That's why I'm not condemning groups like CES, CFF and the like; they are trying to perpetuate the good doctrine even though once taught by Victor Paul Wierwille. They realize the fundamental concept that the sins and wrong doctrines of the teacher does not negate the truths and right doctrine in the teachers message, and they are able to separate the fish from the bones and continue.
I'd like to note that this "separate the fish from the bones" quote comes straight FROM them, specifically from JAL.
I'd be a lot less suspicious of claims like this- except I've been watching the results.
We've seen spiders from people's noses, and leaders who rule by divine fiat,
and "personal prophecies" any good charlatan could equal or better,
and MORE programs where kids pay to perform manual labor,
and leaders who have to be pried off the Christians like a barnacle.
When I see results like I've seen, I have to question my fundamental assumptions, since the evidence isn't matching them.
Maybe there IS NO "separate out the bad doctrines and keep only the good ones."
Maybe the entire FRAMEWORK is harmful, and that FRAMEWORK is what will be brought along.
So long as it is, there can be some COSMETIC changes, and replacing ONE harmful doctrine with ANOTHER harmful doctrine,
I'd like to note that this "separate the fish from the bones" quote comes straight FROM them, specifically from JAL.
I'd be a lot less suspicious of claims like this- except I've been watching the results.
We've seen spiders from people's noses, and leaders who rule by divine fiat,
and "personal prophecies" any good charlatan could equal or better,
and MORE programs where kids pay to perform manual labor,
and leaders who have to be pried off the Christians like a barnacle.
When I see results like I've seen, I have to question my fundamental assumptions, since the evidence isn't matching them.
Maybe there IS NO "separate out the bad doctrines and keep only the good ones."
Maybe the entire FRAMEWORK is harmful, and that FRAMEWORK is what will be brought along.
So long as it is, there can be some COSMETIC changes, and replacing ONE harmful doctrine with ANOTHER harmful doctrine,
but there will still be one or another.
Oh-and honest inquiry is still verboten.....
Then again if one looks closely at the doctrine that inspired those actions one would see that it clearly was not fish at all. Personal Prophesy and Jesus Worship were not part of Way doctrine by any means. Rather than eating the fish they seemed to think spiders were a better choice on the menu.
.............here's the quote from the september, 2007 letter:
"In closing, let me say that I honestly believe that Dr. Wierwille (TWI Founder) would be very proud of what we are doing. We have taken the keys to the Word's interpretation that he taught us and used them to evaluate his own teachings, correcting those that did not agree with Scripture. We have never lost sight of the goal of moving the Word around the world. If that is still your goal, or if you think there is any way we could be of service to you, please do not hesitate to contact us."
so, john honestly believes vic would be "proud" of what he, schoenheit and graeser have done and are doing, eh?..........what in the hell does that mean???is that some kind of feather in your ministry's cap?...............more like a scarlet letter, imho!..............but, at least he's giving credit where credit is due!..........which is more than i can say for cff, and many other offshoots who spend a lot of time and effort covering up the wierwille roots of their existence and belief systems!
I think this says more that the words on the screen reveal, because it is more than that.
and leaders who have to be pried off the Christians like a barnacle.
LOL ... good phrase ... but sad if true.
I really question these guys judgment that sign the pledge of allegiance, or loyalty oath ... and if they stood around while people were "excommunicated" for reading a research paper that concluded adultery was wrong ... man oh man ... can they really just glide out of that mind set and into "pure" CFF service?
Maybe there IS NO "separate out the bad doctrines and keep only the good ones."
Maybe the entire FRAMEWORK is harmful, and that FRAMEWORK is what will be brought along.
So long as it is, there can be some COSMETIC changes, and replacing ONE harmful doctrine with ANOTHER harmful doctrine,
but there will still be one or another.
Oh-and honest inquiry is still verboten.....
Agree ... really it is not the "silly little doctrines" that really make the group ... it is how they operate, the "power structure", the "we are right you are wrong" attitudes, getting people to give their money for some invisible higher purpose.
I hope CFF is better ... but as many have said, it seems they have carried a lot of baggage along. I'm curious now ... can't we make open and honest inquiry here? Will they not reveal how they function, what they believe? Surely it is not a secret society, is it? Hide it under a bushel .. NO!
Are GSC'ers deemed possessed? Are they afraid of dialogue?
I think this says more that the words on the screen reveal, because it is more than that.
This is where the victard's teachings led them.
