If this had been taught openly, though, TWI would have had very little impact, because most of us would have run the other way as fast as our Adidas could carry us!
Yea...kinda makes me think he was a "wolf in sheeps clothing"
But we all saw clues....didnt we?
P.S. I was in a big meeting once before it started and VPW was SCREAMING at a cameraman who wasn't following him properly, I pity the poor guy who was running that camera...VPW really laid into him...
That's why they put their own personal slant on "To the pure, all things are pure...." so that they could then justify whatever their fleshly lusts, the lust of their eyes, and the pride of their lives desired.
Looking back is a good thing to do, if for nothing else, to put things in perspective. That era from 1985-1987 was a very confusing time for a great many people. Once you have the back story, much of the confusion melts away. It's not a pretty picture. It does make clear that a number of people had an agenda. For me, the fact that the adultery paper was attacked uniformly by ALL the major players speaks volumes. Geer and Martindale were at odds on most things, but they were one voice on the adultery paper. To support the adultery paper, they would be opening up their closet full of skeletons. They couldn't do that. Their precious organization would crumble before them.
When I first heard about this stuff, I was devastated. I remember the meeting with John Lynn and a number of women stood up that had fallen victim at the hands of these "Leaders" I didn't want to believe it. I had put my trust and my spiritual wellbeing in this organization. Of course, it broke our trust in God. So many people abandoned having God in their lives in any way, form or manner. The Way was turning people against God! Forget the abuse and destruction to the individual, they got folks to not trust or believe in God. That's big!!
Hopefully the details in the interview will show people that this was a systemic problem with an organization and not a problem with God.
what's amazing, is that one of the major issues, the adultery issue, that was the REAL heart of what was all wrong in twi, was just casually brushed aside as something which could be "handled" with the proper renewed mind and such.
Were they THAT blind?
The facts would suggest so.. when things went "wrong".. along with the apparent lack of success of loy's classes.. they proceeded to look under every rock for the supposed cause, and initiated the loyalty purge, the infamous homo purge, then a budget and even a pet purge.. then an "unproductive evil people" purge, then a debt purge.. one purge after another, and with each action, the "ministry" still wasn't exactly "right".
I wonder what it takes for someone to develop that kind of stubbornness, hard-heartedness, and unbelief..
One can see the seeds the vicster sowed along the way.. allusions to David, being the king, all the women in the kingdom belong to the king.. the question and answer session at the end of cfas, when he couldn't say "thus sayeth the lord, adultery is WRONG.." along with hints that people need to lighten up in the sexual categories of life, so as to be able to minister better.. exhibiting pornography in church.. being "cool" enough to understand the slang words regarding sexual organs, reproduction.. along with warnings in the advanced class, how the lord was NOT in the business of giving revelation about what's going on in a leader's bedroom, providing it didn't "get out of hand" like with David and Bathsheba.
I saw one of his personally trained "men" counsel a lady "HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO GO OVER THIS? It's not a BIG DEAL!!! Just loosen up, and get laid.."
I think the reason it was for a few, is that he planted the seeds, and carefully observed by the reaction who would go for it, and who would resist. I think he OWNED the ones who took the bait..
So many people abandoned having God in their lives in any way, form or manner.
As far as I'm concerned, I don't know if I have personally abandoned God. I just refuse to try to define him with my small intellect anymore.
I talked with John S. in his home near HQ the day after he was fired. He was devestated as we all were, financially left hung out to dry, like R.D., his house was being watched, etc. and he recounted some of R.D.'s part in this story which we hear now in full on GSC in this interview. The extent of VP's covert activity apparently goes back to Van Wert days. We know now that the "lockbox" intimidation technique was the way it was all kept secret.
I agree with Paw that it is good to go back to these events and gain perspective. It is, however, sickening for me. VP and his trained puppets, L*M, etc. were and are sick sick sick people who've caused untold damage to hundreds of people. I feel sick thinking about all this...but thankful this interview was aired.
BTW - I was able to leave hq and twi not long after R.D...but that's another story.
If this had been taught openly, though, TWI would have had very little impact, because most of us would have run the other way as fast as our Adidas could carry us!
WG
That's the way I see it, too. The trinity stuff, dead are not alive, etc., made people think. "Adultery is OK" would have made people leave. Except, of course, those who were into it.
I think some of those guys who took the bait.. vic STILL owns them, even from the grave..
