Groucho sad to say this is the most half interesting thing Larry King has had on for quite awhile. He really is quite lame and boring. I think Larry "jumped the shark" for me when he had Jessica Hahn on a few years ago. The reason being there was absolutely no reason for her to be there. She had no book out, no new tell all story, it was just an interview with Jessica reliving her hey day with the Jim and Tammy scandal. I was just watching this stupid crap, scratching my head, and thinking...WTF?
OMG. Rick Ross the cult expert is on the morning show now on Fox (i'm at work but I have a tv here) and they are talking about this. They showed a part in the beginning where all these ladies said "Good morning" in unison, the same monotone voice. All hands folded identically in their laps. Rick Ross said these interviews with these ladies are very scripted, and programmed, and carefully orchestrated, and obviously controlled by the men. They have absolutely no individual personalities. It really is scary. I mean it's like Invasion of the Body Snatchers.
OMG. Rick Ross the cult expert is on the morning show now on Fox (i'm at work but I have a tv here) and they are talking about this. They showed a part in the beginning where all these ladies said "Good morning" in unison, the same monotone voice. All hands folded identically in their laps. Rick Ross said these interviews with these ladies are very scripted, and programmed, and carefully orchestrated, and obviously controlled by the men. They have absolutely no individual personalities. It really is scary. I mean it's like Invasion of the Body Snatchers.
They ARE controlled by the men. I live in the same county as the same group in Colorado City, Arizona. These people come to our office. I work for the Assessor. There is another group next to Colorado City called Centennial Park. They are an offshoot from the FLDS. They do polygamy a little better. I'm saying that tongue in cheek. They don't appear to be in the dark ages as much, and they have interraction with others outside their community.
There's a woman who is the superintendent for the Colorado City School district. She from Centennial Park. She stepped up to the position from another in the school district when things went south after the Colorado City folks pulled out of their positions because of investigation. There was suspicion that much of the school district's budget had been poured to Warren Jeffs, their leader, who is now on trial.
Our office lowered some values, and this new school superintendent called because she was furious. Our lowering values meant she had to increase her tax rate and get flack from those outside these two religious groups who were in that school district. She could have kept the tax rate the same, but that would mean teh school district would suffer MORE. A bunch in our office went up there to have a huge meeting with the taxpayers. Now when this lady called me, she was a complete beyotch demanding to know this and that. Once you got her in her group of men, she was quiet as a church mouse. She was not allowed to speak. The men took control over the meeting, and this lady had no say even though she was the school superintendent. The men do control everything in these groups.
notawayfer that's eye opening, and yes I've heard plenty about Colorado City and how controlled it is by the LDS. Interesting how the big mouth shut up when she was around the men. And from what I've seen of "the men" it's laughable. What a bunch of wooses they look like.
The hairdo's and prairie clothes are quite strange. And yes, it looks like Stepford meets little house, LOL
Ironically, it seems like these "men" allowed the women to come out in public to gain sympathy for them, and it seems to have done just the opposite. People seemed absolutely appalled with the way these women are. I say GOOD! They are so sheltered I think they don't quite get how bizarre they appear.
Plus the women are in total denial that anything wrong is going on. I guess in their eyes it isn't wrong.
***carefully the LDS female on this forum raises her head above the parapet to weigh in****
First polygamy is illegal in this country adult participants in this should be punished according to the law.
second child sexual abuse is illegal in this country adults who perpetrate or assist in the perpetration of same should be punished according to the law.
Where I have a problem with this whole situation..................
There are 416 children involved--with I don't know how many mothers. According to the laws of this great country we are accountable for our own actions. Belonging to a polygamous sect DOES NOT automatically mean the you are a) a child sexual predator pr b) are facilitating child predation, no more than belonging to TWI automatically meant you were a sexual predator.
Each woman and her children should be judged on their own merits. If there is abuse the children should be removed, if the is sexual predation the child should be removed, if their is neglect the child should be removed.
HOWEVER, that is not what is happening. What is happening is that they are being judged as a group and that violates every principal of law that I know.
No matter how reprehensible we may find the teaching of the FLDS; church and as a member of the LDS church I can assure you that the repression, unrighteous dominion, abuse along with much of the rest of the doggerel that is preached by FLDS leaders is not only horrifying to the LDS church but in direct opposition to what we as LDS believe; these are still United States citizens and entitled to the protection of law. They may not be held to a higher or different standard that any other family in America if we are to be true to ourselves and the principles on which this country is founded.
And then there is the problem of the "informant" who very possibly never existed. Tonight's news indicates that officialdom is now trying to say a Colorado woman known for making such "phony" calls is being investigated. Texas Rangers are keeping mum. Last night I watched a snippet where officials in desperation were claiming they had the "informant" in isolation. Her attorney couldn't gain access . Turned out the girl was 18 and the officials were trying to get her birth certificate declared invalid so they could claim she was the 16 year old.
