I know you are getting hit with a lot of hardline stuff here... I'm sure by now you realize how many of us have experienced the worst of twi and are quick to try to warn others away.
Today's twi has "softened" and seems more easy-going so no, it doesn't surprise me that your gal's innie parents are letting her chat with a guy online, or that they would welcome your visit and even be willing to answer your questions. I don't think they would stop her from attending a church service of your choice. They may even seem casual about you joining twi, but just be watchful. The softened attitude is only on the surface, it really doesn't go very deep. There is always, always, always, always a hook hidden somewhere in their actions, because they simply believe with all their being that they have the right doctrine and others don't. That core belief drives everything else about them.
Don't ever swallow the hook. Stay thoughtful. Stay true to yourself. If you do those things you will know the right decision when it presents itself. It may not be the easy road to take, but it will be the right one for YOU, and that's the best choice you can make.
things have changed alot, just the sheer numbers involved have changed.
the "party" i was invited too had a couple of thousand people I doubt that is gonna happen today.
He never metioned the bible never metioned god never metioned pfal when I was invited. it was a "party'. period at a nice hotel so I went.
alot of young folks when I was in and they recruited young folks because they is who goes out and knows others young folks etc.. time for the class etc.
Im sure it is doen differnet today they do not alot of the rif raf they got back then they do not want anyone who they wont consider available to take the class and be a good believer in the ministry.
when i joined it was back to back pfal for years in NEW YORK constant and I mean constant classes being run. today they may only have a few choice classes run by a few chice people etc.
but 18 sounds about right for the age they like to get people involved not to many questions but you have lots of friends who might take it with you.
geez the memories.
the calss wont hurt you what may hurt you is getting involved because of your feelings for this girl and then finding out what is important to her family in priority it may not be the relationship.
Getting new members for the way is the NUMBER ONE priority for it's members.
Make no mistake about it, you would be a notch on this girl and her mother's belt, should you go and continue to go to twi meetings of any kind.
It's the first step, to get you in the door.
Then the tentacles will start to work on the mind.
Slowly systematically.
One agreement with twi doctrine and they will hold you to it and use it to promote twi doctrine even more requiring COMMITMENT to "those who taught you". Saying there is much more and much more in some 'class'.
They will say you are responsible to act on what you know. Which is to continue with them. Comparing themselves to the way the book of acts is described by them.
I know you are getting hit with a lot of hardline stuff here... I'm sure by now you realize how many of us have experienced the worst of twi and are quick to try to warn others away.
Today's twi has "softened" and seems more easy-going so no, it doesn't surprise me that your gal's innie parents are letting her chat with a guy online, or that they would welcome your visit and even be willing to answer your questions. I don't think they would stop her from attending a church service of your choice. They may even seem casual about you joining twi, but just be watchful. The softened attitude is only on the surface, it really doesn't go very deep. There is always, always, always, always a hook hidden somewhere in their actions, because they simply believe with all their being that they have the right doctrine and others don't. That core belief drives everything else about them.
Don't ever swallow the hook. Stay thoughtful. Stay true to yourself. If you do those things you will know the right decision when it presents itself. It may not be the easy road to take, but it will be the right one for YOU, and that's the best choice you can make.
Her mother knows my religious views and affiliation, and is aware that I disagree with them on a lot of points. Steph has told her because her mother probably asked. And Steph told me her parents will probably just throw the offer out there to accept or reject, it's my choice. That's it. No pressure involved. Even if there is no pressure to join, all claims have a basis in truth and reality, something that actually happened or in what was perceived to be real. So if the experience I have as an outsider isn't quite as extreme as the experiences of you guys when you were in TWI, I'll just remember to balance what I see here with what I see when I get there and what I disagree on with what I agree on, and stay true to what I have discovered as truth.
Her mother knows my religious views and affiliation, and is aware that I disagree with them on a lot of points. Steph has told her because her mother probably asked. And Steph told me her parents will probably just throw the offer out there to accept or reject, it's my choice. That's it. No pressure involved.
... from the mouths of the innocent: she is telling you that her folks know you don't agree with their doctrine and that they will make any affiliation with twi your choice... (if only I had a nickel for every time someone told me something was "my choice") The unspoken consequences of choosing wrongly are what they won't tell you up front.
Even if there is no pressure to join, all claims have a basis in truth and reality, something that actually happened or in what was perceived to be real. So if the experience I have as an outsider isn't quite as extreme as the experiences of you guys when you were in TWI, I'll just remember to balance what I see here with what I see when I get there and what I disagree on with what I agree on, and stay true to what I have discovered as truth.
