Eventually, these meddlers will have their nose in every aspect of your life. Such as:
1. How you raise your kid
2 What kind of work you should do
3. see your bank records.. to "help" you of course.
4. Have you submit a weekly plan, when you will go grocery shopping.. which "believer" you will be going with.. and don't EVER deviate from the plan..
5. Don't forget. They will need to know how often and when you are having sex with your spouse, provided you're married and all..
6. And don't even THINK of buying a car, or a house, or anything "major" without their "input"..
7. Oh yes.. you'll be "busy". Miss a few meetings, and somebody will think something is "wrong" with you..
8. You'll volunteer the use of your house, if you have a nice one, for classes, fellowships..
9. You'll have the "honor" of being "requested" to clean leader's houses, babysit the kids..
10. If you're on staff, you will be forbidden to have a "serious" pet, such as a dog, a cat.. and don't think of enrolling your kids in karate, or similar extracuricular activities. You'll be forced to live in a trailer or cheesy dormitory, and have virtually little or no privacy..
etc. etc...
If I didn't see half of this myself, I'd think it was a work of fiction..
about half of that list was life in the way when I left in 96. As a supposed VOLUNTEER. a couple of years later, life in the way WAS the list..
I think they rolled back a LITTLE on a few items on the list..
But it all started as a nice little bible meeting..
Allow me to put this in the perspective of a non-member.
Suppose you were told by the Eastern Orthodox Church, to which you belong, that unless you gave them 20% of your gross income(preferably more), not only would they cut you off, the devil himself would bring death and destruction to you and your loved ones. What would you do? (Supposing, of course, that they had programmed you to believe they were telling you the truth.)
BTW----The former president of TWI said that if you ever left "the true household" of The Way after having heard "The Truth", you would be a grease spot in the road by midnight.
That's why this place is called Grease Spot Cafe!!
Allow me to put this in the perspective of a non-member.
Suppose you were told by the Eastern Orthodox Church, to which you belong, that unless you gave them 20% of your gross income(preferably more), not only would they cut you off, the devil himself would bring death and destruction to you and your loved ones. What would you do? (Supposing, of course, that they had programmed you to believe they were telling you the truth.)
BTW----The former president of TWI said that if you ever left "the true household" of The Way after having heard "The Truth", you would be a grease spot in the road by midnight.
That's why this place is called Grease Spot Cafe!!
I honestly cannot relate. I have never been one to be so sucked into something that I cannot use my own reason. But if I were truly brainwashed into believing that kind of threatening, I suppose I would probably end up giving them that 20% they'd be asking for.
I honestly cannot relate. I have never been one to be so sucked into something that I cannot use my own reason. But if I were truly brainwashed into believing that kind of threatening, I suppose I would probably end up giving them that 20% they'd be asking for.
That's kinda the point. I was 20 when I got involved in the way. It appeared to me to be a group of nice mannered, well-groomed people that wanted to learn about God and His Word and live accordingly. There was no pressure - at first. It was all sweetness and tenderness. It was all about how much God loves us.
Someone here once described it as similar to how a frog stays in boiling water - doesn't jump out. The frog's not put in boiling water right away, as the water heats up with the frog in it, the frog gets used to the increased temperature incrementally. The Way's mind control methods work that way.
For example, first they taught that if we took the PFAL class, we'd be equipped and able to study the Word, which is where the power of God is explained. You'll also be able to speak in tongues, which is perfect prayer, among other things. Don't you WANT to pray perfectly? Of course you do.
Then after you take that class, the pressure is raised a little bit to you need to attend twig fellowship twice a week to reap the benefits of the Word that's made available to you that week. That the twig coordinator is teaching what THAT specific twig needs to hear that specific week. Well, who wanted to miss out on what God wanted us to know that particular week? (I hear that nowadays they all teach the same thing at all the fellowships, so the old "each twig is self-governing, self-propagating..." no longer applies.)
Then before you know it, you're rearranging your schedule and keeping your school-aged kids up way too late at night so you can attend the Intermediate Class. You NEED the Intermediate class now. The foundational PFAL class is no longer the goal. You'll be able to speak in tongues with interpretation and prophesy, which is after the Intermediate class, so of course, now you move mountains to be able to attend THAT class.
