Well, twi has tried so hard to "play nice" at least on the surface since lcm got booted and the last of the lawsuits was settled. I don't think they have issued those kinds of rants in awhile. But neither have they issued apologies or anything recanting those policies or that behavior...
I'd say that they're being extra careful regarding who gets what information, what goes into print and on tape. The early documents were often supplied by people who were still technically "in", but regularly posting here or at WayDale. I remember when I was still in and being surprised at how much insider information was being posted, and then later became one of thsoe undercover insiders myself.
I can tell you fore sure it's more boring, more dead, more stifling, more religious than ever.
I think that's a lot of it... while lcm ruled he went from one 'sensational' topic to the next. The more he stirred things up the more he personally stood out (for better or worse). That's the way he liked it. Today's leadership doesn't want to stand out. They just want to fade into the background so they can ride the golden horse back to the barn.
I think that's a lot of it... while lcm ruled he went from one 'sensational' topic to the next. The more he stirred things up the more he personally stood out (for better or worse). That's the way he liked it. Today's leadership doesn't want to stand out. They just want to fade into the background so they can ride the golden horse back to the barn.
So would you say that those who are still in TWI supported Martindale, or did they just tough it out while they knew he was wrong, and were waiting for a better leader? Kind of like what everyone is hoping will happen with president Bush and the current election? lol
So would you say that those who are still in TWI supported Martindale, or did they just tough it out while they knew he was wrong, and were waiting for a better leader? Kind of like what everyone is hoping will happen with president Bush and the current election? lol
Except the USA is not a cult that we could leave at any point and has leaders with clearly defined term limits and checks and balances for abuse of power (even though they have been tested and worn in recent years) and is ultimately subject to the people every election year. The TWI was always more of a dictatorship, like Bush's fantasies.
I think most people that are still in (like my family) supported Martindale until the curtain was pulled back. Most of us didn't realize how bad it was at the time even if we were right in the middle of it. They ARE STILL waiting for a better leader. They are in because they don't see any more appealing options and they are comfortable. They think the Way has the best thing going. The Way looks real good right now to those that dealt with some of the sh!t of the Martindale years. Some of them are stuck in it as well, not willing to sacrifice their family or their family's happiness for religion especially now that things are more tame, which is understandable. Still others are in it because years and years of being under the thumb of the Way and its doctrines have left them with little genuine self esteem and confidence to go and live life on their own without 'the ministry' to be there to tell them what to do, how to live, help them, and perhaps save them from the fears of the future. I don't doubt that most people that are still in after all that has happened have thought about leaving more than once and have uniquely personal reasons for staying.
Now there is the next generation coming of age like your girlfriend and more likely she really doesn't know from experience how bad it was maybe not even a true conceptual understanding of what went on. It isn't exactly an open conversation on the inside. There is this place, a few other smaller sites, and there is their filtered view. Kind of like watching pundits on the 24 hr news networks, except in this case there is more truth about what has happened and more openness on this site than there is within TWI. Many of us here have "moved on" but still talk about it. TWI seems to have encouraged it's people to move on and not to "dwell on the past" (read discuss it at all) as if the two are mutually exclusive.
As pointed out, the events of recent years have been documented here on these threads by the handful of those that have left since 2000. I left early in 2001. For my area 2001 still sucked.
So would you say that those who are still in TWI supported Martindale, or did they just tough it out while they knew he was wrong, and were waiting for a better leader? Kind of like what everyone is hoping will happen with president Bush and the current election? lol
Hmmm, how would I respond to this....
I left in late '05. I would have to say that there are a few different categories involved.
(probably many more than what I've listed below too.)
- The Martindale megalomaniacs who secretly hope for his return or someone to stand up and take his place so they don’t have to play nice guy anymore and can be the spiritual bullies they were before.
- There are those that were on the outskirts and may not have believed Martindale but followed along because they felt entrapped in the system of the Way. They secretly rejoiced at his departure and are probably still waiting for the glory of the old days to return. - ha- good luck
- There are those that honestly found a group that excepts them for who they are and feel that the requirements to rise in spirituality are better than being alone.
- There are those that have been in so long that they cant accept or believe that The Way could be wrong because that would make them feel shamed for going along with it, so they stay with what’s comfortable.
- There are a few that have been around since VPW, believe his teachings, laugh at the current system, but go with the flow and sit on the sidelines, watching because there families and friends are all involved.
- There are those that are too new and gullible to see what is really happening.
- and of course there are those that believe it hook, line and sinker, sit through the classes, go Way Disciple, staff, Way Corp, Fellowship Coordinators, etc... thinking that there works on earth and for The Way will earn them a box-seat when the Lord returns.(refer to my first description)
And of course they all have been spiritually abused and beaten down to believe that there is nothing except The Way(cough), I mean The Word.
/vent on
I said this a year or two ago that a comparison could be made with an analogy about prison.
You can take someone from a high security prison were the guards are constantly criticizing every step and move you make and tell you its for your own good.
Then take that same prisoner and remove them from the jailhouse and place them on house arrest.
This prisoner now has freedoms from the oppression of the guards and the rules of the jailhouse, but remember and, hopefully the prisoner will too, that no matter how nice things are now, they are still in a prison and under the rules placed down by the administration and still lack the freedoms granted to the rest of society.
My point being was that when they found out about Martindale they covered it up. Only once it became public did action get taken. They didn’t boot him, he resigned. They never openly condemned him or apologized for allowing this to happen. They housed him for at least a couple years in secret. They never corrected his teachings, except maybe on adultery, but it was only for political correctness.
So I asked my self what had changed? The rules were lessened through inaction, there was no correcting of doctrine taught and no apology for things done. So, The Way put a pretty dressing on there prison, fooled everyone that things had changed, when all they did was slide into the shadows for awhile waiting for the dust to settle. These people weren't freed, they are still spiritually abused, downtrodden and whipped, and now living in self-imposed "spiritual" house arrest.