Well they just have to click their heels together three times ... and say ... "Vic was a charlatan"
(throwing a bucket of water on the wicked witch might be worth a try as well ... )
But besides the lockbox intimidation, I think everyone was too intimidated to go against official or unofficial TWI dogma. It just was too much to go against the whole structure and confront established error or wrong doctrine.
There was no room for hashing out different opinions or viewpoints. If you disagreed with leadership, YOU were the problem, out of fellowship, possessed ... and subjected to torment. And to go against vp on anything seemed to be breaking the whole ministry ... there was very little middle ground, if any. We all had so much invested in the thang ... and it seemed confronting the MOG was sacrilege.
In hindsight, I had a few opportunites to pick up on some clues, aggresively investigate the hints, and challenge what was going on ... but it was never quite in the open, so it was easier to let it go.
But maybe you are right Ham, once part of the adultery club, they were much more committed to the wrong doctrine and the secrecy. At that point, they would not only be confronting vp, but confronting their own actions. They were their own separate cult within the cult ... the inner sanctum, behind the big curtain ...
More Wizard of Oz analogies I guess ... everyone afraid to confront the great and powerrful Oz ... :( but an intriguing look at our human nature.
When I first heard about this stuff, I was devastated. I remember the meeting with John Lynn and a number of women stood up that had fallen victim at the hands of these "Leaders" I didn't want to believe it. I had put my trust and my spiritual wellbeing in this organization. Of course, it broke our trust in God. So many people abandoned having God in their lives in any way, form or manner. The Way was turning people against God! Forget the abuse and destruction to the individual, they got folks to not trust or believe in God. That's big!!
Ironic, isn't it? The "ministry" that claimed to want to move the Word over the World then "reclaimed it's own" in nasty fashion.
They couldn't figure out whether or not it was OK to sleep with your neighbor's spouse and yet we trusted them to know the inside scoop on------ ETERNAL LIFE!
At that time, the one thing that keep going through my mind was V*nce F*nneg@n
standing on the main stage at the ROA during '82 WOW training saying:
And all you single people - No Sex, NO SEX.
Guess the single WOW's weren't spiritually mature enough to handle it.
And the whole lockbox thing allowed this practice to fester and become poisonous
not only in the organization, but in too many innocent people's lives.
As a wise person once said:
Those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing.
The reason others weren't "spiritual enough" to handle it is because they wouldn't be able to hide and keep it underground. It would have been exposed, and the WOWs were out there being public representatives of the ministry to be sure it looked better than it was. HOWEVER, how many of you had problems with your WOW family members screwing each other? I had a WOW sister who couldn't keep her legs together, and she screwed 2 of our 3 WOW brothers. It caused a lot of problems for our family.
When they put single men and women together, I wonder WTF?? Did they actually think nothing would happen? No other Christian organization would even allow women and men to dwell together in an outreach program.
Most churches I've been apart of don't allow counseling between men and women in private. It's a way to keep accountability.
There was no room for hashing out different opinions or viewpoints. If you disagreed with leadership, YOU were the problem, out of fellowship, possessed ... and subjected to torment. And to go against vp on anything seemed to be breaking the whole ministry ... there was very little middle ground, if any. We all had so much invested in the thang ... and it seemed confronting the MOG was sacrilege.
This happens a lot in regular churches as well....How dare you question the pastor!
So many people never knew about the *secret* doctrines until they found themselves in leaderships cross hairs.
I spoke with one woman who as a new corpes, was being groomed by her tc, her work coordinator, the people who surrounded themselves around her.
She never dreamed that all of the teachings about serving, and meeting the man of God`s needs, all parts of the body being the same, no condemnation etc...was in sexual context.
She was mortified to find herself in the mog`s presence with one of her boss` expected to preform in a threesome.
Same with forced abortions...or the corpes app was an unbreakable commitment to God, Most didn`t know about the teachings until they were faced with trying to leave.
Most didn`t know ...
I Have said it before....
If the green card had said that in enrolling in this class one would be expected to give 15 percent of their income for the rest of their lives, submit to any bozo higher on the twi leader than they were, allow them access to ones finances and personal information, be required to allow their children to be abused, if attractive service any mog that took a fancy and abort any embarrassing little repercussions.
One of the most biblical N.T. statements regarding the whole matter is in Romans 13:
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.
Retooling the Old Testament and the 4 Gospels out of our "New Testament" understanding is a huge mistake, as we've seen. If reduced to the statement- "for our learning" - that statement carries a question - "what are we actually learning?" or :) ?
