Just a note here, something else TWI kind of seemed to gloss over regarding death:
An exciting new revelation:
EVERYBODY DIES!
Oh, another exciting revelation:
DARN NEAR EVERYBODY GETS SICK AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER! SOME PEOPLE DIE FROM THEIR SICKNESS.
I don't know about God choosing people to suffer and die to His glory, but I will say this: VPW and TWI did an excellent job of oversimplifying God and the Bible. One of the most comforting things that ever happened to me post-TWI was when I was sitting in a church several years ago listening to a minister preach on the Trinity, anathema to TWI. A tiny, still, small voice whispered in my ear: "You don't have to understand EVERYTHING. Quit straining and enjoy life."
I was just dumfounded, but profoundly relieved.
a THIRD exciting revelation - this one about life on this planet:
Brideofjc, with the exception of Jesus Christ, I disagree with that opinion.
Jesus is the lamb of God to take away the sins of the world. God chose his son to die... it was God's Will... for that reason. And by his stripes we are healed. I believe God wants healing for his people through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and through the power of the holy spirit; THAT, gives glory to God; not misery and death.
The law of believing may not make sense but the idea that God actually chooses people (other than Christ) to suffer and die a painful agonizing martyr's death for HIS glory makes even less sense to me.
I would refer to you Foxx's book of Martyrs - filled with accounts of people who would not back down from their statements of faith in the Lord Jesus and were willing rather to
die as a martyr rather than be coerced into giving up their faith. Just because it doesn't make sense to you does not negate the truth. If God was not being glorified, then why
was the Lord Jesus LOOKING on the whole scene even as Stephen looked up into heaven and saw his Lord standing there? Then why are the Christians in Sudan being martyred for their faith and what about China? The list goes on and on....all of them lack faith....? I think not!
The question I ask is this: was deliverance available to Peter and Paul?
OM...It was the Lord Jesus who told Peter how he would die and therefore glorify God. Paul was beheaded....with all of that revelation that he received directly from the Lord Jesus and you would contend that he lacked faith??? Was God just sitting up there on HIS throne with HIS arms crossed saying, "My, oh my, if only they would just show a little more faith and I would just reach right down there and snatch them from the jaws of death! Tsk! Tsk! Whatever will I do?" VP was just plain wrong. The Lord Jesus clearly states that we must take up our cross and follow HIM and that means that we are to enter into the FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SUFFERINGS. Most christians like to skip right over that verse....and if they just can't get around it, they read about....fellowship....yeah, yeah, I can dig it....but SUFFERING...? Nope, I'm ONE SPOILED KID! THAT'S ME!
Are you suggesting that God the Father determined the criteria that He wouldn't have deliverance available for his children Peter and Paul to keep them from experiencing these horrible and painful deaths?
My goodness, even flawed earthy fathers are better spoken of about taking care of their kids.
Your logic on this particular subject appears to be horrendously flawed and blasphemous.
And yet even earthly fathers sometimes lose their children to auto accidents, drugs, alcohol, prison, fires, sickness, disease, natural catastrophes, etc. etc. I could have my child walking right next to me and the child still catch their foot on something and fall down, hurting their foot and/or leg. Does this make me an awful parent?
The law of believing may not make sense but the idea that God actually chooses people (other than Christ) to suffer and die a painful agonizing martyr's death for HIS glory makes even less sense to me.
Hebrews 11:13 (NIV)
13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth.
14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own.
15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return.
16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
KJV (Same reference)
13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Wierwille's explanation on this topic makes more sense to me than the others. When that happens, it is my intent to support it over the others until a more sensible explanation comes along. Fr. John brought up Peter and Paul so I'd like to hear the answer why they died that way from his perspective and see if it makes more sense.
oldies.....you hold to wierwille's explanation because, you say, it makes more sense than the others.
On a side-topic of 'death'......could you explain to me how wierwille died of a cancer-devil spirit? Did wierwille let his guard down and get possessed by this cancer spirit...........and then, it killed him?
