I agree with "the third trunk leader" that HQ was a "zoo" after the reading of PoP. It was a terrible, hurtful, confusing time for many people, even if they had a way of keeping themselves distanced in their minds, which I tried to do. Friends turned against friends. Family turned against family. Paranoia was rampant. I was there. I remember.
For me, one of the most captivating incidents of the interview was Ralph confronting Craig by the Motorcycle Shed. After Craig tried to justify his adultery by saying vp told him he needed to loosen up in this category to become a leader/lover of God's people – Ralph's simple response was vp was wrong. That's a shocking statement – and a variation on the general theme of the interview – exposing the dark underbelly of TWI.
If I were to pitch it as screenplay to a Hollywood producer, I'd describe the interview as a strange brew of Elmer GantryandThe Wizard of Oz. The part of Ralph would be played by Toto – featured in the climactic scene of pulling the curtain back and exposing the con man and his fantastic machinery of deception and manipulation.
Here's a point I've been pondering since listening to this interview:
Donna Martindale was there to support Craig at the Yak Twig because he was so out of it. Surely she had to have been there when Ralph confronted them all about the adultery, and she had to have been there when Ralph confronted Craig about the 15th Corps girl he kept bugging for sex.
It sure raises my eyebrows considering she is portrayed as a women wh didn't know her husband's activity outside their marriage.
For me, one of the most captivating incidents of the interview was Ralph confronting Craig by the Motorcycle Shed. After Craig tried to justify his adultery by saying vp told him he needed to loosen up in this category to become a leader/lover of God's people – Ralph's simple response was vp was wrong. That's a shocking statement – and a variation on the general theme of the interview – exposing the dark underbelly of TWI.
If I were to pitch it as screenplay to a Hollywood producer, I'd describe the interview as a strange brew of Elmer Gantry and The Wizard of Oz. The part of Ralph would be played by Toto – featured in the climactic scene of pulling the curtain back and exposing the con man and his fantastic machinery of deception and manipulation.
I seem to recall hearing on either a teaching tape, or on a WC promo video about how early on vp broke lcm of his religeous southern baptist upbringing, craig likend it to a ice cube melting on a hot stove when he finally saw things vpee's way. Â
I've wondered if this is when he accepted vp's adultery practices.
I don't know for sure what you believe so please don't take this with any offence.
I take comfort in believing that as it is written the Lord will bring to light the hidden things of darkness. But then I don't think it's too healthy to think about that verse too long without taking a look in the mirror either.
I'm absolutely not jabbing at you with that, I just want to share how it works in me so that I don't get too critical. I hope you understand.
It seems to me that He's going to be far more honest about these things than some think to be spiritual. I don't think the criticism will bother Him though.
Imagine that, I don't think that anyone will have the nads to criticize His honesty to His face. I don't think it's written anywhere that anyone would be that crazy, although sometimes I wonder.
(edited for grammar) (spelling too)
(added in editing)
Come to think of it there is a mention of "gnashing of the teeth" in his presence. I guess that some would even criticize the Lord Jesus Christ himself at his judgement.
Although your post came off a little condescending, your point of waitng till the Lord gives you revelation, word of wisdom, or inspiration?? concerning TWI Adultry doctrine is absurd. Â
I would say almost all if not every single person here on this board either was told of it by someone else
 or read about it. Â
One of the reasons many have posted here thanking Paw and RD about this interview is because he shared things we did not know concerning those involved in such practices in '86-'88.
Go preach your censorship somewhere else.
I do wonder when it all started with Craig, #1 because it became so destructive, #2 he still feels that it's right, #3 He started as a Baptist and new it was wrong, #4 It uncovers the incidewous nature of old Vee Pee to spin his web and elevate his sin to the spiritual doctrine level, corrupting and hurting the body of Christ to no end, still to this day!
My inquiry may not matter to you...fine...but we don't need attempts to supress opinions and iquiries here when they are asked to find out and unravel the real truth.
Are you referring to critisizing Craig and asking him to his face about his views on adultry? Â Someone has already done that and it is posted on this site. Â Your post is a little hard to follow...