Well, once you're an Intermediate class grad, the pressure really starts to get you to prepare for the Advanced Class - cause THAT's where the real knowledge is. Have a question that you never would have had before taking either of the 2 preceding classes? It's never answered straight out - it's always - "This is handled so well in the Advanced Class - you really need to build your believing to attend that this year". The Advanced Class is held only once a year and is 2 weeks long, so you have to rearrange your entire life aand family to accommodate that. But by now it's YOUR heart's desire. YOU want it more than anything in life, so you jump through all the hoops, save up all the money, quit the job that won't give the time off, etc...
You're so busy getting ready to do the next thing on top of attending fellowship twice a week and then any other additional events they have going on, that you don't even realize the "ministry" has become your whole life. Friends who don't understand what you're into just fall off the radar screen. Anyone who's not "with the way" isn't worthy of your time anymore. You're busy bringing new people to the class. You don't have time to stop and think about the gnawing doubts in your mind. You've been taught that you can only think one thought at a time so make it a godly thought, you know, something from PFAL... It's one thought at a time, not all at once, or surely nobody would have gotten caught up in it.
Once you're through the Advanced Class, why, there's only one thing to do. Go into the Way Corps. IF you REALLY love GOD, if you REALLY want to serve God and His people...
Then it's "if you really love God you'll give more than the tithe - they gave the tithe in the OT when it wasn't available to be born again - how much MORE we should do in this Grace Administration than they did in OT times..."
So even though you know the Bible says the tithe is 10%, you give 15% so you're considered spritually trusting God...
It's really hard to comprehend unless you're actually there and experience it or have someone you love go through it.
Mind control is a subtle, deliberate process.
I was told by someone I must be "weak-minded" to have allowed a cult to take control of me. ANYONE who knows me at all, knows that's not true. That's why there's such a need for a GreaseSpotCafe. That's why you see so much anger here. It was a very rude awakening to come to the conclusion that I was living my life as someone else saw fit, not myself.
For one thing, I had way too much ego to believe that someone else was running my life. I was out of the cult for a few years before I realized what had happened to me. I was not only mad at them for DOING something like that to me, but even madder at me for being vulnerable to such a deal.
It's all very complicated and I hope I've helped clear it up a little for you.
being involved isnt that bad cause I didnt believe anything was wrong and they were loving me.
it was when it was time to go or to question the wrong person about an idea that the torment began.
you can stay be happy life goes on.
or begin to question something but keep being involved thinking it will be different and YOU must be the one with wrong thoughts.. till you either change your mind and allow satan to stop using your thougts or ask a wrong question that cant be answered or "loved away" that is when it gets interesting for ya.
trust me
hahah yeah that is a good motive to stay if you think so .
Belle tells it like it is. Insidious. Pernicious. Corrosive of thinking ability. You think you're thinking; you even enjoy thinking a little differently (very spiritual, you know). All the time you're alienating yourself from the rest of the world, your friends, your family. No, no. It's not brainwashing. It's washing the worldly thoughts from your brain.
Nobody decides to join a cult; but one day you look round, and there you are.
My advice...Stay as far away from these twi people as possible.
No debates, no agreeing to attend a twi "social event", absolutely no classes...Once they realize that you are absolutely not interested in their group;/cult...they will distance themselves from you.
IMHO...having a relationship with a twi member is like placing a water moccasin snake in the bathtub before bathing...no thanks...life is too short for that kind of misery.
Hi. My name is Phil. I was wondering what TWI teaches, what its' doctrines and beliefs are. I'm an Eastern Orthodox Christian myself, but my girlfriend is a member of TWI, and we've had a few discussions about religion/politics before, and I can see that we apparently view things very differently as far as things like Jesus Christ being God-incarnate (or not), the Trinity, and a few other things. I don't believe religious differences should come between two people who are in a relationship, and they don't come between us. Hah...God bless her...Stephanie and I can talk about anything and we still love each other the same. Even so, these differences I find a little odd and disconcerting as I haven't come into contact with a lot of Christian groups that don't believe that God is a unity of three Persons, or that Jesus isn't God, or that believe in speaking in tongues as a visible manifestation of your salvation, etc. I guess it's evident that I do know a little about what The Way believes, but I'd like to get a much clearer picture.