I'll be fine.
... well, you came here for an experienced point of view, and we have given you one (well, several). Do with it what you will. I believe you will be fine. I hope you won't also be scarred.
David, no need to blush. I was paying you a compliment when I said that didn't sound like your usual reasonable self. That's why I pointed it out, so you could explain what you really meant. I figured it was mis-speak because it was so atypical.
Too bad you couldn't have corrected all docvic's words --- when you were on the Way magazine!
Dunno if the world would be a better place -- but I suspect so! ;)
Do I detect a li'l sarcasm here? Damn, now we know who to blame for everything going to he|| in a handbasket--me! If only I'd been a better editor :lol:
Actually, I did correct his grammar, but questioning/correcting his meaning was left for the research department, not us lowly Way Mag editors.
... from the mouths of the innocent: she is telling you that her folks know you don't agree with their doctrine and that they will make any affiliation with twi your choice... (if only I had a nickel for every time someone told me something was "my choice") The unspoken consequences of choosing wrongly are what they won't tell you up front.
What might these unspoken consequences be...? :blink:
Did you realize the Blue Book only contains the very basics that are taught in "The Class"?
Yeah, you see the other books go into much greater in-depth detail.
'Course you can't really understand those books by themselves, you have to read them in context with "The Class".
You do want to take the class so you will understand them, don't you?
I mean, once you've heard the "Truth", how could you possibly go back to your "old man" ways?
It would be like a dog that returns to its own vomit.
Besides, once you know what "the adversary" has up his sleeve, it would be foolish to go back to the "world" where he can do as he pleases with you. That would be downright dangerous. You'll be much safer if you stay within "the hedge of protection" that the "one true household" provides.
Did you realize the Blue Book only contains the very basics that are taught in "The Class"?
Yeah, you see the other books go into much greater in-depth detail.
'Course you can't really understand those books by themselves, you have to read them in context with "The Class".
You do want to take the class so you will understand them, don't you?
I mean, once you've heard the "Truth", how could you possibly go back to your "old man" ways?
It would be like a dog that returns to its own vomit.
Besides, once you know what "the adversary" has up his sleeve, it would be foolish to go back to the "world" where he can do as he pleases with you. That would be downright dangerous. You'll be much safer if you stay within "the hedge of protection" that the "one true household" provides.
And if I refuse their offer and simply say something like, "I'm sorry. Don't get me wrong, you're very sincere and nice and all, but I don't agree with you." ...?
And if I refuse their offer and simply say something like, "I'm sorry. Don't get me wrong, you're very sincere and nice and all, but I don't agree with you." ...?
It's usually far more subtle than that.
But if you do get that option, it could well be a turning point.
You see, Brushstroke, we didn't just buy this stuff, we sold it, too.
We even had a "class" that taught us techniques to use to sell the PFAL class and the ministry in general.
It was called "Witnessing and Undershepharding".
Here are some brief exerpts:
"The basic reason we witness is to help people into the classes on Power For Abundant Living -------"
( W&U class syllabus, page #2)
"Witnessing is a way of life as ambassadors to the people of the world".
(page #3)
"witnessing is like life- you make it work by "believing"--".
(page #5)
"I suggest you read How To Win Friends And Influence People by Dale Carnegie.
This will help you in this first step."
(page#7)
FOLLOW THROUGH WITH UNDERSHEPHARDING
(page #11)
"The best tool in undershepharding is the PFAL class.(more than once)"
But if you do get that option, it could well be a turning point.
You see, Brushstroke, we didn't just buy this stuff, we sold it, too.
We even had a "class" that taught us techniques to use to sell the PFAL class and the ministry in general.
It was called "Witnessing and Undershepharding".
Here are some brief exerpts:
"The basic reason we witness is to help people into the classes on Power For Abundant Living -------"
( W&U class syllabus, page #2)
"Witnessing is a way of life as ambassadors to the people of the world".
(page #3)
"witnessing is like life- you make it work by "believing"--".
(page #5)
"I suggest you read How To Win Friends And Influence People by Dale Carnegie.
This will help you in this first step."
