You ever think about taking the 'laundry list' of what constitutes a cult, and testing it against more mainstream groups/churches/organizations? You know, the kind of entities that most people wouldn't even think of considering of being cults?
How about a denomination that teaches as part of its theology that you must accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, or else you'll "burn in hell", or otherwise wind up totally cast out from God?
How about a denomination that teaches as part of its theology that you must accept the Trinity in order to be a Christian, and that if you don't, you are suspected of being part of some 'cult'. (Believe it or not, there are many people who still have this mindset, and was a mindset that was partly influential in determining TWI, as well as other groups, to be cults.)
How about a religion(s) who believe, and teach, that atheists aren't moral at all, can't be loyal to their country, are dangerous to society, are looking to brainwash little children, and the like crap ... and for no better reason than that they are atheists?
Or how about a political party which treats its political philosophy as tho' it's based totally upon God's Laws and/or the Bible, and those that clearly and openly challenge any of it is suspect of being 'unAmerican', 'disloyal', 'haters of freedom', etc., etc.?
Or a political party which treats its political philosophy as tho' it's truly "for the people, social justice, for the environment, yadayada", and anyone who challenges them is 'oppressive', 'racist', 'sexist', 'for Dubya's War', etc., etc.?
...
Ooohh, here's a goody. How about an anti-cult group/organization who thinks that they have _the final word_ on what constitutes a 'cult', 'mind control', etc., and anyone who openly challenges them are automatically considered to be nothing more than a 'cult apologist', 'in denial about being in a mind control cult', yadayadayada?
And before anybody comes back with a "but in these examples, nobody is trying to force you to accept their respective views like TWI or other cults do", allow me to remind you that the psychological practices/tools/tricks/techniques of browbeating, manipulation, intimidation, threats (both covert and overt), and even more, ... have been, and are being used, in a variety of different ways, in the examples I have given above, as it has been used in TWI, the Moonies, Scientology, and other groups that are 'officially' listed as 'cults'. ... Yes Virginia, they have.
Besides, as far as the 'official' anti-cult organizations who determine what is and what is not a 'cult', ... how objective and honest are they behaving in their determinations, hmmmm? Has anyone even bothered to ask themselves or these organizations that question? Where is their outside 'peer review' in keeping their determinations above board? ... Or is it a case where you all accept their word for it simply because they say so? Or because they have gotten a lot of things right about TWI? ... Shouldn't we be as scrutinizing about them as we now are re: TWI?
I think the real question is this, regardless of belief system is the group abusive to it's followers and does it take an elitist position that implies or literally states infidels should die? I don't care what you believe, if that system of belief calls for death of those that don't believe the same, and it enforces strict adherence to dogma under pain of being ostracized, then I would call it a cult.
Abuse can take the form of:
Emotional
Sexual
Financial
Labor
Physical
Social
Mental
It clouds the issue when we start getting involved with ideology I prefer just cutting to the chase, forget what they believe. Do they beat their followers? Do the deprive them of food, sleep, free time, social interaction with the outside world? Do they threaten that if their followers leave the group that they will have bad things befall them? Do they forbid contact with those not in the group especially family and old friends? Do they require that their followers bring new people in or suffer judgment? Do they require a large percentage of wages to be given by the follower in order to secure their good standing with the group?
I think when talking to the followers the mistake has been made and I have made it, that the focus is on the belief system. What I've come to realize is if we start with human questions, like are you eating enough, how much sleep are you getting, how long has it been since you've talked to your folks, has anyone threatened you, or hit you, do you feel at ease, are there pressures to conform, have you felt less then because you haven't met the expectations of your group leader, would you feel safe if you left the group, how much money are you expected to give every week, if you became ill from let's say heart disease or cancer do you think you could see a doctor without a problem from the group, when is the last time you were able to go away by yourself for an afternoon or day or weekend, how far can you travel by yourself from where you live, etc...
What if you don't believe in a certain part of their doctrine? What/how do they treat you then? Are you treated as a pariah, or as unworthy, or do they tell you that you're going to hell, and/or are told that you aren't welcome back into their church? ... Shouldn't that also be considered a form of abuse?
Or how about if those in the church you're going to find out that you no longer believe in their god, or any god for that matter, anymore? Do they (again) tell you that you aren't welcome back into their church and/or that because of your abandonment of God, you are no longer a moral person? ... Shouldn't that be also considered a form of abuse?
Or how about if you don't believe in a particular political point-of-view that is held paramount by the group? Do they treat you like you're 'less than patriotic' or 'less American' or even 'treasonous' because of this? ... Shouldn't that be also considered a form of abuse?
You are right, in that doctrine shouldn't be considered part of determining what a cult is, or what constitutes abusive behavior. What should be considered is how people treat you in relation to your acceptance, or non-acceptance, of said doctrine.
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bfh
Cindy!
I'm not sure where you have looked, so here's some suggestions off the top of my head.
Did you try the International Cultic Studies Association? It looks like that might be a good resource.
Here's the link to the home page-
http://www.icsahome.com/
Or F.A.C.T. net - http://factnet.org/
However, I can't vouch for either of these two groups.
Also, most colleges and universities subscribe to a myriad of scholarly and research publications that are online.
I'm not sure if you are enrolled in a college or university, but I've found the online publications to be a great resource.
Hope this helps.
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waysider
Even if you find a number, it's accuracy would be dubious at best.
The Way never considered itself a cult.
I suspect many others fly "under the radar" as well.