Every time I think of this, I remember either VPW or LCM (cant remember who said it) that "the problem with humanity is that they love slavery and love to have laws placed upon them. Jesus came to set us free from the Law, so why place yourself under it anymore. Live by Grace"
OMG- I cringe and retch every time I think about it, knowing that they were two-faced liars saying to live by grace but expecting you to jump through the ministry hoops to gain spirituality in their eyes by taking this class or that program or having to sit through this 24hr prayer, SIT or Prophesying on demand of leadership. Making yourself available for their whimsical pleasures and needs regardless of your own, the list goes on...
We were both posting at the same time Lindy :D , I agree completely.
It really is sad to stand on the outside and look in and frustrating that they wanna stay in their lil prison. I guess it's like repeat offenders that keep returning to jail; they have been institutionalized to The Way and don't even realize it or are too scared to leave or in few cases, too tired to fight anymore.
They state their "research" is done from a "positive framework". They also state they don't commit to publication until they're "fully persuaded" on a subject and some more blather about being unemotional, detached in their consideration of whatever it is they're supposedly researching.
The Way International hasn't produced any "research" of any substance, for years and you'll get plenty of opinions here as to whether there was every any worthwhile work done. Be that as it may, there is no current work presented on their site. No books, no original reference works, no nothing - that isn't based on work that was done many years ago. Everything they're supposedly "researching" and publishing is something that's a regurgitation of what was published many years ago, in some cases over 40 years ago.
An example of something "recent" was the Martindale class that he produced to replace their original "Foundational" series with something more appropriate for their then current level of confusion.
My point - they're full of it. Look at what's on their site - I can tell you that stuff's been redone for years, over and over. They don't dare publish in full public view their belief that they're the "true household of God", and the "true" believers for "this day and time", who have the only true and complete "accuracy of God's Word" to teach. They don't state their core beliefs online where everyone can see it because - and this is my opinion after being in the Way for 21 years, from 1968 through 1989 - they can't back it up, they don't have anything resembling a "research" staff that can produce an informed and transparent view into what they believe and why.
They're a dwindling population, is my take, so fortunately the trouble reported is shrinking too.
I've never met JustSayNo, that I know of, and probably rarely run into here, yet there are so many similarities in our two posts that we wrote at basically the same time.
It is almost as if we were apart of the same cult or something!
So would you say that those who are still in TWI supported Martindale, or did they just tough it out while they knew he was wrong, and were waiting for a better leader?
Well, maybe a look at the past will give you some insight into the present:
In my case, I supported Martindale whole-heartedly when he was installed as President in 1982 because I didn't know any better. (I got involved in twi in 1981) All I knew was the company line which was that VPW listened to God and chose Craig to carry on the mission.
Progressively jumping through hoops I ended up in the college program for a year in the mid-80s. And frankly, that was a completely enjoyable time. I learned a lot, felt like I saw God do some pretty cool things, and wasn't completely way-brained by the end of it. But my big mistake was that I then married a fella who was "in for life" and followed his plan from then on.
We went into way corps training in 1987 and I watched things go crazy around me. At first it made me support Martindale more because it appeared he was being venomously attacked by folks who were hoping for a power coup. But by the time I left HQ in 1990, I had had enough personal encounters with Martindale and twi's flaws (and the arrogant leadership who didn't seem to care) that I just wanted to forget about them and focus on being a good leader in my assigned location. However, I soon realized that the crap didn't stop at the boundaries of HQ, and that I was woefully un-trained in the realities of actually helping people --- I was sick of it all within a year and would have just walked away if I could.
But remember, I was married to a die-hard and by then, kids were involved, so I felt I needed to weigh my actions very carefully. Any discussion that disparaged twi or the leadership was either shut down or reported to said leadership by my spouse. I quickly learned to keep my thoughts to myself. That pretty much leads to a victim/captive mentality -- you can't act on your gut instincts to leave or scream or fight back, so you shut those instincts down so you aren't constantly in self-conflict -- you go along to get along.
TEN YEARS LATER is when I was finally depressed enough, stressed enough, and unhappy with my life enough to contemplate making a break for it (quitting twi and the marriage). And then the lawsuits hit, pulling back the veil and allowing me to see that so much of what went wrong wasn't because of me, but was the result of a system that was terribly flawed in the first place. It was like the stamp of confirmation on all the questions and doubts that had been brewing in the back of my mind for a decade.
But my ex? Still active in twi. Still won't talk about Martindale. Admits twi made some mistakes but believes they have no obligation to apologize. And thinks everything is now back to a "golden age" because the intense pressure of the 90's is no more.
I think you can see from just my own personal example the variations of what even one person can experience, and still appear to be supporting twi. You stay because you believe. You stay because you hope. You stay because of obligations. You stay because of habit. You stay because you don't know what else to do. You stay out of fear. --- take your pick
Well, maybe a look at the past will give you some insight into the present:
In my case, I supported Martindale whole-heartedly when he was installed as President in 1982 because I didn't know any better. (I got involved in twi in 1981) All I knew was the company line which was that VPW listened to God and chose Craig to carry on the mission.
Progressively jumping through hoops I ended up in the college program for a year in the mid-80s. And frankly, that was a completely enjoyable time. I learned a lot, felt like I saw God do some pretty cool things, and wasn't completely way-brained by the end of it. But my big mistake was that I then married a fella who was "in for life" and followed his plan from then on.