Again I'll point out that the problems occurred from or a result of non - Way doctrines, not (where the victard's teachings led them at all) but in new directions they sought after. Personal Prophesy ,Jesus Worship, Momentus , dialoging with people such as Dale Sides, and other ideas are not Way doctrine nor do they fit into the category of keys to the Word's interpretation. One can theorize that there is some hidden meaning that was not spoken on the screen, but that fails the test in establishing a valid link to any of these ideas and VPW or Way doctrine. I think it must be there somewhere, even though it does not appear to be, because I want it to say that is not a valid claim.
I haven't seen any of the offshoot groups manage to separate whatever doctrines they decide to keep or modify, from the basic structure and practices of twi fellowships. I think the point is that all the deeply-igrained concepts of hierarchy, etc. that came from twi (whether they are stated doctrines or not) are the kind of baggage that can easily bring a group down from the inside out.
In '87 after I'd left HQ and was far far away, I told the leader of the first offshoot that unlike him, I wasn't comfortable with assuming that the keys to research, etc. that VP taught were right. For instance, I wondered what the word "scripture" really referred to in that verse that says all scripture is given by inspiration of God, etc.
I told him that as far as I knew, the cannon of the Bible wasn't established at the time that verse was written so how could "scripture" in that verse refer to the whole Bible as we have it today? He said he didn't have time to do all that research...
That's one reason why I had a problem with "offshoots." So I went to college, read lots of books, and got a degree in English.
Quite a bit of what was "taught" in TWI was done so by virtue of OJT (On The Job Training).
Just because something does not appear in a book or tape or magazine or class, does not negate the reality that it was taught.
The proof that these things were "taught" is manifest in the finished product of the workman just as the finished product of a bricklayer is evidence of the OJT the workman received.
It has long been my belief that a large amount of the damages caused by TWI came more from the lifestyle we led than from the various academic doctrines such as 4 crucified, etc. To catagorize these lessons as being Non-TWI is an incorrect and unrealistically minimizing assessment of their effects. OJT played a major role in the believer's "education" once he or she submitted themselves to a program such as The Corps or Fellow Laborers.
.............here's the quote from the september, 2007 letter:
"In closing, let me say that I honestly believe that Dr. Wierwille (TWI Founder) would be very proud of what we are doing. We have taken the keys to the Word's interpretation that he taught us and used them to evaluate his own teachings, correcting those that did not agree with Scripture. We have never lost sight of the goal of moving the Word around the world. If that is still your goal, or if you think there is any way we could be of service to you, please do not hesitate to contact us."
Anyone who thinks in any way, even for a minute, that VPW would be proud of and supportive of anyone changing anything he taught in the PFAL series - is nuts. Bona fide, certifiably out of their mind. Crazy. Whack-o. One bun shy of a weinie roast. Light in the pockets. Look up "no-brainer" in the dictionary and you'll see their photo for the example labelled "No Brains".
Doing so reinvents VPW's known history and virtually every known encounter he ever had with anyone who wanted to change or correct what he'd researched. His mind was made up - and I can gawr-antee he'd be chewing shortie Kools and spitting them out sideways over anything resembling "Personal Prophecy". Unless of course it was ray-vuhlation. Cus then he'd know for sure - it was from the wrong gawd.
In John L's case, he knows better than to say something like that. That's his way of saying "VPW isn't here to argue so hey, this sounds good, makes me feel good and will feel good for others so yeah, sure. Whatever I say."
He said he didn't have time to do all that research...
Yeah, nice goin' penworks. Who's got that kind of time?
Anyone who thinks in any way, even for a minute, that VPW would be proud of and supportive of anyone changing anything he taught in the PFAL series - is nuts. Bona fide, certifiably out of their mind. Crazy. Whack-o. One bun shy of a weinie roast. Light in the pockets. Look up "no-brainer" in the dictionary and you'll see their photo for the example labelled "No Brains".
Doing so reinvents VPW's known history and virtually every known encounter he ever had with anyone who wanted to change or correct what he'd researched. His mind was made up - and I can gawr-antee he'd be chewing shortie Kools and spitting them out sideways over anything resembling "Personal Prophecy". Unless of course it was ray-vuhlation. Cus then he'd know for sure - it was from the wrong gawd.
In John L's case, he knows better than to say something like that. That's his way of saying "VPW isn't here to argue so hey, this sounds good, makes me feel good and will feel good for others so yeah, sure. Whatever I say."
Yeah, nice goin' penworks. Who's got that kind of time?
I hope CFF is better ... but as many have said, it seems they have carried a lot of baggage along. I'm curious now ... can't we make open and honest inquiry here? Will they not reveal how they function, what they believe? Surely it is not a secret society, is it? Hide it under a bushel .. NO!