(page#7)
FOLLOW THROUGH WITH UNDERSHEPHARDING
(page #11)
"The best tool in undershepharding is the PFAL class.(more than once)"
(page 13)
and on and on and on------
How To Win Friends and Influence People? What is this?! I know what the book is, I am asking why they need to resort to tactics like this in order to gain converts. It's sickening to me that TWI can't just say what they believe without resorting to these underhanded tactics of persuasion.
i have 3 teenage boys (one of them your age), and if one of them came to me with this situation, this is what i would say:
look, honey, you're young; you're only 18... you met a girl online (it's probably not the 1st time, and it probably won't be the last)... sure, it's fun to chat and exchange ideas online... but you really don't know someone thru an online relationship!... why get involved in a long distance relationship at such a young age?... relationships are difficult enough, and long distance relationships are even harder...
honey, i think you need to find people to interact with here in town (where you will have real life interactions, and not just via a computer)... i do not think that it is wise to become emotionally attached to someone via a computer screen... why don't you let the Lord lead you (to a girl who shares your more orthodox christian beliefs)... why knowingly get involved with someone that you know has beliefs and ideas that are so far removed from your own?... you will end up constantly butting heads over basic doctrinal issues... you're young, take your time, don't become so emotionally attached or involved with someone over the internet, cultivate relationships here at home, and let the Lord lead and guide you...
How To Win Friends and Influence People? What is this?! I know what the book is, I am asking why they need to resort to tactics like this in order to gain converts. It's sickening to me that TWI can't just say what they believe without resorting to these underhanded tactics of persuasion.
Brushstoke -- I got involved with twi back in 1975. If they had said what they REALLY believe (up front and honestly) to all who were considering the class (pfal) and eventual membership in the outfit --- I doubt that they would've had as many *takers* as they did. What was portrayed to the public view, and what happened behind closed doors were two very different things entirely.
Some here will say that docvic (Victor Wierwille) was corrupt from the very beginning.
Others will say he started out with good intentions, but then got *choked by the thorns* of life.
Regardless --- twi's M.O. hasn't changed, and their end goal is membership -- with your $$$.
In THEIR wallet -- not yours.
I doubt seriously that I could go and visit the farm there at New Knoxville (even if I wanted to),
and be allowed to walk around without intense scrutiny, and severe restictions.
ah hell -- one ex-member went to visit a grave site in the Way Woods there, and was arrested.
May as well lay it out on the line for you. If you aren't in *good standing* with them,
faithfully passing $$$ from your wallet to their bank account, you are no longer *Welcome at the Way*
Which brings me back to the point you brought up, about the book.
No --- they can't just *say what they believe* without
*resorting to underhanded techniques of persuasion* like you said.
The *ministry* is built on a man -- docvic. Jesus isn't in the equation.
Docvic used a LOT of other folk's work -- to promote his own.
He was sincere about it -- but to quote him ----
Sincerity Is NO Guarantee For Truth.
Everything you've been told here by everyone comes from personal experience.
It's a road we all walked at one time, and regretted later in life.
And a lot of us were your age when we started on it.
I didn't realize at first, that this was an online relationship.
What might these unspoken consequences be...? :blink:
As others have said, the "unspoken consequences" can be anything from a subtle pressure to "do the right thing because you know it's God's Word" to being declared "mark and avoid" which means being blacklisted from any and all twi activities and being bad-mouthed to all the folks you thought were your life-long friends, who will in turn no longer speak to you in fear of being black-listed themselves. Because we were taught that turning your back on twi is tantamount to turning your back on God and walking out from under His protection. In your case I would think the consequences for you would be that the parents would put the subtle pressure on their daughter to find another boyfriend, which she would dutifully do as a loving, obedient daughter in the Word.
Why can't they just say up front what they believe and act accordingly? I think they genuinely believe they do and are. When I was taught Carnegie's methods as a tool I was told it was okay to use what whatever works because we are selling people on the eternal TRUTH, not just some man-made product. As I've said in previous posts, the biggest obstacle to genuine dialog with these folks is their deep seated belief that they are RIGHT, and that everyone else is NOT. They think they've studied the Bible more, analyzed it more, lived it more accurately, than any other group. How do you shake that belief out of someone? (if you ever find the answer be sure to let national security know so we can use the technique on the Taliban and others!)
Also you need to realize that VPW built this ministry on a foundation of branching off from mainline Christianity, and of teaching "new truths" (well, truth forgotten by Christians since the first century). If you were to sit through most any twi class (or probably most teachings for that matter) you would be amazed at how often they teach something NOT the way it is written in the King James. They will tell you that a study of the original text or a comparison of the usage of this particular word or topic throughout the Bible reveals that it REALLY means "--------" (their current spin) and that true believers will behave "---------" (their current practice). Now, if those doctrines and practices remained consistant throughout the group and throughout the years, I would probably not have as much of a problem with them. But because VP also taught that God continues to teach those with willing hearts, and that the primary way to show your meekness to God is to show meekness to the leadership, the interpretation and practice of these same verses changes over time. Not only that, but what one leader allows another does not, and what one leader demands, another does not. There is almost NO accountability. So, while the methods and tactics used are universal (incremental steps, bait and hook, subtle coersion, build-up of fear, isolation from outside sources of information and help) -- the actual experiences can vary hugely.
