I cannot imagine the pain these girls and women are going through, especially the younger ones, if the cult is all they've ever known.
I expect some will want to go back - better the devil you know than the devil you don't know.
My hope and prayer is that they will look around the new world they've been brought into, and see that it isn't so bad, and also that God is much, much bigger than they've ever been taught. I hope God wipes the tears from their eyes and fills them with wonder. I hope they learn to live without fear. I hope they dare to take chances. I hope they see the stars in a different light, the truth in a clear light, and I hope the sun shines on their faces with warmth and love.
When I watched the news report on it last night, I couldn't help but think, what were they thinking?  How could the colony feel they were safe in Texas considering what happened to the Koresh followers in  Waco?  The wisdom behind the decision to move from the Utah/Arizona border town of Colorado City to Texas where they have the death penalty, the Waco incident, where everyone owns a gun, and where the Texas Rangers are legendary, eludes me.  Texas is no pushover state, what were they thinking?
The other thing I noticed is that the people who were taking care of the women and children had no idea of whom they were dealing with. This polygimist group is such a closed society of backwoods type rural people, that to be thrust into a camp being managed by outsiders has got to be a very scary foreign experience for them.  I hope they get some people with experience withÂ
this particlular group to help take care of them.  These are family units being disrupted, not our idea of what a family is, but a family still the same, family dynamics are sometimes a complex thing, outsiders trying to to make them fit into a particular box against their will might be damaging as well.
When I watched the news report on it last night, I couldn't help but think, what were they thinking? How could the colony feel they were safe in Texas considering what happened to the Koresh followers in Waco? The wisdom behind the decision to move from the Utah/Arizona border town of Colorado City to Texas where they have the death penalty, the Waco incident, where everyone owns a gun, and where the Texas Rangers are legendary, eludes me. Texas is no pushover state, what were they thinking?
Ummm...you expect people who give their 14 year old daughters to be impregnated by 50 year old men to be thinking clearly? These people are brainwashed and blinded, so they weren't really able to think much.
However, Texas does have a lot of land, where you can do all sorts of things and never get caught. West Texas in particular is sort of a no man's land where you can do a lot and nobody else would ever know about it. I have a friend from El Paso and some of the stories he's told me are shocking. This state is also known for protecting religious beliefs more than many others. The Waco thing wasn't the Texas authorities, but rather the federal government so it could have happened anywhere.
Texas is a haven for crimes of all sorts too. If I look out the window behind me at work, I see a strip club that always gets busted for prostitution and never shut down. There are whorehouses all around, at least three or four within a mile radius of my office that are obvious (they say "Asian massage" and other obvious things) and I work in one of the nicest, most expensive areas of Houston. There are at least two stores to buy sex toys and porn within a mile of here, one of which is at a major intersection in front of an expensive mall that people come from all over the world to shop at. There are places to buy bongs and crack pipes all over the place, and I know of a restaurant where you can openly smoke weed out on their patio. I've called the cops for various things I've seen, such as a kidnapping up the street, and one time that my truck was hit by another driver that I assume was drunk and was told by the 911 operator that they couldn't do anything about it.
So, Texas wasn't the worst place for the polygamist cult to settle. The people here are not as crazy as the people in Ohio, but there is a much more live and let live attitude here, and if nobody knows a crime is going on in your secluded ranch, who would bother you?
I just heard on the news the children rights were violated by the state of Texax.
good i believe they were.
how would you like it if somone called the state and said they were being violated and they took all the kids in your enitre town and put them through the interogation these kids went through?
the news said the call did come from a 16 year old girl within the compound.. but they have yet to find her.
16is quite the age . not for nothing .
so take everyones children away from them?
geez texas needs to calm down they are americans and we have rights here I do not care if they do not like the church they belong too they had no right and i hope pays dearly for what they have done.
No it isnt legal for a church to commint a crime.
but in this case with the custody of over 400 children I think the state is nuts and have nor right to keep these moms and children for one phone call in which they have yet to find the caller.
i know few will side with my opinion it is easy to hate those who are different.