Their top leaders have NEVER appologized for their hand in destroying lives as LCM's henchmen when they were a part of TWI; they didn't think they needed to.
So, once again.......when wierwille came across the topic of adultery, he would tend to ascribe to it as spiritual adultery..?? Like.....moving it into the "spirit of whoredoms" category or "spirit of lust".....diverting one's attention away from its *true intent.*
Gee, what if we used these same "wierwille research skills" to Luke 18:20..?
Luk 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
...1) Do not commit SPIRITUAL adultery.
...2) Do not SPIRITUALLY kill.
...3) Do not SPIRITUALLY steal.
...4) Do not bear SPIRITUAL false witness.
...5) SPIRITUALLY honour thy faher and thy mother.
It gets kinda crazy to *spiritualize* everything........doesn't it?
When John Lynn was fired and began his own ministry he went about town asking people to tell their horro storys from the way.
He played the role of being the one who knew best the troubles we have seen and now he was gonna save the day with his new and improved ministry.
he knew better than come along as a bull in a glass shop as is his character and ersonality so he played it all for pity and compassion for the victims.
and it worked he got much attention and ears to hear, nence money, people were so accumstomed to paying to hear what they should do they automaticly fell into line as the thing to do next.
John Lynn knows how to play a crowd if I ever saw one he can sell.
so then he left some out those who had less anger and just pain and confusion and lost in aworld without the way dictators.
and they were in it to love people or worship them so he puts in the glip about how proud vpw would be.
it worked , he caught many with that showing his softer side hehe of how in spite of his angry cross country unemployed trips to get the moeny to survive he still "cared" about the 'soul" of the ministry which bottom line was vpw.
all the while stirring up those in discontent and pulling them in.
you do not think he learned anything in all those years of faithful service?
I know he did , plenty.
enough to build his own ministry and support his lifestyle and do what he wanted to do.
Skyrider – vp's trick of spiritualizing adultery is one of the many booby traps he set for followers – a sinful bomb just waiting to destroy the life of an unsuspecting soul. vp took a weak stance on sin [the incident of vowing to never preach another negative sermon in PFAL, the "softening" of living in sin to "broken fellowship"]. The reason it's a booby trap is because the Bible clearly indicates one cannot commit adultery and walk away unscathed. Proverbs has a whole section on adultery with a stern warning in
Proverbs 6:27-29 KJV
Can a man take fire in his bosom and his clothes not be burned?
Can one go upon hot coals, and his feet not be burned?
So he that goeth in to his neighbour's wife; whosover toucheth her shall not be innocent.
Looking back is a good thing to do, if for nothing else, to put things in perspective. That era from 1985-1987 was a very confusing time for a great many people.
.....
Hopefully the details in the interview will show people that this was a systemic problem with an organization and not a problem with God.
Thanks Pawtucket.
I'm still curious as to what motivated this interview
and you have given me some insight.
Perhaps there were systematic problems with the organization.
But I think the interview shows the corrupt practices of top level leadership more than the organization as a whole.
On a local level, I think their were more Ralph Dubofski types on the scene than those leaders who took to Lording it over everyone.
In 1987 in Dallas there was a huge meeting of all twig coordinators in respnse to John Lynn's first visit to Dallas.
John at the time, had a list of controversial charges against TWI
of which adultery was the most alarming.
Our Limb Coordinator, Britt Lynn, admitted he was opening a can of worms.
He faced to controversy head on, looking for two or three witnesses to verify the charges.
There must have been a hundred or so of us there. It was very tense.
As for adultery.
No one condoned it it any way, shape , or form.
We looked at transcripts from the Christian Family and Sex class.
No doctrinal support there for adulterous behavior.
" I'd rather my kids come home hot and bothered than satisfied and scared"
The concern with John Schoenheit's paper on adultery, as I recall,
was the statement that went something like:
'perhaps Dr. Wierwill was wrong about adultery'
The concern was that this statement opened the door to further notions
such as
'perhaps Dr was wrong about tithing...
about believing,
about One God...etc."
The concern was that this attacked the integrity of the Word.
I now believe that forbidding these sorts of questions
allowed doctrinal and practical error to go unchecked.
We looked at I and II Timothy.
How the first century church first turned away from the Man of God
Then turned away from the Word of God
Then turned away from God.
I know my opinion isn't largely embraced here, and that's fine.
I just see a lot more of what was Right with the organization as a whole in those days.
I suggest, as we look back with our perspective of today,
that we don't ignore all the good and godly elements.