We went into way corps training in 1987 and I watched things go crazy around me. At first it made me support Martindale more because it appeared he was being venomously attacked by folks who were hoping for a power coup. But by the time I left HQ in 1990, I had had enough personal encounters with Martindale and twi's flaws (and the arrogant leadership who didn't seem to care) that I just wanted to forget about them and focus on being a good leader in my assigned location. However, I soon realized that the crap didn't stop at the boundaries of HQ, and that I was woefully un-trained in the realities of actually helping people --- I was sick of it all within a year and would have just walked away if I could.
But remember, I was married to a die-hard and by then, kids were involved, so I felt I needed to weigh my actions very carefully. Any discussion that disparaged twi or the leadership was either shut down or reported to said leadership by my spouse. I quickly learned to keep my thoughts to myself. That pretty much leads to a victim/captive mentality -- you can't act on your gut instincts to leave or scream or fight back, so you shut those instincts down so you aren't constantly in self-conflict -- you go along to get along.
TEN YEARS LATER is when I was finally depressed enough, stressed enough, and unhappy with my life enough to contemplate making a break for it (quitting twi and the marriage). And then the lawsuits hit, pulling back the veil and allowing me to see that so much of what went wrong wasn't because of me, but was the result of a system that was terribly flawed in the first place. It was like the stamp of confirmation on all the questions and doubts that had been brewing in the back of my mind for a decade.
But my ex? Still active in twi. Still won't talk about Martindale. Admits twi made some mistakes but believes they have no obligation to apologize. And thinks everything is now back to a "golden age" because the intense pressure of the 90's is no more.
I think you can see from just my own personal example the variations of what even one person can experience, and still appear to be supporting twi. You stay because you believe. You stay because you hope. You stay because of obligations. You stay because of habit. You stay because you don't know what else to do. You stay out of fear. --- take your pick
What you've said here is very telling. It reminds me of a time when I spoke to Stephanie's mom, and she mentioned her beliefs and "the ministry." As she talked about it, by the tone of her voice I definitely sensed complacency, but at the same time I felt she was guilty about something. I didn't say anything, just went "Mhm" and "Oh, ok." Maybe I'm going out on a limb here, but I feel that when Steph's mom and dad were in the ministry back in the old days, they were happy with it and they truly believed it, and they still do. She knew Wierwille quite well before he died in 1985. I'm not sure about the implications of that friendship between her and Wierwille, but maybe she thought he was truly a man of God and she just followed the ministry without knowledge of the inside information. Perhaps she and Steph's dad never left because TWI brings them peace and comfort, maybe they're somewhat scared to leave, and maybe they've been in it so long that it's just a thing they believe and do and that's all there is to it. I don't know...but I do know what I sensed in her voice from that conversation with her on the phone.
From a psychological perspective, this mindset is characteristic of a member of a cultic organization. It's a structured group, most of whose members demonstrate unquestioning loyalty to a charismatic leader (such as VPW or LCM). The cult leader will usually govern every aspect of the lives of their followers, often threatening those who choose to leave with something like eternal damnation, or in the case of LCM, being outside of the "true household of God." There's usually coercion by leaders to conform to what they say or what everyone else is doing, etc. And usually young people are attracted to these charismatic movements because we're still trying to find ourselves. The recruiter for such a group will often try to sympathize with our concerns and worries and fears in life, and they will tell us that we need to join this group or that organization to help find direction. It's just a part of the human condition to want to find belonging, to want to be with like-minded people. Usually though, the followers will form an unhealthy allegiance to the cult leader or the group itself. Of course TWI is nothing like Jonestown or the Branch Davidians, but the way her mom spoke to me and the way Stephanie tends to speak about her beliefs is very telling. Steph...when we talk about what we believe or something relating to religion...I asked her once to explain to me the Law of Believing in her own words. It was very hard for her, and other times when we've talked about my views of TWI's theology and of Wierwille, she tends to get somewhat defensive. Her defensiveness isn't really very noticeable, but it's there.
Hmm...so yeah. Thanks for your post HighWay. I was able to glean a lot out of that. :)
It reminds me of a time when I spoke to Stephanie's mom, and she mentioned her beliefs and "the ministry." As she talked about it, by the tone of her voice I definitely sensed complacency, but at the same time I felt she was guilty about something.
Chances are good she wasn't at all aware of the way she sounded to you. But I would guess that she was habitually choosing her words very carefully. See, in order to defend the current twi you have to somehow laud the past but defend why it has changed without ever mentioning the lcm era... quite a trick.
Of course TWI is nothing like Jonestown or the Branch Davidians, but the way her mom spoke to me and the way Stephanie tends to speak about her beliefs is very telling.
I beg to differ. I saw a new documentary on Jonestown about a year ago. They interviewed folks who were "leadership" in the church, and the things that came out of their mouths could have come out of my own mouth about twi at one point. And what do you call the farm in New Knoxville, OH if not an isolationist compound where the leadership rule with an iron fist? Just because they don't have death drills don't think they aren't EXACTLY the same at heart.
I asked her once to explain to me the Law of Believing in her own words. It was very hard for her, and other times when we've talked about my views of TWI's theology and of Wierwille, she tends to get somewhat defensive. Her defensiveness isn't really very noticeable, but it's there.
It is very typical that she couldn't define a twi concept in her own words. I have often found conversations with my ex to be loaded with twi jargon and catch-phrases. And he often discusses things that have no twi context at all by quoting whole passages verbatim from twi texts. He doesn't even realize he's doing it. And when we were splitting up and I said I didn't think he knew how to think for himself anymore he scoffed, then went in the next room and called the leadership to find out how he should respond to my accusation. (I kid you not.) It confirmed for me like nothing else could that there was no reasoning with someone that far out of touch with his own mindset and behaviors.
Chances are good she wasn't at all aware of the way she sounded to you. But I would guess that she was habitually choosing her words very carefully. See, in order to defend the current twi you have to somehow laud the past but defend why it has changed without ever mentioning the lcm era... quite a trick.