I had been involved in twi for six years, taken many of their classes and even spent a year in their one-year Bible College program when there was a major falling out between the leadership. Everything was a mess. But I was married to another twi person and we were scheduled to start their leadership training. What to do? I went into the training with the attitude that I would watch everything very carefully and reserve judgement, watching for the negatives, the inconsistencies, the problems of which I had been warned. Within six months of being there I was vehemently defending the ministry and its current leadership. Something I now look back on with embarrassment. It is just SO easy to get sucked in without meaning to... that is why we are all warning you so hard to be very, very careful.
Brushstroke/Phil, it is interesting that the title of the "Blue" book is based on the children's hymn Jesus Loves Me(proably not sung in the Greek or Russian Orthodox
church ), this I know for the Bible tells me so. If TWI were really honest it would say"Doctor Wierwille loves me this I know ,for he tells me that is so"
All the women to him belong for they are weak but he 's too strong. Yes, docvic loves me(repeat 2 more times), for all the lies he told. Gawsh, you is my kids. Whoops, the devil spirit named legion tried to posses me. Where's Taps/Ghost Hunters when you need them? To any females who just felt insulted , please for give me, for I know not what I do. My humble apologies. My satire was too painful, just got caugth(where's the dictionary when you need one?) up in the morose humor.
How To Win Friends and Influence People? What is this?! I know what the book is, I am asking why they need to resort to tactics like this in order to gain converts. It's sickening to me that TWI can't just say what they believe without resorting to these underhanded tactics of persuasion.
The CLAIM is that they're concerned with truth over everything else.
The REALITY is the actions of those in NOW and those in BEFORE belie that.
Excuse after excuse comes out as to why it's all right to lie to people.
Asking why any of various twi leaders was kicked out?
You will get non-answers and avoidances of answers,
and someone may completely lie to you. Why?
"That the ministry be not blamed."
Is someone lying to you to get you to take "the class?"
Well, it's for your own good- to get you to take the class.
etc. etc.
If twi wants someone to, they'll lie or do worse.
That's why some people left.
It's also why some people did worse-one man blew his brains out because he couldn't
reconcile his mind with "the president of twi is having sex with my wife" and
"adultery is sinful" without reaching
"the president of twi is practicing sin",
and shot himself instead of leaving or shooting lcm.
=====
The more connection you have with twi or those in twi, the more "leverage" they
have over you. That means nothing-until you do what they don't want you to.
Then all sorts of measures will be taken to get you to conform.
You'll be disapproved of socially, made a pariah, have loved ones be told to avoid you,
and all leaders will do everything they can to get you to conform.
That means they will do everything they can to get you to agree to meet with them privately,
behind doors that can be locked-which will, and then they will verbally abuse you, at conversation
levels, then screaming at you, until you conform. They've done that to married couples, and once
one spouse 'breaks', they will focus on the other.
Think I'm exaggerating? A number of posters here, from different states and different years,
reported that happened to them. You can find the posts here, or they can sing out again.
And if I refuse their offer and simply say something like, "I'm sorry. Don't get me wrong, you're very sincere and nice and all, but I don't agree with you." ...?
Oh, then all interactions with you will be oriented on getting you to conform.
See, first of all, you're supposed to cut all connections with people outside twi, since twi is THE
sole source of all connections. There will be all sorts of justifications, and one event at a time,
they'll want you to choose to spend each event with OTHERS, INSTEAD,
with THEM. Slowly, they'll strangle your connections with others.
Once that happens, they've got you.
They will use any and all connections with you as LEVERAGE, as CLUBS to beat you over the head with.
Please note this is CONSISTENT, and thus PREDICTABLE.
So, maintain all your connections with family, friends, professionals, etc.
Look, even if I'm 100% wrong, there's no loss in staying in touch, and it's good to stay in touch.
If I'm right, you'll save yourself a lot of heartache.
(You'll deprive them of one of their best weapons.)
We consider ourselves to be together...but...not really. It's complicated. I mean, since she and I technically haven't really met yet since we originally started talking online, it's kind of sketchy as to what we should consider ourselves. But if this is all something to get me into TWI...well...I just don't think she would do that.
Interesting.