Thanks Paw and Ralph. This would appear to serve the purpose of laying a groundwork for anyone wanting to know some of "what happened" in the final year or so of VPW's life and the basics of how Geer came to arriving on the Way's doorstep with the "Passing of the Patriach".
Couple things came to mind listening - one is that not everyone in the Way Corps or Way Staff ever heard of or knew anything about any kind of doctrinally accepted stance on extra-marital sex, aka "adultery". In fact I don't think the vast majority knew about it or ever had it presented to them. When Ralph says he didn't, I believe him, because he and I were in the same Corps together and I certainly never did, nor my wife. People did what they did and sometimes "mistakes" were made but I personally never heard it handled that way. So I could imagine his surprise and resistance to the idea.
Another is that Ralph has covered this period before, the information isn't new at all, and it's definitely not as if he's reinventing the past to somehow make himself appear better than he was or that he did anything he didn't. If memory serves, this is a pretty straightforward rendering of that period, for Ralph.
Lastly, RD IMO does not come across as a savior to the Way ministry, if anything he contributed to the demise of it's formal power structure by putting knowledge and information in the hands of people who otherwise wouldn't have had it. At the time it was messy and difficult, there was a lot of controversy as to how this information was getting out, meetings on the field, how things were being handled, or more correctly mishandled - but Ralph speaks truth about the immense need once things got moving past the initial stages to take stock and take some action on any number of things that were accumulating and being allowed to run rampant without any clear leadership from the Way Nash. "Yak" twig? More like "Hak" twig. I respect the people that were there, but it was near impossible to get any kind of answers - even communications - from the leadership at the Way druing the late 80's.
So this is if not "the other side of the story", then definitely "another side of the story". Anyone who challenges or disagrees is, I would assume, free to pony up with their own, if they have it. Otherwise it stands as stated.
Good audio by the way! was this a face to face, or done on the phone, or...?
Yes, the audio was good. I listened to part of it at home on my lunch hour. I COULDN'T wait for the rest, so I hooked myself up with headphones at my desk. Other people listen to music on their mp3 players at work, so I figure it's OK to do it while I work.
Thanks Paw and Ralph. This would appear to serve the purpose of laying a groundwork for anyone wanting to know some of "what happened" in the final year or so of VPW's life and the basics of how Geer came to arriving on the Way's doorstep with the "Passing of the Patriach".
Couple things came to mind listening - one is that not everyone in the Way Corps or Way Staff ever heard of or knew anything about any kind of doctrinally accepted stance on extra-marital sex, aka "adultery". In fact I don't think the vast majority knew about it or ever had it presented to them. When Ralph says he didn't, I believe him, because he and I were in the same Corps together and I certainly never did, nor my wife. People did what they did and sometimes "mistakes" were made but I personally never heard it handled that way. So I could imagine his surprise and resistance to the idea.
Another is that Ralph has covered this period before, the information isn't new at all, and it's definitely not as if he's reinventing the past to somehow make himself appear better than he was or that he did anything he didn't. If memory serves, this is a pretty straightforward rendering of that period, for Ralph.
Lastly, RD IMO does not come across as a savior to the Way ministry, if anything he contributed to the demise of it's formal power structure by putting knowledge and information in the hands of people who otherwise wouldn't have had it. At the time it was messy and difficult, there was a lot of controversy as to how this information was getting out, meetings on the field, how things were being handled, or more correctly mishandled - but Ralph speaks truth about the immense need once things got moving past the initial stages to take stock and take some action on any number of things that were accumulating and being allowed to run rampant without any clear leadership from the Way Nash. "Yak" twig? More like "Hak" twig. I respect the people that were there, but it was near impossible to get any kind of answers - even communications - from the leadership at the Way druing the late 80's.
So this is if not "the other side of the story", then definitely "another side of the story". Anyone who challenges or disagrees is, I would assume, free to pony up with their own, if they have it. Otherwise it stands as stated.
Good audio by the way! was this a face to face, or done on the phone, or...?
Very well articulated, socks!