Have we as a society become so willing to bow ourselves to government authority, that we are willing to declare that those different than us are not to be accorded the same rights and freedoms as we claim for our own? Because if this is what we believe, if we believe that a compound is Texas is somehow "fair game" to government assault, because of their beliefs, we might as well fold our doors and descend into the tyranny that plagues other nations.
I would have had far more respect for the officials of Texas if they had obtained the necessary warrants, gone in with social workers and carefully , family by family ascertained if abuse was present, removing those children that were, arresting those who were guilty, rather that at gunpoint herding women and children like cattle from their homes. This is the United States, the wealthiest nation on earth--and Texas is one of the wealthiest states. That they approached this heartrending situation in such an ill thought out and callus way grieves me.
...I've heard plenty about Colorado City and how controlled it is by the LDS....
I just want to clarify it isn't LDS who control this group. It's FLDS (the fundamentalists who believe they still believe in the original doctrine from Joseph Smith).
I some good ideas why the stuff happens. My opinions and observations are based on why it has continued to go on in Colorado City. The group in Texas is a little different because they don't have the freedoms of their own town like they do in Arizona. This group has existed for over 100 years. The last time they experienced raids was in the 50s. Raids in the 50s were for the purpose of incarcerating those in plural marriages. I'm sure there have always been teenage girls who have been married off. Today, I don't believe those who want to be involved in polygamist marriage should be considered criminals as long as the marriage is only of consenting adults who have the ability to leave the marriage if they wish to do so.
Today, the issue of teenage girls being married and impregnated are the major issues, and rightfully so. However, the major influence of law enforcement is in their own city by their own people. Sure, the County Sheriff has jurisdiction there, but they didn't even have a lookout station up in that area until a few years ago. As far as I know, there isn't a whole lot of services by the Sheriff up there. That part of Arizona is separated from the rest of the state because of the Grand Canyon. For any county services to get to that area, they have to travel through Las Vegas, and the southwest corner of Utah before they get there. It is 265 miles away. The County Maager (who is a nazi-like retired Navy Captain) screams about satellite offices which are less than an hour away and how he would like to shut them down to get rid of the added expense. I can imagine there will still not be many services available to what we call the Strip Area (the strip above the Grand Canyon).
When our office goes up to Colorado City to do annual canvassing and verifying building permits, we have one man from the group who takes them around to each house. It's all orchestrated because they would NEVER allow us to just come in and do their work like the majority of taxpayers would. We work with them so we can get our job done.
As time has gone by, the County Seat, Kingman, has been filled with the good-ole-boy politicianis s who could give a rat's behind about areas like Colorado City. Colorado City is fine with that. Leave them alone and let them do what they want, and everyone can live the way they want to. All of the local governments have allowed them to be. There hasnt' been any checking of what goes on, and nobody outside has cared about teens because they probably didn't think about it until one woman (Fora Jessup) got herself out and started going to the media to tell her story and has helped several girls and women escape.
Nobody in that environment knows anything different unless they are shown. Most of the people in that group have hardly even been outside the walls of their city. They don't know how life is outside. They just live they way they know. Then when a few who do find out what it's like outside start talking or acting in an unacceptable manner, they are ousted. Excommunication for these people is extremely hard because they've been kicked out of the only life they knew. They have a lot more change in their lives than those of us from our little cult. They are taught the outside world is "wicked". It's far different than fellowshipping with unbelievers when you are involved in TWI. They don't welcome outsiders to their church. They don't witness.
There are girls who left who were on Dr. Phil who didn't even know who the President of the US was. They are taught only enough skills to learn to function in their own life-style. For women, that would be cooking, cleaning, childrearing. For men, it could be something better, but only if it is useful in their group. They don't want TV, but the upper echelon does have cell phones and computers. I'm sure the upper echelon have a different life-style than the average person there.
The children are given very little education. There is a school district up there. It was originally ran by those in Colorado City adn few others outside, like Centennial Park (another polygamist group). The school superintendent was being investigated because there was suspicion that he was funneling tax payer dollars for the school district to Warren Jeffs, their prophet. The school district was taken over by the state, and Colorado City took their all of their kids out to home school them. Most girls never make it through high school because they are married off and impregnated. Most boys don't because they need to do work in the compound. A lot of boys were kicked out because they made too much competition for the older men to acquire more wives. Thus, there is another set of victims called "The Lost Boys".