Seems like I've asked this SEVERAL times......and no wierwille-defender wants to answer it.
Did you ask Fr. John the same question "why did they die"? I'd be interested to know if his answer makes any sense or more sense than twi.
I believe God wants his children to live in prosperity and health; i.e., wants the best for his kids in all situations. But when his children get killed, why do these things happen?
TWI's attempt to explain this might be something like this: Peter and Paul, who certainly were great believers, died like this because for whatever reason they were not believing God for deliverance in that situation. Could they have been delivered? Yes. What would have delivered them? believing God for deliverance.
Jesus said among other things:
Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Mat 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
Comparing the twi answer with answers from other religions is one reason why I haven't abandoned the twi teachings. If twi teachings deny reality, and make little sense, answers from other religions make even less sense to me. For instance, the answer from Fr. John (not putting words in his mouth) might be "it was God's Will". Doesn't make sense to me. God wills his children to die like that? I can't believe God would want his children being killed that way when he has given us power to overcome satan and tells us what to do to overcome satan. I believe God would want deliverance for his children from those situations.
In any case it would be interesting to compare both views and see which one makes more sense to you.
Hey there oldiesman. I was going to respond to this earlier, but I had my college algebra class to get to, so here I am.
Now, the "law of believing" essentially states that positive belief = positive outcomes in life, and that negative belief = negative outcomes in life.
With this, let me put this scenario into your head. Suppose things with Stephanie (my girlfriend who is involved with TWI) and I don't work out, but we wholeheartedly believed that they would. The law of believing, in this case, is negated. It's too black and white, the law of believing doesn't account for chance and probability in the world. If you really want to say that this law applies to something like physical death, then Peter and Paul, two of the greatest leaders of the early Church, one of them having directly been in contact with Christ Himself, would have had insufficient belief.
There are many problems with this, one of which I have already stated: the lack of probability.
1. Is TWI judging their faith? Christ did say, "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you" did He not?
2. This law turns God into a tyrant, or it turns Christian theism into a twisted form of deism. Let's say we have a guy named Bob, and Bob is having problems with his finances. He sincerely prays to God to help him, though he is still distraught with fear and doubt. And will God help him? Well...not if he doesn't rightly believe! But of course, Jesus (I know this is implying He's God, as I believe He is, but His deity is not the point here so if you wanna debate that, start another thread) certainly helped Peter when he fell into the water and cried out "Lord, save me!" (Matt. 14:22-33) and Jesus did not rebuke him and say "believe harder and I'll save you!" Did Christ not also say "Come unto Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest"? (Matt. 11:28) Will He reject those who are tired, depressed, laboring --- those He does not see fit as "rightly believing"?
Or, on the other hand, is God merely a passive bystander (deism) looking on at us as we believe that we will receive abundance in our lives? This is what the law of believing suggests. It suggests that our believing is what causes results, nothing of God's doing. Or is it to say that God is some sort of cosmic philanthropist who gives us whatever we desire, as long as we believe we'll get it? What happened to Christ's response to the rich man who ran to Him and said "Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me." (Mark 10:17-31) Some translations say he went away crying because he was so rich. God wants us to live for Him, and He'll provide what we need. You don't need that new car or that new stereo system, and you will be healed of your wounds with time, God's will that all creation be redeemed will not fail. If there are any holy people in the world, they're monks. They give up everything for complete devotion to God. The law of believing directly contradicts Jesus' own words. You're trusting in your faith, not God.
3. The law of believing is unnecessary. You can believe positively or negatively if you want, there is no need of a "law" regarding which you believe. And besides, making it into a law puts too much definition on life, which as we all know is entirely random. God sends rain on the just and the unjust. Bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people, and vice versa. Rain can be a good harvest, or it can be a depressing day inside your house. This law if it really exists, especially when comparing it to the law of gravity, makes "good" and "bad" definable. Something could be good to one person, it could be a positive outcome, and it could be bad, a negative outcome, to another person. Who decides what is positive and negative? God? But wait, I thought it was the believer who operates the law? Does this imply that the believer will also interpret what is good and what is bad in his life? Or just interpret everything as good or everything as bad?