First, I'd like thank you for pointing out the following which also applies to my situation. I was in the 2nd Corps:
"...not everyone in the Way Corps or Way Staff ever heard of or knew anything about any kind of doctrinally accepted stance on extra-marital sex, aka "adultery". In fact I don't think the vast majority knew about it or ever had it presented to them. When Ralph says he didn't, I believe him ...People did what they did and sometimes "mistakes" were made but I personally never heard it handled that way. So I could imagine his surprise and resistance to the idea."
Second, I feel that RD's recounting of the events at HQ after the reading of PoP is a very good one. I was there.
Third, take it from me, it is not an easy task to revisit that time at HQ. It is very emotional and draining and takes a toll. It's not something I enjoy doing, that's for sure! I admire his calm, step-by-step account of each part of his story.
It was calmy presented from his perspective, and I appreciate it a lot. It shows me he doesn't have an axe to grind. Obviously he moved on with his life. I'm not sure why some people want to discredit him. Maybe it's because he told the truth about their idol?
This is a very articulate rendering of what happened. It's quite a contrast to the "Galatian's tapes" (I think that's what they were called...not sure now) that LCM spewed forth about 17 or so years ago and is well timed and very appropriate for bringing closure and healing to a lot of folks.
Donna Martindale was there to support Craig at the Yak Twig because he was so out of it. Surely she had to have been there when Ralph confronted them all about the adultery, and she had to have been there when Ralph confronted Craig about the 15th Corps girl he kept bugging for sex.
Ralph also mentioned those few in the YAK twig who were NOT involved in adultery. Donna Martindale's name was not among them. She may have had her own healing ministry thing goin' on.
...It's quite a contrast to the "Galatian's tapes" (I think that's what they were called...not sure now) that LCM spewed forth about 17 or so years ago...
Initially they were called the "Galatians" tapes, but later became known as the "Leaders" tapes, "Leaders I" and "Leaders II". I no longer ahve my notes, but if I remember correctly they consisted largely of Martindale listing what devil spirits that he thought Chris Geer had, and diatribes against people who left, accusing them of stealing abundant sharing and PFAL tapes among other things. I believe that it was at least half of the "Leaders II" tapes where he goes on about the "miserable comforters" of Job and how he thought they related to what took place in the wake of the P.O.P..
Nowhere does he ever discuss specific accusations against him and the other Trustees, not even to rebut them. He never mentions that there were other people that came forward other than Geer.
He made it seem as if there were never anything other than vague warnings about "returning to the centrality of the Word" and no specifics.
Ralph made it clear that there were specifics and what they were and how they were responded to.
Recent events in my life make me think how important it can be to communicate with our elders BEFORE they pass away. Video and/or doctor verification can be incredibly important. Everything can seem clear, but then dramatic changes can be made by those (trusted?) one or two that have control of a last will and testament. There seems to be a whole lawyer based industry in scamming the true heirs ... those in charge of the money are encouraged to see what they can get away with.
Why did vp not confront these guys while he was alive? Why did he leave it to only one man (for the most part) He recorded everything else in his life for posterity ... but this is the unrecorded observations from one man. VP wanted someone he could trust? ... wouldn't video have resolved that problem, if he couldn't deal with the confrontation while he was alive?
Was he of sound mind? Did he really say those things claimed? Was he under "undue influence" by Gear? Why was there no video? That would have been so easy.
In any case ... the TWI response to accusations that seem largely true ... are insane enough ... and it seems the pop claims are largely true ... though the perceived weight of saving da word (as it had not been taught since the first century) maybe pushed good people into some altered state for a few months or years.
It is good to hear a clear report of some of what transpired. Thanks Ralph. (and others that are confirming)
Thanks Ralph for Everything you were doing in the 80's.
Thanks others here who were on the scene to confirm Ralph's report.
For the record
I was not even a twig coordinator when all this went down, and so was pretty much in the dark.
I thank God now I never served as a leader on a Way property. I was spared much.
The local leadership in Dallas and in Texas did a fine job in expressing what was happening, both publicly and privately. Much to their detriment I might add, since their livelihood was dependent on the benevolence of the Trustees. The ax came down and came down hard in 1989.
I can see now that no one I was close to had much of an idea of the corrupt practices taking place.
It seemed that once the problem was recognized, then there was a surge of accusation and complaint.