It's sad and complicated, and I've only told a small amount. But there is a serious problem, and it takes goverment who actually cares to do something. Unfortunately Mohave County has not cared enough to rectify a lot of situations it should have. They really need to have their own county up there for starters. There needs to be a force bigger than the Colorado City police in order to get things changed up there.
I would be the last person to ever defend the kind of lifestyle imposed on these women,. I and ever other LDS not to mention free thinking people at large recognize that when it comes to control of their woman folks the FLDS could give the Taliban lessons. The more women who escape from this life the happier I am.
That said...
This is country that was founded on the principles that the end DOES NOT justify the means. No taxation without representation, no court of the Star Chamber. The Salem witchcraft trials stand out in the history of this country far more than the witchcraft trials of Europe do in European history because of the very core of their justification. Namely, that a person of another religious persuasion or one accused of a different lifestyle ( believe me when I tell you "witchcraft" covered a whole host of offense that we of the modern understanding of the occult would scratch our heads at) was somehow exempt from the normal rights according to the "law abiding" citizen.
Ever wondered about that phrase "law Abiding" citizen? After all if you are Law Abiding what difference does the rights under law mean to you --being law abiding means you will never have to put them to the test. It is the non Law abiding they are meant to protect, translate--non law abiding as difference or eccentric in many cases.
If you are a women with minor children living in one of these enclaves , are you mislead? From my point of view, yes. Are you in danger? From my point of view, probably to some degree. Are your female children in danger? Possibly.
But the fact remains that as long as your children are well fed , cared for, loved and not subject to sexual or other abuse -- you have a right to teach them that God is a blob of green cheese who wants you to wearpurple hair ribbons and make Linzer Torte every Sunday for dessert.
It's called freedom of religion.
Once we declare that all children are abuse victims simply because of the religion they are raised in, we are on a slippery slope we may not be able to return from.
William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!
Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
William Roper: Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
just want to hop in here real quick and say notawayfer thanks for the clarification. not done reading all this yet.
Okay, one thing I'm wondering. How the heck are these kids being cared for anyway? I mean, How can one man take care of 50 children he's sired (well maybe 50 is an exaggeration ) and who knows how many "wives" he has? Are the women working outside jobs? Are the men rich or something? I mean serioiusly, where do they get the money to care for all these kids and wives?
and I agree that freedom of religion should be respected. That is why I am actually happy the Scientologist's were able to buy out CAN, the cult awareness network that I believe was located in the Chicago area. These people (CAN) were all over the Way for their doctrine, for not believing in the trinity, for believing that Jesus died on a Wednesday and rose on a Saturday, the 4 men on the cross with Jesus, etc. Anything outside of their orthodox beliefs they labeled as a cult. That was just wrong. I am no fan of Scientology but it took a group who had a lot of money to keep filing lawsuits and shut them down.
And it still goes on, I know I couldn't go to a normal church or talk to a "normal" christian and tell them I don't believe Jesus is God without being labeled as a heritic. Sigh. It gets tiresome.
How are these women supported-- by your and my welfare tax dollar.
Yeah, these are "celestial marriages" FLDS perform them in their temple and while they are recognized by the FLDS as marriages they are not marriages in the eyes of the laws of this country.
In effect, according to the law, each man involved in this bastardization of Joseph Smiths teachings has a wife and several girlfriends. Because of this, they cannot be charged with Bigamy since they aren't married in the legal sense.
No different than the cheating spouse who has wife and kiddies and girlfriends on the side also with children.
Thus the secondary wives are single mothers and eligible for welfare and many avail themselves of it around the country. How many of the women living in the Texas compound did so I don't know. It is possible that they grew enough food etc that they were pretty self sufficient--but I would be surprised if there were no "welfare dollars" coming in.
Yes, there are a lot on welfare. But several women work jobs. I've seen them in our bulding for New Employee Orientation. I was in NEO with one of them, and she was at least 7 months pregnant. There are job openings for a few positions up there which usually get filled by these people. I don't think there are many county positions which can be filled. There are quite a few other communities fairly close which provide avenues for work such as St. George, Utah (which is a pretty good thriving community). While the working wives are at work, the other wives take care of their children.
There are a lot of business up there, and passers by may stop and eat. Those businesses are on the ouskirts of their townto keep the "wicked" (anyone not in their group), from coming in to the actual community.
I would say that the women in your area are freer to act than the women at the Texas compound. Just as different Twigs/HFCs in TWI were run differently the same is true of FLDS groups.
If these women have outside jobs that means that at least 2-4- hours a week they are exposed to the "real world"--
SO the question is in my mind--after seeing how the other half lives-- what is so abhorrent that they would rather stay where they are.
Clearly they have brains and know how to use them if they can hold jobs or run small businesses.
