how that could be? He must have enjoyed it!
A man can stay erect out of fear. These women had a knife to his private parts and rotated one on one holding the knife etc. This poor guy was a laughing stock by police.
There is a great book on male rape called "Victims No Longer" by Lew.
In it, a man, while he was a boy, was raped by his father for years. As he grew up he no longer had contact with his father. The son became a Doctor and a very accomplished human being but he always felt dirty and "less than."
So, he contacted his father and was going to confront him. The son sat next to him at the bar ready to confront him and the father asked him if he contacted him so they could have another romp in the hay?
Many, many cases of males being raped by other men as well as women.
The women who were inner-circle were recruiters of other woman and they did hunt down good-looking men to get their needs met. That is sexual abuse. And it did happen in the way via VP's female recruiters (mostly ordained but not all) from the inner-circle.
Some of these women went after men sexually to get them to marry them. Talk about the ultimate deception! I know one gal (early corps) who was dating a guy who was not "big" enough in the ministry so she dropped him. She dated one of VP's favorites but he was a player and saw many women. Well, eventually he decided on one girl that was NOT her. So, this woman calls the other guy up and asks him to marry her.
Well, he was all in love and had been "involved" with her and thought they had something special. Turns out she was one of Moggies chicks. Sex with her was not special but routine.
She would be all over a guy, even if YOU were dating him. There were no boundaries.
So, the guy thinks she loves him. He was one of many. He marries her and had no idea she was part of the inner circle!
Funny, but I recently heard of a similar story that happened to yet another "good" guy.
So, yes men were abused by the women who adhered to these devil doctrines....
I know I am not a guy, but I thought this relevant to your thread. If it is not, please forgive me CW!
"My husband's thesis was on Male rape. It devastates males. especially, if the rapist was female."
(derail)
When I attended the Military Police Academy in Lackland Texas, the FBI instructors taught us that according to their statistics the majority of male rape victims do not live through the experience. I dont recall their numbers but it was an over-whelming majority. Whereas in contrast, female rape victims usually live.
"When I attended the Military Police Academy in Lackland Texas, the FBI instructors taught us that according to their statistics the majority of male rape victims do not live through the experience. I dont recall their numbers but it was an over-whelming majority. Whereas in contrast, female rape victims usually live"
One person who spoke with us works with vets who have been sexually abused and the worse case
I ever heard was about this young guy -- maybe 19 or 20 years old he was in Viet Nam.
He came to the vet treatment center for years and never shared anything. His life had been destroyed by drugs and alcohol... But he would show up religiously and never share. Then one day he broke and shared his story...
He was being lifted to a hospital and could hear the medics/Doctor talking about him. They were saying how he was not going to make it. Well, then the physician removed the injured boys pants and began to do oral sex. Who knows why? Sexual gratification under stress? A tyrant offending the helpless...
This poor kid had to fight his way back physically then deal with this assault. It did damm near kill him. His life was nothing after the assault and he felt he was robbed of his manhood while he was as low as one person could possibly be, near death, at the hands of the person who was suppose to help him.
I wonder how many men had these things happen in TWI that are too ashamed to speak out.
It is rough on either sex, but I think men are slaughtered more for opening their mouths than women. If they were raped by a man then they must be a homo sexual.... If a woman raped them... why are they complaining?
Coolwaters,if you're still reading,I apologize for my part in sending this thread off-kilter...
I do think it would be difficult for men to tell stories on this subject,especially twi stories...I can't imagine,for instance,men being drugged by a wog for sexual purposes...For some reason,there doesn't seem to be the same sleaziness attached,at least from a guy's point of view,when as a young man he's hit on by a more "mature" female reverand,as when the sexes are reversed...I think female seductions were more along the lines of "practicing the freedom you have in Christ" rather than some sort of an invite into spiritual healing or holy ground...
Ok, seeing as how very few have stories they care to share and there has been some discussion on what does and does not constitute sexual abuse, I have some questions for the guys...........
1. TWI taught you you were to control your wives, but if you tried, you know it is pretty much impossible to "control" another human being unless they are willing to be controlled.
Was this teaching a form of sexual abuse against the men?
Did it make you feel less masculine if you tried and failed to control your wife? Perhaps make you question your manhood or feel you had to prove your manhood?
Did it affect your sex life?
These are very personal questions, I know, and obviously no one has to answer them. But having been a TWI wife, I would be very interested in knowning how these pressures affected the men.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
[This message was edited by Abigail on January 10, 2004 at 5:00.]
I never heard anything like what you describe, Abigail, but I left TWI about 18 years ago. From what I've read here, there does seem to have been at least some teaching such as you describe in more recent years.
"Was this teaching a form of sexual abuse against them men?"
I would say not, but it could have provided justification, and possibly even motivation, for sexual and other abuse.