I encourage one and all to resist the devil and to draw nigh unto Christ.
I have been observing this for a long time.
I think looking at the muck and the mire is not healing.
Tell me Pawtucket,
Did Ralph have anything to say about the Lord Jesus Christ in your conversation?
I promise you,
If you will turn your eyes upon Jesus
( and perhaps my words sound foolish to some,
but they are in truth The Power of God
and the Wisdom of God)
If you will look full in his wonderful face,
then the things of earth will grow strangely dim...."
I think looking at the muck and the mire is not healing.
You may not see it EP, however that in no way diminishes the positive, life changing impact that the light of truth being shined upon the *muck and mire* of twi`s putrid *fruit* has had on so many many of the rest of us
Tell me Pawtucket,
Did Ralph have anything to say about the Lord Jesus Christ in your conversation?
I promise you,
If you will turn your eyes upon Jesus
( and perhaps my words sound foolish to some,
but they are in truth The Power of God
and the Wisdom of God)
If you will look full in his wonderful face,
then the things of earth will grow strangely dim...."
and finally EP.... the most vulgar, cruel, perpetrators of evil to innocent brothers and sisters in christ that it has been my misfortune to meet, used to invoke the name of Jesus on a regular basis...used to entreat us to look to him, so that we didn`t examine them and their actions too closely....used that name and scriptures to assure compliance, to imprison, to steal, to kill and destroy.
We know scripturally that not all whom call on the name of Jesus know who the hell he is....So your usage of that name, doesn`t impress me one bit, as a matter of fact...it makes you mighty suspicious in my book when the invocation of the name of Jesus is used as an excuse to distract from the truth of twi. You whip the name out like some kind of base ball bat, a weapon to swing at any whom dare shed the light of honesty and truth that will set us free from the false teachings that bind and ensnare.
As far as your post being the Wisdom of God?? Well...we can ALL see where these very same words and entreaties when employed by dishonest or unsrupulous people got us in twi....Damned right I think your words sound foolish ..... Maybe it would be smarter to turn your own eyes to the truth...rather than hide behind the name of Jesus in order to avoid facing it`s ominous implications :(
" I'd rather my kids come home hot and bothered than satisfied and scared"
Too bad he didn't hold himself and the underbelly of twi to the same standard..
I don't think it was about the "integrity of the word" being attacked. Naw.. what was it REALLY about?
well.. is it possible, that if told the truth of the matter, people might come to a logical conclusion that they were flim-flammed by a huckster, who didn't believe a single plagiarized word of what he preached?
along with an awareness that the *men* who came after him, were no better?
If you havent' confronted one of these mog types up to their necks in adultery and or substance "problems" , you haven't really lived life yet..
I remember getting one of the "little guys" by the ear.. didn't know it at the time it was so rampant up in the ivory tower..
"growwwer, hissssss.. don't you DARE TOUCH MY RIGHTEOUSNESSSSSSSSS"
Did Ralph have anything to say about the Lord Jesus Christ in your conversation?
uh, Prophet(?), when I listened to it, I believe Ralph was asked a specific question, to take us through those difficult times and events, and then he answered it according to his perspective and role in those events. I don't think Jesus was there in person at the time, so he didn't come up in the conversation. Does every conversation and interview here and on GSC radio need to have JC mentioned in it?
I promise you,
If you will turn your eyes upon Jesus
( and perhaps my words sound foolish to some,
but they are in truth The Power of God
and the Wisdom of God)
If you will look full in his wonderful face,
then the things of earth will grow strangely dim...."
Some might think I'm foolish for saying this but...
If you do that enough buying groceries will grow strangely dim. Some of us don't want to be so aloof. Some of us, in spite of all the bad, actually enjoy this life here on earth. Look at the recent posts... people are very curious about why all the good things that they remember, as do you, went so sour. So, closure is part of the issue. These are real phycological needs for many people to have to move on. Some of us just have an itch of curiosity that needs to be scratched.
I think Ralph's interview is one of the more damning things on this site. Here is a former top leader in TWI, in his own voice, a voice that even I, rather young in the 80s, recognize. IMO it does way more than a hundred clamoring anonymous faceless posters does for those that are in these groups and have thought about leaving and for those that think we are all just a bunch of whiney ax grinders, no matter how true our stories are. So I believe the interview will help. Maybe if we all believe that enough... lol
I don't know why the timing is what it is, but I know that RD (at least in his current screen name) has only been here since last year. Who knows when Paw figured out who he was and how long it took to get him to do an interview, all the logistics etc etc. It was the eighth year GSC anniversary, that is something. Ralph D seems to have nothing to gain by doing the interview. So why is the timing so suspect to you?
oh and what the hell is this creepy quote from?
