i have not had a full-blown panic attack in a long time, but i did after listening to this radio interview. i'm not sure why really ??? (i'm tempted to listen again, but i'll wait a while). bad nightmares last night, to boot
some reasons (maybe i think):
-- just listening and remembering how crazy and real it was
-- hearing about PSYCHOgeer and his devil spirit accusations (having been very familiar with it before)
-- knowing just how insane it all was and how it affected my life
-- realizing i still have somewhat of a deepseated belief that there should be a "man of god" who knows everything (big blush goes here)
-- realizing ralph was a victim of a cult
-- knowing no "man" could / can save me from cult
-- more thoughts
but that's enough for now
many thanks. happy anniversary greasespot
thank you ralph
thank you paw
you're good people
and i'm sorry for your pain as well
love,ex
ps. i just saw what i wrote
i'm already saved from a cult
but i get by with a little help from my friends :)
I have a lot of feelings about the interview.... listened to part last night, and the rest today. Thank you, Ralph, for sharing your perspective. It's still a journey for me, I guess, because all of our stories are intertwined, and there is and was so much hurt to go around. One of the strongest feelings I came away with initially is pathos for Ralph and his family, personally. I definitely felt your pain, brother, and I'm so glad you're in such an improved situation now, and grateful for you sharing with us.
Along other lines, a re-affirmation of great lessons learned along the way (or I should say post-Way). Pride goeth before a fall. And a real biggie (and should be a no-brainer): Sexual sins are of the profoundest sort. Ironic that they should have gotten it precisely backwards: When the Word speaks of adultery, it almost always means "adultery" -- not as it was explained away by men of reprobate minds. ("spiritual adultery"). Fact is, they were totally blind that their actual, physical adulteries were themselves idolatry -- forsaking God Himself, turning from Him in the basest way. And they too, I have little doubt, receive recompense appropriate for the behavior which follows their hearts' conditions. Yeah, it's one of the Ten (no-longer-binding) Commandments, indeed!
Very interesting perspective, as Ralph remembers it, of the feeling of needing to start all over, of trashing it all, and having to truly build a new foundation upon which something can truly stand. I believe (and I hope) many of us have felt that way. I surely have. But in my case, a large part of it was in recognition of my own failings, and how my beliefs/doctrine did not line up with realities.
Lots more. Ralph, I do hope you do a follow up; and thanks, Paw, for giving him the mike.
thanks for emailing me the interview with Ralph. I recently started recieving emails from this site after not being active for a few years. The reality is that any of these leaders like the interviewee who helped build a solid ministry in the 70's and did not sense the issues discussed in this interview prior to the 80's were simply blind or putting their heads in the sand. Having spent much of the 70's at the Way it was clear to me and many others who said adios and thanks but no thanks to the ministry as it was obvious that there were huge kinks in Dr Wierwilles teachings which he never really hide regarding the issues discussed in the interview.
These ministry leaders who hung on into the 80's are responsible for all the good people who they brought in at those times including many on this site a big debt of "I'm sorry" for knowningly dragging these folks into a very dark journey.
well, Arizona, it's good that you saw things clearly long before others did, and left with your "thanks but no thanks."
I'm not sure if I understand you, but you seem to be trying to lay some blame that seems to me to be misplaced.
Ultimately, waking up from a nightmare is better sooner than later, and kudos, perhaps, to those who smell the coffee earlier. After your first post since your absence, I hope I can come to know you better in subsequent posts.
I think Ralph cut to the heart of the matter in the way he confronted leaders. TWI excelled in hypocrisy – and used the name of Jesus Christ like a veneer over their agenda. Makes me think of what Jesus said in Luke 6:46 Why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not do what I say. What Ralph did was call them on that very issue [not doing what the Lord says to do]. They wanted to cover up the adultery, lies, abuse of power, etc, - and Ralph was basically saying that behavior was not kosher with Jesus Christ...TWI was always weak on dealing with sin - and another sweet sermon on Jesus was not the quick fix for the problems of TWI. Just look at how much Jesus confronted hypocrisy in the gospels.
I think Ralph cut to the heart of the matter in the way he confronted leaders.