The states vary in what is the legal age for marriage in some states it is very young with a parents signiture.
Im certain if laws were broke they would have been arrested for it. the leader is in prison for helping with a rape? what the heck is that?
a woman who left who has wrote a book called "escape said the woman in the compound are so isolated they really can not get any help/ so i hear ya.
maybe this their only chance to leave it is all good .
they had no warrant to go on that property . to be honest i hope the church wins and the state is found to be in violation. but I am also happy the moms and children can get an oppurtunity to speak if they want to while in custody.
i do not know mister in New York we are regulated by the state and by the counties and by the towns it never ends with the "zoning" maybe because of all the wide open space it isnt needed in texas as much.
So this guy of 49 or 50 "spiritually marries" one or several kids of 15, gets indicted, does a plea bargain and gets 45 days in the nick??? Ah - something wrong with this picture??
Doncha just love the acceptance of the "spiritual marriage" (as opposed to the legal marriage, which clearly didn't happen)? Doncha just love the way the girl's parents themselves are no longer at the Ranch: what is this place, a corral for wayward girls? Does this make the parents procurers (like Rosalie?)? Parents sound deep into the program themselves, normal parents would cut the b0lls off any male that messed with their 15 year old daughter - especially some pervert 3 times her age.
Yeah, I can relate. All too well. Sorry for the girls, sorry for the parents - and greatly angry at the old goats that rape the children.
imediate danger well that is the very reason it is going into court 400 kids from one phone call from a yet unfound 16.
the thing is the states vary in what age consental sex is legal in NY it is 17 and I know other states are younger.
As far as marriage in some states with a consent of a parent a "minor can be legaly married in the eyes of the state. i do not think they are spiritual marriages only.
In NY it is 14 and at times the matter is brought before a judge to consider if it is valid other states differ in their laws, they very well could be lawfully married.
and that is the thing twinky these girls didnt get pulled off the street and sold into this thinking they were raised into it and are living in a remote isolated community that endorses it.
you might think it is wrong but many of them do not.
the lady that left and wrote the book escape, says they know no other way to live.
so to them it isnt so bad. so what right does the state have to say it must be?
but that aside the fact their leader is in jail for helping in a rape the whole down home gang sound wacky to me.
I watched part of CNN's Larry King show tonight on the FLDS/Texas raid, he had on woman named Valerie, who had been raised in a "mainstreamed" polygamist family who lived apart of any colony on the outside with regular people, went to regular public school, and chose for herself to continue in polygamy and asserted she was very happy in her lifestyle.  She is also raising her kids the same way, wants them to go to college etc, and decide for themselves what their family makeup will be when they grow up. Â
Larry King also had an Arizona reporter who has been covering the Utah/Arizona and now Texas FLDS sect for at least a decade commet on this lady's lifestyle and the current Texas cases.
Mike Watkiss (reporter) answering Larry's question, Mike, what do you think of Valerie, obviously intelligent and open.:
"WATKISS: I'm sure she is and I'm sure everything she's saying is true. It's wonderful. I'm happy she's happy and I'm sure it's a happy, healthy family. I think it has nothing to do with what's happening here in Texas.
Hers is an interesting lifestyle story that we're all sort of interested (in); how do these women share a husband?. She has said multiple times she had choices. She had contact with the outside world. And having covered this as long as I have...the women and children in this community (FLDS Texas) do not have the same benefits that Valerie has enjoyed.
(There's) A lot of defense leagues stepping forward to defend polygamy. I know every cop and every prosecutor who is now stepping forward and doing something about this, and to a person, none of them care about polygamy when it's consenting adults, men and women, women who have had education and choices, like Valerie clearly has had, to make these choices.
The little 16-year-old girl here in Texas who triggered this entire thing didn't have any of that. And Ruth Stubbs, Pennie's little sister, didn't have any of that. So I think -- it's an interesting story. It has nothing to do...It has no bearing on what's going on in Arizona and Utah and certainly nothing that's going on in Texas."