Again it comes to freedom of choice. Adults should be allowed to stay FLDSS if they want it is only the children forced into sexual liaisons as children or otherwise abused who should be of concern to the government. Although I would like to see the rules on welfare tightened. But that is true across the board as far as I am concerned.
I would say that the women in your area are freer to act than the women at the Texas compound. Just as different Twigs/HFCs in TWI were run differently the same is true of FLDS groups.
If these women have outside jobs that means that at least 2-4- hours a week they are exposed to the "real world"--
SO the question is in my mind--after seeing how the other half lives-- what is so abhorrent that they would rather stay where they are.
Clearly they have brains and know how to use them if they can hold jobs or run small businesses.
Again it comes to freedom of choice. Adults should be allowed to stay FLDSS if they want it is only the children forced into sexual liaisons as children or otherwise abused who should be of concern to the government. Although I would like to see the rules on welfare tightened. But that is true across the board as far as I am concerned.
Well, that's where the brainwashing comes in. I remember truly believing that there was no other ministry than TWI, and that all other religion out there was evil and devilish. I wasn't entrenched in TWI as much as these ladies are. They've been brought up from birth.
The lady from Colorado City who was in my NEO class did not talk to anyone while she was there. She didn't even look at you when she was in the restroom at the same time.
Welfare, I was wondering. Well Geez Louise, that just aint right. No matter how you look at it. One might argue that they have given up the right for the outside world to respect their beliefs and leave them alone if they are going to be doing that. I mean, GEEZE!!!!
And yeah I have heard that polygamy is extremely hard to prosecute because of what you said, that the marriages are "spiritual" and hard to prove in a court of law.
Notawayfer and temple this is extremely interesting. I can't thank you enough for your insights on this. This should be interesting to see how this case turns out, I mean it could drag on for YEARS.
Temple Lady ... It's good the way you are looking at both sides - freedom of religion and protection of the innocent, while at the same time, legitimate enforcement of relevant law. I like the way you think.
One piece of this story that bewilders me is something I read on the CNN website. It said that a lot of kids under the age of six had been transplanted to the YFZ Ranch, after being removed from another similar ranch a few years ago. These children were taken from their own families - by the leaders of the church - and put into families on this new ranch. The new YFZ Ranch was evidently started in an attempt to evade investigations happening in other states, and so they decided to re-locate the "go forth and multiply" thing where there wasn't so much publicity - at least until now. That's why a lot of these little ones don't know who their bio parents are. I think this is very bizarre - that the church would rearrange individual families like furniture, and that the families themselves would allow it.
So, whether or not the "informant" was real, the interventions by the state really do have some merit in my opinion. What do you think?
Also, putting aside constitutional law, I wonder what God thinks of this mess.
I saw on one of the newscasts (don't remember which one) that the authorities are going to do DNA testing to find out who belongs to whom. I don't know if that is accurate but that is what they were reporting.
Temple Lady ... It's good the way you are looking at both sides - freedom of religion and protection of the innocent, while at the same time, legitimate enforcement of relevant law. I like the way you think.
One piece of this story that bewilders me is something I read on the CNN website. It said that a lot of kids under the age of six had been transplanted to the YFZ Ranch, after being removed from another similar ranch a few years ago. These children were taken from their own families - by the leaders of the church - and put into families on this new ranch. The new YFZ Ranch was evidently started in an attempt to evade investigations happening in other states, and so they decided to re-locate the "go forth and multiply" thing where there wasn't so much publicity - at least until now. That's why a lot of these little ones don't know who their bio parents are. I think this is very bizarre - that the church would rearrange individual families like furniture, and that the families themselves would allow it.
So, whether or not the "informant" was real, the interventions by the state really do have some merit in my opinion. What do you think?
Also, putting aside constitutional law, I wonder what God thinks of this mess.
God thinks of this mess exactly what he thinks of every mess we as humans get ourselves into--"I gave the the commandments, I sent my son AND THEY STILL JUST DON"T LISTEN"
Will the intervention find out there was abuse-- I am sure it will. However, It is a slippery slope when the government can commit perjury in order to obtain a warrant to invade citizen's privacy.
If in fact this is what happened, that the "informant" was made out of "whole cloth" by the state of Texas, in order to circumvent the law so a warrant could be obtained: there is corruption from the top of the tree down.
In my book, a corrupt law enforcement operation sanctioned by corrupt officials to weed out corruption has about as much chance of bearing good fruit as a chunk of granite has of bringing forth peaches.
As too moving kids around--it may be, as you say to hide paternity, It may be that parents who were arrested had their children sent to live elsewhere to avoid them being seized by the state.