Right ... I gotta respect that Ralph took the adultery paper to Walter and wanted action. When he talked to Geer and wrote the letter, he said... what are you going to do about it? He talked to lcm to the point lcm told him to back off.
In my screen version (with some poetic license) when they confine Ralph and family, the angel of the lord appears and smites the oppressors, and Ralph drives home in the motor coach, with that and some of the gold as his severance pay.
Then after all the smitten bodies are cleaned up, the whole place is returned to corn fields, and the money given to some real charity, or returned to the ABS'ers.
But I'd say Ralph was the only one that seemed to insist on action and the only one willing to confront the problems. Like about adultery ... he said we have to let people know it is wrong and we don't practice it.
Other just walked away, which is more what I did. My leaders left already, and I didn't bother trying to convert those that remained. I just told "my people". But no one else seemed to care.
Pretty easy to be an arm chair quarterback a couple of decades after the fact, estimated prophet...sheeshe....
Seems to me that Mr. D was one of a tiny few with head and heart uncontaminated by vp`s doctrine to number one RECOGNIZE the hypocracy and harm being caused to people, but also the COURAGE to stand up and take action.
When the people confronted wouldn`t turn from the evil...he spent the next couple years of his life shouting from the roof tops to anyone who would listen.
Geeze, if you didn`t recognise Jesus Christ working in the heart and behind the actions of this man to lead people out of harms way throughout this entire narrative.....I guess that you just weren`t looking, pal.
i remember that time in '87 too, and how i was trying to tell everyone to contact you Guys that were putting information together about twi and it's malignancy - you would think at least the adultery stuff would grab some attention, but NOOOOO - i was possessed!
LOL ... but nobody in my area believed this STUFF really meant anything or had real value (crazy freaks, lol),
you know...
they wanted to stay in twi and remain comfortable and locked in - controlled - or at least remain in the muck.
it wasn't fun anymore - that's for sure.
thanks for the trip down memory lane, Ralph and Paw.
life is something - hope you are having a great time!
I think Ralph cut to the heart of the matter in the way he confronted leaders. TWI excelled in hypocrisy – and used the name of Jesus Christ like a veneer over their agenda. Makes me think of what Jesus said in Luke 6:46 Why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not do what I say. What Ralph did was call them on that very issue [not doing what the Lord says to do]. They wanted to cover up the adultery, lies, abuse of power, etc, - and Ralph was basically saying that behavior was not kosher with Jesus Christ...TWI was always weak on dealing with sin - and another sweet sermon on Jesus was not the quick fix for the problems of TWI. Just look at how much Jesus confronted hypocrisy in the gospels.
Bullsh**. The Jesus I know also had his hands quite full with hypocrisy and betrayal within his own circle of friends. That Judas fella --- boy, what a wonderful guy he certainly must have been. But somehow we are to believe Ralph D. isn't like any of "these guys" --- especially with his "naming names" and finger pointing and all that here now -- so he certainly must have the correct and real answers to everything that went wrong in TWI. (Funny --- he certainly isn't the first and the only ex-TWI leader we've come across who thinks that way of themselves!)
Excuse me, but I've been around the block quite a few times already not to realize what is happening. I know full well when someone is playing politics and using underhanded machinations to make themselves appear and come off to others as "the savior" of the day. (You can save it for yourself, Bxzx. - where x=o. )
Bullsh**. The Jesus I know also had his hands quite full with hypocrisy and betrayal within his own circle of friends. That Judas fella --- boy, what a wonderful guy he certainly must have been. But somehow we are to believe Ralph D. isn't like any of "these guys" --- especially with his "naming names" and finger pointing and all that here now -- so he certainly must have the correct and real answers to everything that went wrong in TWI. (Funny --- he certainly isn't the first and the only ex-TWI leader we've come across who thinks that way of themselves!)
Excuse me, but I've been around the block quite a few times already not to realize what is happening. I know full well when someone is playing politics and using underhanded machinations to make themselves appear and come off to others as "the savior" of the day. (You can save it for yourself, Bxzx. - where x=o. )
Either you listened to a different podcast than I did or I missed the part where he tried to come off as "the savior" of the day.
Sweeping this stuff under the carpet is not going to change history no matter how much you might want to see that happen.
so he certainly must have the correct and real answers to everything that went wrong in TWI. (Funny --- he certainly isn't the first and the only ex-TWI leader we've come across who thinks that way of themselves!)