" I'd rather my kids come home hot and bothered than satisfied and scared"
The timing for information, facts and "truth"? Interesting question. What would be a bad time?
Figure - this stuff is over 20 years old. If not now, hopefully it would be pretty soon then, while some of us can still see and hear and sit up without dribbling. Anyhoo -
Der R-ster's been around this board for a long time, probably had to re-register after a long absence. See? Age sets in.
I doubt it was planned with ulterior motive...
Or...
...Was it....?
Sorry, couldn't resist. Actually I think this was timed to coincide with the annual Spring Volksmarch in New Knoxville, and a major leaflet drop over Shelby County.
What qualified vp to teach a class on Christian Family & Sex?...."Christian" + "Family" - He was a bogus preacher who had little regard for families – he expected followers to hold TWI's agenda in higher priority than their own families…."Sex" – hmmm…who would be more qualified than a sexual predator to handle this subject? Makes about as much sense as having Jeffrey Dahmer teaching a college course on rape, necrophilia and cannibalism.
Did Ralph have anything to say about the Lord Jesus Christ in your conversation?
You must have missed my question at the beginning of the interview, we were discussing what led up to the publishing of the 37 page letter. Had the interview been about Jesus Christ, I am sure he would have addressed that. I generally stay away from people's belief systems. This interview was designed to get another view of those years shortly after VP's death. We've heard the company spin, now we hear it from someone that was there and someone I respect. We weren't focused on the "spiritual" aspect as much as the physical events. I think the physical events speak volumes to the spiritual condition at that time.
As a side note, we thought about whether to make this interview public. While it is about events from 20 years ago, it was still relevant today, filling in the gaps from that time for many people. I know that when I heard this information for the first time, it cleared up a lot of questions. (like I thought it was just me)
Skyrider – vp's trick of spiritualizing adultery is one of the many booby traps he set for followers – a sinful bomb just waiting to destroy the life of an unsuspecting soul. vp took a weak stance on sin [the incident of vowing to never preach another negative sermon in PFAL, the "softening" of living in sin to "broken fellowship"]. The reason it's a booby trap is because the Bible clearly indicates one cannot commit adultery and walk away unscathed. Proverbs has a whole section on adultery with a stern warning in
Proverbs 6:27-29 KJV
Can a man take fire in his bosom and his clothes not be burned?
Can one go upon hot coals, and his feet not be burned?
So he that goeth in to his neighbour's wife; whosover toucheth her shall not be innocent.
Absolutely!! .........
And, obviously......wierwille KNEW what he was doing was WRONG, otherwise he would have openly taught "the benefits of adultery" to all the corps......right? And, ya know.....4 sessions of the pfal class deal with the holy spirit field and how God OPENLY DISPLAYED the outpouring of His gift on the day of Pentecost.
Wierwille knew II Corinthians 4:2.......didn't he?
2Cor 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
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Ham
I think some of those guys who took the bait.. vic STILL owns them, even from the grave..
DontWorryBeHappy
hello fellow greasespotters!............oh yeah, it was "BIG" alright!..................and yet, as big as it was, it was only the most obvious "tip of the iceberg" of the endemic and profound doctrin
DontWorryBeHappy
why should the "leaders" of twi splinters/offshoots be held accountable for their continued adherence to the teachings of vic?............because until they remove the presence of vic from their consc
WordWolf
I'd like to note that this "separate the fish from the bones" quote comes straight FROM them, specifically from JAL.
I'd be a lot less suspicious of claims like this- except I've been watching the results.
We've seen spiders from people's noses, and leaders who rule by divine fiat,
and "personal prophecies" any good charlatan could equal or better,
and MORE programs where kids pay to perform manual labor,
and leaders who have to be pried off the Christians like a barnacle.
When I see results like I've seen, I have to question my fundamental assumptions, since the evidence isn't matching them.
Maybe there IS NO "separate out the bad doctrines and keep only the good ones."
Maybe the entire FRAMEWORK is harmful, and that FRAMEWORK is what will be brought along.
So long as it is, there can be some COSMETIC changes, and replacing ONE harmful doctrine with ANOTHER harmful doctrine,
but there will still be one or another.
Oh-and honest inquiry is still verboten.....
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WhiteDove
Then again if one looks closely at the doctrine that inspired those actions one would see that it clearly was not fish at all. Personal Prophesy and Jesus Worship were not part of Way doctrine by any means. Rather than eating the fish they seemed to think spiders were a better choice on the menu.
