Brushstroke(calling you that because Oldiesman's real name is also Phil), According to Power For Abundant Living and the revision that TWi and it's splinter groups use, the Koinne greek word Gnosis/ginosko means spiritual wisdom that all "true Christians" are required to have to battle Satan or the devil will literally murder all humanity, because Adam and Eve transferred authority God had given them to Lucifer when they ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, So Satan is master and owner of the universe, and God isn't going to sue Satan nor humanity for breaking/breaching contract law by "assasinating/murdering " the Devil.
So God created another perfect human being(sperm and ova[not Mary's]) to bring about Jesus the Messiah/Christ, who can never be God in human flesh. Also, TWI thought Lewis spoke $#*! and didn't understand "true" Christianity(mentally insane or devil/demon possesed). Of course Wierwille and Martindale were stupid. VPW should have known better but he ended up rejecting his seminary theological training calling it Satanic crap, throwing away those books to be burned in local incinerator/buried as trash and garbage(Good riddance, he would have said) Check out the wikipedia article on him. You may also want to check out Pastor John Juddes, a Lutheran Church Missouri Synod pastor, who has written several articles on The Way International. His congregation is Messiah Lutheran in CA.
For those still deeply rooted in "the Law of Believing," may I suggest a review of Ecclesiastes? Here are some excerpts:
Ecclesiastes 8:14
There is a vanity which is done upon the earth; that there be just men, unto whom it happeneth according to the work of the wicked; again, there be wicked men, to whom it happeneth according to the work of the righteous: I said that this also is vanity
(In other words, you don't always get what you work towards - work towards presumably believing to attain. And the wicked get better than they believe for)
Ecc 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
(Those who have worked hard, trained, and acquired skills and abilities don't always get the benefit. Is not the acquisition and application of skills part of "believing"? - but chance overrides that!)
If the Law of Believing works for saint and sinner alike - why are there so many people in prison? Presumably most of those who commit crimes do so usually in the belief they will get away with it.
Indeed, fraudsters go to most elaborate ends to disguise what they are up to, setting up fake companies and all sorts. And no mugger would attack under the watchful eye of a police officer.
(Oops, edited because seems to have posted wording twice)
I have to admit, one of the big lures to TWI for me was that they seemed to be able to explain that nagging discrepancy between an all-knowing/all-loving God and all the pain and suffering experienced in the world today. By explaining the need for free-will in salvation, they both 'excused' God's allowance of Satan's uprising and fall (and the resulting evil in the world today) and 'defended' their belief that Jesus Christ cannot be part of a trinity.
In order for a person's decision to love and serve God to be genuine, they cannot be forced into it; it must be a choice. Even the angels had a choice.
In order for Jesus' sacrifice to be a valid payment for all of our sins he also had to do it by free will choice, which he really couldn't have done if he was already destined to do it as part of a god-head... he had to be a man with all the potential for getting it wrong, in order to truly get it right.
So God is all-knowing and all-loving, but had to allow for the choice to be made. Satan chose badly. All suffering and evil in this world is a direct result of his choice and the fallout of that choice. So, anything bad that happens in the world can be blamed on Satan, either because people have willfully turned away from God's ways or done it through ignorance. Conversely, believing in God, with a thorough knowledge of God's Word, allows you to tap into God's protection and healing from all that Satan has done. You are in this world, but not of this world. You are God's kid and that comes with special rights and priveleges.
Sounds good doesn't it?
It sure sounded good to me!!
But do you see the hook?
With this belief system firmly in place, we can look at any situation that comes up in the world and know WHY. It's simple: someone is doing God's will and someone isn't doing God's will. But, how do we know who is who and which is which? How do we avoid falling into Satan's traps which he lays daily to subtlely ensnare the unwatchful? (Because the secret to his success is the secrecy of his moves, and he is very good at making the counterfeit mirror the genuine to trick people.) So how do we discern truth from error? How do we tap into that special protection and power God has willed to His children? By daily making the free-will choice of Good over Evil (no, it's even more subtle than that, we must make the choice of Best over Good!!) How do we know how to make that choice? We go to the Bible, of course... it is the complete manual on how to live a Christian life. But there are so many interpretations, how do we understand the real meaning of the Bible? By taking twi classes and attending twi fellowships, of course! And once we are doing that we are set, right? We have knowledge and we know how to talk to God, right? No, because one of Satan's "fronts" by which he tricks people is SELF... you think you are tapped into God but you can still easily be led astray. So check your thinking with leadership because there is safetly in a multitude of counselors!! After all, twi leaders study what the founder taught, and the founder dug into the Word cover to cover, looked at the Greek and Hebrew, and studied the texts and compared passages and studied other men's work to come up with the truth... We then, as followers, study the Word in order to come to the same conclusions our twi founder came to (that's why it's called RE-search). And if you don't come to the same conclusion, well... you just aren't spiritually mature enough to see it yet, or maybe you are really just a spiritual hitch-hiker, not a true believer at all, in fact maybe you should be booted out of the group to protect the rest of the followers from your negative, slothful, unbelieving influence...
Frankly, even outside of the messed up twi method of practice, the biggest pitfall of this belief system is that it takes the most complex, nuanced problems and breaks them down into a simple: "This person is right" and "That person is wrong" mentality. Not only does this set the table for across-the-board policies and blanket finger-pointing, which almost always causes more harm than good, but I have found that most problems in life are just not that simple... they are a mixed-up mess of some right, some wrong, and some "I don't know" which cannot be resolved by blanket statements of good and evil.
From the twi viewpoint ... in the words of Dr. Wierwille "find out what's available from God's Word..." The "law of believing" was taught in the context of believing to receive the written promises of God in the bible. For example, does the bible say is it available for someone to win lotto? No. So praying/believing to win lotto would be out of bounds and wouldn't work.
(snip)
The Blue Book, page 29.
"What We Believe = What We are
The law of believing is dynamically powerful,
yet so simple. The law, simply stated, is that
what we believe for or expect, we get.
This applies in every realm: physical, mental,
material, spiritual. Thus it is this law which
basically controls the abundant life. Only if
we believe and expect abundance will we ever
realize abundance in our lives.
'The Synchronized Life' shows that our lives are
molded by our believing-both by positive and
negative believing. This law is further
explained and proved in 'The Law of Believing'
so that we will become aware of our own
thinking and then be able to control our
thinking so as to manifest the abundant life
which is promised in God's Word."
says the following on the subject of
believing:
(page 28) "WHAT WE BELIEVE EQUALS WHAT WE ARE"
(pg-29) "What We Believe = What We are
The law of believing is dynamically powerful,
yet so simple. The law, simply stated, is that
what we believe for or expect, we get.
This applies in every realm: physical, mental,
material, spiritual. Thus it is this law which
basically controls the abundant life. Only if
we believe and expect abundance will we ever
realize abundance in our lives.
'The Synchronized Life' shows that our lives are
molded by our believing-both by positive and
negative believing. This law is further
explained and proved in 'The Law of Believing'
so that we will become aware of our own
thinking and then be able to control our
thinking so as to manifest the abundant life
which is promised in God's Word."
-----------------------------------======
That was the entire contents of both pages.
except for the last 2 words of the second page,
God doesn't enter the picture.
(page 31) "Chapter Four.
The Synchronized Life
Whatever a person believes is directly reflected
in what he confesses. What a person confesses in
his innermost being is what he brings into
manifestation in his life. If a person goes
through life confessing that he has great need,
he will definitely have great need. If he
confesses sickness, he will continue to be sick
and afflicted because of the law that what one
believes in the depth of his soul absolutely
appears in his life.