There are so many things wrong with this law of believing. And besides, what's the fun in having this mortal existence be positive all the time? Why not try to mix it up a bit? I find a certain strange goodness in all my artwork, even that which is depressing. It makes me kind of sad, and so what if it does? In this fallen world, you cannot have faith and gladness without doubt and fear.
So enough of my rambling (but I do hope you read that). Why were Peter and Paul killed for their faith? It's a fallen world, s**t happens. God wants us to be happy and prosperous, yes, but He also lets these bad things happen for the strengthening of our faith. To die for your faith truly is an honor, it shows your devotion. They were happy and prosperous! Not in wealth, but in faith. Not saying death is good, but they're alive in heaven with all the other saints and angels, I assure you.
Nor am I buying into the idiotic "law" of magical believing.)
It ought to be renamed "the law of passing the blame and assigning unwarranted guilt".
Amen! I never realized how much pressure I was putting on myself AND the people I coordinated by teaching the law of believing.
NOW I have genuine peace and prefer to "trust God" in every situation. He knows what is best, He is my refuge and rock AND He's got me covered! I know where my help is coming from but I don't have to figure out everything and believe in my ability to believe.
1 Thessalonians 2:13 - For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
The basic commitment God requires of man is the same in every administration,it is believing. Believing is not a cause,it simply fulfills the conditions necessary for God to bring to pass His will.
oldies.....you hold to wierwille's explanation because, you say, it makes more sense than the others.
On a side-topic of 'death'......could you explain to me how wierwille died of a cancer-devil spirit? Did wierwille let his guard down and get possessed by this cancer spirit...........and then, it killed him?
Seems like I've asked this SEVERAL times......and no wierwille-defender wants to answer it.
:)
I don't think it actually "makes more sense". Perhaps it is more plalatable than other beliefs.
I think of vic's theology more as spiritually immature, sugar coated nonsense which goes down a tad easier than other perhaps more down to earth theologies. Providing one is young, healthy, and employed.
But it causes more problems than it seems to solve.
If you have "God in a Box", and things go really wrong, then there are more holes in the dyke than one has fingers to plug them..
vic's one size fits all positive informercial has a few problems. What happens when people fail to get the positive results that one asserts they can have. It appears to be a nice package, but where are the results? When was the last time someone walked in and miraculously cleaned out a hospital ward.. or walked on water.. or raised the dead?
Or what happens when one gets sick, bankrupt, divorced.. broken down mentally..?
One has to explain why, providing one claims they have "God in a Box"..
On one hand, results are guaranteed.. on the other, no results are guaranteed..
"real life" is bad advertising. How many did loy slander and defame.. vic too? One guy who died- loy claimed the debil got him because he worked in such a "dark place" as Home Depo..
Again you fail to read what I said , what is written . what I said was
The basic commitment God requires of man is the same in every administration,it is believing. Believing is not a cause,it simply fulfills the conditions necessary for God to bring to pass His will.
1 Thessalonians 2:13 - For this cause also thank we God without ceasing,
because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us,
ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God,
which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
Vines - effectual "energeo" to put forth power, be operative, to work.also used as the effect produced in a man
When one receives the Word of God not as the word of men but as it is in truth ,the Word of God it puts forth power it opperates, produces effect, in who? ...... those that don't believe? NO, in those that believe. Believing fulfills the condition. If it worked automatically then it would contradict the free will that God gave us. Those that believe what God's word says get the effect produced.
Oldies, Jesus told his followers that the world hated Him, and if they followed Him, the world would hate them too. We are told we will have trials, tribulation and persecution in this world because we are followers of him.
Funny how VP always left that part out.
If you've never experienced any hardship and your life has been roses, maybe you may want to reconsider just who or what it is you've been following. Your idol VP will be of no help in times of trouble.
This devilish "law of believing" - this, hey, I can control my life, circumstances and God with my mind - is ludicrous.
Oldies, maybe you'd enjoy the new book "The Secret" that people are flocking after.