So, if I were to ask Steph's mother what happened when Martindale was in power, what kind of a response would I get? :blink:
I beg to differ. I saw a new documentary on Jonestown about a year ago. They interviewed folks who were "leadership" in the church, and the things that came out of their mouths could have come out of my own mouth about twi at one point. And what do you call the farm in New Knoxville, OH if not an isolationist compound where the leadership rule with an iron fist? Just because they don't have death drills don't think they aren't EXACTLY the same at heart.
So, if I were to ask Steph's mother what happened when Martindale was in power, what kind of a response would I get?
You know, I really don't know the answer to that... my experience is limited to just a couple of still-ins. But my guess would be that she would say that he was a man who sat at the man-of-god's feet, and yet let the power go to his head and did some bad things that really strayed from what our-father-in-the-word taught us, but once it was found out he was removed. And now the minstry has moved away from the methods he used and gone back to its original vision.
That's pretty much the song and dance I get from my ex.
What she won't tell you is what Martindale did or that VPW trained Martindale to think and behave this way. (if you press her she may say that he got caught in a one-time consentual affair) She won't tell you that it went on for years, with married and unmarried women, sometimes with and sometimes against their will, and with not only the knowledge but the support of the top leadership. She won't tell you that he was named in more than one lawsuit for it. And, she won't tell you that they only removed him as president because of the lawsuits or that they only removed him from the ministry because of court testimony that made him a liability.
She probably won't tell you that he single-handedly shifted the focus of twi from "outreach" to "internal purging" and became so vulger in his teachings and letters that some of us could hardly stand to sit through them, and that many, many innocent people were accused of things with no more proof than "spiritual suspicion" and that many homes and lives were broken up to make local leaders look good in his eyes.
She also won't tell you that they still sell his books even though the teachings, writings and music of other "copouts" was immediately stripped from the bookstore, or that his syllabus (only slightly altered) is still used as the basis for their current foundational class (it is just taught by a different set of folks now). She won't tell you that he is still financially and emotionally supported by twi. And she won't bring up the fact that his ex-wife is best friends with the current president of twi and therefore was not asked to leave (like every other wife was booted along with her hubby, if he got booted) but got to keep her cushy job and her cushy house at HQ to this day.
It appears that all the documents, on this site and on other sites, that I have read about TWI and its troubling history are from the year 2000 at the latest. Is there anything more recent?
hello: i am a way goer!! started going in 1980 , was gone twice from about 87 or 88 until 94, and again from about 97 or 98 till 2001, went way disciple 03-04 to alabama which proved what i knew all along that alabama is mississippi's step child,thats right no difference and i got proof cause i'm from mississippi!!!! o.k. back to the topic. i dont have anymore access to info about twi than anyone else,except maybe upcoming class dates,events etc. i know who my limb and region leader is, i go to his house once a month for branch meeting yes he's my branch coordinator also , 3 in one but i dont remember much about the trinity movies from the 1970's they were westerns.(some people are probably wondering what in the world is this guy trying to say!!!!), some of my co-workers think i got dropped on my head when i was little!!!! i'd like to say that twi has changed dramatically in the past 7 years. all the bad leadership has ben weeded out, and the leadership we have now are just awesome. if they werent i wouldnt have come back. i know there were a lot of bad leaders that hurt a lot of people. there are those who are still around and maybe even lurking on this website that would love to inflict pain and kaos on our ministry and seek to destroy it. so twi along with myself and the rest are not going to allow that stuff to happen. i personally wouldnt talk to any of those tyrants much less provide them with ministry information. i read some post from people on here who i think want to bring down twi. i have also read MANY post on here from people who were hurt by these former way goers. anyone on this site that wants to inquire about twi or start going to fellowship again should contact twi. you will probably be srceened like i was but this is necessary to keep the riff-raff out. i have a ginuine desire to learn about GOD if not i wouldnt be allowed back. i dont want people coming in who want to destroy twi or who dont want to know GOD. never again will people weather leaders or followers be allowed to cause trouble,they will be thrown OUT!!! all i can say is this is not the same ministry i came to 7 years ago, it has really grown into wonderful ministry with loving,caring,how can i help you people, and without all that ego stuff!!! i along with a lot of you was wrongly kicked out back in the late 90's under that jerk lcm's super clean household quest. i hope this helps you,GOD bless you p.s i just want to make something VERY clear . i am NOT here to spy on anyone,keep tabs on this site or anyone, nor am i an operitive for twi. i am here to look for old believer friends and help anyone that i can,there are only 2 other believers that i told about this site and they are friends in tx and az and they might even check it out.
i'd like to say that twi has changed dramatically in the past 7 years. all the bad leadership has ben weeded out,
I must disagree. Things might be better in your local corner of the twi world, but believe me, all the bad leadership has not been weeded out. You see, I knew the current president of the organization when I was on HQ staff. She, according to her own depositions during the Martindale trial, had full knowledge of his sexual shenanigans, yet did nothing. She allegedly helped line him up with some of the women he took advantage of. Hardly the activity of a true Christian leader, wouldn't you agree?
She's still there--not weeded out at all. Not only is she still there, but she's pretty much in charge. If I were you, that alone would be enough to get me to question whether everything is as it seems.
I could rattle off over a dozen names of "leadership" who decimated whole areas at loy's bidding.. who are still involved. Six of them plowed the "work" here under trying desperately to find what was supposedly wrong with the ministry..
what was wrong? Is it possible that they were following a madman?
loy sifted the corps like wheat.. are you telling me that they fired all of the loy wanabes and brought back the good guys they marked and avoided, and gave the bum's rush?