The "synchronized life" is simply stated by this
formula: confession of belief yields receipt of
confession."
pg-43 and 44. "The law of believing brings
phenomenal results to all those who apply and
practice the principles.
You may believe rightly or wrongly. Believing
works both ways, and you bring to yourself
whatever you believe."
pg-44."Fear, worry and anxiety are types of
believing. If you worry, have fear and are
anxious you will receive the fruit of your
negative believing which is defeat.
The law of believing works equally effectively
for both the sinner and the saint..."
pg-8. "How have you mentally pictured yourself
for the past week, month, year, ten years? The
picture that you carry of yourself with
clearness and with concern is what you are.
This law works for positive and negative
thinking alike."
pg-6 and 7.
"A camera offers an appropriate analogy of the
means by which you can get results to prayer and
find release from your prisons. If you want an
answer to prayer, first get your object in mind.
You select what you want in your picture. This
is step one: you're CLEAR on what you want.
Secondly, you use the range finder and focus
the subject properly. Then consider the length
of exposure of the picture so that all factors
may work together for a perfect picture. After
all this, shoot the picture.
When you are focused on the picture of what you
want, keep your mind stayed on it. If you
allow something else to come in and take
precedence over that picture you will get a
blurred answer to prayer; you will not get the
results you desire; you will not get release
from the prison which is encasing you.
If you want to get rid of something today, you
must focus, dwell on what you want. It is
the introduction of light that dispels darkness,
not the dwelling on the darkness that introduces
light. If you want more business, better
relations between employer and employee or a better job,
get your desire in mind, focus on it
and then determine the exposure time needed to
accomplish the task.
If you want to get out of your prisons today,
immediately change your thinking about your
situation: change your subject of focus. As you
change your thinking, you will draw a mental
pattern for the things you DO want in your life,
which in turn will dispel and root out all those
things you do not want."
The Orange Book:
page 32.
"The law of believing is the greatest law in the
Word of God. As a matter of fact, it is not only
the greatest law in The Word, it is the greatest
law in the whole world. Believing works for
saint and sinner alike."
page 35.
(after referencing Mark 11:23)
"This is the great law in the Word of God.
'Whosoever...' It does not say Christian or
non-Christian; whosoever means whosoever.
"Whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be
thou removes, and...cast into the sea and shall
not doubt...but shall believe that those things
which he saith shall come to pass; he shall
have whatsoever he saith.' In other words, say
it, believe it, and it will come to pass."
"The law of believing is the greatest law in
the Word of God: whosoever says it, whosoever
believes, will act and receive."
-------------------------------------------
page 38."If one is afraid of a disease, he will manifest
that disease because the law is that what one
believes (in this case, what one believes
negatively), he is going to receive."
his law of negative and positive believing works
for both Christian and non-Christian. When we
believe, we receive the results of our believing
regardless of who or what we are."
Mike,
the blue book "the Bible Tells Me So"
says the following on the subject of
believing:
(page 28) "WHAT WE BELIEVE EQUALS WHAT WE ARE"
(pg-29) "What We Believe = What We are
The law of believing is dynamically powerful,
yet so simple. The law, simply stated, is that
what we believe for or expect, we get.
This applies in every realm: physical, mental,
material, spiritual. Thus it is this law which
basically controls the abundant life. Only if
we believe and expect abundance will we ever
realize abundance in our lives.
'The Synchronized Life' shows that our lives are
molded by our believing-both by positive and
negative believing. This law is further
explained and proved in 'The Law of Believing'
so that we will become aware of our own
thinking and then be able to control our
thinking so as to manifest the abundant life
which is promised in God's Word."
-----------------------------------======
That was the entire contents of both pages.
except for the last 2 words of the second page,
God doesn't enter the picture.]
(page 31) "Chapter Four.
The Synchronized Life
Whatever a person believes is directly reflected
in what he confesses. What a person confesses in
his innermost being is what he brings into
manifestation in his life. If a person goes
through life confessing that he has great need,
he will definitely have great need. If he
confesses sickness, he will continue to be sick
and afflicted because of the law that what one
believes in the depth of his soul absolutely
appears in his life.
The "synchronized life" is simply stated by this
formula: confession of belief yields receipt of
confession."
----------------------------------------------
pg-43 and 44. "The law of believing brings
phenomenal results to all those who apply and
practice the principles.
You may believe rightly or wrongly. Believing
works both ways, and you bring to yourself
whatever you believe."
pg-44."Fear, worry and anxiety are types of
believing. If you worry, have fear and are
anxious you will receive the fruit of your
negative believing which is defeat.
The law of believing works equally effectively
for both the sinner and the saint..."
Chapter One, "Release From Your Prisons".
pg-8. "How have you mentally pictured yourself
for the past week, month, year, ten years? The
picture that you carry of yourself with
clearness and with concern is what you are.
This law works for positive and negative
thinking alike."
pg-6 and 7.
"A camera offers an appropriate analogy of the
means by which you can get results to prayer and
find release from your prisons. If you want an
answer to prayer, first get your object in mind.
You select what you want in your picture. This
is step one: youre CLEAR on what you want.
Secondly, you use the range finder and focus
the subject properly. Then consider the length
of exposure of the picture so that all factors
may work together for a perfect picture. After
all this, shoot the picture.
When you are focused on the picture of what you
want, keep your mind stayted on it. If you
allow something else to come in and take
precedence over that picture you will get a
blurred answer to prayer; you will not get the
results you desire; you will not get release
from the prison which is encasing you.
If you want to get rid of something today, you
must focus, dwell on what you want. It is
the introduction of light that dispels darkness,
not the dwelling on the darkness that introduces
light. If you want more business, better
relations between employer and employee or a better job,
get your desire in mind, focus on it
and then determine the exposure time needed to
accomplish the task.
If you want to get out of your prisons today,
immediately change your thinking about your
situation: change your subject of focus. As you
change your thinking, you will draw a mental
pattern for the things you DO want in your life,
which in turn will dispel and root out all those
things you do not want."
-------------------------------------------
The orange book ALSO addresses the subject of
believing.
page 32.
"The law of believing is the greatest law in the
Word of God. As a matter of fact, it is not only
the greatest law in The Word, it is the greatest
law in the whole world. Believing works for
saint and sinner alike."
page 35.
(after referencing Mark 11:23)
"This is the great law in the Word of God.
'Whosoever...' It does not say Christian or
non-Christian; whosoever means whosoever.
"Whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be
thou removes, and...cast into the sea and shall
not doubt...but shall believe that those things
which he saith shall come to pass; he shall
have whatsoever he saith.' In other words, say
it, believe it, and it will come to pass."
"The law of believing is the greatest law in
the Word of God: whosoever says it, whosoever
believes, will act and receive."
-------------------------------------------
page 38.
"If one is afraid of a disease, he will manifest
that disease because the law is that what one
believes (in this case, what one believes
negatively), he is going to receive."
his law of negative and positive believing works
for both Christian and non-Christian. When we
believe, we receive the results of our believing
regardless of who or what we are."
page 42-44 cover the story of the woman whose
fear "killed her son".
page 44.
"What one fears will surely come to pass. It is
a law. Have you ever heard about people who set
the time of their death? When somebody says
'Well, this time next year I will not be here,"
if you are a betting man, bet your money, you
are going to win. If a person makes up his mind
that this time next year he is going to be
dead, God would have to change the laws of the
universe for the person not to be accomodated."
[Missing from the book, but present in the taped class (where it's harder to evaluate something) is this
little gem. A woman supposedly operated these principles to get red drapes in her new apartment.]
