Hi, Phil. Welcome to the Spot. The first mocha Latte' is free!
There are a lot of folks here more learned and eloquent than I in explaining TWI's somewhat unusual beliefs. I will address what I remember about the teachings about Jesus Christ.
The Way International teaches that there is One God. They teach that Jesus Christ is completely human, but is God's only BEGOTTEN Son. They teach that God placed soul life (nephesh kai) in the fallopian tube of Mary as she was ovulating, that this soul life was in the form of a sperm cell that held all perfect genes, and thus Jesus's conception was without sex and without sin, because the life of the flesh is in the blood and the blood comes from the father's genetic contribution (which may yet be disproven via the human genome project). Thus, while Jesus was human, he was also the son of God, and thus had supernatural powers.
As far as the holy spirit, God is Holy. God is Spirit. Whenever this is capitalized in the Bible it refers to God. When not, it refers to the gift of holy spirit which God gives every individual at the moment the confess Jesus Christ as their lord and savior.
Now, that may not be a good explanation, and I don't want you to think it in any way reflects my personal beliefs. Victor Paul Wierwille, founder of TWI, once wrote a book "Jesus Christ is NOT God" which someone may sell you on E-Bay.
Other than doctrine, they are rather exclusive in their attitudes toward other Christians.
My experiences that caused me to leave are rather extensive. Some of them you can find by simply clicking on my name to the left of this post and reading some of my former posts. Ditto about everyone else in here.
Browse around the site. There are some good articles.
It's unusual that the doctrinal differences don't come between you and your girlfriend. From the twi perspective, it's usually very important that relationships are with folks who are likeminded doctrinally. Anyway, hope you get some answers.
Hi, Phil. Welcome to the Spot. The first mocha Latte' is free!
There are a lot of folks here more learned and eloquent than I in explaining TWI's somewhat unusual beliefs. I will address what I remember about the teachings about Jesus Christ.
The Way International teaches that there is One God. They teach that Jesus Christ is completely human, but is God's only BEGOTTEN Son. They teach that God placed soul life (nephesh kai) in the fallopian tube of Mary as she was ovulating, that this soul life was in the form of a sperm cell that held all perfect genes, and thus Jesus's conception was without sex and without sin, because the life of the flesh is in the blood and the blood comes from the father's genetic contribution (which may yet be disproven via the human genome project). Thus, while Jesus was human, he was also the son of God, and thus had supernatural powers.
As far as the holy spirit, God is Holy. God is Spirit. Whenever this is capitalized in the Bible it refers to God. When not, it refers to the gift of holy spirit which God gives every individual at the moment the confess Jesus Christ as their lord and savior.
Now, that may not be a good explanation, and I don't want you to think it in any way reflects my personal beliefs. Victor Paul Wierwille, founder of TWI, once wrote a book "Jesus Christ is NOT God" which someone may sell you on E-Bay.
Other than doctrine, they are rather exclusive in their attitudes toward other Christians.
My experiences that caused me to leave are rather extensive. Some of them you can find by simply clicking on my name to the left of this post and reading some of my former posts. Ditto about everyone else in here.
Browse around the site. There are some good articles.
Enjoy the latte'!
WG
Hm...I don't understand that idea of Jesus' conception at all.
Eh, anyway, thanks for the latte! Do you guys happen to have chai tea? :)
Phil,
Welcome to GS cafe.
It's unusual that the doctrinal differences don't come between you and your girlfriend. From the twi perspective, it's usually very important that relationships are with folks who are likeminded doctrinally. Anyway, hope you get some answers.
Well, I think one of the main reasons why is because of the situation she and I are in. We're both 18, we met online, and we haven't actually met in person but we consider ourselves to be together...aagghh it's complicated. I'm flying up to see her in May. But anyway, doctrinal differences may prove to be a challenge later on. We'll see, I suppose.
Thank you all for your generous welcome, and I'll take a look at some the articles here.
Many a wise and wary person has been lured into their deceptive snare.
The lifestyle they promote is perhaps even more destructive than their interpretation of The Bible.
One of their core beliefs is that you can physically change things in the real world(both good and bad) by a mental process called "the law of believing". Woe unto the person who fails to operate it "properly".
There is an audio on the homepage that may give you some idea what it is about.
edited to note that there is a chat room here also.
First off, at the risk of sounding paranoid, please go back and delete that reference to where your girlfriend is located. It may seem strange, but the way ministry has full-time people whose job is to scan this site and copy anything they may later want to use against someone. You'll understand this clearly soon enough.
At this point already, don't be surprised if the next time you hear from her your girlfriend tells you not to visit this site, that we're just a bunch of disgruntled "cop outs" here.
Your girlfriend is involved in a cult. They are extremely manipulative and if her "leadership" knew she was dating someone outside what they consider the household of God (only twi people), they will no doubt make it difficult for her to see you.