You can get a transcript of the whole show from Cnn, but what he's saying is none of the officials nor he cares about ANYONE choosing to live a polygamist lifestyle and all that goes with it, it's a lifestyle choice. Â
The problem happens when a minor doesn't have the choice, and is abused.  I tend to agree with that. Â
Here's what draws my attention to this situation in Texas:
It makes me remember the continuous battle which raged in my own mind throughout my experience with the Way. My good sense, which told me the isolation and the rigidity and the hatred towards outsiders and the abuses to insiders ... all that stuff ... my good sense said, "RUN AWAY !!". But my cult-brain told me I would be rejected by God, my children would suffer, the devil would get me, the whole label of "Greasespot by midnight". Being always surrounded by others in the same boat - it was too hard to make an escape.
I am wondering if the people on that YFZ Ranch struggle with the same battle in their minds.
It will be interesting to see how many of the women return to the ranch, after the situation is resolved.
It's already interesting that so many have voluntarily left. On the surface, it appears that they are simply accompanying their children, so they can take care of them. It made me think of going L.E.A.D., and having to leave my own children at Rome City. This was so hard for me to do. Unnatural and promoting family division. Similar to Mrs. Wierwille bragging about leaving her baby when they went to India. We were taught that even this was necessary for the furtherment of God's Word.
I think those mothers from the YFZ Ranch were probably taught the same thing. This is the funky and bizarre rationale behind sharing your husband too - you do it for God.
So, is it just me, empathizing and sympathizing with the people in this situation? It just seems so familiar.
God bless the teen mom who spoke up. God bless the families who now have a chance to be free.
If you read through the multitude of comments on some of the news sites it becomes pretty evident that yes, they did just "marry spiritually" because the state doesn't allow polygamy. With no legal marriage, they aren't breaking state law. This also allows all these "unwed mothers" to collect welfare and virtually live off the state. They think they are "putting it to the outsiders" by doing this. In addition, this allows them to rearrange things from time to time, breaking up families and handing a "wife" of one man over to be the "wife" of another man when they see fit. Just an unbelievable situation.
I know that the whole thing will be traumatic for the kids, because they have been taught their whole lives to fear the outside world. But I have to think that getting them out of there and getting them help is far better than just turning a blind eye to the whole thing. At least some of them will have a chance to recover and move on with their lives. But I'm fairly certain that many of the adult women, having lived this lifestyle for so long, would willingly go back to it when released. Just so sad...
Does anyone remember Wierwille stating that intercourse is always a spiritual event?
He also said something about the consummation being a key ingredient in what constitutes a marriage in God's eyes.
He said the spiritual marriage in God's eyes is the only one that really counts and that a legal marriage is just something to satisfy the law of the land.
I think it might have been in CF&S.
Therefore, by his own definition, he himself practiced polygamy and promoted it as a doctrine amongst the upper echelon of TWI.
(At least within the "spiritual" sense he used to define it.)
Does anyone remember Wierwille stating that intercourse is always a spiritual event?
He also said something about the consummation being a key ingredient in what constitutes a marriage in God's eyes.
He said the spiritual marriage in God's eyes is the only one that really counts and that a legal marriage is just something to satisfy the law of the land.
I think it might have been in CF&S.
Therefore, by his own definition, he himself practiced polygamy and promoted it as a doctrine amongst the upper echelon of TWI.
(At least within the "spiritual" sense he used to define it.)
I do remember ol' Vic saying that..
Gee, now that you say that, it makes the ol' TWI during Vic and LCM reigns more understandable!
This is my point - the similarities between YFZ ranch and the Way. Where did WE have to go, when they kicked us out? No job, no money, and most of us had burned our bridges back to family and friends.
And Trust and Obey ...
You're right. They did it in TWI, polygamy of a sort, at least among the top dogs.
In my experience, the doctrines concerning marriages in a spiritual sense only are dangerous enough as it applies to the church.
Even more so when the sexual act is included in the mess. As if spiritualising it or any other justification over-rides what amounts to simple adultery or fornication. I'm fairly certain that Paul menioned these things along with an exhortation to not be decieved in at least one place.
