I'm off to do other things but I will try to post a sum and substance of the chapter later on. for now, the Chapter was on "A Reformation In Studies Of Biblical Texts " at 16 pages I not about to transcribe it .
Thanks WD. I never wanted the whole chapter. I think a good summary and perhaps a few paragraphs leading up to the quote in question would suffice.
Girl your quick , but I'll answer your question anyway
I think that Lamsa's Bible falls under the literal according to usage as a researcher he said himself he reflected into the translation things such as customs and orientalisms.
I'm gonna go ahead and re-state what Oakspear stated.
WJC was a researcher for vp. It was vp's show, his name went on the end product. It is my understanding that nothing got past his approval.
So, it's an easy jump to state that when W^lter was referring to "a researcher" that he was in fact not speaking in generic esoteric terms. He most likely was speaking on behalf of vp's hand-picked research dept.
I'm gonna go ahead and re-state what Oakspear stated.
WJC was a researcher for vp. It was vp's show, his name went on the end product. It is my understanding that nothing got past his approval.
So, it's an easy jump to state that when W^lter was referring to "a researcher" that he was in fact not speaking in generic esoteric terms. He most likely was speaking on behalf of vp's hand-picked research dept.
And that would be the problem you are making a jump based on what you want to see, not what is written.
And that would be wrong. Exactly why ae you feeling the need to jump ,Why can't the work speak for itself? He clearly referances Lightfoot,Stephen's as well as Clement,Polycarp,Ignatius,Justin, Also Vincent Taylor and his book the Text of the New Testament, as well as Elden J. Epp's work from the Journal of Biblical Literature the chapter is about texts and how we arrived at the place where we are today. Researcher is not exclusive to Wierwille or followers of the Way.
And that would be the problem you are making a jump based on what you want to see, not what is written.
And that would be wrong. Exactly why ae you feeling the need to jump ,Why can't the work speak for itself? He clearly referances Lightfoot,Stephen's as well as Clement,Polycarp,Ignatius,Justin, Also Vincent Taylor and his book the Text of the New Testament, as well as Elden J. Epp's work from the Journal of Biblical Literature the chapter is about texts and how we arrived at the place where we are today. Researcher is not exclusive to Wierwille or followers of the Way.
:blink:
Clear? To whom? I don't have that book. I never read that book. I don't know what is written. That's why I asked for the summary and the paragraphs leading up to the statement made by WC.
The jump is easy without this information... I'm guilty of impatience. I have nothing that "I want to see."
Clear? To whom? I don't have that book. I never read that book. I don't know what is written. That's why I asked for the summary and the paragraphs leading up to the statement made by WC.
The jump is easy without this information... I'm guilty of impatience. I have nothing that "I want to see."
Sure you do otherwise you would not assume jumps knowing that you have not read the material. So if one states the teacher gave me an assignment do you make a jump to say that must be about VP cause we all know he was referred to as the teacher. Doubtful.... A teacher is a teacher a researcher is a researcher, none are exclusive to VPW not to difficult.
Sure you do otherwise you would not assume jumps knowing that you have not read the material. So if one states the teacher gave me an assignment do you make a jump to say that must be about VP cause we all know he was referred to as the teacher. Doubtful.... A teacher is a teacher a researcher is a researcher, none are exclusive to VPW not to difficult.
Okay... so now you're the one making a jump. You're assuming you know my motives and my thinking processes. You don't know me. So equate that with not having read the material.
That Sir, (and I AM making a jump using that term) is not even in keeping with your own rules.
I am allowed to think. In the absence of information (that I asked for, BTW) I speculated. (Heck, I even admitted that I got impatient.) The context (remember that concept?) lead to vp because W^lter was the head of his Research Dept.
In the phrase, "the teacher told me to look up "leaps in logic." I would have no such context. I would have to assume that you were speaking of a generic teacher. Now if you said, "The Teacher" and you said it here at GSC - then that would be another thing altogether.
But you wouldn't make that mistake now, would you?