I am so sorry I totally didn't think about your girlfriend. There are actually people who have posted here that they were declared "mark and avoid" which means The Way kicks you out and no one from that organization will ever again acknowledge your sorry existence, because their posts were monitored and traced back, via personal information they posted, to them. Your girlfriend is very likely not even supposed to be online, let alone doing any online dating! We may sound a bit paranoid, and I can't remember the posters who went through that, but it has happened more than once.
I agree that TWI is a cult, not perhaps a doomsday cult, but very self protective, and demanding of its associates' absolute loyalty and unquestioning obedience. There are those who will strongly disagree, but they either remain steadfastly clueless as to the mechanisms of mind control, or just like to argue.
I wonder if your girlfriend may not be a bit disenchanted to even be online as you have described.
PS: The conception of Jesus Christ thing is something I never understood either. Most people bust out laughing when I try to explain it.
I'm not sure where it came from. Possibly someone's imagination.. It's pretty incomprehensible to most Christians.
Waysider,
I saw that picture! It was YOU who stole the FLO lunch baskets!
She might seem OK with your doctrinal difference now. If she's a committed "believer", she will try to talk you in to taking classes, going to fellowship. If you don't, be prepared to get dumped. If she is looking to get out, then you might be OK. If she seems she does want out of TWI, send her here. This place has been a wonderful place to get some frustrations vented about TWI.
Hi. My name is Phil. I was wondering what TWI teaches, what its' doctrines and beliefs are. I'm an Eastern Orthodox Christian myself, but my girlfriend is a member of TWI, and we've had a few discussions about religion/politics before, and I can see that we apparently view things very differently as far as things like Jesus Christ being God-incarnate (or not), the Trinity, and a few other things. I don't believe religious differences should come between two people who are in a relationship, and they don't come between us. Hah...God bless her...Stephanie and I can talk about anything and we still love each other the same. Even so, these differences I find a little odd and disconcerting as I haven't come into contact with a lot of Christian groups that don't believe that God is a unity of three Persons, or that Jesus isn't God, or that believe in speaking in tongues as a visible manifestation of your salvation, etc. I guess it's evident that I do know a little about what The Way believes, but I'd like to get a much clearer picture.
So, who better to come than to you guys? What exactly does The Way teach and where does it get its teachings from? And if you don't mind sharing, what were your experiences in The Way and what made you leave?
Thanks! :)
~Phil~
Hello. I'll call you Brushstroke. I highly recommend you avoid specifics on this messageboard.
There were-and probably still are-people assigned by twi to read all the posts here, and assemble files on the posters
they might want to go after. More than one person IN twi was kicked out once they pieced together who they were.
We call the people who do that the WAYGB. :)
As for the differences, there's the DOCTRINAL differences, official and UNofficial,
and the PRACTICAL differences, official and-especially- UNofficial.
When it comes to twi, you will be pressured to CONFORM or LEAVE, and spouses were ORDERED to divorce
a spouse who they were planning on kicking out. In other cases, both spouses were kicked out, instead.
Don't count on ever getting policy IN WRITING, so you can learn them and depend on it, either.
They're fond of using unwritten rules and denying they used them.
(They denied kicking people out, etc.)
This messageboard has a Doctrinal section. If you want to have discussions on whether their Doctrines on the Bible
are accurate, please start them there. Some of us are capable of mature discussion on them, and you can count
on DIFFERENCES OF OPINION on each doctrine you ask about.
This is no easy thing you're facing right now, and I hope very, very much that it goes well for you and your girlfriend. I hope you're LISTENING CLOSELY to all this well intended advice.
One thing I'll add, even among the posters here there is a wide variety of opinions of what is WAY INTERNATIONAL doctrines. There is even a wider array of opinions as to what is WAY INTERNATIONAL intentions.
I am certain that there are many folks here who wish you well however. There are definitly many things to be wary of that concern The Way International and I hope that you are up for it.
Welcome to the Spot. I also wish you and your girlfriend well.
TWI doctrine...hmmm....there were 4 crucified with Jesus not two...the Old Testament is not worth reading as it pertains to a different administration...ditto the last comment for Revelations. Woman are inferior spiritually and must be controlled. Children are brought up in the nurture of the Lord by belittling them and beating them when they squirm during a two hour fellowship. The word of your twig coordinator or any other coordinator is tantamount to God's holy word and must be obeyed without question. That's all I care to think about or remember right now.
Why I left...I was dismissed from the Way Corps because I questioned leadership. Then I was given the stewardship of an Area (half of a state). Later I walked away because TWI was getting worse about teaching innacuracies. A couple years later my mother was kicked out because she refused to stop talking to me. She was kicked out by my brother.
Those that tell you about Mark and Avoid and about being kicked out arent stretching the truth. TWI is a very controlling cult. Beware!
That's the long and short of it for me anyway. I really do wish you and your girlfriend all the luck in the world.