Considering that "they" (the parents.. and most everyone else involved in the way) have been threatened (ahem, "warned") to stay off the internet.. i.e., no surfing, no playing around on the net.. if you really need something there, get on, then get off- AS SOON AS POSSIBLE- because that it's a possible conduit to possession- I'd have a few questions.
I'm not being accusatory.. consider it food for thought..
What is the young lady even DOING there?
Are the parents aware that she is seeking a connection with someone on the "infested with devils" internet?
If so, do they approve of this? Or not? If not, what would they say?
apparently she is eighteen years old, still living at home.. is it possible.. they are looking for someplace for her to go, ANYWHERE?
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TheHighWay
Brushstroke,
I know you are getting hit with a lot of hardline stuff here... I'm sure by now you realize how many of us have experienced the worst of twi and are quick to try to warn others away.
Today's twi has "softened" and seems more easy-going so no, it doesn't surprise me that your gal's innie parents are letting her chat with a guy online, or that they would welcome your visit and even be willing to answer your questions. I don't think they would stop her from attending a church service of your choice. They may even seem casual about you joining twi, but just be watchful. The softened attitude is only on the surface, it really doesn't go very deep. There is always, always, always, always a hook hidden somewhere in their actions, because they simply believe with all their being that they have the right doctrine and others don't. That core belief drives everything else about them.
Don't ever swallow the hook. Stay thoughtful. Stay true to yourself. If you do those things you will know the right decision when it presents itself. It may not be the easy road to take, but it will be the right one for YOU, and that's the best choice you can make.
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pond
things have changed alot, just the sheer numbers involved have changed.
the "party" i was invited too had a couple of thousand people I doubt that is gonna happen today.
He never metioned the bible never metioned god never metioned pfal when I was invited. it was a "party'. period at a nice hotel so I went.
alot of young folks when I was in and they recruited young folks because they is who goes out and knows others young folks etc.. time for the class etc.
Im sure it is doen differnet today they do not alot of the rif raf they got back then they do not want anyone who they wont consider available to take the class and be a good believer in the ministry.
when i joined it was back to back pfal for years in NEW YORK constant and I mean constant classes being run. today they may only have a few choice classes run by a few chice people etc.
but 18 sounds about right for the age they like to get people involved not to many questions but you have lots of friends who might take it with you.
geez the memories.
the calss wont hurt you what may hurt you is getting involved because of your feelings for this girl and then finding out what is important to her family in priority it may not be the relationship.
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cman
Brushstroke,
Getting new members for the way is the NUMBER ONE priority for it's members.
Make no mistake about it, you would be a notch on this girl and her mother's belt, should you go and continue to go to twi meetings of any kind.
It's the first step, to get you in the door.
Then the tentacles will start to work on the mind.
Slowly systematically.
One agreement with twi doctrine and they will hold you to it and use it to promote twi doctrine even more requiring COMMITMENT to "those who taught you". Saying there is much more and much more in some 'class'.
They will say you are responsible to act on what you know. Which is to continue with them. Comparing themselves to the way the book of acts is described by them.
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Brushstroke
Her mother knows my religious views and affiliation, and is aware that I disagree with them on a lot of points. Steph has told her because her mother probably asked. And Steph told me her parents will probably just throw the offer out there to accept or reject, it's my choice. That's it. No pressure involved. Even if there is no pressure to join, all claims have a basis in truth and reality, something that actually happened or in what was perceived to be real. So if the experience I have as an outsider isn't quite as extreme as the experiences of you guys when you were in TWI, I'll just remember to balance what I see here with what I see when I get there and what I disagree on with what I agree on, and stay true to what I have discovered as truth.
I'll be fine.
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cman
you won't know it till they they have you, sorry
the game is on till you break it
it is more extreme then you know
they know religions
and they know how to recruit and catch
better then you
we experienced it first hand
you are not going to be able to associate with them without being them
drop us a line if they let you.....
eventually......
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TheHighWay
... from the mouths of the innocent: she is telling you that her folks know you don't agree with their doctrine and that they will make any affiliation with twi your choice... (if only I had a nickel for every time someone told me something was "my choice") The unspoken consequences of choosing wrongly are what they won't tell you up front.
... well, you came here for an experienced point of view, and we have given you one (well, several). Do with it what you will. I believe you will be fine. I hope you won't also be scarred.
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Linda Z
David, no need to blush. I was paying you a compliment when I said that didn't sound like your usual reasonable self. That's why I pointed it out, so you could explain what you really meant. I figured it was mis-speak because it was so atypical.