WD, obviously Dooj doesn't have the book in question and never owned one. Dooj, the book was to honor VPW upon his retirement. It was divided into 3 major sections: Research, Teaching, and Fellowship. Walter's contribution was entitled A Reformation in Studies of Biblical Truths. Walter's thesis was that TWI was a 2nd Reformation, implying(but not stating specificly) that Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, Melancthon, Cranmer, Knox, and of later times the Wesley brothers had only a small portion of truth, but Wierwille got it all correct doctrinally by scientific research. Cummins says that textual criticisms tries to work from a secular understanding and forces a different interpretation(talk about the kettle calling the pot black). Actually Walter was a better researcher than VPW, but was into fundamentalism. White Dove is correct that WJC quotes from other commentators, but not always in correct context. Where is Bill O'Reily with the "No Spin Zone"? Guess John Juddes will have to do. Other chapters are Lonell Johnson's Literary Style of Paul; Holy Spirit and Eastern Customs in Matthew 3:11 and 12 by Bo Reahard; Contributions of Aramaic by Bernita Jess; John Crouch-Figures of Speech; Earl Burton-Scope and Structure of 2nd Peter; and Gary Curtis' PFAL in other languages.
Dooj, the book was to honor VPW upon his retirement.
NOW we have some context!
Walter's contribution was entitled A Reformation in Studies of Biblical Truths. Walter's thesis was that TWI was a 2nd Reformation, implying(but not stating specificly) that Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, Melancthon, Cranmer, Knox, and of later times the Wesley brothers had only a small portion of truth, but Wierwille got it all correct doctrinally by scientific research. Cummins says that textual criticisms tries to work from a secular understanding and forces a different interpretation(talk about the kettle calling the pot black). Actually Walter was a better researcher than VPW, but was into fundamentalism. White Dove is correct that WJC quotes from other commentators, but not always in correct context.
So it was still an "Us vs Them" scenario. Because of who this book was revering WJC was indeed speaking for a researcher "a la TWI."
So.. WD - set the record straight with a direct quote (facts - you're fond of them) and put that quote in direct context.
I'll wait. I promise to not get ahead of you with speculation or (Gawd forbid) independent critical thought.
It's probably a notch above your average twi publication because Vic didn't contribute to it...
...IMHO...Walter was absolutely alluding to VPW as the "model" of his stated "researcher"...for crying out loud...the book was dedicated to VPW!
White Dove can split hairs if he wants to...but I think it's obvious who Walter was talking about.
...and it's funny...because I am the opposite of a Wierwille apologist...and I also am dedicated to laying out the truth about an alcoholic woman abuser who stole other people's work and tried to glorify himself. Whenever I read some pasty sentiments that try to vindicate that scoundral, I usually speak up...I think it's a healthy thing for people to know the truth ofwhat kind of man Wierwille was.
Other chapters from section 2: Teaching includes the dancing fairy himself(LCM) on players and coaches for God(AKA Spirit{s} of the Athletes debacle); The family-Foundation of Education=Robert Moynihan/Moneyhands; Pastoral Heart of the Teacher-R@$s Tr@cy; Chastening of the Lord- Malvin George; Christianity in America(very poorly researched) by Ton Jenk*^$0n; Competent Communicator of God's Word(you're right, dear ole Rosie herself ); and JAL on God's Glory. Final section on Fellowship(bwahahee): Bob W on Biblical significance on nunber 40(a la Bullinger); Principles on Church Administration and the Successful Christian-RD; Receive, retain, release/Blossoming of Word-Centered Culture=ESW; Fine Arts in "Christian Culture"- B#+h L0*&^%; God's Love and the healing Arts(half way decent article)-Dr. Frederick W.; 7 Redemptive names of God(Plagerised from Ruben Archer Torrey, Kenyon, and Bullinger)- Vinny the Fiin; and concluding the book David Cr@l#y's Tribute to Lightbearers. These "Festschrifts" are not in themselves unusual. Church Musician Carl Schalk was recently honored by articles compiled for his retirement from Concordia University in River Forest, IL. However in this later case, there were academics who knew Sacred Music and the appreciation of the Lutheran tradition. No comparison, Schalk' contributions to Lutheran Church Music far exceeds any crap Wierwille ever did.
I think even John Lynn wrote something in the book..
so, it's been what.. over two decades, and where are the writers today?
Most of them have passed pretty much into obscurity, W*lter and the Rh*eard's included..
some of them were victims of the momentus and personal prophecy debacle in the church..
the dancing pres was forced to move off to lesser employment..
what happened to Crouch? The supposed expert in figures of speech?