Everything isn't cast out in lieu of Christ's redemptive work. Christ fulfilled the law - so it follows plainly that the lessons learned previously have fulfillment in "new life" in Christ. Finished work indeed, but work still to be done in response, as well.
We "Gentiles", and all members of this new "church of Christ", don't replace the moral laws with a new morality, we have a new source of reference though in Christ, specifically, for fulfillment of what morality is and has always been. For a Christian anyway. And nearly all Christian sects, societies and organizations and churches, fraternal or formal, recognize that.
The reason others weren't "spiritual enough" to handle it is because they wouldn't be able to hide and keep it underground. It would have been exposed, and the WOWs were out there being public representatives of the ministry to be sure it looked better than it was. HOWEVER, how many of you had problems with your WOW family members screwing each other? I had a WOW sister who couldn't keep her legs together, and she screwed 2 of our 3 WOW brothers. It caused a lot of problems for our family.
When they put single men and women together, I wonder WTF?? Did they actually think nothing would happen? No other Christian organization would even allow women and men to dwell together in an outreach program.
Most churches I've been apart of don't allow counseling between men and women in private. It's a way to keep accountability.
When I was in TWI I always felt like sex was a free for all. My WOW sister had sex with men she wanted to recruit. I had sex with my WOW brother. This was in Pennsylvania. I lived in Billings, MT for a couple of years after my WOW year with Donna Martindale's sister and her husband (Lou Guigiou) and I found out a lot of inside information. Lou convinced me it was alright to give him a full body massage without questioning and I would also give the limb leader one when he would visit. I felt I couldn't question any of this because they were MOG. Thank goodness I wasn't raped, but I feel for those women who were at the mercy of the so called "MOG". When I left in '87, along with many others, the whole adultery thing all made sense. I could see how what we were taught in the PFAL class led into physical adultery being ok. What craziness!
When I got witnessed to in 1972, one of the single young ladies immediately took it upon herself to undershepherd me.
She made sure she spent much one-on-one time with me.
The prospect of a personal relationship was a deliberate deception on her part.
I can say this because neither she nor any of the other believers bothered to tell me she was already engaged.
She did not wear a ring and never talked about the guy.
Half way through the class I found out by accident but by then I was more interested in the class than I was in her.
Right after the class ended, they got married.
Too late. I was already hooked on The Way.
This whole thing was sanctioned by the class instructor.
TWI definitely used deceptive practices to sell "PLAF(The Wonder Class)" even as early as 1972.
Does telling that incident embarrass me? Of course it does. But if it helps people understand how TWI has been a deceptive organization even from the early days, then so be it.
edited to note this:
The class instructor was not just some local believer, he was there specifically at the request of International HQ to run classes.
He was there as a representative of the organization.
hello fellow greasespotters!............oh yeah, it was "BIG" alright!..................and yet, as big as it was, it was only the most obvious "tip of the iceberg" of the endemic and profound doctrinal and practical error with which vic thoroughly and throughly,(sic!), corrupted the whole of twi!...........he surrounded himself with "leaders" whom he "owned", as ham put it, because they shared the same guilt as he did, and earned that guilt by their acceptance and practice of vic's personal perversions as truth, and "proper" conduct for the mogs!......this profound and utter betrayal of the trust and innocence of their brothers and sisters in christ is at the root of their vicious rejection of christian scripture. vic revelled in his role as "father in the word"........he loved dropping hints that he was "the 14th apostle"..........he feasted on the adulation of his youthful followers,and the energy of their "enthusiastic believing",............he needed the strength of their purity to replenish his own bankrupt soul, devoid of any genuine, developed, moral compass of his own, despite all those decades of "biblical research" and speaking in tongues!