Lastly in many cultures it is not uncommon for children to be dispersed through out the larger community. Parents who are poor, people who can''t have children etc. bebfit from the practice. While strange to us in this country, South Sea islanders, Indonesians and many other cultures practice this. In most cultures that do practice this, the child knows both the biological and rearing parents and basks in the love of both families. While it is probably more likely that the children at the compound were moved for legal avoidance reasons by leadership, I cannot rule out less sinister reasons
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Shifra
Sounds like a description of the Singing Ladies of the Way.
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Ron G.
Aw Shifra :( I was going to come back in here and say that, but you beat me to it.
HARRUMPH!
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GrouchoMarxJr
Really...Can't Larry King come up with something better for his show?...
...Sounds more like Geraldo's territory.
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RottieGrrrl
Groucho sad to say this is the most half interesting thing Larry King has had on for quite awhile. He really is quite lame and boring. I think Larry "jumped the shark" for me when he had Jessica Hahn on a few years ago. The reason being there was absolutely no reason for her to be there. She had no book out, no new tell all story, it was just an interview with Jessica reliving her hey day with the Jim and Tammy scandal. I was just watching this stupid crap, scratching my head, and thinking...WTF?
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RottieGrrrl
OMG. Rick Ross the cult expert is on the morning show now on Fox (i'm at work but I have a tv here) and they are talking about this. They showed a part in the beginning where all these ladies said "Good morning" in unison, the same monotone voice. All hands folded identically in their laps. Rick Ross said these interviews with these ladies are very scripted, and programmed, and carefully orchestrated, and obviously controlled by the men. They have absolutely no individual personalities. It really is scary. I mean it's like Invasion of the Body Snatchers.
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Nottawayfer
They ARE controlled by the men. I live in the same county as the same group in Colorado City, Arizona. These people come to our office. I work for the Assessor. There is another group next to Colorado City called Centennial Park. They are an offshoot from the FLDS. They do polygamy a little better. I'm saying that tongue in cheek. They don't appear to be in the dark ages as much, and they have interraction with others outside their community.
There's a woman who is the superintendent for the Colorado City School district. She from Centennial Park. She stepped up to the position from another in the school district when things went south after the Colorado City folks pulled out of their positions because of investigation. There was suspicion that much of the school district's budget had been poured to Warren Jeffs, their leader, who is now on trial.
Our office lowered some values, and this new school superintendent called because she was furious. Our lowering values meant she had to increase her tax rate and get flack from those outside these two religious groups who were in that school district. She could have kept the tax rate the same, but that would mean teh school district would suffer MORE. A bunch in our office went up there to have a huge meeting with the taxpayers. Now when this lady called me, she was a complete beyotch demanding to know this and that. Once you got her in her group of men, she was quiet as a church mouse. She was not allowed to speak. The men took control over the meeting, and this lady had no say even though she was the school superintendent. The men do control everything in these groups.
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cheranne
What is up with those ladies HAIRDO? i thought of whoville right away! They all need a make over poor things.
It is like stepford wives but little house on the prairie.
What if we all start wearing our hair like that as a NEW trend.
but,,,,i do feel very sorry for them and the children...it is horrible.
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polar bear
Why is this allowed. That's my question. These men should be hung out to dry and put in jail (VP and LOY should have been locked up too).
These men raped 6 year olds. Sounds like child abuse to me.
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RottieGrrrl
notawayfer that's eye opening, and yes I've heard plenty about Colorado City and how controlled it is by the LDS. Interesting how the big mouth shut up when she was around the men. And from what I've seen of "the men" it's laughable. What a bunch of wooses they look like.
The hairdo's and prairie clothes are quite strange. And yes, it looks like Stepford meets little house, LOL
Ironically, it seems like these "men" allowed the women to come out in public to gain sympathy for them, and it seems to have done just the opposite. People seemed absolutely appalled with the way these women are. I say GOOD! They are so sheltered I think they don't quite get how bizarre they appear.
Plus the women are in total denial that anything wrong is going on. I guess in their eyes it isn't wrong.
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templelady
***carefully the LDS female on this forum raises her head above the parapet to weigh in****
First polygamy is illegal in this country adult participants in this should be punished according to the law.
second child sexual abuse is illegal in this country adults who perpetrate or assist in the perpetration of same should be punished according to the law.
Where I have a problem with this whole situation..................
There are 416 children involved--with I don't know how many mothers. According to the laws of this great country we are accountable for our own actions. Belonging to a polygamous sect DOES NOT automatically mean the you are a) a child sexual predator pr b) are facilitating child predation, no more than belonging to TWI automatically meant you were a sexual predator.
Each woman and her children should be judged on their own merits. If there is abuse the children should be removed, if the is sexual predation the child should be removed, if their is neglect the child should be removed.
HOWEVER, that is not what is happening. What is happening is that they are being judged as a group and that violates every principal of law that I know.