So, who better to come than to you guys? What exactly does The Way teach and where does it get its teachings from? And if you don't mind sharing, what were your experiences in The Way and what made you leave?
Thanks! :)
~Phil~
hi phil. i have attended way fellowships since 1980. was away for a few years on 2 different occasions,returned about 7 years ago and plan on staying for the bible that is taught. there were in the past some in leadership positions that should never have ben. these former leaders invented laws and tried to dictate how people lived there life. we have weeded all these bad leaders out and have a really great ministry. i personally know a lady that has ben coming to fellowship for a number of years that married a man that is not into GOD. the ministry didnt marry them they were married elsewere. this ladies new husband eventually came to check out fellowship but quit coming his reason he's not interested in GOD.he doesnt go to any church. the lady continues to come to fellowship and has said that her husband is a sweetheart. i met him and he seemed very nice. no one in the way objected to them getting married. there are married people who come to fellowship who have sposes that dont attend. the bible clearly says that if you are married to somenoe whos not into GOD and the 2 of you are happy together that you should stay together,and not divorce. however it says if the one whos not into GOD decides to leave than allow them to leave,thats what the bible says.my mom along with us kids grew up roman catholic. my dad quit going when i was little,my mom was always trying to get him to go. about 30 years later my dad decides to go to the roman catholic church. my mom and dad had a great marrige. one thing to keep in mind are your personal goals in life. this is a BIG deal. if one wants to enlist in the military and the other is not into that lifestyle than you shouldnt get married. i was listening to a woman named dr.luara on the radio and a woman called in complaining that she was trying to get her husband to quit being a over the road truck driver. she said he was a truck driver BEFORE they got married. that should have ben talked about BEFORE they were married and if the lady still had a problem with it than that would not be the man for her,and you go find someone else. hope this helps you, GOD bless you
there were in the past some in leadership positions that should never have ben. these former leaders invented laws and tried to dictate how people lived there life. we have weeded all these bad leaders out and have a really great ministry.
So long as rivenbark is still in twi, let alone in the chiefest seat,
we can prove that "all" the leaders who did that are not out.
So long as rivenbark is still in twi, let alone in the chiefest seat,
we can prove that "all" the leaders who did that are not out.
I can vouch for that one. I remember being a part of a special, state-wide leadership meeting. In it, John R*pp called to check in with our state/region coordinator. R*pp had a "special message" for us from Rivenb*rk. It really was supposed to be a special, make sure you mention this to all the leadership in the state, message. (This was after Craig left.)
Her message was, among other things......
Are you ready?
Make sure we are preserve the integrity of the ...... MINISTRY!
It was, I think the first time I had a red flag go up in my mind. Not preserve the integrity of the Word--the integrity of the ministry. There wasn't a "thank you" for your service as fellowship coordinators, no uplifting message from the Word or even a inspiring verse.
I agree with Oak as well---before I left I heard 2 teachings from our Branch coordinator that stated if you weren't 100% sold-out to the Way, Jesus Christ wasn't your Lord. (Of course, not too much mention was made of Jesus Christ, the emphasis was how sold-out we were supposed to be.)
I realized after I left just a few years ago that while I was sold-out to the Way, I wasn't following Jesus Christ! I had been following men almost the whole time I was involved. It was so strange not being told what to study, what to teach, where to go...I hadn't realized how much I had structured my life around the Way.
I now have a true relationship with Jesus and a peace I didn't have while involved with twi. (And joy...more love...and lots of other things! I can be myself and still be loved by my brothers and sisters in Christ. I love that! I am allowed to have struggles and my siblings help me and pray with me. I guess we are trying to keep it REAL)
The thing is....IF twi had a genuine change of heart...IF the leaders were now Godly, one would expect repentance. Part of which would be to apologize, to ask forgivness and attempt to make amends for the heinous acts committed against their innocent brothers and sisters....a Godly remorse for those whom were mistreated.
It`s all instructions given in the bible that they claim to venerate.
What I actually SEE is the same old thing...cover their bu tts legally, pretend that it never happened, or that the crimes are being over exaggerated, or that it is the victims faults.