It's like.. these were the best twi had to offer, then, or at any subsequent time.. what happened?
Ham.....yeah, I too had this book but tossed it in the trash some 10 years ago.
When stuff like THIS surfaces.......imo, it shows how far twi has fallen. And, today......with their steady march into idolized-wierwillism, it is befitting to find themselves steeped in legalism.....and further from God.
And, again......I still think that those years, around 1979-1982, twi was on the threshold of emerging "from a cornfield cult" into something far bigger, and far reaching.......WORD IN CULTURE.
Yet.......imo, wierwille held such a tight rein on his 'kingdom-dumb' that any spirit-filled leader was NOT going to squander God's calling in 'wierwille-world.'
And further......imo, many good men and women were EXITING twi doors prior to Ge-er's poop-paper in 1986. Yeah, this opened the floodgates for the first exodus.......but really, many were *trickling* away as twi entered the 1980s. It was inevitable.......with families, careers, goals, etc.
Guess twi never did 'own the monopoly' on spirit-filled men and women....
I agree that the early 80's were certainly TWI's bid to make themselves more than just an obscure group, the touring musical groups Takit and High Country Caravan, the push to win professionals and celebrities, but they never survived Wierwille's death.
I agree that the early 80's were certainly TWI's bid to make themselves more than just an obscure group, the touring musical groups Takit and High Country Caravan, the push to win professionals and celebrities, but they never survived Wierwille's death.
Oakspear......I must admit that I might have a dichotomy perspective of Word in Culture.....as waybrain gasps for its last breaths.
On one hand, I reflect back on that *innocent era* of learning knowledge of "Jesus Christ Our Passover, Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed, walking by faith and the spirit of God, etc. etc".....the altruistic view of serving others...... a time when we spoke and sang of Jesus, The Healer of Blue Galilee.
On the other hand, I see that this Word in Culture is more defined in saying *Wierwille's Word and attempting to sculpter the world around it*....sorta speak. IT NEVER WAS -- the twi ministry I thought it was. And sadly, it seems that wierwille's agendas were more aligned with *marketing a new and unparalleled product*......'creating a new elite race of believers' under the auspices of wierwille doctrine. Whatever.
And today........the wierwille splinter groups 'plod-along' in plenty of flavors and variety.
Waydale and GS have definitely pulled back the curtains for all to see "the wierwille of oz."
Looking back now, it seems that it wasn't so much "The Word in Culture" as it was "TWI's Culture in Us." If WE could be inundated with all things TWI, then would carry vp's culture out to the masses.
VP was no fool... well not in the traditional sense anyway... He knew that he had some really smart, really talented folks two-steppin' to his caravan music. Looking back with lots of 20/20 hindsight, I think he was counting on these men and women to make his mark for him. Of course, once again he was gonna' take credit for something he didn't do himself.
WD, obviously Dooj doesn't have the book in question and never owned one. Dooj, the book was to honor VPW upon his retirement. It was divided into 3 major sections: Research, Teaching, and Fellowship. Walter's contribution was entitled A Reformation in Studies of Biblical Truths. Walter's thesis was that TWI was a 2nd Reformation, implying(but not stating specificly) that Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, Melancthon, Cranmer, Knox, and of later times the Wesley brothers had only a small portion of truth, but Wierwille got it all correct doctrinally by scientific research. Cummins says that textual criticisms tries to work from a secular understanding and forces a different interpretation(talk about the kettle calling the pot black). Actually Walter was a better researcher than VPW, but was into fundamentalism. White Dove is correct that WJC quotes from other commentators, but not always in correct context. Where is Bill O'Reily with the "No Spin Zone"? Guess John Juddes will have to do. Other chapters are Lonell Johnson's Literary Style of Paul; Holy Spirit and Eastern Customs in Matthew 3:11 and 12 by Bo Reahard; Contributions of Aramaic by Bernita Jess; John Crouch-Figures of Speech; Earl Burton-Scope and Structure of 2nd Peter; and Gary Curtis' PFAL in other languages.
Thanks Thomas for the start, first a small correction the book was written for VP's 65th Birthday not his retirement. While as you pointed out the book was compiled to honor VP for his work, the chapters were written concerning specific subjects, as such they are not exclusive to the honoree.