Excuse me, but I've been around the block quite a few times already not to realize what is happening. I know full well when someone is playing politics and using underhanded machinations to make themselves appear and come off to others as "the savior" of the day.
He didn't say he was the only one ... and he was not the savior ... who was saved? He confronted some people, but TWI was not "saved". They continued with biz as usual. The bad guys kept everything, Ralph went out and started over. He didn't even try to glom on to the many that left .. unless he is starting a new ministry I haven't heard of.
What part are you saying was incorrect Hey? Was Ralph not part of the Yak twig? Did he not write those letters? Were people not told to not read the adultery paper?
Just try to be a little more specific on what you think Ralph said that was a lie. Or describe a little better these "underhanded machinations" please.
Pretty easy to be an arm chair quarterback a couple of decades after the fact, estimated prophet...sheeshe....
Seems to me that Mr. D was one of a tiny few with head and heart uncontaminated by vp`s doctrine to number one RECOGNIZE the hypocracy and harm being caused to people, but also the COURAGE to stand up and take action.
When the people confronted wouldn`t turn from the evil...he spent the next couple years of his life shouting from the roof tops to anyone who would listen.
Geeze, if you didn`t recognise Jesus Christ working in the heart and behind the actions of this man to lead people out of harms way throughout this entire narrative.....I guess that you just weren`t looking, pal.
---Hi rascal, and thanks for your take. Clearly you are an experienced user of this site and I am virtually new so excuse me for not being up on the culture or pecking order.----am I your pal as you quote? ---If so please explain what and where the shouting from the rooftops comes from?? Also the estimated Prophet??--- I guess I am not familar with your jargon but I do appreciate your response and thank you in advance for explaining yourself.
---Hi rascal, and thanks for your take. Clearly you are an experienced user of this site and I am virtually new so excuse me for not being up on the culture or pecking order.----am I your pal as you quote? ---If so please explain what and where the shouting from the rooftops comes from?? Also the estimated Prophet??--- I guess I am not familar with your jargon but I do appreciate your response and thank you in advance for explaining yourself.
well, Arizona, it's good that you saw things clearly long before others did, and left with your "thanks but no thanks."
I'm not sure if I understand you, but you seem to be trying to lay some blame that seems to me to be misplaced.
Ultimately, waking up from a nightmare is better sooner than later, and kudos, perhaps, to those who smell the coffee earlier. After your first post since your absence, I hope I can come to know you better in subsequent posts.
Thanks another Dan. I never considered it a dream or nightmare that I awoke from but that is a good way of saying it.
I also look forward to comming to know you------regards
I'm sorry to see the derailing of whether JC was mentioned or not. I hear a story of a man who wanted to do what was godly.
I listened to this today, and my head is spinning. I wish I was able to hear this 21 years ago, but I'm not sure it would have changed anything for me. Only God knows. I remember hearing about Ralph and John's letter, but I was told not to read it or I would be possessed like they are. I am baffled that I believed that. I'm sorry I thought they were possessed back then.
I remember going to the advanced class that year and hearing people whisper "Ralph D left the ministry." We knew it meant something. If only I knew the half of it. I never heard Passing of the Patriarch until I came to GSC. I didn't leave TWI until December 2002. I am convinced Craig made TWI even a bigger cult than VPW did. I known a lot of people who would benefit from hearing this. It really tied up a lot of loose ends for me.
Obviously Ralph is a man of honor, and he did what he could to make things right without putting his family in harm's way. God speed to him and his family. Thank you for sharing your story.