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doojable
I think this says more that the words on the screen reveal, because it is more than that.
This is where the victard's teachings led them.
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rhino
LOL ... good phrase ... but sad if true.
I really question these guys judgment that sign the pledge of allegiance, or loyalty oath ... and if they stood around while people were "excommunicated" for reading a research paper that concluded adultery was wrong ... man oh man ... can they really just glide out of that mind set and into "pure" CFF service?
Agree ... really it is not the "silly little doctrines" that really make the group ... it is how they operate, the "power structure", the "we are right you are wrong" attitudes, getting people to give their money for some invisible higher purpose.
I hope CFF is better ... but as many have said, it seems they have carried a lot of baggage along. I'm curious now ... can't we make open and honest inquiry here? Will they not reveal how they function, what they believe? Surely it is not a secret society, is it? Hide it under a bushel .. NO!
Are GSC'ers deemed possessed? Are they afraid of dialogue?
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WhiteDove
Again I'll point out that the problems occurred from or a result of non - Way doctrines, not (where the victard's teachings led them at all) but in new directions they sought after. Personal Prophesy ,Jesus Worship, Momentus , dialoging with people such as Dale Sides, and other ideas are not Way doctrine nor do they fit into the category of keys to the Word's interpretation. One can theorize that there is some hidden meaning that was not spoken on the screen, but that fails the test in establishing a valid link to any of these ideas and VPW or Way doctrine. I think it must be there somewhere, even though it does not appear to be, because I want it to say that is not a valid claim.
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TheHighWay
I haven't seen any of the offshoot groups manage to separate whatever doctrines they decide to keep or modify, from the basic structure and practices of twi fellowships. I think the point is that all the deeply-igrained concepts of hierarchy, etc. that came from twi (whether they are stated doctrines or not) are the kind of baggage that can easily bring a group down from the inside out.
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penworks
One bit of info to add to this thread:
In '87 after I'd left HQ and was far far away, I told the leader of the first offshoot that unlike him, I wasn't comfortable with assuming that the keys to research, etc. that VP taught were right. For instance, I wondered what the word "scripture" really referred to in that verse that says all scripture is given by inspiration of God, etc.
I told him that as far as I knew, the cannon of the Bible wasn't established at the time that verse was written so how could "scripture" in that verse refer to the whole Bible as we have it today? He said he didn't have time to do all that research...
That's one reason why I had a problem with "offshoots." So I went to college, read lots of books, and got a degree in English.
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waysider
Quite a bit of what was "taught" in TWI was done so by virtue of OJT (On The Job Training).
Just because something does not appear in a book or tape or magazine or class, does not negate the reality that it was taught.
The proof that these things were "taught" is manifest in the finished product of the workman just as the finished product of a bricklayer is evidence of the OJT the workman received.
It has long been my belief that a large amount of the damages caused by TWI came more from the lifestyle we led than from the various academic doctrines such as 4 crucified, etc. To catagorize these lessons as being Non-TWI is an incorrect and unrealistically minimizing assessment of their effects. OJT played a major role in the believer's "education" once he or she submitted themselves to a program such as The Corps or Fellow Laborers.
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socks
Anyone who thinks in any way, even for a minute, that VPW would be proud of and supportive of anyone changing anything he taught in the PFAL series - is nuts. Bona fide, certifiably out of their mind. Crazy. Whack-o. One bun shy of a weinie roast. Light in the pockets. Look up "no-brainer" in the dictionary and you'll see their photo for the example labelled "No Brains".
Doing so reinvents VPW's known history and virtually every known encounter he ever had with anyone who wanted to change or correct what he'd researched. His mind was made up - and I can gawr-antee he'd be chewing shortie Kools and spitting them out sideways over anything resembling "Personal Prophecy". Unless of course it was ray-vuhlation.
Cus then he'd know for sure - it was from the wrong gawd.
In John L's case, he knows better than to say something like that. That's his way of saying "VPW isn't here to argue so hey, this sounds good, makes me feel good and will feel good for others so yeah, sure. Whatever I say."
Yeah, nice goin' penworks. Who's got that kind of time?
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WhiteDove
No Doubt, Couldn't have said it better.
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now I see
Their top leaders have NEVER appologized for their hand in destroying lives as LCM's henchmen when they were a part of TWI; they didn't think they needed to.
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skyrider
So, once again.......when wierwille came across the topic of adultery, he would tend to ascribe to it as spiritual adultery..?? Like.....moving it into the "spirit of whoredoms" category or "spirit of lust".....diverting one's attention away from its *true intent.*
Gee, what if we used these same "wierwille research skills" to Luke 18:20..?