Now Doojable thanks for your patience, as you requested the previous lead in to the quote in question
Truth has only one interpretation, which is self - evident and not subject to critical examination. Truth itself can be ascertained, but not analyzed. Men's words and the variations man has introduced into the Biblical text may be analyzed, but not the truth inherent in the text.
Through studying the Word on the basis of Biblical research principles and a God breathed original ,we can again declare the truth as originally given in the first century. A system of Bible translation which takes only the external evidence (MSS) into consideration without weighing the inherent evidence of the Scriptures fails to produce the best translation. No translator can translate accurately if he fails to understand the subject concerning which a word or words are used. All translators should work from the inside to the outside. All manuscripts have the words or marks of having been in the hands of ecclesiastical men, men who have amended the text to support their stand. A researcher must consider the inherent accuracy of the text and then seek to convey the exact thoughts and meanings of the original in current vernacular. Such a rendering is a literal translation according to usage. *16
*16 A literal translation is a word -for word translation which often makes no sense when read.
A literal translation according to usage reproduces the thoughts and meanings of the original, based on the words in the original in relation to the verse, content, remoter context, and to whom it is addressed. It is not a free translation or paraphrase which merely gives the gist of the original.
From the context it seems perfectly clear that Walter was discussing texts, translations and methods for arriving at the best translation. His use of a researcher clearly had no mention of VPW , nor was it implied any more so that any other researcher that he mentioned was. Clearly he meant any researcher as he stated. He also did not say that VPW literals made no sense he said literals (in General ) often do not ( because of the rough way they translate into English ( See Socks post) He clearly said nothing about VP or his literal translations it is pure fabrication to assume so.
Further it is a stretch to assume that because a book is dedicated to someone, that then every use of a ______ in the book refers to the person to which the book was dedicated. Point in case PFAL was dedicated to Karen Wierwille so does every usage of a believer refer to Karen? Does every usage of a saint refer to her as well? Of course not ,but some how in this book some seem to think it leaps the laws of logic and applies. Speaking of the book The Word Speaks I suppose since some think when Walter says a Researcher it means VPW. Then following that logic when in other chapters John Crouch says a believer it only applies to VP as well, when Craig Martindale says a player /coach then that must be VP only also, Hey when John Lynn says a leader, and a father only VP will qualify, and boy when Bob Moynihan says a son yep you guessed it VP again ,when Rossie said a Christian yep that's only VP too, hey how about Vince Finnegan when he said a Shepard gosh VP again, a light bearer David Craley, you guessed it VPW, and when Elena Whiteside said a doer, a teacher, a writer, a tennis player, a businessman I suppose she meant VPW as well. Gosh but no, some how out of all these logical understandings Walter somehow leaps out of the book and his words only apply to VPW.
Oh speaking of Walter he also said a notedscholar I guess that meant VPW as well.......
Oh wait I forgot Walter was head of the Research Dept. so that makes it different. Gee wasn't John Lynn a Corps Coordinator, and Craig wasn't he as well and the rest of them Region Leaders ,Limb Leaders Trunk Leaders and so forth, guess if Walter by reason of his position changes his words to only apply to VP then I suppose the rest would follow suit as well.
I think it's abundantly clear that this stretch of logic is flawed and agenda driven. It clearly is not consistent with the rest of the book, and wanting in proof.
Wierwille's dedication of the PFAL book to Karen and "The Living Word Speaks" honoring Wierwille are not the same thing, IMHO. The book was plainly honoring Wierwille in his supposed role in research, teaching and fellowship, the PFAL book had nothing to do with Karen, and was dedicated to her as so many other books are: in recognition of a person who encouraged, inspired or otherwise was important to the author, but not necessarily in the category about which the book was written. No one is claiming that everything in "The Living Word Speaks" is talking exclusively about Wierwille, but I would say that the major categories of researcher, teacher, "Player-Coach for God", leader, etc are talking about both the abstract or ideal quality of these things, but also Wierwille as the example par excellance in each category. How could they not be? How could the ideal of a researcher not be also referring to Wierwille when the TWI company line was that no one made the Word "fit" like he did since the First Century? Suggesting that broad descriptions like father, boy and son could only apply to Wierwille if the logic of "Wierwille is being referred to when researchers are mentioned" is followed is facetious at best.