This is just an honest inquiry here. I'm sure your leadership wouldn't mind answering a few questions.
what about R*Ch#$ad and B*#bara O*ding? They tore into this area like there's no tomorrow.. took advantage of believer's trust, support.. and that wasn't good enough. They were hosts of the meanest, most foul-mouthed loudmouthed sessions (I won't call them twigs or such) with believers here.. they left the area with maybe six "standing" believers out of about fifty or so..
are you telling me they've fired them, put them out of the ministry? Not allowed to come to "twig"? Must be, if they've "weeded out" the scum..
Or what about Ch**s Gr*M&*ic?
he kindly sat with me and my now ex and explained how he'd have to SEPARATE us to get whatever the supposed "truth" we were hiding from him he'd do it.. looking for what was supposedly not causing "the word" to move like it oughter in our area..
this half educated (way corps) bufffoon couldn't figure out that he was following a madman, and trying to sell a madman's unsellable product.
he ran off over fifty percent of the people who really cared around here..
So are you saying that they've FIRED him from his hotshot position, thrown him and his family out of the ministry? Or is he STILL a region coordinator?
What about the current staff and directors at hq? How many subscribed to loy's reign of terror? Have they been FIRED, and are no longer welcome at way functions?
you will probably be srceened like i was but this is necessary to keep the riff-raff out
Only thing I can say, I'd look a little closer to see which side of the screen one is really on..
All the manipulating leaders we dealt with in the nineties are still IN. I have ahard time believing they are just not still nasty, just muzzled, because if they lose more of their area they will lose their position as a leader.
Kicking people out is not a reassuring thing. Who gets to decide who goes????
Recommended Posts
Ham
I'd imagine der vey instituted a few more draconian methods to keep ANYTHING out of the hands of outsiders. Probably little written communication.
No more letters sent out detailing who's been dropped because of suspected homosexuality, or being unproductive..
No more lists sent out, of who's active, dropped, abandoned..
Can't even find a listing on their website about who staff is- region, limb, branch coordinators.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheHighWay
Well, twi has tried so hard to "play nice" at least on the surface since lcm got booted and the last of the lawsuits was settled. I don't think they have issued those kinds of rants in awhile. But neither have they issued apologies or anything recanting those policies or that behavior...
Edited by TheHighWayLink to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
I'd say that they're being extra careful regarding who gets what information, what goes into print and on tape. The early documents were often supplied by people who were still technically "in", but regularly posting here or at WayDale. I remember when I was still in and being surprised at how much insider information was being posted, and then later became one of thsoe undercover insiders myself.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
polar bear
If you read back through the "twi" thread you will find many posts about recent events.
I was in till 2003 and have associates who are still in. Ask away.
I can tell you fore sure it's more boring, more dead, more stifling, more religious than ever.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheHighWay
I think that's a lot of it... while lcm ruled he went from one 'sensational' topic to the next. The more he stirred things up the more he personally stood out (for better or worse). That's the way he liked it. Today's leadership doesn't want to stand out. They just want to fade into the background so they can ride the golden horse back to the barn.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Brushstroke
So would you say that those who are still in TWI supported Martindale, or did they just tough it out while they knew he was wrong, and were waiting for a better leader? Kind of like what everyone is hoping will happen with president Bush and the current election? lol
Link to comment
Share on other sites
lindyhopper
Except the USA is not a cult that we could leave at any point and has leaders with clearly defined term limits and checks and balances for abuse of power (even though they have been tested and worn in recent years) and is ultimately subject to the people every election year. The TWI was always more of a dictatorship, like Bush's fantasies.
I think most people that are still in (like my family) supported Martindale until the curtain was pulled back. Most of us didn't realize how bad it was at the time even if we were right in the middle of it. They ARE STILL waiting for a better leader. They are in because they don't see any more appealing options and they are comfortable. They think the Way has the best thing going. The Way looks real good right now to those that dealt with some of the sh!t of the Martindale years. Some of them are stuck in it as well, not willing to sacrifice their family or their family's happiness for religion especially now that things are more tame, which is understandable. Still others are in it because years and years of being under the thumb of the Way and its doctrines have left them with little genuine self esteem and confidence to go and live life on their own without 'the ministry' to be there to tell them what to do, how to live, help them, and perhaps save them from the fears of the future. I don't doubt that most people that are still in after all that has happened have thought about leaving more than once and have uniquely personal reasons for staying.
Now there is the next generation coming of age like your girlfriend and more likely she really doesn't know from experience how bad it was maybe not even a true conceptual understanding of what went on. It isn't exactly an open conversation on the inside. There is this place, a few other smaller sites, and there is their filtered view. Kind of like watching pundits on the 24 hr news networks, except in this case there is more truth about what has happened and more openness on this site than there is within TWI. Many of us here have "moved on" but still talk about it. TWI seems to have encouraged it's people to move on and not to "dwell on the past" (read discuss it at all) as if the two are mutually exclusive.
As pointed out, the events of recent years have been documented here on these threads by the handful of those that have left since 2000. I left early in 2001. For my area 2001 still sucked.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JustSayNO
Hmmm, how would I respond to this....
I left in late '05. I would have to say that there are a few different categories involved.
(probably many more than what I've listed below too.)
- The Martindale megalomaniacs who secretly hope for his return or someone to stand up and take his place so they don’t have to play nice guy anymore and can be the spiritual bullies they were before.
- There are those that were on the outskirts and may not have believed Martindale but followed along because they felt entrapped in the system of the Way. They secretly rejoiced at his departure and are probably still waiting for the glory of the old days to return. - ha- good luck
- There are those that honestly found a group that excepts them for who they are and feel that the requirements to rise in spirituality are better than being alone.
- There are those that have been in so long that they cant accept or believe that The Way could be wrong because that would make them feel shamed for going along with it, so they stay with what’s comfortable.
- There are a few that have been around since VPW, believe his teachings, laugh at the current system, but go with the flow and sit on the sidelines, watching because there families and friends are all involved.