I've seen folks consider themselves "joined" to a man in a spiritual sense even while they broke down the plain and simple commandments concerning the "for real marriage". I'm thinking that such joinings are often no better than a "white wedding" as sung by Billy Idol. If that's how it comes out in the wash when it's all said and done, there will be some very surprised and disssapointed people when the Lord has his say.
It certainly is clear at any rate that when men exercise authority over followers, that there is an abundant number of ways for them to completely screw things up IMO.
I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP. Once a man I knew in a little splinter group that I was a part of explained to me that it was o.k. with him that all the women in the group acted like beatle groupies (beatle groupies are my words, not his) when the MOG came around, even his wife and daughers. If anyone questioned this (I know by experience) they were marked as malcontents or worse. After all, this was only how this man's ministry worked, and to question his motives in allowing the ladies to act a little crazy was to be disloyal to the MOG. Never mind that he shared with us all that in order for him to continue in the ministry he had to forsake his own wedding vows. In hindsight I have no trouble saying that this whole situation was very twisted and very dangerous.
If you read through the multitude of comments on some of the news sites it becomes pretty evident that yes, they did just "marry spiritually" because the state doesn't allow polygamy. With no legal marriage, they aren't breaking state law. This also allows all these "unwed mothers" to collect welfare and virtually live off the state. They think they are "putting it to the outsiders" by doing this. In addition, this allows them to rearrange things from time to time, breaking up families and handing a "wife" of one man over to be the "wife" of another man when they see fit. Just an unbelievable situation.
I know that the whole thing will be traumatic for the kids, because they have been taught their whole lives to fear the outside world. But I have to think that getting them out of there and getting them help is far better than just turning a blind eye to the whole thing. At least some of them will have a chance to recover and move on with their lives. But I'm fairly certain that many of the adult women, having lived this lifestyle for so long, would willingly go back to it when released. Just so sad...
Highway, I understand your point about their not having broken state law because it's not a "legal marriage," and you make some other good points, but since they lived as man and wife, it's at least a commonlaw marriage.
That said, I'll leave your comments, and make a few of my own.
The main issue here, which cannot be altered by sincere ladies in prairie dresses and funny hairdos glaring at the camera and being self-rightous, or even being humble and gentle, is that this is rape. It's illegal for girls under the age of 17 to give consent to sexual intercourse in Texas, and it's illegal for a parent to give a child for sex. Parents in Texas can sign for children to marry once the children are 16, but not before. These children were not old enough to consent, and they weren't old enough for their folks to consent. Religious disdain for the law is no excuse for breaking the law.
There is no legal definition for this other than rape. It doesn't matter that they were raised to it, expected it, or even wanted it. They were not old enough under the law, so it is rape. Some children are raised to be prostitues, others raised to be thieves; that is illegal, and so is this. The veneer of Biblical posturing does not change the law, or the responsibility that those adults had to protect the safety of those children.
I don't understand how these adults can be so righteously indignant. Don't they realize that every adult in that compound, both those who raped, those who gave the girls to be raped, and those who stood by and knew about it but did nothing to stop it, are all going to jail? They are child rapists, panderers, and enablers of child rapists and panderers.
It really ticks me off that these idiots thought they could move to my home state and get away with this.
After a while, I might stop sugarcoating this, and tell you how I really feel. :)
The biggest similarity that I see is how one sick and twisted man can do generations of damage to his 'followers'
(snip)
It certainly is clear at any rate that when men exercise authority over followers, that there is an abundant number of ways for them to completely screw things up IMO.
I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP. Once a man I knew in a little splinter group that I was a part of explained to me that it was o.k. with him that all the women in the group acted like beatle groupies (beatle groupies are my words, not his) when the MOG came around, even his wife and daughers. If anyone questioned this (I know by experience) they were marked as malcontents or worse. After all, this was only how this man's ministry worked, and to question his motives in allowing the ladies to act a little crazy was to be disloyal to the MOG. Never mind that he shared with us all that in order for him to continue in the ministry he had to forsake his own wedding vows. In hindsight I have no trouble saying that this whole situation was very twisted and very dangerous.