TYVM. As I said before, my reactions were primarily due to me being defensive...no real offense committed by anyone. And, shoot, I've derailed plenty of threads in my day...
***************
Johnny,
I didn't think you felt that the situation was abuse...that was my take on it. Sorry I wasn't clear about that.
*************
JT,
TYVM for sharing. I'm sorry that happened to you, and I understand the sarcasm. :D-->
**************
Dot,
Yes....exactly the kind of thing I was thinking about when starting this thread.
TYVM for posting!
****************
ExC,
I knew you'd understand...I learned it from you. :D--> mwah!
****************
Abi,
More of some of my exact thoughts when I started this thread.
TYVM!
*****************
Now that I've had a chance to back away from the emotions of the topic, I've also had a chance to realize that the topic cannot be pinned down to just one question or just one discussion.
Sometimes talking about everything else but the "topic" is the first step in getting around to the "topic". Ya know?
These things are difficult to talk about.
It's even more difficult if one must endure blame and shame...again.
Having worked with abuse survivors for most of my life, I can say absolutely that there is no concrete definition of abuse. The argument can rage on and on, but there will be no "Aha!" moment of definition.
Remember, we're talking sexual abuse. At least half of the reason that abuse is so hard to define is because the victims don't really know where the line is drawn...until it happens. One of my posts on ExC's "adultery vs soul stealing" thread ( http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=9...2135#1646092135 ) goes into a partial explanation about this and says in part:
quote:Does that mean that I have been a willing participant? Does that mean that it has all been consensual? Does that mean that because I initiated it, I wanted sex?
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!
If I "like" something because I fear the alternative, that is not being a willing participant...that is passivity.
If I give in because I fear the alternative, that is not consent...that is coercion
If I seek it out because I know no other way to find comfort, that not sexuality...that is palliative.
The rest of the post is worth reading...especially when it comes to "defining" abuse.
All this being said, one of the very most disturbing things I have seen happen here is...
A person posts his/her story and defines it as abuse. The pain is obvious. Sometimes the guilt and the shame are obvious. Often it is obvious that the person is still not totally "over it".
Then along come the blamers...the ones who have to drive the dagger deeper into the heart by repeating the very things that were said to cover up the crap in the first place...and the ones who will argue their position without really reading or considering any other post, much less the post of the person they are torturing.
That's the hardest thing for me to cope with here.
I don't understand why any person would feel the need to make things even more painful.
I don't understand how any person can read the documents here, read all of the stories here, see the hearts and lives that were shredded, and still want to carry water for the good ol' boys and girls who made it all so bad.
And I don't like to see people hurt all over again.
Some day I may find a way to get beyond these things...but something in me doesn't really want to get beyond being appalled and offended at cold-hearted callousness.
You know, if you ask the universe a question, it will give you the answer. Sometimes even if you don't ask...
After re-reading my post, I realize that I do understand what I said I didn't understand...because I did it to someone back on trance.chat...
Although I have apologized for that many times before...now I really get it what I did...and I apologize from the bottom of my heart...with understanding this time.
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oldiesman
Jonny, I think you prove that "abuse" can also be a state of mind. I suppose someone else in the same circumstance could have portrayed themselves as a victim of abuse. Thanks for sharing.
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alfakat
yeah, like if the lady in question were the founder and prez and was handing out favors for favors, if you catch my drift....
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LG
The difference between a non-abusive situation and an abusive one is the means of influence.
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J0nny Ling0
Excathedra-
Oh, so you have guessed who it was, Shoulda been easy really. I thought I had seen their address in the last couple a years over at the eph320 website. I certainly could be wrong though...
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excathedra
?
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JustThinking
CW,
If you're still here...
I was "hit on" by a guy at my first Limb meeting. Being a naive kid from farm country, it went right over my head at first. He was an assistant BC and seemed to be so "spiritual." Like a lot of VPW imitators, he went around spouting "deep thoughts." I was very impressed by this very charismatic person. I gave him a ride home and he tried again and I finally got a clue. After informing him that he should first make sure he had good medical insurance before continuing, he got out and walked. I tried to tell my TC but he said I must have been mistaken. I "probably just wasn't used to such loving people." What BS. When pushed, the guy tried to turn it around and say I hit on him! Yuck! It wasn't long after that incident that he just disappeared.
I found out later that my TC and this guy were good "buddies" and both had a history of such behavior. Nice to know that others knew and did nothing! (Yes, that's sarcasm) Not that there was any physical trauma but it was very disturbing. How could people like that be at a church function?! (Told you, I was a naive farm kid)
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J0nny Ling0
So Just thinking, your profile says you are a guy. And the person that hit on you was a guy.
Eeeeeaaauuuwww!
I should say that this must have been very unsettling. Glad you threatened to kick his a**!