You make some good points: it's not talking just about Wierwille, Juedes does misquote Cummins, but flinging strawmen in the road of discourse along with buckets of sarcasm does nothing but insult those who disagree with you and doesn't make your point
I do remember hearing about this book prior to it's release. I remember WJC referring to it by some German name that I don't remember. According to my limited recollection, this type of tribute is common in academic circles. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)
something about the thirteen step downward in the "christian church".. culminating in "from such turn away.."
I wonder who was the REAL subject, there..
interesting that one contribution there was.. appropriate.
:)
You mean the one where he said quote:
The underlying foundation for this entire study comes from the masterful teachings to the Way Corps by Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille regarding the two epistles to Timothy. These teachings were presented from September ,1973 through August 1974. This series of teachings is the finest exposition of God's heart concerning church leadership and administration available today. Dr. Wierwille's in depth understanding of these epistles is in large measure responsible for his tremendous leadership and development of The Way International. I am truly privileged and grateful to have been a part of the group of Way Corps volunteers who heard those teachings live from the heart of the master teacher. The impact upon my life continues every day as I strive to accomplish the life-style of leadership outlined in that scripture. I am eternally grateful to the heavenly Father for the knowledge of God's Word which Dr. Wierwille imparted to all of us there.
Or did you mean the part where he said Quote:
They will engage in "perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds" They will get together with other former leaders and distort ,turn, and twist things that they used to stand for. These are believers, former leaders, who willfully separate themselves from God's Word and the believers, and then distort the things they stood for to make others suspicious.
Yes! interesting that one contribution there was.. appropriate.
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doojable
Thanks WD. I never wanted the whole chapter. I think a good summary and perhaps a few paragraphs leading up to the quote in question would suffice.
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WhiteDove
Girl your quick , but I'll answer your question anyway
I think that Lamsa's Bible falls under the literal according to usage as a researcher he said himself he reflected into the translation things such as customs and orientalisms.
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doojable
I'm gonna go ahead and re-state what Oakspear stated.
WJC was a researcher for vp. It was vp's show, his name went on the end product. It is my understanding that nothing got past his approval.
So, it's an easy jump to state that when W^lter was referring to "a researcher" that he was in fact not speaking in generic esoteric terms. He most likely was speaking on behalf of vp's hand-picked research dept.
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WhiteDove
And that would be the problem you are making a jump based on what you want to see, not what is written.
And that would be wrong. Exactly why ae you feeling the need to jump ,Why can't the work speak for itself? He clearly referances Lightfoot,Stephen's as well as Clement,Polycarp,Ignatius,Justin, Also Vincent Taylor and his book the Text of the New Testament, as well as Elden J. Epp's work from the Journal of Biblical Literature the chapter is about texts and how we arrived at the place where we are today. Researcher is not exclusive to Wierwille or followers of the Way.
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doojable
:blink:
Clear? To whom? I don't have that book. I never read that book. I don't know what is written. That's why I asked for the summary and the paragraphs leading up to the statement made by WC.
The jump is easy without this information... I'm guilty of impatience. I have nothing that "I want to see."
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WhiteDove
Sure you do otherwise you would not assume jumps knowing that you have not read the material. So if one states the teacher gave me an assignment do you make a jump to say that must be about VP cause we all know he was referred to as the teacher. Doubtful.... A teacher is a teacher a researcher is a researcher, none are exclusive to VPW not to difficult.
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waysider
And a huckster is a huckster.
Non exclusively speaking, of course.
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doojable
Okay... so now you're the one making a jump. You're assuming you know my motives and my thinking processes. You don't know me. So equate that with not having read the material.
That Sir, (and I AM making a jump using that term) is not even in keeping with your own rules.
I am allowed to think. In the absence of information (that I asked for, BTW) I speculated. (Heck, I even admitted that I got impatient.) The context (remember that concept?) lead to vp because W^lter was the head of his Research Dept.
In the phrase, "the teacher told me to look up "leaps in logic." I would have no such context. I would have to assume that you were speaking of a generic teacher. Now if you said, "The Teacher" and you said it here at GSC - then that would be another thing altogether.
But you wouldn't make that mistake now, would you?