I know that one doesn`t wish to face the possibility that those whom you have loved, supported, defended and prayed for are actually in truth opportunistic vultures whom will say anything that it takes to keep their few remaining members from leaving with the dollars that support their slimy little cult.
Recommended Posts
Ham
Eventually, these meddlers will have their nose in every aspect of your life. Such as:
1. How you raise your kid
2 What kind of work you should do
3. see your bank records.. to "help" you of course.
4. Have you submit a weekly plan, when you will go grocery shopping.. which "believer" you will be going with.. and don't EVER deviate from the plan..
5. Don't forget. They will need to know how often and when you are having sex with your spouse, provided you're married and all..
6. And don't even THINK of buying a car, or a house, or anything "major" without their "input"..
7. Oh yes.. you'll be "busy". Miss a few meetings, and somebody will think something is "wrong" with you..
8. You'll volunteer the use of your house, if you have a nice one, for classes, fellowships..
9. You'll have the "honor" of being "requested" to clean leader's houses, babysit the kids..
10. If you're on staff, you will be forbidden to have a "serious" pet, such as a dog, a cat.. and don't think of enrolling your kids in karate, or similar extracuricular activities. You'll be forced to live in a trailer or cheesy dormitory, and have virtually little or no privacy..
etc. etc...
If I didn't see half of this myself, I'd think it was a work of fiction..
about half of that list was life in the way when I left in 96. As a supposed VOLUNTEER. a couple of years later, life in the way WAS the list..
I think they rolled back a LITTLE on a few items on the list..
But it all started as a nice little bible meeting..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
frank123lol
And..Mr.Ham is being nice!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Phil
Allow me to put this in the perspective of a non-member.
Suppose you were told by the Eastern Orthodox Church, to which you belong, that unless you gave them 20% of your gross income(preferably more), not only would they cut you off, the devil himself would bring death and destruction to you and your loved ones. What would you do? (Supposing, of course, that they had programmed you to believe they were telling you the truth.)
BTW----The former president of TWI said that if you ever left "the true household" of The Way after having heard "The Truth", you would be a grease spot in the road by midnight.
That's why this place is called Grease Spot Cafe!!
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
Brushstroke
I honestly cannot relate. I have never been one to be so sucked into something that I cannot use my own reason. But if I were truly brainwashed into believing that kind of threatening, I suppose I would probably end up giving them that 20% they'd be asking for.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
bowtwi
That's kinda the point. I was 20 when I got involved in the way. It appeared to me to be a group of nice mannered, well-groomed people that wanted to learn about God and His Word and live accordingly. There was no pressure - at first. It was all sweetness and tenderness. It was all about how much God loves us.
Someone here once described it as similar to how a frog stays in boiling water - doesn't jump out. The frog's not put in boiling water right away, as the water heats up with the frog in it, the frog gets used to the increased temperature incrementally. The Way's mind control methods work that way.
For example, first they taught that if we took the PFAL class, we'd be equipped and able to study the Word, which is where the power of God is explained. You'll also be able to speak in tongues, which is perfect prayer, among other things. Don't you WANT to pray perfectly? Of course you do.
Then after you take that class, the pressure is raised a little bit to you need to attend twig fellowship twice a week to reap the benefits of the Word that's made available to you that week. That the twig coordinator is teaching what THAT specific twig needs to hear that specific week. Well, who wanted to miss out on what God wanted us to know that particular week? (I hear that nowadays they all teach the same thing at all the fellowships, so the old "each twig is self-governing, self-propagating..." no longer applies.)
Then before you know it, you're rearranging your schedule and keeping your school-aged kids up way too late at night so you can attend the Intermediate Class. You NEED the Intermediate class now. The foundational PFAL class is no longer the goal. You'll be able to speak in tongues with interpretation and prophesy, which is after the Intermediate class, so of course, now you move mountains to be able to attend THAT class.
Well, once you're an Intermediate class grad, the pressure really starts to get you to prepare for the Advanced Class - cause THAT's where the real knowledge is. Have a question that you never would have had before taking either of the 2 preceding classes? It's never answered straight out - it's always - "This is handled so well in the Advanced Class - you really need to build your believing to attend that this year". The Advanced Class is held only once a year and is 2 weeks long, so you have to rearrange your entire life aand family to accommodate that. But by now it's YOUR heart's desire. YOU want it more than anything in life, so you jump through all the hoops, save up all the money, quit the job that won't give the time off, etc...