(snip)
The main issue here, which cannot be altered by sincere ladies in prairie dresses and funny hairdos glaring at the camera and being self-rightous, or even being humble and gentle, is that this is rape. It's illegal for girls under the age of 17 to give consent to sexual intercourse in Texas, and it's illegal for a parent to give a child for sex. Parents in Texas can sign for children to marry once the children are 16, but not before. These children were not old enough to consent, and they weren't old enough for their folks to consent. Religious disdain for the law is no excuse for breaking the law.
There is no legal definition for this other than rape. It doesn't matter that they were raised to it, expected it, or even wanted it. They were not old enough under the law, so it is rape. Some children are raised to be prostitutes, others raised to be thieves; that is illegal, and so is this. The veneer of Biblical posturing does not change the law, or the responsibility that those adults had to protect the safety of those children.
I don't understand how these adults can be so righteously indignant. Don't they realize that every adult in that compound, both those who raped, those who gave the girls to be raped, and those who stood by and knew about it but did nothing to stop it, are all going to jail? They are child rapists, panderers, and enablers of child rapists and panderers.
Recommended Posts
Watered Garden
I cannot imagine the pain these girls and women are going through, especially the younger ones, if the cult is all they've ever known.
I expect some will want to go back - better the devil you know than the devil you don't know.
My hope and prayer is that they will look around the new world they've been brought into, and see that it isn't so bad, and also that God is much, much bigger than they've ever been taught. I hope God wipes the tears from their eyes and fills them with wonder. I hope they learn to live without fear. I hope they dare to take chances. I hope they see the stars in a different light, the truth in a clear light, and I hope the sun shines on their faces with warmth and love.
In short, I hope they dance.
WG
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cheranne
Yes it is sad,it's one thing to get involved as an adult with "free will"(and i use that term with fragile handle carefully)
but to bring in an innocent child,who has no say or rights just do as told..that is just SICK.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
coolchef
you are all right,and the sad thing is lots of them will want to go back.soo sad
Link to comment
Share on other sites
now I see
When I watched the news report on it last night, I couldn't help but think, what were they thinking?  How could the colony feel they were safe in Texas considering what happened to the Koresh followers in  Waco?  The wisdom behind the decision to move from the Utah/Arizona border town of Colorado City to Texas where they have the death penalty, the Waco incident, where everyone owns a gun, and where the Texas Rangers are legendary, eludes me.  Texas is no pushover state, what were they thinking?
The other thing I noticed is that the people who were taking care of the women and children had no idea of whom they were dealing with. This polygimist group is such a closed society of backwoods type rural people, that to be thrust into a camp being managed by outsiders has got to be a very scary foreign experience for them.  I hope they get some people with experience withÂ
this particlular group to help take care of them.  These are family units being disrupted, not our idea of what a family is, but a family still the same, family dynamics are sometimes a complex thing, outsiders trying to to make them fit into a particular box against their will might be damaging as well.
Edited by but now I seeLink to comment
Share on other sites
Mister P-Mosh
Ummm...you expect people who give their 14 year old daughters to be impregnated by 50 year old men to be thinking clearly? These people are brainwashed and blinded, so they weren't really able to think much.
However, Texas does have a lot of land, where you can do all sorts of things and never get caught. West Texas in particular is sort of a no man's land where you can do a lot and nobody else would ever know about it. I have a friend from El Paso and some of the stories he's told me are shocking. This state is also known for protecting religious beliefs more than many others. The Waco thing wasn't the Texas authorities, but rather the federal government so it could have happened anywhere.
Texas is a haven for crimes of all sorts too. If I look out the window behind me at work, I see a strip club that always gets busted for prostitution and never shut down. There are whorehouses all around, at least three or four within a mile radius of my office that are obvious (they say "Asian massage" and other obvious things) and I work in one of the nicest, most expensive areas of Houston. There are at least two stores to buy sex toys and porn within a mile of here, one of which is at a major intersection in front of an expensive mall that people come from all over the world to shop at. There are places to buy bongs and crack pipes all over the place, and I know of a restaurant where you can openly smoke weed out on their patio. I've called the cops for various things I've seen, such as a kidnapping up the street, and one time that my truck was hit by another driver that I assume was drunk and was told by the 911 operator that they couldn't do anything about it.