I have to admit, one of the big lures to TWI for me was that they seemed to be able to explain that nagging discrepancy between an all-knowing/all-loving God and all the pain and suffering experienced in the world today. By explaining the need for free-will in salvation, they both 'excused' God's allowance of Satan's uprising and fall (and the resulting evil in the world today) and 'defended' their belief that Jesus Christ cannot be part of a trinity.
In order for a person's decision to love and serve God to be genuine, they cannot be forced into it; it must be a choice. Even the angels had a choice.
In order for Jesus' sacrifice to be a valid payment for all of our sins he also had to do it by free will choice, which he really couldn't have done if he was already destined to do it as part of a god-head... he had to be a man with all the potential for getting it wrong, in order to truly get it right.
So God is all-knowing and all-loving, but had to allow for the choice to be made. Satan chose badly. All suffering and evil in this world is a direct result of his choice and the fallout of that choice. So, anything bad that happens in the world can be blamed on Satan, either because people have willfully turned away from God's ways or done it through ignorance. Conversely, believing in God, with a thorough knowledge of God's Word, allows you to tap into God's protection and healing from all that Satan has done. You are in this world, but not of this world. You are God's kid and that comes with special rights and priveleges.
Sounds good doesn't it?
It sure sounded good to me!!
But do you see the hook?
With this belief system firmly in place, we can look at any situation that comes up in the world and know WHY. It's simple: someone is doing God's will and someone isn't doing God's will. But, how do we know who is who and which is which? How do we avoid falling into Satan's traps which he lays daily to subtlely ensnare the unwatchful? (Because the secret to his success is the secrecy of his moves, and he is very good at making the counterfeit mirror the genuine to trick people.) So how do we discern truth from error? How do we tap into that special protection and power God has willed to His children? By daily making the free-will choice of Good over Evil (no, it's even more subtle than that, we must make the choice of Best over Good!!) How do we know how to make that choice? We go to the Bible, of course... it is the complete manual on how to live a Christian life. But there are so many interpretations, how do we understand the real meaning of the Bible? By taking twi classes and attending twi fellowships, of course! And once we are doing that we are set, right? We have knowledge and we know how to talk to God, right? No, because one of Satan's "fronts" by which he tricks people is SELF... you think you are tapped into God but you can still easily be led astray. So check your thinking with leadership because there is safetly in a multitude of counselors!! After all, twi leaders study what the founder taught, and the founder dug into the Word cover to cover, looked at the Greek and Hebrew, and studied the texts and compared passages and studied other men's work to come up with the truth... We then, as followers, study the Word in order to come to the same conclusions our twi founder came to (that's why it's called RE-search). And if you don't come to the same conclusion, well... you just aren't spiritually mature enough to see it yet, or maybe you are really just a spiritual hitch-hiker, not a true believer at all, in fact maybe you should be booted out of the group to protect the rest of the followers from your negative, slothful, unbelieving influence...
Frankly, even outside of the messed up twi method of practice, the biggest pitfall of this belief system is that it takes the most complex, nuanced problems and breaks them down into a simple: "This person is right" and "That person is wrong" mentality. Not only does this set the table for across-the-board policies and blanket finger-pointing, which almost always causes more harm than good, but I have found that most problems in life are just not that simple... they are a mixed-up mess of some right, some wrong, and some "I don't know" which cannot be resolved by blanket statements of good and evil.
When we were young, and life-and answers-were simple,
it was a great comfort to have all the answers, and be able to rattle off answers to solve any problem.
twi leaders can rattle off solutions to foreign policy problems, the budgets of countries.....
the rest of us could tell EVERYONE how to fix all the problems in their lives- quickly.
Life is rarely as simple as twi-and all harmful religions- make it.
God has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness through the knowledge of Him ... that knowledge is in the word of God. Doesn't mean we don't receive knowledge and guidance from the holy spirit, but what is already written God expects us to know and believe.
I don't entirely agree.
Part of the wierwillian theology suggests that we, as mortals, can take the fragments of truth we do have, and by a mathematical and scientificly precise method, put it in a pot.. add the right keys and ingredients, and come up with THE truth.
I think it puts too much of a burden on the seeker..
The salesman has to explain "apparent" bible contradictions.. look how he tortured the gospels to come up with the supposed correct numbers of the denials of peter.. and the two fig trees, the two men in Gadarenes.. etc., etc..
it looks so "scholarly".. so precise..
but I think this kind of theology takes ones eyes off the REAL issue. "Where are the results?"
I was given me the promise that if I 'believe', I can do the works of Jesus, raise the dead, heal the sick, cast out devils, miraculously multiply food, make wine out of water, etc., etc. Now it gets switched. I end up with a scholarly approach to life that seems only to lead down into an empty hole. More classes, more meetings.. more money. No documentable results. Same for anyone else I knew who tried it.
It's all about sales.. make a promise, a REAL REAL BIG, OUTRAGEOUS promise. Then don't sell the promise. Sell the person the alleged method to acquire the promise.
And it's almost never about what the salesman can do with it. It's about YOU- "how'd you like to raise the dead, heal people.. etc. etc..."
"OK sucker, when's the last time YOU raised the dead?"
:)
It's not that I don't believe there is a God.. I just don't think you can sell Him.
Part of the wierwillian theology suggests that we, as mortals, can take the fragments of truth we do have, and by a mathematical and scientificly precise method, put it in a pot.. add the right keys and ingredients, and come up with THE truth.
I think it puts too much of a burden on the seeker..
The salesman has to explain "apparent" bible contradictions.. look how he tortured the gospels to come up with the supposed correct numbers of the denials of peter.. and the two fig trees, the two men in Gadarenes.. etc., etc..
it looks so "scholarly".. so precise..
but I think this kind of theology takes ones eyes off the REAL issue. "Where are the results?"
I was given me the promise that if I 'believe', I can do the works of Jesus, raise the dead, heal the sick, cast out devils, miraculously multiply food, make wine out of water, etc., etc. Now it gets switched. I end up with a scholarly approach to life that seems only to lead down into an empty hole. More classes, more meetings.. more money. No documentable results. Same for anyone else I knew who tried it.
It's all about sales.. make a promise, a REAL REAL BIG, OUTRAGEOUS promise. Then don't sell the promise. Sell the person the alleged method to acquire the promise.
And it's almost never about what the salesman can do with it. It's about YOU- "how'd you like to raise the dead, heal people.. etc. etc..."
"OK sucker, when's the last time YOU raised the dead?"
:)
It's not that I don't believe there is a God.. I just don't think you can sell Him.
I agree, Ham. And I'd like to add something. Sure, you may understand all the things in the world about the Bible, Christianity, Christian history, and other religions. And you may be able to cast out demons, heal the sick, raise the dead, increase your wealth, speak in tongues, etc. But if you want to be a Christian and have all this, but don't have a genuine love and humility, what good does any of it do you? (1 Cor. 12:27-13:13)
Reminds me of an old story, very famous in Greece, that my priest mentioned in one of his homilies.
There were two men on an island, off the coast of Cyprus. They knew nothing about Christ except what they had been told by their parents long ago, which wasn't much at all, but they kept these things they had been taught and believed in Him, and they really believed in Him. They prayed everyday, thanking God for what little they had on this small island. Now, a bishop on a ship along with a ton of other passengers passed by this island, and he saw them, and the two men desperately wanted to get on this ship and off the island. To his shock and astonishment, the two men were actually running on the water toward the ship. Many believe it was a product of their faith, some kind of spiritual gift.