- There are those that are too new and gullible to see what is really happening.
- and of course there are those that believe it hook, line and sinker, sit through the classes, go Way Disciple, staff, Way Corp, Fellowship Coordinators, etc... thinking that there works on earth and for The Way will earn them a box-seat when the Lord returns.(refer to my first description)
And of course they all have been spiritually abused and beaten down to believe that there is nothing except The Way(cough), I mean The Word.
/vent on
I said this a year or two ago that a comparison could be made with an analogy about prison.
You can take someone from a high security prison were the guards are constantly criticizing every step and move you make and tell you its for your own good.
Then take that same prisoner and remove them from the jailhouse and place them on house arrest.
This prisoner now has freedoms from the oppression of the guards and the rules of the jailhouse, but remember and, hopefully the prisoner will too, that no matter how nice things are now, they are still in a prison and under the rules placed down by the administration and still lack the freedoms granted to the rest of society.
My point being was that when they found out about Martindale they covered it up. Only once it became public did action get taken. They didn’t boot him, he resigned. They never openly condemned him or apologized for allowing this to happen. They housed him for at least a couple years in secret. They never corrected his teachings, except maybe on adultery, but it was only for political correctness.
So I asked my self what had changed? The rules were lessened through inaction, there was no correcting of doctrine taught and no apology for things done. So, The Way put a pretty dressing on there prison, fooled everyone that things had changed, when all they did was slide into the shadows for awhile waiting for the dust to settle. These people weren't freed, they are still spiritually abused, downtrodden and whipped, and now living in self-imposed "spiritual" house arrest.
Every time I think of this, I remember either VPW or LCM (cant remember who said it) that "the problem with humanity is that they love slavery and love to have laws placed upon them. Jesus came to set us free from the Law, so why place yourself under it anymore. Live by Grace"
OMG- I cringe and retch every time I think about it, knowing that they were two-faced liars saying to live by grace but expecting you to jump through the ministry hoops to gain spirituality in their eyes by taking this class or that program or having to sit through this 24hr prayer, SIT or Prophesying on demand of leadership. Making yourself available for their whimsical pleasures and needs regardless of your own, the list goes on...
OH - THE HYPOCRISY.
/vent off
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JustSayNO
We were both posting at the same time Lindy :D , I agree completely.
It really is sad to stand on the outside and look in and frustrating that they wanna stay in their lil prison. I guess it's like repeat offenders that keep returning to jail; they have been institutionalized to The Way and don't even realize it or are too scared to leave or in few cases, too tired to fight anymore.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
http://www.theway.org? Check out the website, for a brief aside into their troubling history, as seen from today.
Look at this page. It covers "What is the Way?"
They state their "research" is done from a "positive framework". They also state they don't commit to publication until they're "fully persuaded" on a subject and some more blather about being unemotional, detached in their consideration of whatever it is they're supposedly researching.
The Way International hasn't produced any "research" of any substance, for years and you'll get plenty of opinions here as to whether there was every any worthwhile work done. Be that as it may, there is no current work presented on their site. No books, no original reference works, no nothing - that isn't based on work that was done many years ago. Everything they're supposedly "researching" and publishing is something that's a regurgitation of what was published many years ago, in some cases over 40 years ago.
An example of something "recent" was the Martindale class that he produced to replace their original "Foundational" series with something more appropriate for their then current level of confusion.
My point - they're full of it. Look at what's on their site - I can tell you that stuff's been redone for years, over and over. They don't dare publish in full public view their belief that they're the "true household of God", and the "true" believers for "this day and time", who have the only true and complete "accuracy of God's Word" to teach. They don't state their core beliefs online where everyone can see it because - and this is my opinion after being in the Way for 21 years, from 1968 through 1989 - they can't back it up, they don't have anything resembling a "research" staff that can produce an informed and transparent view into what they believe and why.
They're a dwindling population, is my take, so fortunately the trouble reported is shrinking too.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
lindyhopper
I've never met JustSayNo, that I know of, and probably rarely run into here, yet there are so many similarities in our two posts that we wrote at basically the same time.
It is almost as if we were apart of the same cult or something!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JustSayNO
Dang, I shorted out my monitor.
I laughed so hard, I spit soda all over it.
OH, BTW, HI, Nice to Meet You.
I come out of the shadows a couple times a year when my Way BS meter gets petho and I need to vent.
OH God, did I just say petho- bad boy bad. I meant when the BS meter gets to the boiling point.
ok, I feel better now.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheHighWay
Well, maybe a look at the past will give you some insight into the present:
In my case, I supported Martindale whole-heartedly when he was installed as President in 1982 because I didn't know any better. (I got involved in twi in 1981) All I knew was the company line which was that VPW listened to God and chose Craig to carry on the mission.
Progressively jumping through hoops I ended up in the college program for a year in the mid-80s. And frankly, that was a completely enjoyable time. I learned a lot, felt like I saw God do some pretty cool things, and wasn't completely way-brained by the end of it. But my big mistake was that I then married a fella who was "in for life" and followed his plan from then on.
We went into way corps training in 1987 and I watched things go crazy around me. At first it made me support Martindale more because it appeared he was being venomously attacked by folks who were hoping for a power coup. But by the time I left HQ in 1990, I had had enough personal encounters with Martindale and twi's flaws (and the arrogant leadership who didn't seem to care) that I just wanted to forget about them and focus on being a good leader in my assigned location. However, I soon realized that the crap didn't stop at the boundaries of HQ, and that I was woefully un-trained in the realities of actually helping people --- I was sick of it all within a year and would have just walked away if I could.
But remember, I was married to a die-hard and by then, kids were involved, so I felt I needed to weigh my actions very carefully. Any discussion that disparaged twi or the leadership was either shut down or reported to said leadership by my spouse. I quickly learned to keep my thoughts to myself. That pretty much leads to a victim/captive mentality -- you can't act on your gut instincts to leave or scream or fight back, so you shut those instincts down so you aren't constantly in self-conflict -- you go along to get along.