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
WD, obviously Dooj doesn't have the book in question and never owned one. Dooj, the book was to honor VPW upon his retirement. It was divided into 3 major sections: Research, Teaching, and Fellowship. Walter's contribution was entitled A Reformation in Studies of Biblical Truths. Walter's thesis was that TWI was a 2nd Reformation, implying(but not stating specificly) that Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, Melancthon, Cranmer, Knox, and of later times the Wesley brothers had only a small portion of truth, but Wierwille got it all correct doctrinally by scientific research. Cummins says that textual criticisms tries to work from a secular understanding and forces a different interpretation(talk about the kettle calling the pot black). Actually Walter was a better researcher than VPW, but was into fundamentalism. White Dove is correct that WJC quotes from other commentators, but not always in correct context. Where is Bill O'Reily with the "No Spin Zone"? Guess John Juddes will have to do. Other chapters are Lonell Johnson's Literary Style of Paul; Holy Spirit and Eastern Customs in Matthew 3:11 and 12 by Bo Reahard; Contributions of Aramaic by Bernita Jess; John Crouch-Figures of Speech; Earl Burton-Scope and Structure of 2nd Peter; and Gary Curtis' PFAL in other languages.
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doojable
NOW we have some context!
So it was still an "Us vs Them" scenario. Because of who this book was revering WJC was indeed speaking for a researcher "a la TWI."
So.. WD - set the record straight with a direct quote (facts - you're fond of them) and put that quote in direct context.
I'll wait. I promise to not get ahead of you with speculation or (Gawd forbid) independent critical thought.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I've read the book, I have the book...
It's probably a notch above your average twi publication because Vic didn't contribute to it...
...IMHO...Walter was absolutely alluding to VPW as the "model" of his stated "researcher"...for crying out loud...the book was dedicated to VPW!
White Dove can split hairs if he wants to...but I think it's obvious who Walter was talking about.
...and it's funny...because I am the opposite of a Wierwille apologist...and I also am dedicated to laying out the truth about an alcoholic woman abuser who stole other people's work and tried to glorify himself. Whenever I read some pasty sentiments that try to vindicate that scoundral, I usually speak up...I think it's a healthy thing for people to know the truth ofwhat kind of man Wierwille was.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Other chapters from section 2: Teaching includes the dancing fairy himself(LCM) on players and coaches for God(AKA Spirit{s} of the Athletes debacle); The family-Foundation of Education=Robert Moynihan/Moneyhands; Pastoral Heart of the Teacher-R@$s Tr@cy; Chastening of the Lord- Malvin George; Christianity in America(very poorly researched) by Ton Jenk*^$0n; Competent Communicator of God's Word(you're right, dear ole Rosie herself
); and JAL on God's Glory. Final section on Fellowship(bwahahee): Bob W on Biblical significance on nunber 40(a la Bullinger); Principles on Church Administration and the Successful Christian-RD; Receive, retain, release/Blossoming of Word-Centered Culture=ESW; Fine Arts in "Christian Culture"- B#+h L0*&^%; God's Love and the healing Arts(half way decent article)-Dr. Frederick W.; 7 Redemptive names of God(Plagerised from Ruben Archer Torrey, Kenyon, and Bullinger)- Vinny the Fiin; and concluding the book David Cr@l#y's Tribute to Lightbearers. These "Festschrifts" are not in themselves unusual. Church Musician Carl Schalk was recently honored by articles compiled for his retirement from Concordia University in River Forest, IL. However in this later case, there were academics who knew Sacred Music and the appreciation of the Lutheran tradition. No comparison, Schalk' contributions to Lutheran Church Music far exceeds any crap Wierwille ever did.
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Ham
I used to have the book.
I think even John Lynn wrote something in the book..
so, it's been what.. over two decades, and where are the writers today?
Most of them have passed pretty much into obscurity, W*lter and the Rh*eard's included..
some of them were victims of the momentus and personal prophecy debacle in the church..
the dancing pres was forced to move off to lesser employment..
what happened to Crouch? The supposed expert in figures of speech?
It's like.. these were the best twi had to offer, then, or at any subsequent time.. what happened?
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skyrider
Ham.....yeah, I too had this book but tossed it in the trash some 10 years ago.
When stuff like THIS surfaces.......imo, it shows how far twi has fallen. And, today......with their steady march into idolized-wierwillism, it is befitting to find themselves steeped in legalism.....and further from God.
And, again......I still think that those years, around 1979-1982, twi was on the threshold of emerging "from a cornfield cult" into something far bigger, and far reaching.......WORD IN CULTURE.