One doesn't need to have some sort of special knowledge or to understand complex theology, or to give their money to someone. Ultimately, all one needs to do is love God and love others. That was Christ's most important commandment.
Brushstroke,
I have to admit, one of the big lures to TWI for me was that they seemed to be able to explain that nagging discrepancy between an all-knowing/all-loving God and all the pain and suffering experienced in the world today. By explaining the need for free-will in salvation, they both 'excused' God's allowance of Satan's uprising and fall (and the resulting evil in the world today) and 'defended' their belief that Jesus Christ cannot be part of a trinity.
In order for a person's decision to love and serve God to be genuine, they cannot be forced into it; it must be a choice. Even the angels had a choice.
In order for Jesus' sacrifice to be a valid payment for all of our sins he also had to do it by free will choice, which he really couldn't have done if he was already destined to do it as part of a god-head... he had to be a man with all the potential for getting it wrong, in order to truly get it right.
So God is all-knowing and all-loving, but had to allow for the choice to be made. Satan chose badly. All suffering and evil in this world is a direct result of his choice and the fallout of that choice. So, anything bad that happens in the world can be blamed on Satan, either because people have willfully turned away from God's ways or done it through ignorance. Conversely, believing in God, with a thorough knowledge of God's Word, allows you to tap into God's protection and healing from all that Satan has done. You are in this world, but not of this world. You are God's kid and that comes with special rights and priveleges.
Sounds good doesn't it?
It sure sounded good to me!!
But do you see the hook?
Oh, I can definitely see how that would be appealing to most people. Believing in God and receiving His power (that you have a right to!) protects you from Satan...hah, sure, why not? I'd love to be protected all my life. But wait, isn't the reason Satan was kicked out of heaven because he wanted God's power?
With this belief system firmly in place, we can look at any situation that comes up in the world and know WHY. It's simple: someone is doing God's will and someone isn't doing God's will. But, how do we know who is who and which is which? How do we avoid falling into Satan's traps which he lays daily to subtlely ensnare the unwatchful? (Because the secret to his success is the secrecy of his moves, and he is very good at making the counterfeit mirror the genuine to trick people.) So how do we discern truth from error? How do we tap into that special protection and power God has willed to His children? By daily making the free-will choice of Good over Evil (no, it's even more subtle than that, we must make the choice of Best over Good!!) How do we know how to make that choice? We go to the Bible, of course... it is the complete manual on how to live a Christian life. But there are so many interpretations, how do we understand the real meaning of the Bible? By taking twi classes and attending twi fellowships, of course! And once we are doing that we are set, right? We have knowledge and we know how to talk to God, right? No, because one of Satan's "fronts" by which he tricks people is SELF... you think you are tapped into God but you can still easily be led astray. So check your thinking with leadership because there is safetly in a multitude of counselors!! After all, twi leaders study what the founder taught, and the founder dug into the Word cover to cover, looked at the Greek and Hebrew, and studied the texts and compared passages and studied other men's work to come up with the truth... We then, as followers, study the Word in order to come to the same conclusions our twi founder came to (that's why it's called RE-search). And if you don't come to the same conclusion, well... you just aren't spiritually mature enough to see it yet, or maybe you are really just a spiritual hitch-hiker, not a true believer at all, in fact maybe you should be booted out of the group to protect the rest of the followers from your negative, slothful, unbelieving influence...
Frankly, even outside of the messed up twi method of practice, the biggest pitfall of this belief system is that it takes the most complex, nuanced problems and breaks them down into a simple: "This person is right" and "That person is wrong" mentality. Not only does this set the table for across-the-board policies and blanket finger-pointing, which almost always causes more harm than good, but I have found that most problems in life are just not that simple... they are a mixed-up mess of some right, some wrong, and some "I don't know" which cannot be resolved by blanket statements of good and evil.
The bolded portion, is what I think is most damaging. The mindset that God's power is ours...pride in thinking that they had attained some sort of special knowledge or in thinking that they're so great like the Gnostics, or like the Pharisees.
And no, most problems in life are not so simple as "This person is right" and "That person is wrong." That kind of thinking is just naive.
... Sure, you may understand all the things in the world about the Bible, Christianity, Christian history, and other religions. And you may be able to cast out demons, heal the sick, raise the dead, increase your wealth, speak in tongues, etc. But if you want to be a Christian and have all this, but don't have a genuine love and humility, what good does any of it do you? (1 Cor. 12:27-13:13)
...
One doesn't need to have some sort of special knowledge or to understand complex theology, or to give their money to someone. Ultimately, all one needs to do is love God and love others. That was Christ's most important commandment.
Hi Phil,
I agree in part. Yes, Christ's commandment is to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. BTW, that was taught in twi in the first 30 minutes or so in the Power for Abundant Living class as "The First and Great Commandment".
What I think we may disagree on is in the importance of having knowledge of his will from the bible ... I don't know if you call that "special knowledge", ... but simply understand the importance of knowledge of God's will from the bible. Your statement "we shouldn't ever think we know his will" seems to run counter to that. I think this is one of the biggie's of The Way and therefore you may have strong disagreement with your girlfriend on this.
Oh, I can definitely see how that would be appealing to most people. Believing in God and receiving His power (that you have a right to!) protects you from Satan...hah, sure, why not? I'd love to be protected all my life. But wait, isn't the reason Satan was kicked out of heaven because he wanted God's power?
I don't think so. As I understand it, Lucifer already was powerful as one of God's arch-angels ... but that wasn't enough for him, what he wanted was to exalt his throne ABOVE God. Essentially wanted to be God.
But that's far different than believers in Christ wanting to have God's power working in their life:
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Eph 1:19 And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
1Th 2:13 ¶ For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received [it] not [as] the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
Jesus said he who believeth on me "the works that I do shall he do also...".
Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
So I don't think its about wanting to be God or wanting God's power to exalt one-self for some selfish purpose ...
I never thought that about Way people, but I guess you'll have to make up your own mind.
Conversely, I think it's all about wanting to do God's will, that is written in God's Word, because one loves God...
1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
I agree in part. Yes, Christ's commandment is to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. BTW, that was taught in twi in the first 30 minutes or so in the Power for Abundant Living class as "The First and Great Commandment".
What I think we may disagree on is in the importance of having knowledge of his will from the bible ... I don't know if you call that "special knowledge", ... but simply understand the importance of knowledge of God's will from the bible. Your statement "we shouldn't ever think we know his will" seems to run counter to that. I think this is one of the biggie's of The Way and therefore you may have strong disagreement with your girlfriend on this.
You're right oldies, that's definitely a strong point of contention between she and I. I'm starting to think that maybe the difference is in the mindset. In Eastern Christianity, there is a strong emphasis on mystery. To say that we know what God wills for our lives, to us Orthodox, is like saying that I know God like the palm of my hand, which obviously isn't true. It's just prideful and it is not a very good example of humility. This is not to say that we can do nothing about our salvation, but the mindset of the Church is that Christianity is a spiritual struggle, it is a path in which we are to take up our cross daily and commit our lives to Christ, and submit to Him in humility, with all of our joy coming from God alone. It is a process, a spritual journey. In Orthodox and Catholic theology, salvation is not something that we already have as many Protestants believe. We are saved (Eph. 2:5-8), yes, but we are also being saved and are working out our salvation with fear and trembling (2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and we will be saved (Rom. 5:9-10), with hopeful confidence in what is to come (2 Tim. 2:11-13, James 5:7-12). I think an accurate statement would be that, for us, salvation is itself the life that we have in Christ.
I don't think so. As I understand it, Lucifer already was powerful as one of God's arch-angels ... but that wasn't enough for him, what he wanted was to exalt his throne ABOVE God. Essentially wanted to be God.