Too bad all of you girls weren't mega black belts in Tae Kwan Do or something. It woulda been cool if you all coulda kicked their asses each time and simply respond with; "Hey, he tried to pork me!"
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Dot Matrix
I know men that were hit on where it was way over the line. One thing for a Christain woman to ask a guy out, it is another when she unbottons her blouse while asking a guy to study with her.
Inappropriate behavior, this happened to a 13th corps guy friend of mine. He was so cool, he said I can find and have sluts anywhere, I am looking for a good girl. He buttoned her back up and sent her away.
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JustThinking
Johnny,
Thanks. Forgot to add the key point that I'm a guy.
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JustThinking
I'm not aware of any misbehavin' that did NOT involve WC. Not that they're the only ones but just my experience.
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Dot Matrix
My husband's thesis was on Male rape. It devastates males. especially, if the rapist was female. First, you go to the police and they say things like, "what are you complaining about?" "Got her phone number?"
Then, because most of the time they get an erection, they feel like some how they must have liked it.
While studying this we researched some examples.
Here is one of those examples we got from a rape crisis center:
This one man was taken at knifepoint by three women and kept for days and raped over and over again. The police asked him how that could be? He must have enjoyed it!
A man can stay erect out of fear. These women had a knife to his private parts and rotated one on one holding the knife etc. This poor guy was a laughing stock by police.
There is a great book on male rape called "Victims No Longer" by Lew.
In it, a man, while he was a boy, was raped by his father for years. As he grew up he no longer had contact with his father. The son became a Doctor and a very accomplished human being but he always felt dirty and "less than."
So, he contacted his father and was going to confront him. The son sat next to him at the bar ready to confront him and the father asked him if he contacted him so they could have another romp in the hay?
Many, many cases of males being raped by other men as well as women.
The women who were inner-circle were recruiters of other woman and they did hunt down good-looking men to get their needs met. That is sexual abuse. And it did happen in the way via VP's female recruiters (mostly ordained but not all) from the inner-circle.
Some of these women went after men sexually to get them to marry them. Talk about the ultimate deception! I know one gal (early corps) who was dating a guy who was not "big" enough in the ministry so she dropped him. She dated one of VP's favorites but he was a player and saw many women. Well, eventually he decided on one girl that was NOT her. So, this woman calls the other guy up and asks him to marry her.
Well, he was all in love and had been "involved" with her and thought they had something special. Turns out she was one of Moggies chicks. Sex with her was not special but routine.
She would be all over a guy, even if YOU were dating him. There were no boundaries.
So, the guy thinks she loves him. He was one of many. He marries her and had no idea she was part of the inner circle!
Funny, but I recently heard of a similar story that happened to yet another "good" guy.
So, yes men were abused by the women who adhered to these devil doctrines....
I know I am not a guy, but I thought this relevant to your thread. If it is not, please forgive me CW!
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excathedra
dearest cool, you are so cool (wonderful). i love you.
i can't count the times i've had to back away (or delete away
;)-->).
?
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Galen
Dot Matrix:
"My husband's thesis was on Male rape. It devastates males. especially, if the rapist was female."
(derail)
When I attended the Military Police Academy in Lackland Texas, the FBI instructors taught us that according to their statistics the majority of male rape victims do not live through the experience. I dont recall their numbers but it was an over-whelming majority. Whereas in contrast, female rape victims usually live.
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vickles
Jonny,
Its a good thing you didn't follow through with this rev...she could have been recruiting you.
I know you didn't 'feel' abused but she was being abusive to the power of being clergy.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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oldiesman
Oh Balderdash. Sounds like she was horny and wanted some, plain and simple.
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Dot Matrix
Galen
"When I attended the Military Police Academy in Lackland Texas, the FBI instructors taught us that according to their statistics the majority of male rape victims do not live through the experience. I dont recall their numbers but it was an over-whelming majority. Whereas in contrast, female rape victims usually live"
One person who spoke with us works with vets who have been sexually abused and the worse case
I ever heard was about this young guy -- maybe 19 or 20 years old he was in Viet Nam.
He came to the vet treatment center for years and never shared anything. His life had been destroyed by drugs and alcohol... But he would show up religiously and never share. Then one day he broke and shared his story...
He was being lifted to a hospital and could hear the medics/Doctor talking about him. They were saying how he was not going to make it. Well, then the physician removed the injured boys pants and began to do oral sex. Who knows why? Sexual gratification under stress? A tyrant offending the helpless...
This poor kid had to fight his way back physically then deal with this assault. It did damm near kill him. His life was nothing after the assault and he felt he was robbed of his manhood while he was as low as one person could possibly be, near death, at the hands of the person who was suppose to help him.
I wonder how many men had these things happen in TWI that are too ashamed to speak out.