So, Texas wasn't the worst place for the polygamist cult to settle. The people here are not as crazy as the people in Ohio, but there is a much more live and let live attitude here, and if nobody knows a crime is going on in your secluded ranch, who would bother you?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pond
I just heard on the news the children rights were violated by the state of Texax.
good i believe they were.
how would you like it if somone called the state and said they were being violated and they took all the kids in your enitre town and put them through the interogation these kids went through?
the news said the call did come from a 16 year old girl within the compound.. but they have yet to find her.
16is quite the age . not for nothing .
so take everyones children away from them?
geez texas needs to calm down they are americans and we have rights here I do not care if they do not like the church they belong too they had no right and i hope pays dearly for what they have done.
No it isnt legal for a church to commint a crime.
but in this case with the custody of over 400 children I think the state is nuts and have nor right to keep these moms and children for one phone call in which they have yet to find the caller.
i know few will side with my opinion it is easy to hate those who are different.
The states vary in what is the legal age for marriage in some states it is very young with a parents signiture.
Im certain if laws were broke they would have been arrested for it. the leader is in prison for helping with a rape? what the heck is that?
a woman who left who has wrote a book called "escape said the woman in the compound are so isolated they really can not get any help/ so i hear ya.
maybe this their only chance to leave it is all good .
they had no warrant to go on that property . to be honest i hope the church wins and the state is found to be in violation. but I am also happy the moms and children can get an oppurtunity to speak if they want to while in custody.
i do not know mister in New York we are regulated by the state and by the counties and by the towns it never ends with the "zoning" maybe because of all the wide open space it isnt needed in texas as much.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Shellon
This is the affidavit
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/images/04...z.affidavit.pdf
The investigator believed that given the immediate danger, there was no time for adversary hearing
Given how often everyone hollars when they leave the kids and should not have, this was a smart move.
Edited by ShellonLink to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Excuse me one moment...
...Okay, back from throwing up...
So this guy of 49 or 50 "spiritually marries" one or several kids of 15, gets indicted, does a plea bargain and gets 45 days in the nick??? Ah - something wrong with this picture??
Doncha just love the acceptance of the "spiritual marriage" (as opposed to the legal marriage, which clearly didn't happen)? Doncha just love the way the girl's parents themselves are no longer at the Ranch: what is this place, a corral for wayward girls? Does this make the parents procurers (like Rosalie?)? Parents sound deep into the program themselves, normal parents would cut the b0lls off any male that messed with their 15 year old daughter - especially some pervert 3 times her age.
Yeah, I can relate. All too well. Sorry for the girls, sorry for the parents - and greatly angry at the old goats that rape the children.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pond
imediate danger well that is the very reason it is going into court 400 kids from one phone call from a yet unfound 16.
the thing is the states vary in what age consental sex is legal in NY it is 17 and I know other states are younger.
As far as marriage in some states with a consent of a parent a "minor can be legaly married in the eyes of the state. i do not think they are spiritual marriages only.
In NY it is 14 and at times the matter is brought before a judge to consider if it is valid other states differ in their laws, they very well could be lawfully married.
and that is the thing twinky these girls didnt get pulled off the street and sold into this thinking they were raised into it and are living in a remote isolated community that endorses it.
you might think it is wrong but many of them do not.
the lady that left and wrote the book escape, says they know no other way to live.
so to them it isnt so bad. so what right does the state have to say it must be?
but that aside the fact their leader is in jail for helping in a rape the whole down home gang sound wacky to me.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
now I see
I watched part of CNN's Larry King show tonight on the FLDS/Texas raid, he had on woman named Valerie, who had been raised in a "mainstreamed" polygamist family who lived apart of any colony on the outside with regular people, went to regular public school, and chose for herself to continue in polygamy and asserted she was very happy in her lifestyle.  She is also raising her kids the same way, wants them to go to college etc, and decide for themselves what their family makeup will be when they grow up. Â
Larry King also had an Arizona reporter who has been covering the Utah/Arizona and now Texas FLDS sect for at least a decade commet on this lady's lifestyle and the current Texas cases.