and our thanks as well for your continuing honisty. but most of all thanks for hanging in there and letting a lot of inisonet people come up to speed with the reality of the situation and the efect it was having on there lives. we were working nine believers in the city (san Francisco) developing a live work space concept , when the dang hit the fan and to make a very long story short your conversations with Phil Sebastion and your ministering to our needs saved a lot of lives, through him, hope you never think for a minuite you let anybody down. specificaly you kept three "believers" who hadent a clue what was going on, from being prosicuted for murder by the Alimaida DA because of the ministry. You got a lot of people out safe the bigest examle of guts and heart I ever seen
Hang and Rattel old budy will smoke it the kitchen of the BRC during corps night with you anytime
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chockfull
Why do you wonder? Can't you accept the information at face value without questioning his motives? Many people were hurt through the events and practices he addressed. That should be enough in and
excathedra
(personal)
i have not had a full-blown panic attack in a long time, but i did after listening to this radio interview. i'm not sure why really ??? (i'm tempted to listen again, but i'll wait a while). bad nightmares last night, to boot
some reasons (maybe i think):
-- just listening and remembering how crazy and real it was
-- hearing about PSYCHOgeer and his devil spirit accusations (having been very familiar with it before)
-- knowing just how insane it all was and how it affected my life
-- realizing i still have somewhat of a deepseated belief that there should be a "man of god" who knows everything (big blush goes here)
-- realizing ralph was a victim of a cult
-- knowing no "man" could / can save me from cult
-- more thoughts
but that's enough for now
many thanks. happy anniversary greasespot
thank you ralph
thank you paw
you're good people
and i'm sorry for your pain as well
love,ex
ps. i just saw what i wrote
i'm already saved from a cult
but i get by with a little help from my friends :)
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wing
Paw & third trunk coordinator:
Excellent presentation on a very difficult topic. Thank you for all of your efforts.
(Very cool that your family stayed so close in all that mess.)
peace to you and yours,
wing
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anotherDan
I have a lot of feelings about the interview.... listened to part last night, and the rest today. Thank you, Ralph, for sharing your perspective. It's still a journey for me, I guess, because all of our stories are intertwined, and there is and was so much hurt to go around. One of the strongest feelings I came away with initially is pathos for Ralph and his family, personally. I definitely felt your pain, brother, and I'm so glad you're in such an improved situation now, and grateful for you sharing with us.
Along other lines, a re-affirmation of great lessons learned along the way (or I should say post-Way). Pride goeth before a fall. And a real biggie (and should be a no-brainer): Sexual sins are of the profoundest sort. Ironic that they should have gotten it precisely backwards: When the Word speaks of adultery, it almost always means "adultery" -- not as it was explained away by men of reprobate minds. ("spiritual adultery"). Fact is, they were totally blind that their actual, physical adulteries were themselves idolatry -- forsaking God Himself, turning from Him in the basest way. And they too, I have little doubt, receive recompense appropriate for the behavior which follows their hearts' conditions. Yeah, it's one of the Ten (no-longer-binding) Commandments, indeed!
Very interesting perspective, as Ralph remembers it, of the feeling of needing to start all over, of trashing it all, and having to truly build a new foundation upon which something can truly stand. I believe (and I hope) many of us have felt that way. I surely have. But in my case, a large part of it was in recognition of my own failings, and how my beliefs/doctrine did not line up with realities.
Lots more. Ralph, I do hope you do a follow up; and thanks, Paw, for giving him the mike.
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arizona
thanks for emailing me the interview with Ralph. I recently started recieving emails from this site after not being active for a few years. The reality is that any of these leaders like the interviewee who helped build a solid ministry in the 70's and did not sense the issues discussed in this interview prior to the 80's were simply blind or putting their heads in the sand. Having spent much of the 70's at the Way it was clear to me and many others who said adios and thanks but no thanks to the ministry as it was obvious that there were huge kinks in Dr Wierwilles teachings which he never really hide regarding the issues discussed in the interview.
These ministry leaders who hung on into the 80's are responsible for all the good people who they brought in at those times including many on this site a big debt of "I'm sorry" for knowningly dragging these folks into a very dark journey.
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T-Bone
You are one of the good guys - both then and now!
I appreciate the time and effort you took to expose the real game plan of those bozos.
A gazillion thoughts and emotions are coursing through my head right now.
I’m so glad we’ve left that insanity!
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anotherDan
well, Arizona, it's good that you saw things clearly long before others did, and left with your "thanks but no thanks."
I'm not sure if I understand you, but you seem to be trying to lay some blame that seems to me to be misplaced.
Ultimately, waking up from a nightmare is better sooner than later, and kudos, perhaps, to those who smell the coffee earlier. After your first post since your absence, I hope I can come to know you better in subsequent posts.
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Estimated Prophet
...Well Well....