Its your beloved "law of believing" wrapped in a new package with a new name for the masses.
There truly is nothing new under the sun. It all comes around again but with a different name and package.
And do a google search on martyrs. I believe many died who were not called to do so as a martyr, but I too believe martyrs are told ahead of time they will be martyrs and the Holy Spirit works within them mightily to endure. You dismiss it out of hand. Read up.
While Oldies man is away, I'll play "devil's advocate" Yes wierwille would have said that all the apostles "Tripped out", that Stephen should have felt the stones like styrofoam and caused him no harm, and then beat the hell into the Jewish religious leaders, thus mudering those for antaganizing the Almighty and Jesus' followers; that Peter and Paul, James and others should still be alive today with no illness, a psedo-garden of Eden, as if Satan had been assasinated. Now, realise I don't subscribe to this anymore, but Law of believing makes God our personal genie whom we can put in a wall safe/bank vault/"lock-box" to manipulate or punish if He doesn't fulfill his promises. Are we so arrogant as to sue God for breach of contract and go to US Supreme Court because Yahweh failed to live up to his part of the bargain? I love OM, Mike, WD, and others but sorry, guys , you are wrong in this case. We will now receive the offering :D :lol: :B) .
The basic commitment God requires of man is the same in every administration,it is believing. Believing is not a cause,it simply fulfills the conditions necessary for God to bring to pass His will.
Commitment? Show me.
Think about what the bolded words (with emphasis on the italicized words) are really saying here.
...The basic commitment God requires of man is the same in every administration,it is believing. Believing is not a cause,it simply fulfills the conditions necessary for God to bring to pass His will....
In other words, vp saying in PFAL that the law of believing works for saint and sinner alike, portrays God as a puppet on a stick. After all, vp also said in the class God would have to change all the laws of the universe NOT to accommodate your believing…That vp thought of this “law” as big enough to circumvent the gospel message is obvious from his own account of the alleged healing of the man’s arm in India – vp emphasized the Indian man didn’t even need to believe in Jesus.
So then if an atheist uses something from Proverbs, such as " A soft answer turns away wrath", it won't work because there is no "believing" involved?
Come to think of it---- How does that factor in with Wierwille's statement that "believing" works for saint and sinner alike?
You see, in my Proverbs example, the person is not a "saint" nor are they operating "believing".
I'm just sayin'--------
A proverb and a promise are not the same thing. A soft answer does not always turn away wrath ,no matter who is speaking, that equation involves another person who also has freedom of will to respond as they wish speaking softly while in many cases will provoke a different response is not a guarantee
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Watered Garden
Just a note here, something else TWI kind of seemed to gloss over regarding death:
An exciting new revelation:
EVERYBODY DIES!
Oh, another exciting revelation:
DARN NEAR EVERYBODY GETS SICK AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER! SOME PEOPLE DIE FROM THEIR SICKNESS.
I don't know about God choosing people to suffer and die to His glory, but I will say this: VPW and TWI did an excellent job of oversimplifying God and the Bible. One of the most comforting things that ever happened to me post-TWI was when I was sitting in a church several years ago listening to a minister preach on the Trinity, anathema to TWI. A tiny, still, small voice whispered in my ear: "You don't have to understand EVERYTHING. Quit straining and enjoy life."
I was just dumfounded, but profoundly relieved.
a THIRD exciting revelation - this one about life on this planet:
dang HAPPENS!
Just a few thoughts on (and off) the matter.
WG
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brideofjc
I would refer to you Foxx's book of Martyrs - filled with accounts of people who would not back down from their statements of faith in the Lord Jesus and were willing rather to
die as a martyr rather than be coerced into giving up their faith. Just because it doesn't make sense to you does not negate the truth. If God was not being glorified, then why
was the Lord Jesus LOOKING on the whole scene even as Stephen looked up into heaven and saw his Lord standing there? Then why are the Christians in Sudan being martyred for their faith and what about China? The list goes on and on....all of them lack faith....? I think not!