No matter how reprehensible we may find the teaching of the FLDS; church and as a member of the LDS church I can assure you that the repression, unrighteous dominion, abuse along with much of the rest of the doggerel that is preached by FLDS leaders is not only horrifying to the LDS church but in direct opposition to what we as LDS believe; these are still United States citizens and entitled to the protection of law. They may not be held to a higher or different standard that any other family in America if we are to be true to ourselves and the principles on which this country is founded.
And then there is the problem of the "informant" who very possibly never existed. Tonight's news indicates that officialdom is now trying to say a Colorado woman known for making such "phony" calls is being investigated. Texas Rangers are keeping mum. Last night I watched a snippet where officials in desperation were claiming they had the "informant" in isolation. Her attorney couldn't gain access . Turned out the girl was 18 and the officials were trying to get her birth certificate declared invalid so they could claim she was the 16 year old.
Have we as a society become so willing to bow ourselves to government authority, that we are willing to declare that those different than us are not to be accorded the same rights and freedoms as we claim for our own? Because if this is what we believe, if we believe that a compound is Texas is somehow "fair game" to government assault, because of their beliefs, we might as well fold our doors and descend into the tyranny that plagues other nations.
I would have had far more respect for the officials of Texas if they had obtained the necessary warrants, gone in with social workers and carefully , family by family ascertained if abuse was present, removing those children that were, arresting those who were guilty, rather that at gunpoint herding women and children like cattle from their homes. This is the United States, the wealthiest nation on earth--and Texas is one of the wealthiest states. That they approached this heartrending situation in such an ill thought out and callus way grieves me.
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waysider
Hi there, Mo!!
Your posts are always insightful and thought provoking.
I hope your health is continuing to improve.
I know that I strayed off-topic so "we return you now to the regularly scheduled program".
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Nottawayfer
I just want to clarify it isn't LDS who control this group. It's FLDS (the fundamentalists who believe they still believe in the original doctrine from Joseph Smith).
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Nottawayfer
I some good ideas why the stuff happens. My opinions and observations are based on why it has continued to go on in Colorado City. The group in Texas is a little different because they don't have the freedoms of their own town like they do in Arizona. This group has existed for over 100 years. The last time they experienced raids was in the 50s. Raids in the 50s were for the purpose of incarcerating those in plural marriages. I'm sure there have always been teenage girls who have been married off. Today, I don't believe those who want to be involved in polygamist marriage should be considered criminals as long as the marriage is only of consenting adults who have the ability to leave the marriage if they wish to do so.
Today, the issue of teenage girls being married and impregnated are the major issues, and rightfully so. However, the major influence of law enforcement is in their own city by their own people. Sure, the County Sheriff has jurisdiction there, but they didn't even have a lookout station up in that area until a few years ago. As far as I know, there isn't a whole lot of services by the Sheriff up there. That part of Arizona is separated from the rest of the state because of the Grand Canyon. For any county services to get to that area, they have to travel through Las Vegas, and the southwest corner of Utah before they get there. It is 265 miles away. The County Maager (who is a nazi-like retired Navy Captain) screams about satellite offices which are less than an hour away and how he would like to shut them down to get rid of the added expense. I can imagine there will still not be many services available to what we call the Strip Area (the strip above the Grand Canyon).
When our office goes up to Colorado City to do annual canvassing and verifying building permits, we have one man from the group who takes them around to each house. It's all orchestrated because they would NEVER allow us to just come in and do their work like the majority of taxpayers would. We work with them so we can get our job done.
As time has gone by, the County Seat, Kingman, has been filled with the good-ole-boy politicianis s who could give a rat's behind about areas like Colorado City. Colorado City is fine with that. Leave them alone and let them do what they want, and everyone can live the way they want to. All of the local governments have allowed them to be. There hasnt' been any checking of what goes on, and nobody outside has cared about teens because they probably didn't think about it until one woman (Fora Jessup) got herself out and started going to the media to tell her story and has helped several girls and women escape.
Nobody in that environment knows anything different unless they are shown. Most of the people in that group have hardly even been outside the walls of their city. They don't know how life is outside. They just live they way they know. Then when a few who do find out what it's like outside start talking or acting in an unacceptable manner, they are ousted. Excommunication for these people is extremely hard because they've been kicked out of the only life they knew. They have a lot more change in their lives than those of us from our little cult. They are taught the outside world is "wicked". It's far different than fellowshipping with unbelievers when you are involved in TWI. They don't welcome outsiders to their church. They don't witness.