Ralph sure named a lot of names.
He seemed to forget one who was present in all the goings on of the inner circle.
One who was in a great position of authority yet sadly ignored.
Many even believed he was absent, never noticing his presence
still the Truth lives and abides Forever.
and failure to believe him
and to obey him
remains man's basic spiritual problem.
So
Do you want to be frustrated?
then look at others.
Do you want to be miserable?
then look at yourself.
but if you want to have Peace
then turn your eyes upon Jesus....
the Sweetest name I know...
...constantly abiding....faithful and true...
and Christ Jesus will lift you up and
into the lap of the Almighty Father
and make you perfect,
established, strengthened, and settled.
He Is Our Hope of Glory
Ralph never mentioned The Lord and Savior
Jesus Christ.
I wonder why
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waysider
Maybe because it was intended to be a historical recounting of events, not a sermon?
At least that would be my guess.
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T-Bone
I think Ralph cut to the heart of the matter in the way he confronted leaders. TWI excelled in hypocrisy – and used the name of Jesus Christ like a veneer over their agenda. Makes me think of what Jesus said in Luke 6:46 Why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not do what I say. What Ralph did was call them on that very issue [not doing what the Lord says to do]. They wanted to cover up the adultery, lies, abuse of power, etc, - and Ralph was basically saying that behavior was not kosher with Jesus Christ...TWI was always weak on dealing with sin - and another sweet sermon on Jesus was not the quick fix for the problems of TWI. Just look at how much Jesus confronted hypocrisy in the gospels.
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rhino
Right ... I gotta respect that Ralph took the adultery paper to Walter and wanted action. When he talked to Geer and wrote the letter, he said... what are you going to do about it? He talked to lcm to the point lcm told him to back off.
In my screen version (with some poetic license) when they confine Ralph and family, the angel of the lord appears and smites the oppressors, and Ralph drives home in the motor coach, with that and some of the gold as his severance pay.
Then after all the smitten bodies are cleaned up, the whole place is returned to corn fields, and the money given to some real charity, or returned to the ABS'ers.
But I'd say Ralph was the only one that seemed to insist on action and the only one willing to confront the problems. Like about adultery ... he said we have to let people know it is wrong and we don't practice it.
Other just walked away, which is more what I did. My leaders left already, and I didn't bother trying to convert those that remained. I just told "my people". But no one else seemed to care.
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rascal
Pretty easy to be an arm chair quarterback a couple of decades after the fact, estimated prophet...sheeshe....
Seems to me that Mr. D was one of a tiny few with head and heart uncontaminated by vp`s doctrine to number one RECOGNIZE the hypocracy and harm being caused to people, but also the COURAGE to stand up and take action.
When the people confronted wouldn`t turn from the evil...he spent the next couple years of his life shouting from the roof tops to anyone who would listen.
Geeze, if you didn`t recognise Jesus Christ working in the heart and behind the actions of this man to lead people out of harms way throughout this entire narrative.....I guess that you just weren`t looking, pal.
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dakotawind
that was great!
i remember that time in '87 too, and how i was trying to tell everyone to contact you Guys that were putting information together about twi and it's malignancy - you would think at least the adultery stuff would grab some attention, but NOOOOO - i was possessed!
LOL ... but nobody in my area believed this STUFF really meant anything or had real value (crazy freaks, lol),
you know...
they wanted to stay in twi and remain comfortable and locked in - controlled - or at least remain in the muck.
it wasn't fun anymore - that's for sure.
thanks for the trip down memory lane, Ralph and Paw.
life is something - hope you are having a great time!
Best Wishes,
GingerTea
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What The Hey
Bullsh**. The Jesus I know also had his hands quite full with hypocrisy and betrayal within his own circle of friends. That Judas fella --- boy, what a wonderful guy he certainly must have been. But somehow we are to believe Ralph D. isn't like any of "these guys" --- especially with his "naming names" and finger pointing and all that here now -- so he certainly must have the correct and real answers to everything that went wrong in TWI. (Funny --- he certainly isn't the first and the only ex-TWI leader we've come across who thinks that way of themselves!)
Excuse me, but I've been around the block quite a few times already not to realize what is happening. I know full well when someone is playing politics and using underhanded machinations to make themselves appear and come off to others as "the savior" of the day. (You can save it for yourself, Bxzx. - where x=o.