Luk 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
...1) Do not commit SPIRITUAL adultery.
...2) Do not SPIRITUALLY kill.
...3) Do not SPIRITUALLY steal.
...4) Do not bear SPIRITUAL false witness.
...5) SPIRITUALLY honour thy faher and thy mother.
It gets kinda crazy to *spiritualize* everything........doesn't it?
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pond
When John Lynn was fired and began his own ministry he went about town asking people to tell their horro storys from the way.
He played the role of being the one who knew best the troubles we have seen and now he was gonna save the day with his new and improved ministry.
he knew better than come along as a bull in a glass shop as is his character and ersonality so he played it all for pity and compassion for the victims.
and it worked he got much attention and ears to hear, nence money, people were so accumstomed to paying to hear what they should do they automaticly fell into line as the thing to do next.
John Lynn knows how to play a crowd if I ever saw one he can sell.
so then he left some out those who had less anger and just pain and confusion and lost in aworld without the way dictators.
and they were in it to love people or worship them so he puts in the glip about how proud vpw would be.
it worked , he caught many with that showing his softer side hehe of how in spite of his angry cross country unemployed trips to get the moeny to survive he still "cared" about the 'soul" of the ministry which bottom line was vpw.
all the while stirring up those in discontent and pulling them in.
you do not think he learned anything in all those years of faithful service?
I know he did , plenty.
enough to build his own ministry and support his lifestyle and do what he wanted to do.
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T-Bone
Skyrider – vp's trick of spiritualizing adultery is one of the many booby traps he set for followers – a sinful bomb just waiting to destroy the life of an unsuspecting soul. vp took a weak stance on sin [the incident of vowing to never preach another negative sermon in PFAL, the "softening" of living in sin to "broken fellowship"]. The reason it's a booby trap is because the Bible clearly indicates one cannot commit adultery and walk away unscathed. Proverbs has a whole section on adultery with a stern warning in
Proverbs 6:27-29 KJV
Can a man take fire in his bosom and his clothes not be burned?
Can one go upon hot coals, and his feet not be burned?
So he that goeth in to his neighbour's wife; whosover toucheth her shall not be innocent.
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Estimated Prophet
Thanks Pawtucket.
I'm still curious as to what motivated this interview
and you have given me some insight.
Perhaps there were systematic problems with the organization.
But I think the interview shows the corrupt practices of top level leadership more than the organization as a whole.
On a local level, I think their were more Ralph Dubofski types on the scene than those leaders who took to Lording it over everyone.
In 1987 in Dallas there was a huge meeting of all twig coordinators in respnse to John Lynn's first visit to Dallas.
John at the time, had a list of controversial charges against TWI
of which adultery was the most alarming.
Our Limb Coordinator, Britt Lynn, admitted he was opening a can of worms.
He faced to controversy head on, looking for two or three witnesses to verify the charges.
There must have been a hundred or so of us there. It was very tense.
As for adultery.
No one condoned it it any way, shape , or form.
We looked at transcripts from the Christian Family and Sex class.
No doctrinal support there for adulterous behavior.
" I'd rather my kids come home hot and bothered than satisfied and scared"
The concern with John Schoenheit's paper on adultery, as I recall,
was the statement that went something like:
'perhaps Dr. Wierwill was wrong about adultery'
The concern was that this statement opened the door to further notions
such as
'perhaps Dr was wrong about tithing...
about believing,
about One God...etc."
The concern was that this attacked the integrity of the Word.
I now believe that forbidding these sorts of questions
allowed doctrinal and practical error to go unchecked.
We looked at I and II Timothy.
How the first century church first turned away from the Man of God
Then turned away from the Word of God
Then turned away from God.
I know my opinion isn't largely embraced here, and that's fine.
I just see a lot more of what was Right with the organization as a whole in those days.
I suggest, as we look back with our perspective of today,
that we don't ignore all the good and godly elements.
I encourage one and all to resist the devil and to draw nigh unto Christ.
I have been observing this for a long time.
I think looking at the muck and the mire is not healing.
Tell me Pawtucket,
Did Ralph have anything to say about the Lord Jesus Christ in your conversation?
I promise you,
If you will turn your eyes upon Jesus
( and perhaps my words sound foolish to some,
but they are in truth The Power of God
and the Wisdom of God)
If you will look full in his wonderful face,
then the things of earth will grow strangely dim...."
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rascal
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Ham
Too bad he didn't hold himself and the underbelly of twi to the same standard..