Mike Watkiss (reporter) answering Larry's question, Mike, what do you think of Valerie, obviously intelligent and open.:
"WATKISS: I'm sure she is and I'm sure everything she's saying is true. It's wonderful. I'm happy she's happy and I'm sure it's a happy, healthy family. I think it has nothing to do with what's happening here in Texas.
Hers is an interesting lifestyle story that we're all sort of interested (in); how do these women share a husband?. She has said multiple times she had choices. She had contact with the outside world. And having covered this as long as I have...the women and children in this community (FLDS Texas) do not have the same benefits that Valerie has enjoyed.
(There's) A lot of defense leagues stepping forward to defend polygamy. I know every cop and every prosecutor who is now stepping forward and doing something about this, and to a person, none of them care about polygamy when it's consenting adults, men and women, women who have had education and choices, like Valerie clearly has had, to make these choices.
The little 16-year-old girl here in Texas who triggered this entire thing didn't have any of that. And Ruth Stubbs, Pennie's little sister, didn't have any of that. So I think -- it's an interesting story. It has nothing to do...It has no bearing on what's going on in Arizona and Utah and certainly nothing that's going on in Texas."
You can get a transcript of the whole show from Cnn, but what he's saying is none of the officials nor he cares about ANYONE choosing to live a polygamist lifestyle and all that goes with it, it's a lifestyle choice. Â
The problem happens when a minor doesn't have the choice, and is abused.  I tend to agree with that. Â
Â
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cheranne
I am glad they are helping those people.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Shifra
Here's what draws my attention to this situation in Texas:
It makes me remember the continuous battle which raged in my own mind throughout my experience with the Way. My good sense, which told me the isolation and the rigidity and the hatred towards outsiders and the abuses to insiders ... all that stuff ... my good sense said, "RUN AWAY !!". But my cult-brain told me I would be rejected by God, my children would suffer, the devil would get me, the whole label of "Greasespot by midnight". Being always surrounded by others in the same boat - it was too hard to make an escape.
I am wondering if the people on that YFZ Ranch struggle with the same battle in their minds.
It will be interesting to see how many of the women return to the ranch, after the situation is resolved.
It's already interesting that so many have voluntarily left. On the surface, it appears that they are simply accompanying their children, so they can take care of them. It made me think of going L.E.A.D., and having to leave my own children at Rome City. This was so hard for me to do. Unnatural and promoting family division. Similar to Mrs. Wierwille bragging about leaving her baby when they went to India. We were taught that even this was necessary for the furtherment of God's Word.
I think those mothers from the YFZ Ranch were probably taught the same thing. This is the funky and bizarre rationale behind sharing your husband too - you do it for God.
So, is it just me, empathizing and sympathizing with the people in this situation? It just seems so familiar.
God bless the teen mom who spoke up. God bless the families who now have a chance to be free.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Where else will they have to go?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheHighWay
If you read through the multitude of comments on some of the news sites it becomes pretty evident that yes, they did just "marry spiritually" because the state doesn't allow polygamy. With no legal marriage, they aren't breaking state law. This also allows all these "unwed mothers" to collect welfare and virtually live off the state. They think they are "putting it to the outsiders" by doing this. In addition, this allows them to rearrange things from time to time, breaking up families and handing a "wife" of one man over to be the "wife" of another man when they see fit. Just an unbelievable situation.
I know that the whole thing will be traumatic for the kids, because they have been taught their whole lives to fear the outside world. But I have to think that getting them out of there and getting them help is far better than just turning a blind eye to the whole thing. At least some of them will have a chance to recover and move on with their lives. But I'm fairly certain that many of the adult women, having lived this lifestyle for so long, would willingly go back to it when released. Just so sad...