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brideofjc
OM...It was the Lord Jesus who told Peter how he would die and therefore glorify God. Paul was beheaded....with all of that revelation that he received directly from the Lord Jesus and you would contend that he lacked faith??? Was God just sitting up there on HIS throne with HIS arms crossed saying, "My, oh my, if only they would just show a little more faith and I would just reach right down there and snatch them from the jaws of death! Tsk! Tsk! Whatever will I do?" VP was just plain wrong. The Lord Jesus clearly states that we must take up our cross and follow HIM and that means that we are to enter into the FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SUFFERINGS. Most christians like to skip right over that verse....and if they just can't get around it, they read about....fellowship....yeah, yeah, I can dig it....but SUFFERING...? Nope, I'm ONE SPOILED KID! THAT'S ME!
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cman
hmmm....let's see
vp said when you quit believing you die
quit believing what?
chapter and verse please
or even from the books he supposedly authored?
vp never said what they supposedly quit believing
we were to believe what he said and guess from there i reckon
stupider then stupid
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brideofjc
And yet even earthly fathers sometimes lose their children to auto accidents, drugs, alcohol, prison, fires, sickness, disease, natural catastrophes, etc. etc. I could have my child walking right next to me and the child still catch their foot on something and fall down, hurting their foot and/or leg. Does this make me an awful parent?
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excathedra
i'm so happy for you lindy
i love you
and your wife
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doojable
Hebrews 11:13 (NIV)
13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth.
14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own.
15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return.
16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
KJV (Same reference)
13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
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skyrider
oldies.....you hold to wierwille's explanation because, you say, it makes more sense than the others.
On a side-topic of 'death'......could you explain to me how wierwille died of a cancer-devil spirit? Did wierwille let his guard down and get possessed by this cancer spirit...........and then, it killed him?
Seems like I've asked this SEVERAL times......and no wierwille-defender wants to answer it.
:)
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Brushstroke
Hey there oldiesman. I was going to respond to this earlier, but I had my college algebra class to get to, so here I am.
Now, the "law of believing" essentially states that positive belief = positive outcomes in life, and that negative belief = negative outcomes in life.
With this, let me put this scenario into your head. Suppose things with Stephanie (my girlfriend who is involved with TWI) and I don't work out, but we wholeheartedly believed that they would. The law of believing, in this case, is negated. It's too black and white, the law of believing doesn't account for chance and probability in the world. If you really want to say that this law applies to something like physical death, then Peter and Paul, two of the greatest leaders of the early Church, one of them having directly been in contact with Christ Himself, would have had insufficient belief.
There are many problems with this, one of which I have already stated: the lack of probability.
1. Is TWI judging their faith? Christ did say, "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you" did He not?
2. This law turns God into a tyrant, or it turns Christian theism into a twisted form of deism. Let's say we have a guy named Bob, and Bob is having problems with his finances. He sincerely prays to God to help him, though he is still distraught with fear and doubt. And will God help him? Well...not if he doesn't rightly believe! But of course, Jesus (I know this is implying He's God, as I believe He is, but His deity is not the point here so if you wanna debate that, start another thread) certainly helped Peter when he fell into the water and cried out "Lord, save me!" (Matt. 14:22-33) and Jesus did not rebuke him and say "believe harder and I'll save you!" Did Christ not also say "Come unto Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest"? (Matt. 11:28) Will He reject those who are tired, depressed, laboring --- those He does not see fit as "rightly believing"?
Or, on the other hand, is God merely a passive bystander (deism) looking on at us as we believe that we will receive abundance in our lives? This is what the law of believing suggests. It suggests that our believing is what causes results, nothing of God's doing. Or is it to say that God is some sort of cosmic philanthropist who gives us whatever we desire, as long as we believe we'll get it? What happened to Christ's response to the rich man who ran to Him and said "Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me." (Mark 10:17-31) Some translations say he went away crying because he was so rich. God wants us to live for Him, and He'll provide what we need. You don't need that new car or that new stereo system, and you will be healed of your wounds with time, God's will that all creation be redeemed will not fail. If there are any holy people in the world, they're monks. They give up everything for complete devotion to God. The law of believing directly contradicts Jesus' own words. You're trusting in your faith, not God.