that's why the topic of the first thread i initiated here at the greasespot was "forgiveness".............imho, the pastoral epistles, as well as numerous scriptures throughout the OT, gospels and the NT, require of persons who assume "leadership positions" in the communities of "god's people", moral and behavioral standards that are quite plainly prescribed for them in order that they may indeed remain, "above reproach"!..........these "moral prescriptions" are therefore "godbreathed", and thus, within the confines of even twi theology, are irrefutable, immutable, and irrevocable, since they reflect the omniscient "mind of god".............this now places vic, the doofus from okie, and every other "leader" i mentioned in the first post on that first thread of mine in september of 2007.at "lagerheads" with god himself..............that's the commitment arena............the commitments to god to live according to the "stricter" demands required of the "lifestyle of leadership" is not between the leaders and those they lead...........it's between the "leaders" and their god, the father of jesus christ!...............the benefits to the believers are the "by-products" of the "leaders'" faithfulness to his/her commitments to god as prescribed quite specifically by god in the pastoral epistles...........if these "leaders" break those commitments, they are responsible to god to repent, and then ask god for forgiveness, as well as reconcile with the believer(s) that were injured or offended...............none of this was ever considered by twi "leaders" let alone attempted!..............this then obviously begs the question, to whom were vic, et al "committed"???................they were certainly arrogantly, self-deluded into thinking they could "hide" these perverted "doctrines" from the "believers".............but did they think they could "hide" from god???..................the answer to that is either "yes", or, they themselves were firmly convinced that indeed, their personal perversions were "godly", and proof of their immense "spiritual maturity" as well as proof that their "precious lives" were a "gift to god's people"!!..............as incredible as it seems, the latter was true then, and still is today for rosie, martindale, and everyone else who accepts vic as a "man'o'gawd"!
if you've read schoenheit's adultery paper, you too must wonder why he was fired for writing it, along with mirabito, hickmann, bo, and smith?..........what was so wrong about that paper??............how many are still "possessed" from reading a paper that any 6th grader could understand?......what were twi and geer seeing that "contradicted" what vic taught??
that's why that 37 page letter was viewed with such hatred and disdain by geer and the twi bot, and the "yak twig"!.........the authors of that letter went out of their way to avoid casting any aspersions at vic and spent so much time praising and quoting him...........it was a last-ditch effort to try to get the "top leadership" of twi to come together and deal with the most glaring doctrinal errors embedded in their "ministry".................line up everything with "the word" and get twi rolling again................reading that letter today is like reading a post from oldiesman or whitedove, (no offense intended fellas!).......it's that innocuous in terms of "attacking" vic or even the bot for that matter!...........and yet, the reaction was the firing of the lynn's, and the widespread and meanspirited defamation and disinformation campaign against the others who participated in the letter thing. unfortunately, back then, twi was able to control the "spin"........there was no internet, there was no "organized" alternative "ministry"............it's also why there are still a large number of folks in twi and its splinters/offshoots, who owe a large number of believers at least an honest attempt at reconciling these issues, imho............it's also why they'll never get one!
so, imho, for all you "leaders" out there, mentioned in so many various threads around the greasespot cafe, living in nice homes paid for by believers, or living at a way nash "root locale", or otherwise believer provided property, or running "ministries" that perpetuate "the word" vic taught you by charging for your own versions on tape, cd, video, dvd, etc., etc., etc.,........of his pfal class, and the rest of his "biblical research principles", and the other books vic "wrote", or making up your own hurtful doctrinal and practical errors.................take a "check-up from the neck up"............why do you still teach this crap???................the integrity of your "word" is buried with vic at that gawdy fountain!!............how are you different?.................peace.
It IS almost unbelievable...these guys went after people at their most vulnerable point...their faith in God. They lied in God's name!
They lived a hedonistic lifestyle under the guise of being ministers of Christ. They made their filthy lucre and they screwed up a lot of people's lives. The secret society of f**kmeisters...and I think it's appropriate to acknowledge Paul Allen who was instrumental in booting king okie out of wayland with his lawsuit...it was long overdue that someone took that jerk to task.
...and today...what does twi teach about adultery? Have they repented and asked anyone for forgiveness?
...The late Jim Doop told me that the first thing VP wanted from him when he arrived in California was to take him to some orgies and porno places.
"They got folks not to trust or believe in God" That says it all!
The enemy comes to steal, kill and destroy.
The same thing happened to the twig in Bedford when one of the girls who were sent to recruit for PFAL
took a potential PFAL recruit to bed. I don't believe he ever took the class. Today this guy is a very well respected minister in our area. He has been coming down hard on TWI ever since.
This was before I had heard anything about what was going on at HQ. I just thought it was an isolated incident at the time.
There are many churches in our small town and I know of at least one just recently that has had a similar situation happen to them. Not of this magnitude of course but devastating none the less.
So it is not just TWI it is anyone who dares to believe in Jesus Christ and are doing something as threatening as reconciling men and women to God.
God bless you all!