Do I detect a li'l sarcasm here? Damn, now we know who to blame for everything going to he|| in a handbasket--me! If only I'd been a better editor :lol:
Actually, I did correct his grammar, but questioning/correcting his meaning was left for the research department, not us lowly Way Mag editors.
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Brushstroke
What might these unspoken consequences be...? :blink:
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excathedra
thank you for answering brushstroke you are both pretty young
my love and prayers
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waysider
For starters they'll saddle you with some small responsibility like helping set up chairs.
Before you know it, you'll be the guy who is IN CHARGE of setting up chairs.
They will let you think you are making some important contribution to a noble cause.
It will make you feel needed and important.
It will escalate from there in measured increments until your life revolves around running classes and signing up new students.
(Who, of course, will start out helping them set up chairs.)
Actually, it's probably already started with "the lending of the Blue Book".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did you realize the Blue Book only contains the very basics that are taught in "The Class"?
Yeah, you see the other books go into much greater in-depth detail.
'Course you can't really understand those books by themselves, you have to read them in context with "The Class".
You do want to take the class so you will understand them, don't you?
I mean, once you've heard the "Truth", how could you possibly go back to your "old man" ways?
It would be like a dog that returns to its own vomit.
Besides, once you know what "the adversary" has up his sleeve, it would be foolish to go back to the "world" where he can do as he pleases with you. That would be downright dangerous. You'll be much safer if you stay within "the hedge of protection" that the "one true household" provides.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Starting to get the gist of it?
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Brushstroke
And if I refuse their offer and simply say something like, "I'm sorry. Don't get me wrong, you're very sincere and nice and all, but I don't agree with you." ...?
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waysider
It's usually far more subtle than that.
But if you do get that option, it could well be a turning point.
You see, Brushstroke, we didn't just buy this stuff, we sold it, too.
We even had a "class" that taught us techniques to use to sell the PFAL class and the ministry in general.
It was called "Witnessing and Undershepharding".
Here are some brief exerpts:
"The basic reason we witness is to help people into the classes on Power For Abundant Living -------"
( W&U class syllabus, page #2)
"Witnessing is a way of life as ambassadors to the people of the world".
(page #3)
"witnessing is like life- you make it work by "believing"--".
(page #5)
"I suggest you read How To Win Friends And Influence People by Dale Carnegie.
This will help you in this first step."
(page#7)
FOLLOW THROUGH WITH UNDERSHEPHARDING
(page #11)
"The best tool in undershepharding is the PFAL class.(more than once)"
(page 13)
and on and on and on------
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Brushstroke
How To Win Friends and Influence People? What is this?! I know what the book is, I am asking why they need to resort to tactics like this in order to gain converts. It's sickening to me that TWI can't just say what they believe without resorting to these underhanded tactics of persuasion.
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jen-o
well.....
i'm gonna give you some motherly advice... =:~D
(although it may not be too popular... LOL)
i have 3 teenage boys (one of them your age), and if one of them came to me with this situation, this is what i would say:
look, honey, you're young; you're only 18... you met a girl online (it's probably not the 1st time, and it probably won't be the last)... sure, it's fun to chat and exchange ideas online... but you really don't know someone thru an online relationship!... why get involved in a long distance relationship at such a young age?... relationships are difficult enough, and long distance relationships are even harder...
honey, i think you need to find people to interact with here in town (where you will have real life interactions, and not just via a computer)... i do not think that it is wise to become emotionally attached to someone via a computer screen... why don't you let the Lord lead you (to a girl who shares your more orthodox christian beliefs)... why knowingly get involved with someone that you know has beliefs and ideas that are so far removed from your own?... you will end up constantly butting heads over basic doctrinal issues... you're young, take your time, don't become so emotionally attached or involved with someone over the internet, cultivate relationships here at home, and let the Lord lead and guide you...
peace,
momma jen-o
:~)
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dmiller
Brushstoke -- I got involved with twi back in 1975. If they had said what they REALLY believe (up front and honestly) to all who were considering the class (pfal) and eventual membership in the outfit --- I doubt that they would've had as many *takers* as they did. What was portrayed to the public view, and what happened behind closed doors were two very different things entirely.
Some here will say that docvic (Victor Wierwille) was corrupt from the very beginning.
Others will say he started out with good intentions, but then got *choked by the thorns* of life.
Regardless --- twi's M.O. hasn't changed, and their end goal is membership -- with your $$$.
In THEIR wallet -- not yours.
I doubt seriously that I could go and visit the farm there at New Knoxville (even if I wanted to),
and be allowed to walk around without intense scrutiny, and severe restictions.
ah hell -- one ex-member went to visit a grave site in the Way Woods there, and was arrested.