3. The law of believing is unnecessary. You can believe positively or negatively if you want, there is no need of a "law" regarding which you believe. And besides, making it into a law puts too much definition on life, which as we all know is entirely random. God sends rain on the just and the unjust. Bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people, and vice versa. Rain can be a good harvest, or it can be a depressing day inside your house. This law if it really exists, especially when comparing it to the law of gravity, makes "good" and "bad" definable. Something could be good to one person, it could be a positive outcome, and it could be bad, a negative outcome, to another person. Who decides what is positive and negative? God? But wait, I thought it was the believer who operates the law? Does this imply that the believer will also interpret what is good and what is bad in his life? Or just interpret everything as good or everything as bad?
There are so many things wrong with this law of believing. And besides, what's the fun in having this mortal existence be positive all the time? Why not try to mix it up a bit? I find a certain strange goodness in all my artwork, even that which is depressing. It makes me kind of sad, and so what if it does? In this fallen world, you cannot have faith and gladness without doubt and fear.
So enough of my rambling (but I do hope you read that). Why were Peter and Paul killed for their faith? It's a fallen world, s**t happens. God wants us to be happy and prosperous, yes, but He also lets these bad things happen for the strengthening of our faith. To die for your faith truly is an honor, it shows your devotion. They were happy and prosperous! Not in wealth, but in faith. Not saying death is good, but they're alive in heaven with all the other saints and angels, I assure you.
~Phil
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penguin
Amen! I never realized how much pressure I was putting on myself AND the people I coordinated by teaching the law of believing.
NOW I have genuine peace and prefer to "trust God" in every situation. He knows what is best, He is my refuge and rock AND He's got me covered! I know where my help is coming from but I don't have to figure out everything and believe in my ability to believe.
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WhiteDove
1 Thessalonians 2:13 - For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
The basic commitment God requires of man is the same in every administration,it is believing. Believing is not a cause,it simply fulfills the conditions necessary for God to bring to pass His will.
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cman
you are making two very different statements
and limiting everything to one verse
that's no deal
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Oakspear
1. God allows bad things to happen because you didn't believe
2. God causes bad things to happen because it's part of his plan
3. God allows bad things to happen because it's part of his plan
4. Bad things just happen and God intervenes sometimes and sometimes he doesn't.
God doesn't really come across very well in any of those scenarios
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cman
Sounds just like people there Oaks!
lol....:)
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waysider
KJV (King James Version)
"---the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe."
Is the word "also" supposed to be in that verse? I don't know.
Maybe somebody who is versed in these types of intricacies can chime in here.
If it is, though, it would mean that the word of God works in those who don't believe, too.
Kinda like an additional, descriptive qualifier.
(ie: "---the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you who live in New Jersey.")
That really makes sense when you think about it.
Consider this. ----"A soft answer turns away wrath."
Does believing have anything to do with whether or not that advise works?
--------------------------------------------
NWMV (New Way Ministry Version)
"---the word of God, which effectually worketh if/because you believe."
Doesn't seem to carry the same meaning in my opinion.
Seems to take the pressure off God and put it on YOUR shoulders.
But what do I know?
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Ham
I don't think it actually "makes more sense". Perhaps it is more plalatable than other beliefs.
I think of vic's theology more as spiritually immature, sugar coated nonsense which goes down a tad easier than other perhaps more down to earth theologies. Providing one is young, healthy, and employed.
But it causes more problems than it seems to solve.
If you have "God in a Box", and things go really wrong, then there are more holes in the dyke than one has fingers to plug them..
vic's one size fits all positive informercial has a few problems. What happens when people fail to get the positive results that one asserts they can have. It appears to be a nice package, but where are the results? When was the last time someone walked in and miraculously cleaned out a hospital ward.. or walked on water.. or raised the dead?