All of us finally realized that we weren't crazy about certain things and began to speak up about it.
Lots of close relationships were wrecked in the process.
Thanks for always being open and candid Ralph, with genuine godly wisdom.
I recall the Trunk Coordinator having a smoke with the folks in Dallas
before a big meeting in 1984.
Most VIPs would be hidden away in some holy place, but Ralph was right at home with the people.
He then taught out of IThessalonians, and his words concerning Paul's manner of entering in still live in my heart.
You should have been there!!
That day is my fondest memory of Ralph.
How he managed to consistently speak as pleasing God and not men,
Ralph also mentioned those few in the YAK twig who were NOT involved in adultery. Donna Martindale's name was not among them. She may have had her own healing ministry thing goin' on.
I'm waiting for that revealing story to come out. You know it HAS to some day. People in top positions can't hide their dark actions for long. Their revealing usually comes at some time. I wonder if VPW had died later if he would have suffered persecution based on his adulterous actions.
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chockfull
Why do you wonder? Can't you accept the information at face value without questioning his motives? Many people were hurt through the events and practices he addressed. That should be enough in and
penworks
I agree with "the third trunk leader" that HQ was a "zoo" after the reading of PoP. It was a terrible, hurtful, confusing time for many people, even if they had a way of keeping themselves distanced in their minds, which I tried to do. Friends turned against friends. Family turned against family. Paranoia was rampant. I was there. I remember.
penworks
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jeast
Profound to say the least!
My sincerest thanks to both Paw and Ralph.
I wonder what our next 30 years will bring.
My prayer is that this brings us to a better understanding of God's love and mercy.
Respectfully,
Joe
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T-Bone
For me, one of the most captivating incidents of the interview was Ralph confronting Craig by the Motorcycle Shed. After Craig tried to justify his adultery by saying vp told him he needed to loosen up in this category to become a leader/lover of God's people – Ralph's simple response was vp was wrong. That's a shocking statement – and a variation on the general theme of the interview – exposing the dark underbelly of TWI.
If I were to pitch it as screenplay to a Hollywood producer, I'd describe the interview as a strange brew of Elmer Gantry and The Wizard of Oz. The part of Ralph would be played by Toto – featured in the climactic scene of pulling the curtain back and exposing the con man and his fantastic machinery of deception and manipulation.
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Nottawayfer
Here's a point I've been pondering since listening to this interview:
Donna Martindale was there to support Craig at the Yak Twig because he was so out of it. Surely she had to have been there when Ralph confronted them all about the adultery, and she had to have been there when Ralph confronted Craig about the 15th Corps girl he kept bugging for sex.
It sure raises my eyebrows considering she is portrayed as a women wh didn't know her husband's activity outside their marriage.
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JeffSjo
Dear Paw and RD,
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!
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now I see
I seem to recall hearing on either a teaching tape, or on a WC promo video about how early on vp broke lcm of his religeous southern baptist upbringing, craig likend it to a ice cube melting on a hot stove when he finally saw things vpee's way. Â
I've wondered if this is when he accepted vp's adultery practices.
(edited for clarity)
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JeffSjo
Dear but now I see,
I don't know for sure what you believe so please don't take this with any offence.
I take comfort in believing that as it is written the Lord will bring to light the hidden things of darkness. But then I don't think it's too healthy to think about that verse too long without taking a look in the mirror either.
I'm absolutely not jabbing at you with that, I just want to share how it works in me so that I don't get too critical. I hope you understand.
It seems to me that He's going to be far more honest about these things than some think to be spiritual. I don't think the criticism will bother Him though.
Imagine that, I don't think that anyone will have the nads to criticize His honesty to His face. I don't think it's written anywhere that anyone would be that crazy, although sometimes I wonder.
(edited for grammar) (spelling too)
(added in editing)
Come to think of it there is a mention of "gnashing of the teeth" in his presence. I guess that some would even criticize the Lord Jesus Christ himself at his judgement.
God Help us all.
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now I see
Jeffsio,
Although your post came off a little condescending, your point of waitng till the Lord gives you revelation, word of wisdom, or inspiration?? concerning TWI Adultry doctrine is absurd. Â
I would say almost all if not every single person here on this board either was told of it by someone else
 or read about it. Â
One of the reasons many have posted here thanking Paw and RD about this interview is because he shared things we did not know concerning those involved in such practices in '86-'88.