I used to work with someone who, at one time, belonged to a cult called The Fellowship Of Believers.
From what was described, it was remarkably similar to TWI.
I have never been able to find any information on them at all.
There is a church that uses that same name but, as far as I know, there is no connection.
You might try the following link:
http://www.caic.org.au/zentry1.htm
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GeorgeStGeorge
And of course, there are those who would consider Roman Catholicism or most evangelical churches as cults.
George
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GarthP2000
You ever think about taking the 'laundry list' of what constitutes a cult, and testing it against more mainstream groups/churches/organizations? You know, the kind of entities that most people wouldn't even think of considering of being cults?
How about a denomination that teaches as part of its theology that you must accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, or else you'll "burn in hell", or otherwise wind up totally cast out from God?
How about a denomination that teaches as part of its theology that you must accept the Trinity in order to be a Christian, and that if you don't, you are suspected of being part of some 'cult'. (Believe it or not, there are many people who still have this mindset, and was a mindset that was partly influential in determining TWI, as well as other groups, to be cults.)
How about a religion(s) who believe, and teach, that atheists aren't moral at all, can't be loyal to their country, are dangerous to society, are looking to brainwash little children, and the like crap ... and for no better reason than that they are atheists?
Or how about a political party which treats its political philosophy as tho' it's based totally upon God's Laws and/or the Bible, and those that clearly and openly challenge any of it is suspect of being 'unAmerican', 'disloyal', 'haters of freedom', etc., etc.?
Or a political party which treats its political philosophy as tho' it's truly "for the people, social justice, for the environment, yadayada", and anyone who challenges them is 'oppressive', 'racist', 'sexist', 'for Dubya's War', etc., etc.?
...
Ooohh, here's a goody. How about an anti-cult group/organization who thinks that they have _the final word_ on what constitutes a 'cult', 'mind control', etc., and anyone who openly challenges them are automatically considered to be nothing more than a 'cult apologist', 'in denial about being in a mind control cult', yadayadayada?
And before anybody comes back with a "but in these examples, nobody is trying to force you to accept their respective views like TWI or other cults do", allow me to remind you that the psychological practices/tools/tricks/techniques of browbeating, manipulation, intimidation, threats (both covert and overt), and even more, ... have been, and are being used, in a variety of different ways, in the examples I have given above, as it has been used in TWI, the Moonies, Scientology, and other groups that are 'officially' listed as 'cults'. ... Yes Virginia, they have.
Besides, as far as the 'official' anti-cult organizations who determine what is and what is not a 'cult', ... how objective and honest are they behaving in their determinations, hmmmm? Has anyone even bothered to ask themselves or these organizations that question? Where is their outside 'peer review' in keeping their determinations above board? ... Or is it a case where you all accept their word for it simply because they say so? Or because they have gotten a lot of things right about TWI? ... Shouldn't we be as scrutinizing about them as we now are re: TWI?
Who is watching the watchers, as it were?
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Seth R.
I think the real question is this, regardless of belief system is the group abusive to it's followers and does it take an elitist position that implies or literally states infidels should die? I don't care what you believe, if that system of belief calls for death of those that don't believe the same, and it enforces strict adherence to dogma under pain of being ostracized, then I would call it a cult.
Abuse can take the form of:
Emotional
Sexual
Financial
Labor
Physical
Social
Mental
It clouds the issue when we start getting involved with ideology I prefer just cutting to the chase, forget what they believe. Do they beat their followers? Do the deprive them of food, sleep, free time, social interaction with the outside world? Do they threaten that if their followers leave the group that they will have bad things befall them? Do they forbid contact with those not in the group especially family and old friends? Do they require that their followers bring new people in or suffer judgment? Do they require a large percentage of wages to be given by the follower in order to secure their good standing with the group?
I think when talking to the followers the mistake has been made and I have made it, that the focus is on the belief system. What I've come to realize is if we start with human questions, like are you eating enough, how much sleep are you getting, how long has it been since you've talked to your folks, has anyone threatened you, or hit you, do you feel at ease, are there pressures to conform, have you felt less then because you haven't met the expectations of your group leader, would you feel safe if you left the group, how much money are you expected to give every week, if you became ill from let's say heart disease or cancer do you think you could see a doctor without a problem from the group, when is the last time you were able to go away by yourself for an afternoon or day or weekend, how far can you travel by yourself from where you live, etc...
Seth
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GarthP2000
How about questions like:
What if you don't believe in a certain part of their doctrine? What/how do they treat you then? Are you treated as a pariah, or as unworthy, or do they tell you that you're going to hell, and/or are told that you aren't welcome back into their church? ... Shouldn't that also be considered a form of abuse?
Or how about if those in the church you're going to find out that you no longer believe in their god, or any god for that matter, anymore? Do they (again) tell you that you aren't welcome back into their church and/or that because of your abandonment of God, you are no longer a moral person? ... Shouldn't that be also considered a form of abuse?
Or how about if you don't believe in a particular political point-of-view that is held paramount by the group? Do they treat you like you're 'less than patriotic' or 'less American' or even 'treasonous' because of this? ... Shouldn't that be also considered a form of abuse?
You are right, in that doctrine shouldn't be considered part of determining what a cult is, or what constitutes abusive behavior. What should be considered is how people treat you in relation to your acceptance, or non-acceptance, of said doctrine.
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Cindy!
Thanks for your replies, I posted in the About the Way forum how the presentation went and a copy of the packet I gave out.
Thanks again!
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