May as well lay it out on the line for you. If you aren't in *good standing* with them,
faithfully passing $$$ from your wallet to their bank account, you are no longer *Welcome at the Way*
Which brings me back to the point you brought up, about the book.
No --- they can't just *say what they believe* without
*resorting to underhanded techniques of persuasion* like you said.
The *ministry* is built on a man -- docvic. Jesus isn't in the equation.
Docvic used a LOT of other folk's work -- to promote his own.
He was sincere about it -- but to quote him ----
Sincerity Is NO Guarantee For Truth.
Everything you've been told here by everyone comes from personal experience.
It's a road we all walked at one time, and regretted later in life.
And a lot of us were your age when we started on it.
I didn't realize at first, that this was an online relationship.
*momma* jen-o has some good advice! ;)
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TheHighWay
As others have said, the "unspoken consequences" can be anything from a subtle pressure to "do the right thing because you know it's God's Word" to being declared "mark and avoid" which means being blacklisted from any and all twi activities and being bad-mouthed to all the folks you thought were your life-long friends, who will in turn no longer speak to you in fear of being black-listed themselves. Because we were taught that turning your back on twi is tantamount to turning your back on God and walking out from under His protection. In your case I would think the consequences for you would be that the parents would put the subtle pressure on their daughter to find another boyfriend, which she would dutifully do as a loving, obedient daughter in the Word.
Why can't they just say up front what they believe and act accordingly? I think they genuinely believe they do and are. When I was taught Carnegie's methods as a tool I was told it was okay to use what whatever works because we are selling people on the eternal TRUTH, not just some man-made product. As I've said in previous posts, the biggest obstacle to genuine dialog with these folks is their deep seated belief that they are RIGHT, and that everyone else is NOT. They think they've studied the Bible more, analyzed it more, lived it more accurately, than any other group. How do you shake that belief out of someone? (if you ever find the answer be sure to let national security know so we can use the technique on the Taliban and others!)
Also you need to realize that VPW built this ministry on a foundation of branching off from mainline Christianity, and of teaching "new truths" (well, truth forgotten by Christians since the first century). If you were to sit through most any twi class (or probably most teachings for that matter) you would be amazed at how often they teach something NOT the way it is written in the King James. They will tell you that a study of the original text or a comparison of the usage of this particular word or topic throughout the Bible reveals that it REALLY means "--------" (their current spin) and that true believers will behave "---------" (their current practice). Now, if those doctrines and practices remained consistant throughout the group and throughout the years, I would probably not have as much of a problem with them. But because VP also taught that God continues to teach those with willing hearts, and that the primary way to show your meekness to God is to show meekness to the leadership, the interpretation and practice of these same verses changes over time. Not only that, but what one leader allows another does not, and what one leader demands, another does not. There is almost NO accountability. So, while the methods and tactics used are universal (incremental steps, bait and hook, subtle coersion, build-up of fear, isolation from outside sources of information and help) -- the actual experiences can vary hugely.
I had been involved in twi for six years, taken many of their classes and even spent a year in their one-year Bible College program when there was a major falling out between the leadership. Everything was a mess. But I was married to another twi person and we were scheduled to start their leadership training. What to do? I went into the training with the attitude that I would watch everything very carefully and reserve judgement, watching for the negatives, the inconsistencies, the problems of which I had been warned. Within six months of being there I was vehemently defending the ministry and its current leadership. Something I now look back on with embarrassment. It is just SO easy to get sucked in without meaning to... that is why we are all warning you so hard to be very, very careful.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Brushstroke/Phil, it is interesting that the title of the "Blue" book is based on the children's hymn Jesus Loves Me(proably not sung in the Greek or Russian Orthodox
church
), this I know for the Bible tells me so. If TWI were really honest it would say"Doctor Wierwille loves me this I know ,for he tells me that is so"
All the women to him belong for they are weak but he 's too strong. Yes, docvic loves me(repeat 2 more times), for all the lies he told. Gawsh, you is my kids. Whoops, the devil spirit named legion tried to posses me. Where's Taps/Ghost Hunters when you need them?
To any females who just felt insulted , please for give me, for I know not what I do. My humble apologies. My satire was too painful, just got caugth(where's the dictionary when you need one?) up in the morose humor.
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WordWolf
The CLAIM is that they're concerned with truth over everything else.
The REALITY is the actions of those in NOW and those in BEFORE belie that.
Excuse after excuse comes out as to why it's all right to lie to people.
Asking why any of various twi leaders was kicked out?