Or what happens when one gets sick, bankrupt, divorced.. broken down mentally..?
One has to explain why, providing one claims they have "God in a Box"..
On one hand, results are guaranteed.. on the other, no results are guaranteed..
"real life" is bad advertising. How many did loy slander and defame.. vic too? One guy who died- loy claimed the debil got him because he worked in such a "dark place" as Home Depo..
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WhiteDove
Again you fail to read what I said , what is written . what I said was
The basic commitment God requires of man is the same in every administration,it is believing. Believing is not a cause,it simply fulfills the conditions necessary for God to bring to pass His will.
1 Thessalonians 2:13 - For this cause also thank we God without ceasing,
because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us,
ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God,
which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
Vines - effectual "energeo" to put forth power, be operative, to work.also used as the effect produced in a man
When one receives the Word of God not as the word of men but as it is in truth ,the Word of God it puts forth power it opperates, produces effect, in who? ...... those that don't believe? NO, in those that believe. Believing fulfills the condition. If it worked automatically then it would contradict the free will that God gave us. Those that believe what God's word says get the effect produced.
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cman
Obviously, at least to me, the words in that verse mean something different to me then to you.
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Sunesis
Oldies, Jesus told his followers that the world hated Him, and if they followed Him, the world would hate them too. We are told we will have trials, tribulation and persecution in this world because we are followers of him.
Funny how VP always left that part out.
If you've never experienced any hardship and your life has been roses, maybe you may want to reconsider just who or what it is you've been following. Your idol VP will be of no help in times of trouble.
This devilish "law of believing" - this, hey, I can control my life, circumstances and God with my mind - is ludicrous.
Oldies, maybe you'd enjoy the new book "The Secret" that people are flocking after.
Its your beloved "law of believing" wrapped in a new package with a new name for the masses.
There truly is nothing new under the sun. It all comes around again but with a different name and package.
And do a google search on martyrs. I believe many died who were not called to do so as a martyr, but I too believe martyrs are told ahead of time they will be martyrs and the Holy Spirit works within them mightily to endure. You dismiss it out of hand. Read up.
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waysider
So then if an atheist uses something from Proverbs, such as " A soft answer turns away wrath", it won't work because there is no "believing" involved?
Come to think of it---- How does that factor in with Wierwille's statement that "believing" works for saint and sinner alike?
You see, in my Proverbs example, the person is not a "saint" nor are they operating "believing".
I'm just sayin'--------
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
While Oldies man is away, I'll play "devil's advocate"
Yes wierwille would have said that all the apostles "Tripped out", that Stephen should have felt the stones like styrofoam and caused him no harm, and then beat the hell into the Jewish religious leaders, thus mudering those for antaganizing the Almighty and Jesus' followers; that Peter and Paul, James and others should still be alive today with no illness, a psedo-garden of Eden, as if Satan had been assasinated. Now, realise I don't subscribe to this anymore, but Law of believing makes God our personal genie whom we can put in a wall safe/bank vault/"lock-box" to manipulate or punish if He doesn't fulfill his promises. Are we so arrogant as to sue God for breach of contract and go to US Supreme Court because Yahweh failed to live up to his part of the bargain? I love OM, Mike, WD, and others but sorry, guys , you are wrong in this case. We will now receive the offering :D :lol: :B) 
.
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doojable
Commitment? Show me.
Think about what the bolded words (with emphasis on the italicized words) are really saying here.
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T-Bone
In other words, vp saying in PFAL that the law of believing works for saint and sinner alike, portrays God as a puppet on a stick. After all, vp also said in the class God would have to change all the laws of the universe NOT to accommodate your believing…That vp thought of this “law” as big enough to circumvent the gospel message is obvious from his own account of the alleged healing of the man’s arm in India – vp emphasized the Indian man didn’t even need to believe in Jesus.
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WhiteDove
A proverb and a promise are not the same thing. A soft answer does not always turn away wrath ,no matter who is speaking, that equation involves another person who also has freedom of will to respond as they wish speaking softly while in many cases will provoke a different response is not a guarantee
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