You're so busy getting ready to do the next thing on top of attending fellowship twice a week and then any other additional events they have going on, that you don't even realize the "ministry" has become your whole life. Friends who don't understand what you're into just fall off the radar screen. Anyone who's not "with the way" isn't worthy of your time anymore. You're busy bringing new people to the class. You don't have time to stop and think about the gnawing doubts in your mind. You've been taught that you can only think one thought at a time so make it a godly thought, you know, something from PFAL... It's one thought at a time, not all at once, or surely nobody would have gotten caught up in it.
Once you're through the Advanced Class, why, there's only one thing to do. Go into the Way Corps. IF you REALLY love GOD, if you REALLY want to serve God and His people...
Then it's "if you really love God you'll give more than the tithe - they gave the tithe in the OT when it wasn't available to be born again - how much MORE we should do in this Grace Administration than they did in OT times..."
So even though you know the Bible says the tithe is 10%, you give 15% so you're considered spritually trusting God...
It's really hard to comprehend unless you're actually there and experience it or have someone you love go through it.
Mind control is a subtle, deliberate process.
I was told by someone I must be "weak-minded" to have allowed a cult to take control of me. ANYONE who knows me at all, knows that's not true. That's why there's such a need for a GreaseSpotCafe. That's why you see so much anger here. It was a very rude awakening to come to the conclusion that I was living my life as someone else saw fit, not myself.
For one thing, I had way too much ego to believe that someone else was running my life. I was out of the cult for a few years before I realized what had happened to me. I was not only mad at them for DOING something like that to me, but even madder at me for being vulnerable to such a deal.
It's all very complicated and I hope I've helped clear it up a little for you.
Edited by bowtwiLink to comment
Share on other sites
bfh
Why did I get involved with TWI?
A member of the opposite sex.
I was also given a book to read before I took the class -
One that I'm sure is no longer for sale in the TWI bookstore -
John Lynn's Will the Real You Please Stand Up
(I think that was the name of Lynn's first book; it's been a long time).
I was given the book because I was asking a lot questions and I think they were tired of saying,
"You'll have to wait until you take the class".
Why did I leave?
I realized that TWI was a corrupt and dishonest organization and
I refused to be associated with such an organization any longer.
Brushstroke:
Please carefully consider what all the other posters have stated here.
I wish someone would have told me these same things before I signed the "green card" for PFAL and found myself in a cult.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pond
being involved isnt that bad cause I didnt believe anything was wrong and they were loving me.
it was when it was time to go or to question the wrong person about an idea that the torment began.
you can stay be happy life goes on.
or begin to question something but keep being involved thinking it will be different and YOU must be the one with wrong thoughts.. till you either change your mind and allow satan to stop using your thougts or ask a wrong question that cant be answered or "loved away" that is when it gets interesting for ya.
trust me
hahah yeah that is a good motive to stay if you think so .
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Belle tells it like it is. Insidious. Pernicious. Corrosive of thinking ability. You think you're thinking; you even enjoy thinking a little differently (very spiritual, you know). All the time you're alienating yourself from the rest of the world, your friends, your family. No, no. It's not brainwashing. It's washing the worldly thoughts from your brain.
Nobody decides to join a cult; but one day you look round, and there you are.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
HaHaHaHa!!
I actually remember when we used to use that as a come-back to people who accused us of being brainwashed.
(We really did think we were clever, though, didn't we?)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
My advice...Stay as far away from these twi people as possible.
No debates, no agreeing to attend a twi "social event", absolutely no classes...Once they realize that you are absolutely not interested in their group;/cult...they will distance themselves from you.
IMHO...having a relationship with a twi member is like placing a water moccasin snake in the bathtub before bathing...no thanks...life is too short for that kind of misery.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Hello Brushstroke. I see (on the other thread) that you have the Blue book.
That's a part of pfal. For a comparision of opinions/ scripture interpretation --
you might want TO TAKE A LOOK AT THIS.