Yet.......imo, wierwille held such a tight rein on his 'kingdom-dumb' that any spirit-filled leader was NOT going to squander God's calling in 'wierwille-world.'
And further......imo, many good men and women were EXITING twi doors prior to Ge-er's poop-paper in 1986. Yeah, this opened the floodgates for the first exodus.......but really, many were *trickling* away as twi entered the 1980s. It was inevitable.......with families, careers, goals, etc.
Guess twi never did 'own the monopoly' on spirit-filled men and women....
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Oakspear
Word in Culture...hmmmm
I agree that the early 80's were certainly TWI's bid to make themselves more than just an obscure group, the touring musical groups Takit and High Country Caravan, the push to win professionals and celebrities, but they never survived Wierwille's death.
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skyrider
Oakspear......I must admit that I might have a dichotomy perspective of Word in Culture.....as waybrain gasps for its last breaths.
On one hand, I reflect back on that *innocent era* of learning knowledge of "Jesus Christ Our Passover, Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed, walking by faith and the spirit of God, etc. etc".....the altruistic view of serving others...... a time when we spoke and sang of Jesus, The Healer of Blue Galilee.
On the other hand, I see that this Word in Culture is more defined in saying *Wierwille's Word and attempting to sculpter the world around it*....sorta speak. IT NEVER WAS -- the twi ministry I thought it was. And sadly, it seems that wierwille's agendas were more aligned with *marketing a new and unparalleled product*......'creating a new elite race of believers' under the auspices of wierwille doctrine. Whatever.
And today........the wierwille splinter groups 'plod-along' in plenty of flavors and variety.
Waydale and GS have definitely pulled back the curtains for all to see "the wierwille of oz."
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doojable
Looking back now, it seems that it wasn't so much "The Word in Culture" as it was "TWI's Culture in Us." If WE could be inundated with all things TWI, then would carry vp's culture out to the masses.
VP was no fool... well not in the traditional sense anyway... He knew that he had some really smart, really talented folks two-steppin' to his caravan music. Looking back with lots of 20/20 hindsight, I think he was counting on these men and women to make his mark for him. Of course, once again he was gonna' take credit for something he didn't do himself.
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WhiteDove
Thanks Thomas for the start, first a small correction the book was written for VP's 65th Birthday not his retirement. While as you pointed out the book was compiled to honor VP for his work, the chapters were written concerning specific subjects, as such they are not exclusive to the honoree.
Now Doojable thanks for your patience, as you requested the previous lead in to the quote in question
Truth has only one interpretation, which is self - evident and not subject to critical examination. Truth itself can be ascertained, but not analyzed. Men's words and the variations man has introduced into the Biblical text may be analyzed, but not the truth inherent in the text.
Through studying the Word on the basis of Biblical research principles and a God breathed original ,we can again declare the truth as originally given in the first century. A system of Bible translation which takes only the external evidence (MSS) into consideration without weighing the inherent evidence of the Scriptures fails to produce the best translation. No translator can translate accurately if he fails to understand the subject concerning which a word or words are used. All translators should work from the inside to the outside. All manuscripts have the words or marks of having been in the hands of ecclesiastical men, men who have amended the text to support their stand. A researcher must consider the inherent accuracy of the text and then seek to convey the exact thoughts and meanings of the original in current vernacular. Such a rendering is a literal translation according to usage. *16
*16 A literal translation is a word -for word translation which often makes no sense when read.
A literal translation according to usage reproduces the thoughts and meanings of the original, based on the words in the original in relation to the verse, content, remoter context, and to whom it is addressed. It is not a free translation or paraphrase which merely gives the gist of the original.
From the context it seems perfectly clear that Walter was discussing texts, translations and methods for arriving at the best translation. His use of a researcher clearly had no mention of VPW , nor was it implied any more so that any other researcher that he mentioned was. Clearly he meant any researcher as he stated. He also did not say that VPW literals made no sense he said literals (in General ) often do not ( because of the rough way they translate into English ( See Socks post) He clearly said nothing about VP or his literal translations it is pure fabrication to assume so.