There are girls who left who were on Dr. Phil who didn't even know who the President of the US was. They are taught only enough skills to learn to function in their own life-style. For women, that would be cooking, cleaning, childrearing. For men, it could be something better, but only if it is useful in their group. They don't want TV, but the upper echelon does have cell phones and computers. I'm sure the upper echelon have a different life-style than the average person there.
The children are given very little education. There is a school district up there. It was originally ran by those in Colorado City adn few others outside, like Centennial Park (another polygamist group). The school superintendent was being investigated because there was suspicion that he was funneling tax payer dollars for the school district to Warren Jeffs, their prophet. The school district was taken over by the state, and Colorado City took their all of their kids out to home school them. Most girls never make it through high school because they are married off and impregnated. Most boys don't because they need to do work in the compound. A lot of boys were kicked out because they made too much competition for the older men to acquire more wives. Thus, there is another set of victims called "The Lost Boys".
It's sad and complicated, and I've only told a small amount. But there is a serious problem, and it takes goverment who actually cares to do something. Unfortunately Mohave County has not cared enough to rectify a lot of situations it should have. They really need to have their own county up there for starters. There needs to be a force bigger than the Colorado City police in order to get things changed up there.
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templelady
I would be the last person to ever defend the kind of lifestyle imposed on these women,. I and ever other LDS not to mention free thinking people at large recognize that when it comes to control of their woman folks the FLDS could give the Taliban lessons. The more women who escape from this life the happier I am.
That said...
This is country that was founded on the principles that the end DOES NOT justify the means. No taxation without representation, no court of the Star Chamber. The Salem witchcraft trials stand out in the history of this country far more than the witchcraft trials of Europe do in European history because of the very core of their justification. Namely, that a person of another religious persuasion or one accused of a different lifestyle ( believe me when I tell you "witchcraft" covered a whole host of offense that we of the modern understanding of the occult would scratch our heads at) was somehow exempt from the normal rights according to the "law abiding" citizen.
Ever wondered about that phrase "law Abiding" citizen? After all if you are Law Abiding what difference does the rights under law mean to you --being law abiding means you will never have to put them to the test. It is the non Law abiding they are meant to protect, translate--non law abiding as difference or eccentric in many cases.
If you are a women with minor children living in one of these enclaves , are you mislead? From my point of view, yes. Are you in danger? From my point of view, probably to some degree. Are your female children in danger? Possibly.
But the fact remains that as long as your children are well fed , cared for, loved and not subject to sexual or other abuse -- you have a right to teach them that God is a blob of green cheese who wants you to wearpurple hair ribbons and make Linzer Torte every Sunday for dessert.
It's called freedom of religion.
Once we declare that all children are abuse victims simply because of the religion they are raised in, we are on a slippery slope we may not be able to return from.
=======================================================
Margaret More: Father, that man's bad.
Sir Thomas More: There's no law against that.
William Roper: There is: God's law.
Sir Thomas More: Then God can arrest him.
William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!
Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
William Roper: Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
From " A Man for all Seasons"
Edited by templeladyLink to comment
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RottieGrrrl
just want to hop in here real quick and say notawayfer thanks for the clarification. not done reading all this yet.
Okay, one thing I'm wondering. How the heck are these kids being cared for anyway? I mean, How can one man take care of 50 children he's sired (well maybe 50 is an exaggeration ) and who knows how many "wives" he has? Are the women working outside jobs? Are the men rich or something? I mean serioiusly, where do they get the money to care for all these kids and wives?
and I agree that freedom of religion should be respected. That is why I am actually happy the Scientologist's were able to buy out CAN, the cult awareness network that I believe was located in the Chicago area. These people (CAN) were all over the Way for their doctrine, for not believing in the trinity, for believing that Jesus died on a Wednesday and rose on a Saturday, the 4 men on the cross with Jesus, etc. Anything outside of their orthodox beliefs they labeled as a cult. That was just wrong. I am no fan of Scientology but it took a group who had a lot of money to keep filing lawsuits and shut them down.
And it still goes on, I know I couldn't go to a normal church or talk to a "normal" christian and tell them I don't believe Jesus is God without being labeled as a heritic. Sigh. It gets tiresome.
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templelady
How are these women supported-- by your and my welfare tax dollar.
Yeah, these are "celestial marriages" FLDS perform them in their temple and while they are recognized by the FLDS as marriages they are not marriages in the eyes of the laws of this country.
In effect, according to the law, each man involved in this bastardization of Joseph Smiths teachings has a wife and several girlfriends. Because of this, they cannot be charged with Bigamy since they aren't married in the legal sense.
No different than the cheating spouse who has wife and kiddies and girlfriends on the side also with children.
Thus the secondary wives are single mothers and eligible for welfare and many avail themselves of it around the country. How many of the women living in the Texas compound did so I don't know. It is possible that they grew enough food etc that they were pretty self sufficient--but I would be surprised if there were no "welfare dollars" coming in.