It is rough on either sex, but I think men are slaughtered more for opening their mouths than women. If they were raped by a man then they must be a homo sexual.... If a woman raped them... why are they complaining?
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excathedra
?
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simonzelotes
Coolwaters,if you're still reading,I apologize for my part in sending this thread off-kilter...
I do think it would be difficult for men to tell stories on this subject,especially twi stories...I can't imagine,for instance,men being drugged by a wog for sexual purposes...For some reason,there doesn't seem to be the same sleaziness attached,at least from a guy's point of view,when as a young man he's hit on by a more "mature" female reverand,as when the sexes are reversed...I think female seductions were more along the lines of "practicing the freedom you have in Christ" rather than some sort of an invite into spiritual healing or holy ground...
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Abigail
Ok, seeing as how very few have stories they care to share and there has been some discussion on what does and does not constitute sexual abuse, I have some questions for the guys...........
1. TWI taught you you were to control your wives, but if you tried, you know it is pretty much impossible to "control" another human being unless they are willing to be controlled.
Was this teaching a form of sexual abuse against the men?
Did it make you feel less masculine if you tried and failed to control your wife? Perhaps make you question your manhood or feel you had to prove your manhood?
Did it affect your sex life?
These are very personal questions, I know, and obviously no one has to answer them. But having been a TWI wife, I would be very interested in knowning how these pressures affected the men.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
[This message was edited by Abigail on January 10, 2004 at 5:00.]
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excathedra
I was a TWI wife. and really, abi, i never had a control issue with my then husband. and i don't remember anyone pressuring him along those lines.
i just might have been in a different time than you or place
?
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oldiesman
Abigail I beg to differ with your premise.
TWI taught that the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church.
Whether folks lived up to that, that's another story.
Being the head doesn't necessarily mean you're always in charge of everything. We were taught that as well.
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LG
I never heard anything like what you describe, Abigail, but I left TWI about 18 years ago. From what I've read here, there does seem to have been at least some teaching such as you describe in more recent years.
"Was this teaching a form of sexual abuse against them men?"
I would say not, but it could have provided justification, and possibly even motivation, for sexual and other abuse.
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CoolWaters
simon,
TYVM. As I said before, my reactions were primarily due to me being defensive...no real offense committed by anyone. And, shoot, I've derailed plenty of threads in my day...
***************
Johnny,
I didn't think you felt that the situation was abuse...that was my take on it. Sorry I wasn't clear about that.
*************
JT,
TYVM for sharing. I'm sorry that happened to you, and I understand the sarcasm.
:D-->
**************
Dot,
Yes....exactly the kind of thing I was thinking about when starting this thread.
TYVM for posting!
****************
ExC,
I knew you'd understand...I learned it from you.
:D--> mwah!
****************
Abi,
More of some of my exact thoughts when I started this thread.
TYVM!
*****************
Now that I've had a chance to back away from the emotions of the topic, I've also had a chance to realize that the topic cannot be pinned down to just one question or just one discussion.
Sometimes talking about everything else but the "topic" is the first step in getting around to the "topic". Ya know?
These things are difficult to talk about.
It's even more difficult if one must endure blame and shame...again.
Having worked with abuse survivors for most of my life, I can say absolutely that there is no concrete definition of abuse. The argument can rage on and on, but there will be no "Aha!" moment of definition.
Remember, we're talking sexual abuse. At least half of the reason that abuse is so hard to define is because the victims don't really know where the line is drawn...until it happens. One of my posts on ExC's "adultery vs soul stealing" thread ( http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=9...2135#1646092135 ) goes into a partial explanation about this and says in part:
The rest of the post is worth reading...especially when it comes to "defining" abuse.
All this being said, one of the very most disturbing things I have seen happen here is...
A person posts his/her story and defines it as abuse. The pain is obvious. Sometimes the guilt and the shame are obvious. Often it is obvious that the person is still not totally "over it".
Then along come the blamers...the ones who have to drive the dagger deeper into the heart by repeating the very things that were said to cover up the crap in the first place...and the ones who will argue their position without really reading or considering any other post, much less the post of the person they are torturing.
That's the hardest thing for me to cope with here.
I don't understand why any person would feel the need to make things even more painful.
I don't understand how any person can read the documents here, read all of the stories here, see the hearts and lives that were shredded, and still want to carry water for the good ol' boys and girls who made it all so bad.
And I don't like to see people hurt all over again.
Some day I may find a way to get beyond these things...but something in me doesn't really want to get beyond being appalled and offended at cold-hearted callousness.
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CoolWaters
You know, if you ask the universe a question, it will give you the answer. Sometimes even if you don't ask...
After re-reading my post, I realize that I do understand what I said I didn't understand...because I did it to someone back on trance.chat...
Although I have apologized for that many times before...now I really get it what I did...and I apologize from the bottom of my heart...with understanding this time.
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