Further it is a stretch to assume that because a book is dedicated to someone, that then every use of a ______ in the book refers to the person to which the book was dedicated. Point in case PFAL was dedicated to Karen Wierwille so does every usage of a believer refer to Karen? Does every usage of a saint refer to her as well? Of course not ,but some how in this book some seem to think it leaps the laws of logic and applies. Speaking of the book The Word Speaks I suppose since some think when Walter says a Researcher it means VPW. Then following that logic when in other chapters John Crouch says a believer it only applies to VP as well, when Craig Martindale says a player /coach then that must be VP only also, Hey when John Lynn says a leader, and a father only VP will qualify, and boy when Bob Moynihan says a son yep you guessed it VP again ,when Rossie said a Christian yep that's only VP too, hey how about Vince Finnegan when he said a Shepard gosh VP again, a light bearer David Craley, you guessed it VPW, and when Elena Whiteside said a doer, a teacher, a writer, a tennis player, a businessman I suppose she meant VPW as well. Gosh but no, some how out of all these logical understandings Walter somehow leaps out of the book and his words only apply to VPW.
Oh speaking of Walter he also said a noted scholar I guess that meant VPW as well.......
Oh wait I forgot Walter was head of the Research Dept. so that makes it different. Gee wasn't John Lynn a Corps Coordinator, and Craig wasn't he as well and the rest of them Region Leaders ,Limb Leaders Trunk Leaders and so forth, guess if Walter by reason of his position changes his words to only apply to VP then I suppose the rest would follow suit as well.
I think it's abundantly clear that this stretch of logic is flawed and agenda driven. It clearly is not consistent with the rest of the book, and wanting in proof.
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Oakspear
edited to delete double post!
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Oakspear
Wierwille's dedication of the PFAL book to Karen and "The Living Word Speaks" honoring Wierwille are not the same thing, IMHO. The book was plainly honoring Wierwille in his supposed role in research, teaching and fellowship, the PFAL book had nothing to do with Karen, and was dedicated to her as so many other books are: in recognition of a person who encouraged, inspired or otherwise was important to the author, but not necessarily in the category about which the book was written. No one is claiming that everything in "The Living Word Speaks" is talking exclusively about Wierwille, but I would say that the major categories of researcher, teacher, "Player-Coach for God", leader, etc are talking about both the abstract or ideal quality of these things, but also Wierwille as the example par excellance in each category. How could they not be? How could the ideal of a researcher not be also referring to Wierwille when the TWI company line was that no one made the Word "fit" like he did since the First Century? Suggesting that broad descriptions like father, boy and son could only apply to Wierwille if the logic of "Wierwille is being referred to when researchers are mentioned" is followed is facetious at best.
You make some good points: it's not talking just about Wierwille, Juedes does misquote Cummins, but flinging strawmen in the road of discourse along with buckets of sarcasm does nothing but insult those who disagree with you and doesn't make your point
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doojable
I do remember hearing about this book prior to it's release. I remember WJC referring to it by some German name that I don't remember. According to my limited recollection, this type of tribute is common in academic circles. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)
Oakspear made the point better than I could.
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Ham
what about Ra*ph d's contribution in the book?
something about the thirteen step downward in the "christian church".. culminating in "from such turn away.."
I wonder who was the REAL subject, there..
interesting that one contribution there was.. appropriate.
:)
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Ham and Doojable, see posts 60 and 63 from me about questions you are asking.
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WhiteDove
You mean the one where he said quote:
The underlying foundation for this entire study comes from the masterful teachings to the Way Corps by Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille regarding the two epistles to Timothy. These teachings were presented from September ,1973 through August 1974. This series of teachings is the finest exposition of God's heart concerning church leadership and administration available today. Dr. Wierwille's in depth understanding of these epistles is in large measure responsible for his tremendous leadership and development of The Way International. I am truly privileged and grateful to have been a part of the group of Way Corps volunteers who heard those teachings live from the heart of the master teacher. The impact upon my life continues every day as I strive to accomplish the life-style of leadership outlined in that scripture. I am eternally grateful to the heavenly Father for the knowledge of God's Word which Dr. Wierwille imparted to all of us there.
Or did you mean the part where he said Quote:
They will engage in "perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds" They will get together with other former leaders and distort ,turn, and twist things that they used to stand for. These are believers, former leaders, who willfully separate themselves from God's Word and the believers, and then distort the things they stood for to make others suspicious.
Yes! interesting that one contribution there was.. appropriate.
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