I don't think it was about the "integrity of the word" being attacked. Naw.. what was it REALLY about?
well.. is it possible, that if told the truth of the matter, people might come to a logical conclusion that they were flim-flammed by a huckster, who didn't believe a single plagiarized word of what he preached?
along with an awareness that the *men* who came after him, were no better?
If you havent' confronted one of these mog types up to their necks in adultery and or substance "problems" , you haven't really lived life yet..
I remember getting one of the "little guys" by the ear.. didn't know it at the time it was so rampant up in the ivory tower..
"growwwer, hissssss.. don't you DARE TOUCH MY RIGHTEOUSNESSSSSSSSS"
no kidding..
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lindyhopper
By who's estimations...
uh, Prophet(?), when I listened to it, I believe Ralph was asked a specific question, to take us through those difficult times and events, and then he answered it according to his perspective and role in those events. I don't think Jesus was there in person at the time, so he didn't come up in the conversation. Does every conversation and interview here and on GSC radio need to have JC mentioned in it?Some might think I'm foolish for saying this but...
If you do that enough buying groceries will grow strangely dim. Some of us don't want to be so aloof. Some of us, in spite of all the bad, actually enjoy this life here on earth. Look at the recent posts... people are very curious about why all the good things that they remember, as do you, went so sour. So, closure is part of the issue. These are real phycological needs for many people to have to move on. Some of us just have an itch of curiosity that needs to be scratched.
I think Ralph's interview is one of the more damning things on this site. Here is a former top leader in TWI, in his own voice, a voice that even I, rather young in the 80s, recognize. IMO it does way more than a hundred clamoring anonymous faceless posters does for those that are in these groups and have thought about leaving and for those that think we are all just a bunch of whiney ax grinders, no matter how true our stories are. So I believe the interview will help. Maybe if we all believe that enough... lol
I don't know why the timing is what it is, but I know that RD (at least in his current screen name) has only been here since last year. Who knows when Paw figured out who he was and how long it took to get him to do an interview, all the logistics etc etc. It was the eighth year GSC anniversary, that is something. Ralph D seems to have nothing to gain by doing the interview. So why is the timing so suspect to you?
oh and what the hell is this creepy quote from?
satisfied? <_<
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socks
The timing for information, facts and "truth"? Interesting question. What would be a bad time?
Figure - this stuff is over 20 years old. If not now, hopefully it would be pretty soon then, while some of us can still see and hear and sit up without dribbling. Anyhoo -
Der R-ster's been around this board for a long time, probably had to re-register after a long absence. See? Age sets in.
I doubt it was planned with ulterior motive...
Or...
...Was it....?
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Actually I think this was timed to coincide with the annual Spring Volksmarch in New Knoxville, and a major leaflet drop over Shelby County.
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T-Bone
What qualified vp to teach a class on Christian Family & Sex?...."Christian" + "Family" - He was a bogus preacher who had little regard for families – he expected followers to hold TWI's agenda in higher priority than their own families…."Sex" – hmmm…who would be more qualified than a sexual predator to handle this subject? Makes about as much sense as having Jeffrey Dahmer teaching a college course on rape, necrophilia and cannibalism.
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pawtucket
You must have missed my question at the beginning of the interview, we were discussing what led up to the publishing of the 37 page letter. Had the interview been about Jesus Christ, I am sure he would have addressed that. I generally stay away from people's belief systems. This interview was designed to get another view of those years shortly after VP's death. We've heard the company spin, now we hear it from someone that was there and someone I respect. We weren't focused on the "spiritual" aspect as much as the physical events. I think the physical events speak volumes to the spiritual condition at that time.
As a side note, we thought about whether to make this interview public. While it is about events from 20 years ago, it was still relevant today, filling in the gaps from that time for many people. I know that when I heard this information for the first time, it cleared up a lot of questions. (like I thought it was just me)
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Oakspear
Tell me pawtucket (if that's your real name), did Ralph have anything to say about the Lord Krishna during your conversation?
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lindyhopper
Ah Sh!T, Oak!
I didn't think about that.
Krishna is going to open a can of whoop-a$$ now!
(runs home to get tarp, blankees, and duct tape)
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skyrider
Absolutely!! .........
And, obviously......wierwille KNEW what he was doing was WRONG, otherwise he would have openly taught "the benefits of adultery" to all the corps......right? And, ya know.....4 sessions of the pfal class deal with the holy spirit field and how God OPENLY DISPLAYED the outpouring of His gift on the day of Pentecost.
Wierwille knew II Corinthians 4:2.......didn't he?
2Cor 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
<_<
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