TEN YEARS LATER is when I was finally depressed enough, stressed enough, and unhappy with my life enough to contemplate making a break for it (quitting twi and the marriage). And then the lawsuits hit, pulling back the veil and allowing me to see that so much of what went wrong wasn't because of me, but was the result of a system that was terribly flawed in the first place. It was like the stamp of confirmation on all the questions and doubts that had been brewing in the back of my mind for a decade.
But my ex? Still active in twi. Still won't talk about Martindale. Admits twi made some mistakes but believes they have no obligation to apologize. And thinks everything is now back to a "golden age" because the intense pressure of the 90's is no more.
I think you can see from just my own personal example the variations of what even one person can experience, and still appear to be supporting twi. You stay because you believe. You stay because you hope. You stay because of obligations. You stay because of habit. You stay because you don't know what else to do. You stay out of fear. --- take your pick
Edited by TheHighWayLink to comment
Share on other sites
Brushstroke
What you've said here is very telling. It reminds me of a time when I spoke to Stephanie's mom, and she mentioned her beliefs and "the ministry." As she talked about it, by the tone of her voice I definitely sensed complacency, but at the same time I felt she was guilty about something. I didn't say anything, just went "Mhm" and "Oh, ok." Maybe I'm going out on a limb here, but I feel that when Steph's mom and dad were in the ministry back in the old days, they were happy with it and they truly believed it, and they still do. She knew Wierwille quite well before he died in 1985. I'm not sure about the implications of that friendship between her and Wierwille, but maybe she thought he was truly a man of God and she just followed the ministry without knowledge of the inside information. Perhaps she and Steph's dad never left because TWI brings them peace and comfort, maybe they're somewhat scared to leave, and maybe they've been in it so long that it's just a thing they believe and do and that's all there is to it. I don't know...but I do know what I sensed in her voice from that conversation with her on the phone.
From a psychological perspective, this mindset is characteristic of a member of a cultic organization. It's a structured group, most of whose members demonstrate unquestioning loyalty to a charismatic leader (such as VPW or LCM). The cult leader will usually govern every aspect of the lives of their followers, often threatening those who choose to leave with something like eternal damnation, or in the case of LCM, being outside of the "true household of God." There's usually coercion by leaders to conform to what they say or what everyone else is doing, etc. And usually young people are attracted to these charismatic movements because we're still trying to find ourselves. The recruiter for such a group will often try to sympathize with our concerns and worries and fears in life, and they will tell us that we need to join this group or that organization to help find direction. It's just a part of the human condition to want to find belonging, to want to be with like-minded people. Usually though, the followers will form an unhealthy allegiance to the cult leader or the group itself. Of course TWI is nothing like Jonestown or the Branch Davidians, but the way her mom spoke to me and the way Stephanie tends to speak about her beliefs is very telling. Steph...when we talk about what we believe or something relating to religion...I asked her once to explain to me the Law of Believing in her own words. It was very hard for her, and other times when we've talked about my views of TWI's theology and of Wierwille, she tends to get somewhat defensive. Her defensiveness isn't really very noticeable, but it's there.
Hmm...so yeah. Thanks for your post HighWay. I was able to glean a lot out of that. :)
~Phil
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheHighWay
Chances are good she wasn't at all aware of the way she sounded to you. But I would guess that she was habitually choosing her words very carefully. See, in order to defend the current twi you have to somehow laud the past but defend why it has changed without ever mentioning the lcm era... quite a trick.
I beg to differ. I saw a new documentary on Jonestown about a year ago. They interviewed folks who were "leadership" in the church, and the things that came out of their mouths could have come out of my own mouth about twi at one point. And what do you call the farm in New Knoxville, OH if not an isolationist compound where the leadership rule with an iron fist? Just because they don't have death drills don't think they aren't EXACTLY the same at heart.
It is very typical that she couldn't define a twi concept in her own words. I have often found conversations with my ex to be loaded with twi jargon and catch-phrases. And he often discusses things that have no twi context at all by quoting whole passages verbatim from twi texts. He doesn't even realize he's doing it. And when we were splitting up and I said I didn't think he knew how to think for himself anymore he scoffed, then went in the next room and called the leadership to find out how he should respond to my accusation. (I kid you not.) It confirmed for me like nothing else could that there was no reasoning with someone that far out of touch with his own mindset and behaviors.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Brushstroke
So, if I were to ask Steph's mother what happened when Martindale was in power, what kind of a response would I get? :blink:
Good point... :(
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheHighWay
You know, I really don't know the answer to that... my experience is limited to just a couple of still-ins. But my guess would be that she would say that he was a man who sat at the man-of-god's feet, and yet let the power go to his head and did some bad things that really strayed from what our-father-in-the-word taught us, but once it was found out he was removed. And now the minstry has moved away from the methods he used and gone back to its original vision.
That's pretty much the song and dance I get from my ex.
What she won't tell you is what Martindale did or that VPW trained Martindale to think and behave this way. (if you press her she may say that he got caught in a one-time consentual affair) She won't tell you that it went on for years, with married and unmarried women, sometimes with and sometimes against their will, and with not only the knowledge but the support of the top leadership. She won't tell you that he was named in more than one lawsuit for it. And, she won't tell you that they only removed him as president because of the lawsuits or that they only removed him from the ministry because of court testimony that made him a liability.
She probably won't tell you that he single-handedly shifted the focus of twi from "outreach" to "internal purging" and became so vulger in his teachings and letters that some of us could hardly stand to sit through them, and that many, many innocent people were accused of things with no more proof than "spiritual suspicion" and that many homes and lives were broken up to make local leaders look good in his eyes.