I still believe it is a spiritual battle and I am still trusting and believing in God with all the strength I can muster. Even though my heart truly aches for all that have been hurt more so because,
.................take a "check-up from the neck up"............why do you still teach this crap???................the integrity of your "word" is buried with vic at that gawdy fountain!!............how are you different?.................peace.
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Ham
I think some of those guys who took the bait.. vic STILL owns them, even from the grave..
DontWorryBeHappy
hello fellow greasespotters!............oh yeah, it was "BIG" alright!..................and yet, as big as it was, it was only the most obvious "tip of the iceberg" of the endemic and profound doctrin
DontWorryBeHappy
why should the "leaders" of twi splinters/offshoots be held accountable for their continued adherence to the teachings of vic?............because until they remove the presence of vic from their consc
Watered Garden
It is absolutely amazing, isn't it?
If this had been taught openly, though, TWI would have had very little impact, because most of us would have run the other way as fast as our Adidas could carry us!
WG
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Steveo
Yea...kinda makes me think he was a "wolf in sheeps clothing"
But we all saw clues....didnt we?
P.S. I was in a big meeting once before it started and VPW was SCREAMING at a cameraman who wasn't following him properly, I pity the poor guy who was running that camera...VPW really laid into him...
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brideofjc
That's why they put their own personal slant on "To the pure, all things are pure...." so that they could then justify whatever their fleshly lusts, the lust of their eyes, and the pride of their lives desired.
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pawtucket
Looking back is a good thing to do, if for nothing else, to put things in perspective. That era from 1985-1987 was a very confusing time for a great many people. Once you have the back story, much of the confusion melts away. It's not a pretty picture. It does make clear that a number of people had an agenda. For me, the fact that the adultery paper was attacked uniformly by ALL the major players speaks volumes. Geer and Martindale were at odds on most things, but they were one voice on the adultery paper. To support the adultery paper, they would be opening up their closet full of skeletons. They couldn't do that. Their precious organization would crumble before them.
When I first heard about this stuff, I was devastated. I remember the meeting with John Lynn and a number of women stood up that had fallen victim at the hands of these "Leaders" I didn't want to believe it. I had put my trust and my spiritual wellbeing in this organization. Of course, it broke our trust in God. So many people abandoned having God in their lives in any way, form or manner. The Way was turning people against God! Forget the abuse and destruction to the individual, they got folks to not trust or believe in God. That's big!!
Hopefully the details in the interview will show people that this was a systemic problem with an organization and not a problem with God.
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Ham
what's amazing, is that one of the major issues, the adultery issue, that was the REAL heart of what was all wrong in twi, was just casually brushed aside as something which could be "handled" with the proper renewed mind and such.
Were they THAT blind?
The facts would suggest so.. when things went "wrong".. along with the apparent lack of success of loy's classes.. they proceeded to look under every rock for the supposed cause, and initiated the loyalty purge, the infamous homo purge, then a budget and even a pet purge.. then an "unproductive evil people" purge, then a debt purge.. one purge after another, and with each action, the "ministry" still wasn't exactly "right".
I wonder what it takes for someone to develop that kind of stubbornness, hard-heartedness, and unbelief..
One can see the seeds the vicster sowed along the way.. allusions to David, being the king, all the women in the kingdom belong to the king.. the question and answer session at the end of cfas, when he couldn't say "thus sayeth the lord, adultery is WRONG.." along with hints that people need to lighten up in the sexual categories of life, so as to be able to minister better.. exhibiting pornography in church.. being "cool" enough to understand the slang words regarding sexual organs, reproduction.. along with warnings in the advanced class, how the lord was NOT in the business of giving revelation about what's going on in a leader's bedroom, providing it didn't "get out of hand" like with David and Bathsheba.
I saw one of his personally trained "men" counsel a lady "HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO GO OVER THIS? It's not a BIG DEAL!!! Just loosen up, and get laid.."
I think the reason it was for a few, is that he planted the seeds, and carefully observed by the reaction who would go for it, and who would resist. I think he OWNED the ones who took the bait..
As far as I'm concerned, I don't know if I have personally abandoned God. I just refuse to try to define him with my small intellect anymore.
Didn't exactly work before..
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penworks
I talked with John S. in his home near HQ the day after he was fired. He was devestated as we all were, financially left hung out to dry, like R.D., his house was being watched, etc. and he recounted some of R.D.'s part in this story which we hear now in full on GSC in this interview. The extent of VP's covert activity apparently goes back to Van Wert days. We know now that the "lockbox" intimidation technique was the way it was all kept secret.