Edited by TheHighWayLink to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Does anyone remember Wierwille stating that intercourse is always a spiritual event?
He also said something about the consummation being a key ingredient in what constitutes a marriage in God's eyes.
He said the spiritual marriage in God's eyes is the only one that really counts and that a legal marriage is just something to satisfy the law of the land.
I think it might have been in CF&S.
Therefore, by his own definition, he himself practiced polygamy and promoted it as a doctrine amongst the upper echelon of TWI.
(At least within the "spiritual" sense he used to define it.)
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
TrustAndObey
I do remember ol' Vic saying that..
Gee, now that you say that, it makes the ol' TWI during Vic and LCM reigns more understandable!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Shifra
Waysider ...
This is my point - the similarities between YFZ ranch and the Way. Where did WE have to go, when they kicked us out? No job, no money, and most of us had burned our bridges back to family and friends.
And Trust and Obey ...
You're right. They did it in TWI, polygamy of a sort, at least among the top dogs.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Jim
The biggest similarity that I see is how one sick and twisted man can do generations of damage to his 'followers'
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JeffSjo
In my experience, the doctrines concerning marriages in a spiritual sense only are dangerous enough as it applies to the church.
Even more so when the sexual act is included in the mess. As if spiritualising it or any other justification over-rides what amounts to simple adultery or fornication. I'm fairly certain that Paul menioned these things along with an exhortation to not be decieved in at least one place.
I've seen folks consider themselves "joined" to a man in a spiritual sense even while they broke down the plain and simple commandments concerning the "for real marriage". I'm thinking that such joinings are often no better than a "white wedding" as sung by Billy Idol. If that's how it comes out in the wash when it's all said and done, there will be some very surprised and disssapointed people when the Lord has his say.
It certainly is clear at any rate that when men exercise authority over followers, that there is an abundant number of ways for them to completely screw things up IMO.
I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP. Once a man I knew in a little splinter group that I was a part of explained to me that it was o.k. with him that all the women in the group acted like beatle groupies (beatle groupies are my words, not his) when the MOG came around, even his wife and daughers. If anyone questioned this (I know by experience) they were marked as malcontents or worse. After all, this was only how this man's ministry worked, and to question his motives in allowing the ladies to act a little crazy was to be disloyal to the MOG. Never mind that he shared with us all that in order for him to continue in the ministry he had to forsake his own wedding vows. In hindsight I have no trouble saying that this whole situation was very twisted and very dangerous.
Edited by JeffSjoLink to comment
Share on other sites
notinKansasanymore
Highway, I understand your point about their not having broken state law because it's not a "legal marriage," and you make some other good points, but since they lived as man and wife, it's at least a commonlaw marriage.
That said, I'll leave your comments, and make a few of my own.
The main issue here, which cannot be altered by sincere ladies in prairie dresses and funny hairdos glaring at the camera and being self-rightous, or even being humble and gentle, is that this is rape. It's illegal for girls under the age of 17 to give consent to sexual intercourse in Texas, and it's illegal for a parent to give a child for sex. Parents in Texas can sign for children to marry once the children are 16, but not before. These children were not old enough to consent, and they weren't old enough for their folks to consent. Religious disdain for the law is no excuse for breaking the law.
There is no legal definition for this other than rape. It doesn't matter that they were raised to it, expected it, or even wanted it. They were not old enough under the law, so it is rape. Some children are raised to be prostitues, others raised to be thieves; that is illegal, and so is this. The veneer of Biblical posturing does not change the law, or the responsibility that those adults had to protect the safety of those children.
I don't understand how these adults can be so righteously indignant. Don't they realize that every adult in that compound, both those who raped, those who gave the girls to be raped, and those who stood by and knew about it but did nothing to stop it, are all going to jail? They are child rapists, panderers, and enablers of child rapists and panderers.
It really ticks me off that these idiots thought they could move to my home state and get away with this.
After a while, I might stop sugarcoating this, and tell you how I really feel. :)
These jerks are going away for a long time.
Edited by notinKansasanymoreLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.