That wasn't my point oldies. My point was about the pride in the idea that we can understand God and have His power. Yes, we can know God as He reveals Himself to all humans and He is a personal being, He loves us. We have knowledge of Him according to what He has revealed about Himself, but other than that, we should never make a claim to have full knowledge of Him and His ways, nor should we ever make a bold claim about having His power [1 Cor. 2:9, Rom. 11:33-36, James 4:6-10, Matt. 5:1-12 (my note: only if we have humility will we receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit i.e. God's power)]. We should acknowledge that He is working in our life, but the kind of thinking that the power that He gives us is then ours is a very harmful way of thinking. It leads to pride.
We have knowledge of Him according to what He has revealed about Himself, but other than that, we should never make a claim to have full knowledge of Him and His ways, nor should we ever make a bold claim about having His power [1 Cor. 2:9, Rom. 11:33-36, James 4:6-10, Matt. 5:1-12 (my note: only if we have humility will we receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit i.e. God's power)]. We should acknowledge that He is working in our life, but the kind of thinking that the power that He gives us is then ours is a very harmful way of thinking. It leads to pride.
~Phil
Hi Phil,
I agree in part. Yes, I agree we should never make a claim to have full knowledge of Him and His ways. Even with all the revelation in the bible we only know in part. I would add to your verses the ones in Corinthians:
1Cr 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Cr 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Not sure about the pride part and what you mean. When people have boldness and confidence in their faith, it doesn't automatically mean they have pride in their own abilities or exalting themselves. I suppose its possible, but we'd have to look at the person's mindset who you may be referring to and what set of circumstances. In any case, I believe God wants us to have great boldness in the faith, and teach with confidence. Consider these verses:
Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
1Ti 3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Hbr 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Act 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
1Jo 4:17 ¶ Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
In that last set of verses, I think its clear that the purpose of God's love is so we may have boldness, because as he is, so are we in this world.
Ambassadors have confidence and boldness in the power and authority they have been given by their country. We are ambassadors for Christ. As such, we have confidence and boldness in the power and authority given to us by God.
Furthermore I think having confidence and boldness in what God has wrought through Christ Jesus is the opposite of having pride in oneself or one's own abilities.
I agree in part. Yes, I agree we should never make a claim to have full knowledge of Him and His ways. Even with all the revelation in the bible we only know in part. I would add to your verses the ones in Corinthians:
1Cr 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Cr 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Not sure about the pride part and what you mean. When people have boldness and confidence in their faith, it doesn't automatically mean they have pride in their own abilities or exalting themselves. I suppose its possible, but we'd have to look at the person's mindset who you may be referring to and what set of circumstances. In any case, I believe God wants us to have great boldness in the faith, and teach with confidence. Consider these verses:
Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
1Ti 3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Hbr 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Act 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
1Jo 4:17 ¶ Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
In that last set of verses, I think its clear that the purpose of God's love is so we may have boldness, because as he is, so are we in this world.
Ambassadors have confidence and boldness in the power and authority they have been given by their country. We are ambassadors for Christ. As such, we have confidence and boldness in the power and authority given to us by God.
Furthermore I think having confidence and boldness in what God has wrought through Christ Jesus is the opposite of having pride in oneself or one's own abilities.
We should be confident in our faith, yes. But we should never be confident to the point that it leads to pride. I think much of Wierwille's theology leads to this sort of thinking of being so positive and confident that we become prideful of ourselves.
I remember that song "I got the Power of God", and the slogan of
God in Christ in ME!
it often seemed to me the focus was all about self, about how now the individual has abilities beyond that of a "regular person".
special
endowed
ordained yes biblical but again often understood out of context of the writing.
able
Im sure you can think of some.
the issue I have it makes for a type of competition amoung people.
and the battle is NOT about people it is about God and His enemy ... WHICH IS NOT EVER HIS OWN CREATION!
but that is how it was percieved and I would say even presented .
Well now if you had not taken the class or the advanced or soemthing or other then you are not capable of dealing with that devil spirit and you better beware! so take the class.
makes the "power" about you and what you know and how you can manipulate the situation with special powers. or not.
it takes the power awway from were it is and puts it on how a person can "OPERATE NINE ALL THE TIME" .
who needs God then?
I am able to have answered prayers and i have witnessed God glory many times and the ressurection of a Saviour, by the utter grace of being the one who was given the LOVE He has for all.
to think i wander the earth with some type of magic wand is just plain blasphemy to me.
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Brushstroke(calling you that because Oldiesman's real name is also Phil), According to Power For Abundant Living and the revision that TWi and it's splinter groups use, the Koinne greek word Gnosis/ginosko means spiritual wisdom that all "true Christians" are required to have to battle Satan or the devil will literally murder all humanity, because Adam and Eve transferred authority God had given them to Lucifer when they ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, So Satan is master and owner of the universe, and God isn't going to sue Satan nor humanity for breaking/breaching contract law by "assasinating/murdering " the Devil.
So God created another perfect human being(sperm and ova[not Mary's]) to bring about Jesus the Messiah/Christ, who can never be God in human flesh. Also, TWI thought Lewis spoke $#*! and didn't understand "true" Christianity(mentally insane or devil/demon possesed). Of course Wierwille and Martindale were stupid. VPW should have known better but he ended up rejecting his seminary theological training calling it Satanic crap, throwing away those books to be burned in local incinerator/buried as trash and garbage(Good riddance, he would have said) Check out the wikipedia article on him. You may also want to check out Pastor John Juddes, a Lutheran Church Missouri Synod pastor, who has written several articles on The Way International. His congregation is Messiah Lutheran in CA.
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Twinky
For those still deeply rooted in "the Law of Believing," may I suggest a review of Ecclesiastes? Here are some excerpts:
Ecclesiastes 8:14
There is a vanity which is done upon the earth; that there be just men, unto whom it happeneth according to the work of the wicked; again, there be wicked men, to whom it happeneth according to the work of the righteous: I said that this also is vanity
(In other words, you don't always get what you work towards - work towards presumably believing to attain. And the wicked get better than they believe for)
Ecc 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
(Those who have worked hard, trained, and acquired skills and abilities don't always get the benefit. Is not the acquisition and application of skills part of "believing"? - but chance overrides that!)
If the Law of Believing works for saint and sinner alike - why are there so many people in prison? Presumably most of those who commit crimes do so usually in the belief they will get away with it.
Indeed, fraudsters go to most elaborate ends to disguise what they are up to, setting up fake companies and all sorts. And no mugger would attack under the watchful eye of a police officer.
(Oops, edited because seems to have posted wording twice)
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TheHighWay
Brushstroke,
I have to admit, one of the big lures to TWI for me was that they seemed to be able to explain that nagging discrepancy between an all-knowing/all-loving God and all the pain and suffering experienced in the world today. By explaining the need for free-will in salvation, they both 'excused' God's allowance of Satan's uprising and fall (and the resulting evil in the world today) and 'defended' their belief that Jesus Christ cannot be part of a trinity.
In order for a person's decision to love and serve God to be genuine, they cannot be forced into it; it must be a choice. Even the angels had a choice.
In order for Jesus' sacrifice to be a valid payment for all of our sins he also had to do it by free will choice, which he really couldn't have done if he was already destined to do it as part of a god-head... he had to be a man with all the potential for getting it wrong, in order to truly get it right.