Go preach your censorship somewhere else.
I do wonder when it all started with Craig, #1 because it became so destructive, #2 he still feels that it's right, #3 He started as a Baptist and new it was wrong, #4 It uncovers the incidewous nature of old Vee Pee to spin his web and elevate his sin to the spiritual doctrine level, corrupting and hurting the body of Christ to no end, still to this day!
My inquiry may not matter to you...fine...but we don't need attempts to supress opinions and iquiries here when they are asked to find out and unravel the real truth.
Are you referring to critisizing Craig and asking him to his face about his views on adultry? Â Someone has already done that and it is posted on this site. Â Your post is a little hard to follow...
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excathedra
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
best laugh i had all day ;)
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fellowshipper
Thank you so much Paw and RD.
I never knew what was going on during the fallout.
Thank you once again.
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socks
Thanks Paw and Ralph. This would appear to serve the purpose of laying a groundwork for anyone wanting to know some of "what happened" in the final year or so of VPW's life and the basics of how Geer came to arriving on the Way's doorstep with the "Passing of the Patriach".
Couple things came to mind listening - one is that not everyone in the Way Corps or Way Staff ever heard of or knew anything about any kind of doctrinally accepted stance on extra-marital sex, aka "adultery". In fact I don't think the vast majority knew about it or ever had it presented to them. When Ralph says he didn't, I believe him, because he and I were in the same Corps together and I certainly never did, nor my wife. People did what they did and sometimes "mistakes" were made but I personally never heard it handled that way. So I could imagine his surprise and resistance to the idea.
Another is that Ralph has covered this period before, the information isn't new at all, and it's definitely not as if he's reinventing the past to somehow make himself appear better than he was or that he did anything he didn't. If memory serves, this is a pretty straightforward rendering of that period, for Ralph.
Lastly, RD IMO does not come across as a savior to the Way ministry, if anything he contributed to the demise of it's formal power structure by putting knowledge and information in the hands of people who otherwise wouldn't have had it. At the time it was messy and difficult, there was a lot of controversy as to how this information was getting out, meetings on the field, how things were being handled, or more correctly mishandled - but Ralph speaks truth about the immense need once things got moving past the initial stages to take stock and take some action on any number of things that were accumulating and being allowed to run rampant without any clear leadership from the Way Nash. "Yak" twig? More like "Hak" twig. I respect the people that were there, but it was near impossible to get any kind of answers - even communications - from the leadership at the Way druing the late 80's.
So this is if not "the other side of the story", then definitely "another side of the story". Anyone who challenges or disagrees is, I would assume, free to pony up with their own, if they have it. Otherwise it stands as stated.
Good audio by the way! was this a face to face, or done on the phone, or...?
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pawtucket
Socks,
It was face to face. The audio was giving me some problems, which is why the volume increases as it goes along.
Maybe I'll ask more than one question the next time.
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socks
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Nottawayfer
Yes, the audio was good. I listened to part of it at home on my lunch hour. I COULDN'T wait for the rest, so I hooked myself up with headphones at my desk. Other people listen to music on their mp3 players at work, so I figure it's OK to do it while I work.
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penworks
Very well articulated, socks!
First, I'd like thank you for pointing out the following which also applies to my situation. I was in the 2nd Corps:
"...not everyone in the Way Corps or Way Staff ever heard of or knew anything about any kind of doctrinally accepted stance on extra-marital sex, aka "adultery". In fact I don't think the vast majority knew about it or ever had it presented to them. When Ralph says he didn't, I believe him ...People did what they did and sometimes "mistakes" were made but I personally never heard it handled that way. So I could imagine his surprise and resistance to the idea."
Second, I feel that RD's recounting of the events at HQ after the reading of PoP is a very good one. I was there.
Third, take it from me, it is not an easy task to revisit that time at HQ. It is very emotional and draining and takes a toll. It's not something I enjoy doing, that's for sure! I admire his calm, step-by-step account of each part of his story.