)
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waysider
Either you listened to a different podcast than I did or I missed the part where he tried to come off as "the savior" of the day.
Sweeping this stuff under the carpet is not going to change history no matter how much you might want to see that happen.
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rhino
He didn't say he was the only one ... and he was not the savior ... who was saved? He confronted some people, but TWI was not "saved". They continued with biz as usual. The bad guys kept everything, Ralph went out and started over. He didn't even try to glom on to the many that left .. unless he is starting a new ministry I haven't heard of.
What part are you saying was incorrect Hey? Was Ralph not part of the Yak twig? Did he not write those letters? Were people not told to not read the adultery paper?
Just try to be a little more specific on what you think Ralph said that was a lie. Or describe a little better these "underhanded machinations" please.
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arizona
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doojable
I think you've made yourself dizzy. Try going around in the other direction so you can "unwind."
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doojable
Arizona...
Read Here
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arizona
I also look forward to comming to know you------regards
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T-Bone
Ever notice how some people throw a little temper tantrum whenever their idol gets tarnished.
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pawtucket
Here is the 37 page letter that was mentioned in the podcast. click here
And here is John Lynn's letter from 1988. click here
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Estimated Prophet
"Today if you will hear his voice,
harden not your hearts"
I salute Ralph for the integrity of his Stand in 1987.
But I have to wonder why he chooses to bring it all back up now.
Yes.
It is good to be aware of the presence and influence of evil in our midst.
But Why,
now that he wants to speak up,
does he fail to direct our hearts back to The Good Shepherd?
After listening to his diatribe my heart is aching with grief.
Thank God for my Savior Jesus whom I can turn to.
That's where the genuine healing is.
Yes, pal.
I see Christ in Ralph Dubofski.
I am just seeing other things under the surface.
Things trying to stifle the Christ in his heart of hearts.
What is really behind this message?
Are we to believe that everything the Way Ministry taught was wrong?
I think not.
We are very blessed with an incredible knowledge of the Truth.
We are even more blessed to have recognized
and pulled down
those things contrary to the obedience of Christ.
Well if I've learned anything,
it is to not buy everything an intelligent and persuasive man spits out.
Sorry Pal.
and I would love to hear what Ralph has learned about Christ in the past 20 years.
His ability to communicate Christ is sorely missed in the Church.
We still have more battles to fight.
More strongholds to pull down.
Welcome Back Ralph.
I want to hear more from you.
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Nottawayfer
I'm sorry to see the derailing of whether JC was mentioned or not. I hear a story of a man who wanted to do what was godly.
I listened to this today, and my head is spinning. I wish I was able to hear this 21 years ago, but I'm not sure it would have changed anything for me. Only God knows. I remember hearing about Ralph and John's letter, but I was told not to read it or I would be possessed like they are. I am baffled that I believed that. I'm sorry I thought they were possessed back then.
I remember going to the advanced class that year and hearing people whisper "Ralph D left the ministry." We knew it meant something. If only I knew the half of it. I never heard Passing of the Patriarch until I came to GSC. I didn't leave TWI until December 2002. I am convinced Craig made TWI even a bigger cult than VPW did. I known a lot of people who would benefit from hearing this. It really tied up a lot of loose ends for me.
Obviously Ralph is a man of honor, and he did what he could to make things right without putting his family in harm's way. God speed to him and his family. Thank you for sharing your story.
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skypilot
and our thanks as well for your continuing honisty. but most of all thanks for hanging in there and letting a lot of inisonet people come up to speed with the reality of the situation and the efect it was having on there lives. we were working nine believers in the city (san Francisco) developing a live work space concept , when the dang hit the fan and to make a very long story short your conversations with Phil Sebastion and your ministering to our needs saved a lot of lives, through him, hope you never think for a minuite you let anybody down. specificaly you kept three "believers" who hadent a clue what was going on, from being prosicuted for murder by the Alimaida DA because of the ministry. You got a lot of people out safe the bigest examle of guts and heart I ever seen
Hang and Rattel old budy will smoke it the kitchen of the BRC during corps night with you anytime
Happy Trails
John and Lin McClellan
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