She also won't tell you that they still sell his books even though the teachings, writings and music of other "copouts" was immediately stripped from the bookstore, or that his syllabus (only slightly altered) is still used as the basis for their current foundational class (it is just taught by a different set of folks now). She won't tell you that he is still financially and emotionally supported by twi. And she won't bring up the fact that his ex-wife is best friends with the current president of twi and therefore was not asked to leave (like every other wife was booted along with her hubby, if he got booted) but got to keep her cushy job and her cushy house at HQ to this day.
But that's just my guess...
Edited by TheHighWayLink to comment
Share on other sites
shiftthis
scroll down and read my post...from shiftthis
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shiftthis
hello: i am a way goer!! started going in 1980 , was gone twice from about 87 or 88 until 94, and again from about 97 or 98 till 2001, went way disciple 03-04 to alabama which proved what i knew all along that alabama is mississippi's step child,thats right no difference and i got proof cause i'm from mississippi!!!! o.k. back to the topic. i dont have anymore access to info about twi than anyone else,except maybe upcoming class dates,events etc. i know who my limb and region leader is, i go to his house once a month for branch meeting yes he's my branch coordinator also , 3 in one but i dont remember much about the trinity movies from the 1970's they were westerns.(some people are probably wondering what in the world is this guy trying to say!!!!), some of my co-workers think i got dropped on my head when i was little!!!! i'd like to say that twi has changed dramatically in the past 7 years. all the bad leadership has ben weeded out, and the leadership we have now are just awesome. if they werent i wouldnt have come back. i know there were a lot of bad leaders that hurt a lot of people. there are those who are still around and maybe even lurking on this website that would love to inflict pain and kaos on our ministry and seek to destroy it. so twi along with myself and the rest are not going to allow that stuff to happen. i personally wouldnt talk to any of those tyrants much less provide them with ministry information. i read some post from people on here who i think want to bring down twi. i have also read MANY post on here from people who were hurt by these former way goers. anyone on this site that wants to inquire about twi or start going to fellowship again should contact twi. you will probably be srceened like i was but this is necessary to keep the riff-raff out. i have a ginuine desire to learn about GOD if not i wouldnt be allowed back. i dont want people coming in who want to destroy twi or who dont want to know GOD. never again will people weather leaders or followers be allowed to cause trouble,they will be thrown OUT!!! all i can say is this is not the same ministry i came to 7 years ago, it has really grown into wonderful ministry with loving,caring,how can i help you people, and without all that ego stuff!!! i along with a lot of you was wrongly kicked out back in the late 90's under that jerk lcm's super clean household quest. i hope this helps you,GOD bless you p.s i just want to make something VERY clear . i am NOT here to spy on anyone,keep tabs on this site or anyone, nor am i an operitive for twi. i am here to look for old believer friends and help anyone that i can,there are only 2 other believers that i told about this site and they are friends in tx and az and they might even check it out.
Edited by shiftthisLink to comment
Share on other sites
Linda Z
Hi shiftthis:
You said:
I must disagree. Things might be better in your local corner of the twi world, but believe me, all the bad leadership has not been weeded out. You see, I knew the current president of the organization when I was on HQ staff. She, according to her own depositions during the Martindale trial, had full knowledge of his sexual shenanigans, yet did nothing. She allegedly helped line him up with some of the women he took advantage of. Hardly the activity of a true Christian leader, wouldn't you agree?
She's still there--not weeded out at all. Not only is she still there, but she's pretty much in charge. If I were you, that alone would be enough to get me to question whether everything is as it seems.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
I could rattle off over a dozen names of "leadership" who decimated whole areas at loy's bidding.. who are still involved. Six of them plowed the "work" here under trying desperately to find what was supposedly wrong with the ministry..
what was wrong? Is it possible that they were following a madman?
loy sifted the corps like wheat.. are you telling me that they fired all of the loy wanabes and brought back the good guys they marked and avoided, and gave the bum's rush?
This is just an honest inquiry here. I'm sure your leadership wouldn't mind answering a few questions.
what about R*Ch#$ad and B*#bara O*ding? They tore into this area like there's no tomorrow.. took advantage of believer's trust, support.. and that wasn't good enough. They were hosts of the meanest, most foul-mouthed loudmouthed sessions (I won't call them twigs or such) with believers here.. they left the area with maybe six "standing" believers out of about fifty or so..
are you telling me they've fired them, put them out of the ministry? Not allowed to come to "twig"? Must be, if they've "weeded out" the scum..
Or what about Ch**s Gr*M&*ic?
he kindly sat with me and my now ex and explained how he'd have to SEPARATE us to get whatever the supposed "truth" we were hiding from him he'd do it.. looking for what was supposedly not causing "the word" to move like it oughter in our area..
this half educated (way corps) bufffoon couldn't figure out that he was following a madman, and trying to sell a madman's unsellable product.
he ran off over fifty percent of the people who really cared around here..
So are you saying that they've FIRED him from his hotshot position, thrown him and his family out of the ministry? Or is he STILL a region coordinator?
What about the current staff and directors at hq? How many subscribed to loy's reign of terror? Have they been FIRED, and are no longer welcome at way functions?
Only thing I can say, I'd look a little closer to see which side of the screen one is really on..
:)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
I wonder if this includes asking the "wrong" kind of questions, or calling those in charge to accountability for their actions.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bramble
All the manipulating leaders we dealt with in the nineties are still IN. I have ahard time believing they are just not still nasty, just muzzled, because if they lose more of their area they will lose their position as a leader.
Kicking people out is not a reassuring thing. Who gets to decide who goes????
Link to comment
Share on other sites
hiway29
I'm thrilled to be offered the opportunity to be screened for acceptability before I can go to church. I wouldn't want to be part of the riff-raff.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.