Written by Raf, found on the front page of GreaseSpot Cafe.
Raf does a good job of hitting the nail on the head. :)
Might be handy to know, before speaking with her parents, eh?
Just a thot. ;)
Edited by dmillerLink to comment
Share on other sites
shiftthis
hi phil. i have attended way fellowships since 1980. was away for a few years on 2 different occasions,returned about 7 years ago and plan on staying for the bible that is taught. there were in the past some in leadership positions that should never have ben. these former leaders invented laws and tried to dictate how people lived there life. we have weeded all these bad leaders out and have a really great ministry. i personally know a lady that has ben coming to fellowship for a number of years that married a man that is not into GOD. the ministry didnt marry them they were married elsewere. this ladies new husband eventually came to check out fellowship but quit coming his reason he's not interested in GOD.he doesnt go to any church. the lady continues to come to fellowship and has said that her husband is a sweetheart. i met him and he seemed very nice. no one in the way objected to them getting married. there are married people who come to fellowship who have sposes that dont attend. the bible clearly says that if you are married to somenoe whos not into GOD and the 2 of you are happy together that you should stay together,and not divorce. however it says if the one whos not into GOD decides to leave than allow them to leave,thats what the bible says.my mom along with us kids grew up roman catholic. my dad quit going when i was little,my mom was always trying to get him to go. about 30 years later my dad decides to go to the roman catholic church. my mom and dad had a great marrige. one thing to keep in mind are your personal goals in life. this is a BIG deal. if one wants to enlist in the military and the other is not into that lifestyle than you shouldnt get married. i was listening to a woman named dr.luara on the radio and a woman called in complaining that she was trying to get her husband to quit being a over the road truck driver. she said he was a truck driver BEFORE they got married. that should have ben talked about BEFORE they were married and if the lady still had a problem with it than that would not be the man for her,and you go find someone else. hope this helps you, GOD bless you
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
So long as rivenbark is still in twi, let alone in the chiefest seat,
we can prove that "all" the leaders who did that are not out.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
So, shiftthis, not wanting anything to do with TWI = not being into God?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
penguin
I can vouch for that one. I remember being a part of a special, state-wide leadership meeting. In it, John R*pp called to check in with our state/region coordinator. R*pp had a "special message" for us from Rivenb*rk. It really was supposed to be a special, make sure you mention this to all the leadership in the state, message. (This was after Craig left.)
Her message was, among other things......
Are you ready?
Make sure we are preserve the integrity of the ...... MINISTRY!
It was, I think the first time I had a red flag go up in my mind. Not preserve the integrity of the Word--the integrity of the ministry. There wasn't a "thank you" for your service as fellowship coordinators, no uplifting message from the Word or even a inspiring verse.
I agree with Oak as well---before I left I heard 2 teachings from our Branch coordinator that stated if you weren't 100% sold-out to the Way, Jesus Christ wasn't your Lord. (Of course, not too much mention was made of Jesus Christ, the emphasis was how sold-out we were supposed to be.)
I realized after I left just a few years ago that while I was sold-out to the Way, I wasn't following Jesus Christ! I had been following men almost the whole time I was involved. It was so strange not being told what to study, what to teach, where to go...I hadn't realized how much I had structured my life around the Way.
I now have a true relationship with Jesus and a peace I didn't have while involved with twi. (And joy...more love...and lots of other things! I can be myself and still be loved by my brothers and sisters in Christ. I love that! I am allowed to have struggles and my siblings help me and pray with me. I guess we are trying to keep it REAL)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
The thing is....IF twi had a genuine change of heart...IF the leaders were now Godly, one would expect repentance. Part of which would be to apologize, to ask forgivness and attempt to make amends for the heinous acts committed against their innocent brothers and sisters....a Godly remorse for those whom were mistreated.
It`s all instructions given in the bible that they claim to venerate.
What I actually SEE is the same old thing...cover their bu tts legally, pretend that it never happened, or that the crimes are being over exaggerated, or that it is the victims faults.
I know that one doesn`t wish to face the possibility that those whom you have loved, supported, defended and prayed for are actually in truth opportunistic vultures whom will say anything that it takes to keep their few remaining members from leaving with the dollars that support their slimy little cult.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
Bump
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.