I agree with Paw that it is good to go back to these events and gain perspective. It is, however, sickening for me. VP and his trained puppets, L*M, etc. were and are sick sick sick people who've caused untold damage to hundreds of people. I feel sick thinking about all this...but thankful this interview was aired.
BTW - I was able to leave hq and twi not long after R.D...but that's another story.
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GeorgeStGeorge
That's the way I see it, too. The trinity stuff, dead are not alive, etc., made people think. "Adultery is OK" would have made people leave. Except, of course, those who were into it.
George
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Ham
I think some of those guys who took the bait.. vic STILL owns them, even from the grave..
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rhino
Well they just have to click their heels together three times ... and say ... "Vic was a charlatan"
(throwing a bucket of water on the wicked witch might be worth a try as well ...
)
But besides the lockbox intimidation, I think everyone was too intimidated to go against official or unofficial TWI dogma. It just was too much to go against the whole structure and confront established error or wrong doctrine.
There was no room for hashing out different opinions or viewpoints. If you disagreed with leadership, YOU were the problem, out of fellowship, possessed ... and subjected to torment. And to go against vp on anything seemed to be breaking the whole ministry ... there was very little middle ground, if any. We all had so much invested in the thang ... and it seemed confronting the MOG was sacrilege.
In hindsight, I had a few opportunites to pick up on some clues, aggresively investigate the hints, and challenge what was going on ... but it was never quite in the open, so it was easier to let it go.
But maybe you are right Ham, once part of the adultery club, they were much more committed to the wrong doctrine and the secrecy. At that point, they would not only be confronting vp, but confronting their own actions. They were their own separate cult within the cult ... the inner sanctum, behind the big curtain ...
More Wizard of Oz analogies I guess ... everyone afraid to confront the great and powerrful Oz ... :( but an intriguing look at our human nature.
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doojable
This is insightful and bears repeating:
Ironic, isn't it? The "ministry" that claimed to want to move the Word over the World then "reclaimed it's own" in nasty fashion.
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bfh
When I read the adultery paper some 21 years ago, I knew, I just knew, that many
in top leadership were engaged in this practice. Although, I didn't know about the
"let's get our wives to pimp other women for us" or the "sexual healing" piece of it.
At that time, the one thing that keep going through my mind was V*nce F*nneg@n
standing on the main stage at the ROA during '82 WOW training saying:
And all you single people - No Sex, NO SEX.
Guess the single WOW's weren't spiritually mature enough to handle it.
And the whole lockbox thing allowed this practice to fester and become poisonous
not only in the organization, but in too many innocent people's lives.
As a wise person once said:
Those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing.
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waysider
Ironic, though, isn't it?
They couldn't figure out whether or not it was OK to sleep with your neighbor's spouse and yet we trusted them to know the inside scoop on------ ETERNAL LIFE!
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Nottawayfer
The reason others weren't "spiritual enough" to handle it is because they wouldn't be able to hide and keep it underground. It would have been exposed, and the WOWs were out there being public representatives of the ministry to be sure it looked better than it was. HOWEVER, how many of you had problems with your WOW family members screwing each other? I had a WOW sister who couldn't keep her legs together, and she screwed 2 of our 3 WOW brothers. It caused a lot of problems for our family.
When they put single men and women together, I wonder WTF?? Did they actually think nothing would happen? No other Christian organization would even allow women and men to dwell together in an outreach program.
Most churches I've been apart of don't allow counseling between men and women in private. It's a way to keep accountability.
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brideofjc
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rascal
So many people never knew about the *secret* doctrines until they found themselves in leaderships cross hairs.
I spoke with one woman who as a new corpes, was being groomed by her tc, her work coordinator, the people who surrounded themselves around her.
She never dreamed that all of the teachings about serving, and meeting the man of God`s needs, all parts of the body being the same, no condemnation etc...was in sexual context.
She was mortified to find herself in the mog`s presence with one of her boss` expected to preform in a threesome.
Same with forced abortions...or the corpes app was an unbreakable commitment to God, Most didn`t know about the teachings until they were faced with trying to leave.
Most didn`t know ...
I Have said it before....
If the green card had said that in enrolling in this class one would be expected to give 15 percent of their income for the rest of their lives, submit to any bozo higher on the twi leader than they were, allow them access to ones finances and personal information, be required to allow their children to be abused, if attractive service any mog that took a fancy and abort any embarrassing little repercussions.
We`d have run for our lives.