So God is all-knowing and all-loving, but had to allow for the choice to be made. Satan chose badly. All suffering and evil in this world is a direct result of his choice and the fallout of that choice. So, anything bad that happens in the world can be blamed on Satan, either because people have willfully turned away from God's ways or done it through ignorance. Conversely, believing in God, with a thorough knowledge of God's Word, allows you to tap into God's protection and healing from all that Satan has done. You are in this world, but not of this world. You are God's kid and that comes with special rights and priveleges.
Sounds good doesn't it?
It sure sounded good to me!!
But do you see the hook?
With this belief system firmly in place, we can look at any situation that comes up in the world and know WHY. It's simple: someone is doing God's will and someone isn't doing God's will. But, how do we know who is who and which is which? How do we avoid falling into Satan's traps which he lays daily to subtlely ensnare the unwatchful? (Because the secret to his success is the secrecy of his moves, and he is very good at making the counterfeit mirror the genuine to trick people.) So how do we discern truth from error? How do we tap into that special protection and power God has willed to His children? By daily making the free-will choice of Good over Evil (no, it's even more subtle than that, we must make the choice of Best over Good!!) How do we know how to make that choice? We go to the Bible, of course... it is the complete manual on how to live a Christian life. But there are so many interpretations, how do we understand the real meaning of the Bible? By taking twi classes and attending twi fellowships, of course! And once we are doing that we are set, right? We have knowledge and we know how to talk to God, right? No, because one of Satan's "fronts" by which he tricks people is SELF... you think you are tapped into God but you can still easily be led astray. So check your thinking with leadership because there is safetly in a multitude of counselors!! After all, twi leaders study what the founder taught, and the founder dug into the Word cover to cover, looked at the Greek and Hebrew, and studied the texts and compared passages and studied other men's work to come up with the truth... We then, as followers, study the Word in order to come to the same conclusions our twi founder came to (that's why it's called RE-search). And if you don't come to the same conclusion, well... you just aren't spiritually mature enough to see it yet, or maybe you are really just a spiritual hitch-hiker, not a true believer at all, in fact maybe you should be booted out of the group to protect the rest of the followers from your negative, slothful, unbelieving influence...
Frankly, even outside of the messed up twi method of practice, the biggest pitfall of this belief system is that it takes the most complex, nuanced problems and breaks them down into a simple: "This person is right" and "That person is wrong" mentality. Not only does this set the table for across-the-board policies and blanket finger-pointing, which almost always causes more harm than good, but I have found that most problems in life are just not that simple... they are a mixed-up mess of some right, some wrong, and some "I don't know" which cannot be resolved by blanket statements of good and evil.
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cman
Funny how we separated God Satan and Man.
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WordWolf
The Blue Book, page 29.
"What We Believe = What We are
The law of believing is dynamically powerful,
yet so simple. The law, simply stated, is that
what we believe for or expect, we get.
This applies in every realm: physical, mental,
material, spiritual. Thus it is this law which
basically controls the abundant life. Only if
we believe and expect abundance will we ever
realize abundance in our lives.
'The Synchronized Life' shows that our lives are
molded by our believing-both by positive and
negative believing. This law is further
explained and proved in 'The Law of Believing'
so that we will become aware of our own
thinking and then be able to control our
thinking so as to manifest the abundant life
which is promised in God's Word."
says the following on the subject of
believing:
(page 28) "WHAT WE BELIEVE EQUALS WHAT WE ARE"
(pg-29) "What We Believe = What We are
The law of believing is dynamically powerful,
yet so simple. The law, simply stated, is that
what we believe for or expect, we get.
This applies in every realm: physical, mental,
material, spiritual. Thus it is this law which
basically controls the abundant life. Only if
we believe and expect abundance will we ever
realize abundance in our lives.
'The Synchronized Life' shows that our lives are
molded by our believing-both by positive and
negative believing. This law is further
explained and proved in 'The Law of Believing'
so that we will become aware of our own
thinking and then be able to control our
thinking so as to manifest the abundant life
which is promised in God's Word."
-----------------------------------======
That was the entire contents of both pages.
except for the last 2 words of the second page,
God doesn't enter the picture.
(page 31) "Chapter Four.
The Synchronized Life
Whatever a person believes is directly reflected
in what he confesses. What a person confesses in
his innermost being is what he brings into
manifestation in his life. If a person goes
through life confessing that he has great need,
he will definitely have great need. If he
confesses sickness, he will continue to be sick
and afflicted because of the law that what one
believes in the depth of his soul absolutely
appears in his life.
The "synchronized life" is simply stated by this
formula: confession of belief yields receipt of
confession."
pg-43 and 44. "The law of believing brings
phenomenal results to all those who apply and
practice the principles.
You may believe rightly or wrongly. Believing
works both ways, and you bring to yourself
whatever you believe."
pg-44."Fear, worry and anxiety are types of
believing. If you worry, have fear and are
anxious you will receive the fruit of your
negative believing which is defeat.
The law of believing works equally effectively
for both the sinner and the saint..."
pg-8. "How have you mentally pictured yourself
for the past week, month, year, ten years? The
picture that you carry of yourself with
clearness and with concern is what you are.
This law works for positive and negative
thinking alike."
pg-6 and 7.
"A camera offers an appropriate analogy of the
means by which you can get results to prayer and
find release from your prisons. If you want an
answer to prayer, first get your object in mind.
You select what you want in your picture. This
is step one: you're CLEAR on what you want.
Secondly, you use the range finder and focus
the subject properly. Then consider the length
of exposure of the picture so that all factors
may work together for a perfect picture. After
all this, shoot the picture.
When you are focused on the picture of what you
want, keep your mind stayed on it. If you
allow something else to come in and take
precedence over that picture you will get a
blurred answer to prayer; you will not get the
results you desire; you will not get release
from the prison which is encasing you.
If you want to get rid of something today, you
must focus, dwell on what you want. It is
the introduction of light that dispels darkness,
not the dwelling on the darkness that introduces
light. If you want more business, better
relations between employer and employee or a better job,
get your desire in mind, focus on it
and then determine the exposure time needed to
accomplish the task.
If you want to get out of your prisons today,
immediately change your thinking about your
situation: change your subject of focus. As you
change your thinking, you will draw a mental
pattern for the things you DO want in your life,
which in turn will dispel and root out all those
things you do not want."
The Orange Book:
page 32.
"The law of believing is the greatest law in the
Word of God. As a matter of fact, it is not only
the greatest law in The Word, it is the greatest
law in the whole world. Believing works for
saint and sinner alike."
page 35.
(after referencing Mark 11:23)
"This is the great law in the Word of God.
'Whosoever...' It does not say Christian or
non-Christian; whosoever means whosoever.
"Whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be
thou removes, and...cast into the sea and shall
not doubt...but shall believe that those things
which he saith shall come to pass; he shall
have whatsoever he saith.' In other words, say
it, believe it, and it will come to pass."
"The law of believing is the greatest law in
the Word of God: whosoever says it, whosoever
believes, will act and receive."
-------------------------------------------
page 38."If one is afraid of a disease, he will manifest
that disease because the law is that what one
believes (in this case, what one believes
negatively), he is going to receive."
his law of negative and positive believing works
for both Christian and non-Christian. When we
believe, we receive the results of our believing
regardless of who or what we are."
Mike,
the blue book "the Bible Tells Me So"
says the following on the subject of
believing:
(page 28) "WHAT WE BELIEVE EQUALS WHAT WE ARE"
(pg-29) "What We Believe = What We are
The law of believing is dynamically powerful,
yet so simple. The law, simply stated, is that
what we believe for or expect, we get.
This applies in every realm: physical, mental,
material, spiritual. Thus it is this law which
basically controls the abundant life. Only if
we believe and expect abundance will we ever
realize abundance in our lives.