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Nottawayfer
Yes, there are a lot on welfare. But several women work jobs. I've seen them in our bulding for New Employee Orientation. I was in NEO with one of them, and she was at least 7 months pregnant. There are job openings for a few positions up there which usually get filled by these people. I don't think there are many county positions which can be filled. There are quite a few other communities fairly close which provide avenues for work such as St. George, Utah (which is a pretty good thriving community). While the working wives are at work, the other wives take care of their children.
There are a lot of business up there, and passers by may stop and eat. Those businesses are on the ouskirts of their townto keep the "wicked" (anyone not in their group), from coming in to the actual community.
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templelady
I would say that the women in your area are freer to act than the women at the Texas compound. Just as different Twigs/HFCs in TWI were run differently the same is true of FLDS groups.
If these women have outside jobs that means that at least 2-4- hours a week they are exposed to the "real world"--
SO the question is in my mind--after seeing how the other half lives-- what is so abhorrent that they would rather stay where they are.
Clearly they have brains and know how to use them if they can hold jobs or run small businesses.
Again it comes to freedom of choice. Adults should be allowed to stay FLDSS if they want it is only the children forced into sexual liaisons as children or otherwise abused who should be of concern to the government. Although I would like to see the rules on welfare tightened. But that is true across the board as far as I am concerned.
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Nottawayfer
Well, that's where the brainwashing comes in. I remember truly believing that there was no other ministry than TWI, and that all other religion out there was evil and devilish. I wasn't entrenched in TWI as much as these ladies are. They've been brought up from birth.
The lady from Colorado City who was in my NEO class did not talk to anyone while she was there. She didn't even look at you when she was in the restroom at the same time.
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RottieGrrrl
Welfare, I was wondering. Well Geez Louise, that just aint right. No matter how you look at it. One might argue that they have given up the right for the outside world to respect their beliefs and leave them alone if they are going to be doing that. I mean, GEEZE!!!!
And yeah I have heard that polygamy is extremely hard to prosecute because of what you said, that the marriages are "spiritual" and hard to prove in a court of law.
Notawayfer and temple this is extremely interesting. I can't thank you enough for your insights on this. This should be interesting to see how this case turns out, I mean it could drag on for YEARS.
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Shifra
Temple Lady ... It's good the way you are looking at both sides - freedom of religion and protection of the innocent, while at the same time, legitimate enforcement of relevant law. I like the way you think.
One piece of this story that bewilders me is something I read on the CNN website. It said that a lot of kids under the age of six had been transplanted to the YFZ Ranch, after being removed from another similar ranch a few years ago. These children were taken from their own families - by the leaders of the church - and put into families on this new ranch. The new YFZ Ranch was evidently started in an attempt to evade investigations happening in other states, and so they decided to re-locate the "go forth and multiply" thing where there wasn't so much publicity - at least until now. That's why a lot of these little ones don't know who their bio parents are. I think this is very bizarre - that the church would rearrange individual families like furniture, and that the families themselves would allow it.
So, whether or not the "informant" was real, the interventions by the state really do have some merit in my opinion. What do you think?
Also, putting aside constitutional law, I wonder what God thinks of this mess.
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waysider
I saw on one of the newscasts (don't remember which one) that the authorities are going to do DNA testing to find out who belongs to whom. I don't know if that is accurate but that is what they were reporting.
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templelady
God thinks of this mess exactly what he thinks of every mess we as humans get ourselves into--"I gave the the commandments, I sent my son AND THEY STILL JUST DON"T LISTEN"
Will the intervention find out there was abuse-- I am sure it will. However, It is a slippery slope when the government can commit perjury in order to obtain a warrant to invade citizen's privacy.
If in fact this is what happened, that the "informant" was made out of "whole cloth" by the state of Texas, in order to circumvent the law so a warrant could be obtained: there is corruption from the top of the tree down.
In my book, a corrupt law enforcement operation sanctioned by corrupt officials to weed out corruption has about as much chance of bearing good fruit as a chunk of granite has of bringing forth peaches.
As too moving kids around--it may be, as you say to hide paternity, It may be that parents who were arrested had their children sent to live elsewhere to avoid them being seized by the state.
Lastly in many cultures it is not uncommon for children to be dispersed through out the larger community. Parents who are poor, people who can''t have children etc. bebfit from the practice. While strange to us in this country, South Sea islanders, Indonesians and many other cultures practice this. In most cultures that do practice this, the child knows both the biological and rearing parents and basks in the love of both families. While it is probably more likely that the children at the compound were moved for legal avoidance reasons by leadership, I cannot rule out less sinister reasons
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