Damned right there was a secret agenda.
We would have run for our lives.
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socks
It is big!
One of the most biblical N.T. statements regarding the whole matter is in Romans 13:
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.
Retooling the Old Testament and the 4 Gospels out of our "New Testament" understanding is a huge mistake, as we've seen. If reduced to the statement- "for our learning" - that statement carries a question - "what are we actually learning?"
or :) ?
Everything isn't cast out in lieu of Christ's redemptive work. Christ fulfilled the law - so it follows plainly that the lessons learned previously have fulfillment in "new life" in Christ. Finished work indeed, but work still to be done in response, as well.
We "Gentiles", and all members of this new "church of Christ", don't replace the moral laws with a new morality, we have a new source of reference though in Christ, specifically, for fulfillment of what morality is and has always been. For a Christian anyway. And nearly all Christian sects, societies and organizations and churches, fraternal or formal, recognize that.
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Lisa
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Lisa
When I was in TWI I always felt like sex was a free for all. My WOW sister had sex with men she wanted to recruit. I had sex with my WOW brother. This was in Pennsylvania. I lived in Billings, MT for a couple of years after my WOW year with Donna Martindale's sister and her husband (Lou Guigiou) and I found out a lot of inside information. Lou convinced me it was alright to give him a full body massage without questioning and I would also give the limb leader one when he would visit. I felt I couldn't question any of this because they were MOG. Thank goodness I wasn't raped, but I feel for those women who were at the mercy of the so called "MOG". When I left in '87, along with many others, the whole adultery thing all made sense. I could see how what we were taught in the PFAL class led into physical adultery being ok. What craziness!
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waysider
When I got witnessed to in 1972, one of the single young ladies immediately took it upon herself to undershepherd me.
She made sure she spent much one-on-one time with me.
The prospect of a personal relationship was a deliberate deception on her part.
I can say this because neither she nor any of the other believers bothered to tell me she was already engaged.
She did not wear a ring and never talked about the guy.
Half way through the class I found out by accident but by then I was more interested in the class than I was in her.
Right after the class ended, they got married.
Too late. I was already hooked on The Way.
This whole thing was sanctioned by the class instructor.
TWI definitely used deceptive practices to sell "PLAF(The Wonder Class)" even as early as 1972.
Does telling that incident embarrass me? Of course it does. But if it helps people understand how TWI has been a deceptive organization even from the early days, then so be it.
edited to note this:
The class instructor was not just some local believer, he was there specifically at the request of International HQ to run classes.
He was there as a representative of the organization.
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frank123lol
One female fellow wow said to me,"Have them fall in love with the christ in you",
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DontWorryBeHappy
hello fellow greasespotters!............oh yeah, it was "BIG" alright!..................and yet, as big as it was, it was only the most obvious "tip of the iceberg" of the endemic and profound doctrinal and practical error with which vic thoroughly and throughly,(sic!), corrupted the whole of twi!...........he surrounded himself with "leaders" whom he "owned", as ham put it, because they shared the same guilt as he did, and earned that guilt by their acceptance and practice of vic's personal perversions as truth, and "proper" conduct for the mogs!......this profound and utter betrayal of the trust and innocence of their brothers and sisters in christ is at the root of their vicious rejection of christian scripture. vic revelled in his role as "father in the word"........he loved dropping hints that he was "the 14th apostle"..........he feasted on the adulation of his youthful followers,and the energy of their "enthusiastic believing",............he needed the strength of their purity to replenish his own bankrupt soul, devoid of any genuine, developed, moral compass of his own, despite all those decades of "biblical research" and speaking in tongues!