'The Synchronized Life' shows that our lives are
molded by our believing-both by positive and
negative believing. This law is further
explained and proved in 'The Law of Believing'
so that we will become aware of our own
thinking and then be able to control our
thinking so as to manifest the abundant life
which is promised in God's Word."
-----------------------------------======
That was the entire contents of both pages.
except for the last 2 words of the second page,
God doesn't enter the picture.]
(page 31) "Chapter Four.
The Synchronized Life
Whatever a person believes is directly reflected
in what he confesses. What a person confesses in
his innermost being is what he brings into
manifestation in his life. If a person goes
through life confessing that he has great need,
he will definitely have great need. If he
confesses sickness, he will continue to be sick
and afflicted because of the law that what one
believes in the depth of his soul absolutely
appears in his life.
The "synchronized life" is simply stated by this
formula: confession of belief yields receipt of
confession."
----------------------------------------------
pg-43 and 44. "The law of believing brings
phenomenal results to all those who apply and
practice the principles.
You may believe rightly or wrongly. Believing
works both ways, and you bring to yourself
whatever you believe."
pg-44."Fear, worry and anxiety are types of
believing. If you worry, have fear and are
anxious you will receive the fruit of your
negative believing which is defeat.
The law of believing works equally effectively
for both the sinner and the saint..."
Chapter One, "Release From Your Prisons".
pg-8. "How have you mentally pictured yourself
for the past week, month, year, ten years? The
picture that you carry of yourself with
clearness and with concern is what you are.
This law works for positive and negative
thinking alike."
pg-6 and 7.
"A camera offers an appropriate analogy of the
means by which you can get results to prayer and
find release from your prisons. If you want an
answer to prayer, first get your object in mind.
You select what you want in your picture. This
is step one: youre CLEAR on what you want.
Secondly, you use the range finder and focus
the subject properly. Then consider the length
of exposure of the picture so that all factors
may work together for a perfect picture. After
all this, shoot the picture.
When you are focused on the picture of what you
want, keep your mind stayted on it. If you
allow something else to come in and take
precedence over that picture you will get a
blurred answer to prayer; you will not get the
results you desire; you will not get release
from the prison which is encasing you.
If you want to get rid of something today, you
must focus, dwell on what you want. It is
the introduction of light that dispels darkness,
not the dwelling on the darkness that introduces
light. If you want more business, better
relations between employer and employee or a better job,
get your desire in mind, focus on it
and then determine the exposure time needed to
accomplish the task.
If you want to get out of your prisons today,
immediately change your thinking about your
situation: change your subject of focus. As you
change your thinking, you will draw a mental
pattern for the things you DO want in your life,
which in turn will dispel and root out all those
things you do not want."
-------------------------------------------
The orange book ALSO addresses the subject of
believing.
page 32.
"The law of believing is the greatest law in the
Word of God. As a matter of fact, it is not only
the greatest law in The Word, it is the greatest
law in the whole world. Believing works for
saint and sinner alike."
page 35.
(after referencing Mark 11:23)
"This is the great law in the Word of God.
'Whosoever...' It does not say Christian or
non-Christian; whosoever means whosoever.
"Whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be
thou removes, and...cast into the sea and shall
not doubt...but shall believe that those things
which he saith shall come to pass; he shall
have whatsoever he saith.' In other words, say
it, believe it, and it will come to pass."
"The law of believing is the greatest law in
the Word of God: whosoever says it, whosoever
believes, will act and receive."
-------------------------------------------
page 38.
"If one is afraid of a disease, he will manifest
that disease because the law is that what one
believes (in this case, what one believes
negatively), he is going to receive."
his law of negative and positive believing works
for both Christian and non-Christian. When we
believe, we receive the results of our believing
regardless of who or what we are."
page 42-44 cover the story of the woman whose
fear "killed her son".
page 44.
"What one fears will surely come to pass. It is
a law. Have you ever heard about people who set
the time of their death? When somebody says
'Well, this time next year I will not be here,"
if you are a betting man, bet your money, you
are going to win. If a person makes up his mind
that this time next year he is going to be
dead, God would have to change the laws of the
universe for the person not to be accomodated."
[Missing from the book, but present in the taped class (where it's harder to evaluate something) is this
little gem. A woman supposedly operated these principles to get red drapes in her new apartment.]
"People, she must have had her need and want
parallel. Look at this. All right! She rented a
furnished apartment and it had to have drapes
on the window, right? Does it make God any
difference whether the drapes are green or red
or pink?
No, but she had a need, that need
was that they might as well have red drapes
on, that's what she wanted. She got her need
and her want parallel."
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WordWolf
When we were young, and life-and answers-were simple,
it was a great comfort to have all the answers, and be able to rattle off answers to solve any problem.
twi leaders can rattle off solutions to foreign policy problems, the budgets of countries.....
the rest of us could tell EVERYONE how to fix all the problems in their lives- quickly.
Life is rarely as simple as twi-and all harmful religions- make it.
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Ham
I don't entirely agree.
Part of the wierwillian theology suggests that we, as mortals, can take the fragments of truth we do have, and by a mathematical and scientificly precise method, put it in a pot.. add the right keys and ingredients, and come up with THE truth.
I think it puts too much of a burden on the seeker..
The salesman has to explain "apparent" bible contradictions.. look how he tortured the gospels to come up with the supposed correct numbers of the denials of peter.. and the two fig trees, the two men in Gadarenes.. etc., etc..
it looks so "scholarly".. so precise..
but I think this kind of theology takes ones eyes off the REAL issue. "Where are the results?"
I was given me the promise that if I 'believe', I can do the works of Jesus, raise the dead, heal the sick, cast out devils, miraculously multiply food, make wine out of water, etc., etc. Now it gets switched. I end up with a scholarly approach to life that seems only to lead down into an empty hole. More classes, more meetings.. more money. No documentable results. Same for anyone else I knew who tried it.
It's all about sales.. make a promise, a REAL REAL BIG, OUTRAGEOUS promise. Then don't sell the promise. Sell the person the alleged method to acquire the promise.
And it's almost never about what the salesman can do with it. It's about YOU- "how'd you like to raise the dead, heal people.. etc. etc..."
"OK sucker, when's the last time YOU raised the dead?"
:)
It's not that I don't believe there is a God.. I just don't think you can sell Him.
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waysider
And speaking of selling, there is this-------------------
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=10920
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Brushstroke
I agree, Ham. And I'd like to add something. Sure, you may understand all the things in the world about the Bible, Christianity, Christian history, and other religions. And you may be able to cast out demons, heal the sick, raise the dead, increase your wealth, speak in tongues, etc. But if you want to be a Christian and have all this, but don't have a genuine love and humility, what good does any of it do you? (1 Cor. 12:27-13:13)
Reminds me of an old story, very famous in Greece, that my priest mentioned in one of his homilies.
There were two men on an island, off the coast of Cyprus. They knew nothing about Christ except what they had been told by their parents long ago, which wasn't much at all, but they kept these things they had been taught and believed in Him, and they really believed in Him. They prayed everyday, thanking God for what little they had on this small island. Now, a bishop on a ship along with a ton of other passengers passed by this island, and he saw them, and the two men desperately wanted to get on this ship and off the island. To his shock and astonishment, the two men were actually running on the water toward the ship. Many believe it was a product of their faith, some kind of spiritual gift.
One doesn't need to have some sort of special knowledge or to understand complex theology, or to give their money to someone. Ultimately, all one needs to do is love God and love others. That was Christ's most important commandment.