Peace,
penworks
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Nottawayfer
It was calmy presented from his perspective, and I appreciate it a lot. It shows me he doesn't have an axe to grind. Obviously he moved on with his life. I'm not sure why some people want to discredit him. Maybe it's because he told the truth about their idol?
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Ron G.
Thanks Paw and Ralph.
This is a very articulate rendering of what happened. It's quite a contrast to the "Galatian's tapes" (I think that's what they were called...not sure now) that LCM spewed forth about 17 or so years ago and is well timed and very appropriate for bringing closure and healing to a lot of folks.
Kudos to you both!
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mstar1
Ralph also mentioned those few in the YAK twig who were NOT involved in adultery. Donna Martindale's name was not among them. She may have had her own healing ministry thing goin' on.
ewwww...the thought.... Now I need some of THESE
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tonto
Thanks Paw and thanks Ralph. I'm so glad it's here so anyone can hear if they choose to listen. Thank you and may God continue to bless you both.
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Oakspear
Nowhere does he ever discuss specific accusations against him and the other Trustees, not even to rebut them. He never mentions that there were other people that came forward other than Geer.
He made it seem as if there were never anything other than vague warnings about "returning to the centrality of the Word" and no specifics.
Ralph made it clear that there were specifics and what they were and how they were responded to.
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rhino
Recent events in my life make me think how important it can be to communicate with our elders BEFORE they pass away. Video and/or doctor verification can be incredibly important. Everything can seem clear, but then dramatic changes can be made by those (trusted?) one or two that have control of a last will and testament. There seems to be a whole lawyer based industry in scamming the true heirs ... those in charge of the money are encouraged to see what they can get away with.
Why did vp not confront these guys while he was alive? Why did he leave it to only one man (for the most part) He recorded everything else in his life for posterity ... but this is the unrecorded observations from one man. VP wanted someone he could trust? ... wouldn't video have resolved that problem, if he couldn't deal with the confrontation while he was alive?
Was he of sound mind? Did he really say those things claimed? Was he under "undue influence" by Gear? Why was there no video? That would have been so easy.
In any case ... the TWI response to accusations that seem largely true ... are insane enough ... and it seems the pop claims are largely true ... though the perceived weight of saving da word (as it had not been taught since the first century) maybe pushed good people into some altered state for a few months or years.
It is good to hear a clear report of some of what transpired. Thanks Ralph. (and others that are confirming)
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Estimated Prophet
Yes.
Thanks Ralph for Everything you were doing in the 80's.
Thanks others here who were on the scene to confirm Ralph's report.
For the record
I was not even a twig coordinator when all this went down, and so was pretty much in the dark.
I thank God now I never served as a leader on a Way property. I was spared much.
The local leadership in Dallas and in Texas did a fine job in expressing what was happening, both publicly and privately. Much to their detriment I might add, since their livelihood was dependent on the benevolence of the Trustees. The ax came down and came down hard in 1989.
I can see now that no one I was close to had much of an idea of the corrupt practices taking place.
It seemed that once the problem was recognized, then there was a surge of accusation and complaint.
All of us finally realized that we weren't crazy about certain things and began to speak up about it.
Lots of close relationships were wrecked in the process.
Thanks for always being open and candid Ralph, with genuine godly wisdom.
I recall the Trunk Coordinator having a smoke with the folks in Dallas
before a big meeting in 1984.
Most VIPs would be hidden away in some holy place, but Ralph was right at home with the people.
He then taught out of IThessalonians, and his words concerning Paul's manner of entering in still live in my heart.
You should have been there!!
That day is my fondest memory of Ralph.
How he managed to consistently speak as pleasing God and not men,
and to still be included in the Yak twig,
is most remarkable.
Shalom
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excathedra
i agree. ralph is real, like socks and penworks, and thank god for that - "earlier people" who are genuine
not to say that there aren't more
it's just nice
thanks
sorry veepee could hoodwink so many
and geer pfffftttt
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Nottawayfer
I'm waiting for that revealing story to come out. You know it HAS to some day. People in top positions can't hide their dark actions for long. Their revealing usually comes at some time. I wonder if VPW had died later if he would have suffered persecution based on his adulterous actions.
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