that's why the topic of the first thread i initiated here at the greasespot was "forgiveness".............imho, the pastoral epistles, as well as numerous scriptures throughout the OT, gospels and the NT, require of persons who assume "leadership positions" in the communities of "god's people", moral and behavioral standards that are quite plainly prescribed for them in order that they may indeed remain, "above reproach"!..........these "moral prescriptions" are therefore "godbreathed", and thus, within the confines of even twi theology, are irrefutable, immutable, and irrevocable, since they reflect the omniscient "mind of god".............this now places vic, the doofus from okie, and every other "leader" i mentioned in the first post on that first thread of mine in september of 2007.at "lagerheads" with god himself..............that's the commitment arena............the commitments to god to live according to the "stricter" demands required of the "lifestyle of leadership" is not between the leaders and those they lead...........it's between the "leaders" and their god, the father of jesus christ!...............the benefits to the believers are the "by-products" of the "leaders'" faithfulness to his/her commitments to god as prescribed quite specifically by god in the pastoral epistles...........if these "leaders" break those commitments, they are responsible to god to repent, and then ask god for forgiveness, as well as reconcile with the believer(s) that were injured or offended...............none of this was ever considered by twi "leaders" let alone attempted!..............this then obviously begs the question, to whom were vic, et al "committed"???................they were certainly arrogantly, self-deluded into thinking they could "hide" these perverted "doctrines" from the "believers".............but did they think they could "hide" from god???..................the answer to that is either "yes", or, they themselves were firmly convinced that indeed, their personal perversions were "godly", and proof of their immense "spiritual maturity" as well as proof that their "precious lives" were a "gift to god's people"!!..............as incredible as it seems, the latter was true then, and still is today for rosie, martindale, and everyone else who accepts vic as a "man'o'gawd"!
if you've read schoenheit's adultery paper, you too must wonder why he was fired for writing it, along with mirabito, hickmann, bo, and smith?..........what was so wrong about that paper??............how many are still "possessed" from reading a paper that any 6th grader could understand?......what were twi and geer seeing that "contradicted" what vic taught??
that's why that 37 page letter was viewed with such hatred and disdain by geer and the twi bot, and the "yak twig"!.........the authors of that letter went out of their way to avoid casting any aspersions at vic and spent so much time praising and quoting him...........it was a last-ditch effort to try to get the "top leadership" of twi to come together and deal with the most glaring doctrinal errors embedded in their "ministry".................line up everything with "the word" and get twi rolling again................reading that letter today is like reading a post from oldiesman or whitedove, (no offense intended fellas!).......it's that innocuous in terms of "attacking" vic or even the bot for that matter!...........and yet, the reaction was the firing of the lynn's, and the widespread and meanspirited defamation and disinformation campaign against the others who participated in the letter thing. unfortunately, back then, twi was able to control the "spin"........there was no internet, there was no "organized" alternative "ministry"............it's also why there are still a large number of folks in twi and its splinters/offshoots, who owe a large number of believers at least an honest attempt at reconciling these issues, imho............it's also why they'll never get one!
so, imho, for all you "leaders" out there, mentioned in so many various threads around the greasespot cafe, living in nice homes paid for by believers, or living at a way nash "root locale", or otherwise believer provided property, or running "ministries" that perpetuate "the word" vic taught you by charging for your own versions on tape, cd, video, dvd, etc., etc., etc.,........of his pfal class, and the rest of his "biblical research principles", and the other books vic "wrote", or making up your own hurtful doctrinal and practical errors.................take a "check-up from the neck up"............why do you still teach this crap???................the integrity of your "word" is buried with vic at that gawdy fountain!!............how are you different?.................peace.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Terrific thread...great posts...
It IS almost unbelievable...these guys went after people at their most vulnerable point...their faith in God. They lied in God's name!
They lived a hedonistic lifestyle under the guise of being ministers of Christ. They made their filthy lucre and they screwed up a lot of people's lives. The secret society of f**kmeisters...and I think it's appropriate to acknowledge Paul Allen who was instrumental in booting king okie out of wayland with his lawsuit...it was long overdue that someone took that jerk to task.
...and today...what does twi teach about adultery? Have they repented and asked anyone for forgiveness?
...The late Jim Doop told me that the first thing VP wanted from him when he arrived in California was to take him to some orgies and porno places.
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jeast
"They got folks not to trust or believe in God" That says it all!
The enemy comes to steal, kill and destroy.
The same thing happened to the twig in Bedford when one of the girls who were sent to recruit for PFAL
took a potential PFAL recruit to bed. I don't believe he ever took the class. Today this guy is a very well respected minister in our area. He has been coming down hard on TWI ever since.
This was before I had heard anything about what was going on at HQ. I just thought it was an isolated incident at the time.
There are many churches in our small town and I know of at least one just recently that has had a similar situation happen to them. Not of this magnitude of course but devastating none the less.
So it is not just TWI it is anyone who dares to believe in Jesus Christ and are doing something as threatening as reconciling men and women to God.
God bless you all!
I still believe it is a spiritual battle and I am still trusting and believing in God with all the strength I can muster. Even though my heart truly aches for all that have been hurt more so because,
"They got folks not to trust or believe in God"
There will be justice!
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GrouchoMarxJr
...Amen.
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