Oh, I can definitely see how that would be appealing to most people. Believing in God and receiving His power (that you have a right to!) protects you from Satan...hah, sure, why not? I'd love to be protected all my life. But wait, isn't the reason Satan was kicked out of heaven because he wanted God's power?The bolded portion, is what I think is most damaging. The mindset that God's power is ours...pride in thinking that they had attained some sort of special knowledge or in thinking that they're so great like the Gnostics, or like the Pharisees.
And no, most problems in life are not so simple as "This person is right" and "That person is wrong." That kind of thinking is just naive.
~Phil
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oldiesman
Hi Phil,
I agree in part. Yes, Christ's commandment is to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. BTW, that was taught in twi in the first 30 minutes or so in the Power for Abundant Living class as "The First and Great Commandment".
What I think we may disagree on is in the importance of having knowledge of his will from the bible ... I don't know if you call that "special knowledge", ... but simply understand the importance of knowledge of God's will from the bible. Your statement "we shouldn't ever think we know his will" seems to run counter to that. I think this is one of the biggie's of The Way and therefore you may have strong disagreement with your girlfriend on this.
I don't think so. As I understand it, Lucifer already was powerful as one of God's arch-angels ... but that wasn't enough for him, what he wanted was to exalt his throne ABOVE God. Essentially wanted to be God.
But that's far different than believers in Christ wanting to have God's power working in their life:
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Eph 1:19 And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
1Th 2:13 ¶ For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received [it] not [as] the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
Jesus said he who believeth on me "the works that I do shall he do also...".
Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
So I don't think its about wanting to be God or wanting God's power to exalt one-self for some selfish purpose ...
I never thought that about Way people, but I guess you'll have to make up your own mind.
Conversely, I think it's all about wanting to do God's will, that is written in God's Word, because one loves God...
1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
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Brushstroke
You're right oldies, that's definitely a strong point of contention between she and I. I'm starting to think that maybe the difference is in the mindset. In Eastern Christianity, there is a strong emphasis on mystery. To say that we know what God wills for our lives, to us Orthodox, is like saying that I know God like the palm of my hand, which obviously isn't true. It's just prideful and it is not a very good example of humility. This is not to say that we can do nothing about our salvation, but the mindset of the Church is that Christianity is a spiritual struggle, it is a path in which we are to take up our cross daily and commit our lives to Christ, and submit to Him in humility, with all of our joy coming from God alone. It is a process, a spritual journey. In Orthodox and Catholic theology, salvation is not something that we already have as many Protestants believe. We are saved (Eph. 2:5-8), yes, but we are also being saved and are working out our salvation with fear and trembling (2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and we will be saved (Rom. 5:9-10), with hopeful confidence in what is to come (2 Tim. 2:11-13, James 5:7-12). I think an accurate statement would be that, for us, salvation is itself the life that we have in Christ.
That wasn't my point oldies. My point was about the pride in the idea that we can understand God and have His power. Yes, we can know God as He reveals Himself to all humans and He is a personal being, He loves us. We have knowledge of Him according to what He has revealed about Himself, but other than that, we should never make a claim to have full knowledge of Him and His ways, nor should we ever make a bold claim about having His power [1 Cor. 2:9, Rom. 11:33-36, James 4:6-10, Matt. 5:1-12 (my note: only if we have humility will we receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit i.e. God's power)]. We should acknowledge that He is working in our life, but the kind of thinking that the power that He gives us is then ours is a very harmful way of thinking. It leads to pride.
~Phil
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Ham
Oldies, I still say.. "where's the beef?"
lotsa nice, pretty convoluted theology there.. but does it really WORK?
Oldies, don't take it personally.. I'd ask anybody the same question.
let's see the works.. not rumors about them in a land far far away..
True, I doubt. Well, what can one expect.. I'm a product of da vey international..
:)
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pond
2 Corinthians 4:7
But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power (dunamis – “inherent power”) is from God and not from us.
this "power" has absolutly NotHING to do with you or what you think you may have learned or know.
your a sinner and you may have been saved from death by the very grace of God almighty.
big deal you have accomplished nothing in the sight of God other than to believe that Jesus christ was raised from that very death you deserve .
the powers you desire are the very same satan wanted in heaven and he lost then .
i have one God and one lord and they are not either one of you with your magic spells and wanna be mini jesus mind sets.
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Ham
And that's one trap I don't fall for anymore..
"well, are you doubting GOD ALMIGHTY? Surely HE can do so and so.."
True. But it's not God Almighty who I call into question.. it's men.
some people's logic, I imagine can't separate the two..
if one wants to be God, well.. let's see it. Go ahead.. BE God..
:)
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Ham
I mean.. what's the big deal? Why does one need to convince ME?
I'd say more.. but it's probably the wrong forum..
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Ham
The whole purpose of "witnessing" in way terms, is to convince oneself, is it not?
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waysider
edited-----posted on wrong thread
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Brushstroke
I agree, we're all sinners...just sinners trying to do the best we can, eh? As far as God's power goes, it's not for us.
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cman
that's why you have to stop being a man to see God
'no man hath seen God'
illogical, yep
can you do it?
nope
the spirit has it's will
made known in thousands of ways
spirit, christ, lord, god
it don't matter what it's called
eastern religions have many names
but it's the same thing
bigger then one can imagine
the unseen takes turning the eye away from what is seen
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oldiesman
Hi Phil,
I agree in part. Yes, I agree we should never make a claim to have full knowledge of Him and His ways. Even with all the revelation in the bible we only know in part. I would add to your verses the ones in Corinthians:
1Cr 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Cr 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Not sure about the pride part and what you mean. When people have boldness and confidence in their faith, it doesn't automatically mean they have pride in their own abilities or exalting themselves. I suppose its possible, but we'd have to look at the person's mindset who you may be referring to and what set of circumstances. In any case, I believe God wants us to have great boldness in the faith, and teach with confidence. Consider these verses:
Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
1Ti 3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Hbr 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Act 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
1Jo 4:17 ¶ Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
In that last set of verses, I think its clear that the purpose of God's love is so we may have boldness, because as he is, so are we in this world.
Ambassadors have confidence and boldness in the power and authority they have been given by their country. We are ambassadors for Christ. As such, we have confidence and boldness in the power and authority given to us by God.
Furthermore I think having confidence and boldness in what God has wrought through Christ Jesus is the opposite of having pride in oneself or one's own abilities.
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Brushstroke
We should be confident in our faith, yes. But we should never be confident to the point that it leads to pride. I think much of Wierwille's theology leads to this sort of thinking of being so positive and confident that we become prideful of ourselves.
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pond
I remember that song "I got the Power of God", and the slogan of
God in Christ in ME!
it often seemed to me the focus was all about self, about how now the individual has abilities beyond that of a "regular person".
special
endowed
ordained yes biblical but again often understood out of context of the writing.
able
Im sure you can think of some.
the issue I have it makes for a type of competition amoung people.
and the battle is NOT about people it is about God and His enemy ... WHICH IS NOT EVER HIS OWN CREATION!
but that is how it was percieved and I would say even presented .
Well now if you had not taken the class or the advanced or soemthing or other then you are not capable of dealing with that devil spirit and you better beware! so take the class.
makes the "power" about you and what you know and how you can manipulate the situation with special powers. or not.
it takes the power awway from were it is and puts it on how a person can "OPERATE NINE ALL THE TIME" .
who needs God then?
I am able to have answered prayers and i have witnessed God glory many times and the ressurection of a Saviour, by the utter grace of being the one who was given the LOVE He has for all.
to think i wander the earth with some type of magic wand is just plain blasphemy to me.
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