You will get non-answers and avoidances of answers,
and someone may completely lie to you. Why?
"That the ministry be not blamed."
Is someone lying to you to get you to take "the class?"
Well, it's for your own good- to get you to take the class.
etc. etc.
If twi wants someone to, they'll lie or do worse.
That's why some people left.
It's also why some people did worse-one man blew his brains out because he couldn't
reconcile his mind with "the president of twi is having sex with my wife" and
"adultery is sinful" without reaching
"the president of twi is practicing sin",
and shot himself instead of leaving or shooting lcm.
=====
The more connection you have with twi or those in twi, the more "leverage" they
have over you. That means nothing-until you do what they don't want you to.
Then all sorts of measures will be taken to get you to conform.
You'll be disapproved of socially, made a pariah, have loved ones be told to avoid you,
and all leaders will do everything they can to get you to conform.
That means they will do everything they can to get you to agree to meet with them privately,
behind doors that can be locked-which will, and then they will verbally abuse you, at conversation
levels, then screaming at you, until you conform. They've done that to married couples, and once
one spouse 'breaks', they will focus on the other.
Think I'm exaggerating? A number of posters here, from different states and different years,
reported that happened to them. You can find the posts here, or they can sing out again.
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WordWolf
Oh, then all interactions with you will be oriented on getting you to conform.
See, first of all, you're supposed to cut all connections with people outside twi, since twi is THE
sole source of all connections. There will be all sorts of justifications, and one event at a time,
they'll want you to choose to spend each event with OTHERS, INSTEAD,
with THEM. Slowly, they'll strangle your connections with others.
Once that happens, they've got you.
They will use any and all connections with you as LEVERAGE, as CLUBS to beat you over the head with.
Please note this is CONSISTENT, and thus PREDICTABLE.
So, maintain all your connections with family, friends, professionals, etc.
Look, even if I'm 100% wrong, there's no loss in staying in touch, and it's good to stay in touch.
If I'm right, you'll save yourself a lot of heartache.
(You'll deprive them of one of their best weapons.)
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krys
WordWolf is not wrong!
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Oakspear
Krysilis is not wrong about WordWolf not being wrong
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Ham
Interesting.
Considering that "they" (the parents.. and most everyone else involved in the way) have been threatened (ahem, "warned") to stay off the internet.. i.e., no surfing, no playing around on the net.. if you really need something there, get on, then get off- AS SOON AS POSSIBLE- because that it's a possible conduit to possession- I'd have a few questions.
I'm not being accusatory.. consider it food for thought..
What is the young lady even DOING there?
Are the parents aware that she is seeking a connection with someone on the "infested with devils" internet?
If so, do they approve of this? Or not? If not, what would they say?
apparently she is eighteen years old, still living at home.. is it possible.. they are looking for someplace for her to go, ANYWHERE?
I'm just saying.. or rather asking.
:)
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waysider
I was "witnessed to" by a twig of young people out witnessing in a park.
They were 4 or 5 years younger than me.
One rather attractive young lady took it upon herself to assume the undershepharding responsibilities.
Almost immediately, she started to gently move me away from my friends and capitalize my time.
(But not in a possessive kind of way that you might see in a made-for-TV movie.)
She followed everything in the W&U class to a tee (even though there actually was no W&U class yet at that time.)
It was completely platonic. I found that to be quite refreshing. (In contrast to some of the subculture I was hanging out with).
We spent lots and lots of time that first week discussing what I thought at that time were philosophical issues.
I know I said many things that I later found out were contrary to Way doctrine.
She was very cautious, though, not to correct me but rather she presented an alternate perspective for my consideration.
We read the Word and the Blue Book quite a bit together.
Not long after that, I found myself in PFAL.
Of course, now we had even more to discuss and bond over.
I felt pretty close to her.
Our (platonic) friendship was getting quite strong.
(or so I thought)
At about the middle of the class, I discovered by accident that she was actually the class instructor's fiance!!
Man, I felt like a real sap . But by that time I had become so enthralled with the class I didn't even consider dropping out.
Someone else took over the undershepharding duties almost immediately.
This time it was a guy.
That actually made it even easier for me to believe I was there for the class and not a gender based relationship.
I went from being a "free wheelin', guitar totin' hippie" to a bona fide Jesus Freak in what must have been record time.
Looking back on it, I still don't understand how I let it happen.
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Ham
Interesting.. I've gone back to a free wheelin.. wouldn't call it hippie exactly.. I'd get on the bus.. but it's far too late..
I think we all were born too late.
:)
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