I grew up in the Way. I also have family still involved. So, my perspective on this my be a little more current and true to the experience of an 18 year old. My experiences as a teen in the Way (twi) were somewhat less intense than that of my twenties. I'm 33 now and have been out for about eight years. I've been in contact with a number of twi teens on myspace for a couple of years now and many of the things they say are the same ol' same ol' but on the other hand there is a more accepting nature amoung quite a few of them. I would attribute this to a number of things including a slight change in the PR of twi in recent years (loosening the grip a bit), a cultural change (more "open minded"), access to the internets, lack of deep interaction with the twi and among other things the naivete' of youth.
Since the last big implosion of twi, the sex scandals of their last charismatic leader, things have toned down quite a bit in terms of the amount of intrusion into their followers lives. This of course, as it did before, varies with what the temperament and zeal of the local leader is. So, if what some of the things that the above posters have said sound a little outrageous and apparently untrue upon your initial interaction and examination of twi, believe me, they are not. Things, as I said, have toned down a bit but the underlying doctrinal and practical issues have not been addressed and therefore in time their effects will rear their ugly heads again.
These sex scandals, the recent ones and the ones of the former and founding leader, are generally quickly swept under the rug and categorically dismissed. They did happen about a decade ago. People in twi that are your age don't really remember much about twi at that time. These scandals have/had a doctrinal basis and were not just the actions of overreaching, sociopathic, megalomaniacs (they were that too), but the actions backed by a twisting of biblical doctrine.
When I was 18 I thought I knew more about the Bible (or accurate Bible) than pretty much any preacher, minister, or clergy. I was mistaken to say the least. My view was one born from a narrow scope of Christianity, willful ignorance, and just plain stupidity. So, I thought I was pretty hardcore. Still, unlike some, I was pretty accepting of others and didn't carry the hate in my heart as some of the leaders clearly did. This continued as I got older and went to college and it was perhaps the begining of my challenges with leaders.
When I was a teen and in my early twenties there were not a lot of local "Way believers" in my area my age so I did date outside "the ministry." My parents were leaders, but were not hard a$$es like some and they didn't confront me as a teen. I'm sure they assumed as I got older I would find a nice young Wayfer. As I got older though, the pressure whether explicit or implicit was there a lot more and I either did my best to get the young ladies I dated into twi or I kept it secret. Not long before I left, I did date someone long distance in TWI. My local pressures and my apparent and later intended direction of leaving TWI seemed too much for that relationship to withstand in my mind and it didn't last. That is the ultimate outcome of "interfaith" relationships in TWI. They can not last with the wayfer getting taught and directed to get increasingly involved and committed to "the ministry." (I don't know if you have noticed it yet, but that term in twi is not used as a "ministry" of this or that, like a youth ministry or an outreach ministry, but as THE ministry, the one and only true ministry.) As an Advanced Class Grad (the third of the Way of Abundance and Power Class three part series [formerly the Power For Abundant Living PFAL class]) we were instructed to not date below our own spiritual level. In other words, as an Ad. Class Grad I was at a higher spiritual plane that someone who was a Foundational or Intermediate grad. In the Corps (the Way's training program for those that want or think they want to be lifetime leaders) this is no longer a suggestion to be obeyed but an enforced requirement. At 18, and the last couple of high school years, I did not date, because of my internal struggle of dating someone who was not a "believer." When I got to college I quickly but temporarily put that struggle aside. :D
So the simple fact that you are in an internet relationship with someone in TWI tells me that your "girlfriend" is not yet that seriously involved in TWI. I doubt the seriousness of the idea of leaders keeping tabs on the relations of all their teenagers. But if they did, I would think that regardless of how they left TWI, whether voluntary or involuntary, whether peacefully or in a raging fury of accusation and screaming, I think that nearly everyone here will agree that leaving TWI was the best thing that ever happened to them.
SO, I would not be swayed in your internet love , but do not get involved with TWI and do not go into this thinking you are going to get married. That will almost most definitely not happen. I know between the age of 18 and 25 I thought I was going to marry three different people. Thankfully that didn't happen. I won't tell you who to love, just to be careful. The internet is a great thing, but so is good ol' fashioned dating.
If you would like to PM me, feel free. I didn't really scratch the surface of your questions (there is a lot to them). My "story", in part at least, is here. You have to get past all the inside "way-speak" in a lot of it and some of my weird humor but it gives some insight on someone who grew up in TWI, written from the perspective someone who had only been out a year or two. So there is a lot of anger in there. I can say I have moved on quite a bit, but re-reading that still brought tears to my eyes a couple of times.
You have truly stumbled upon a resource to help answer your questions, which by the way, take a lot of faith and courage just to ask.
I regret to inform you that at this time we no longer have access to those classes which could have answered your questions about TWI...
I am of the opinion that so many have sacrificed so much for so little in return that the cost of reproducing what we paid for in blood, sweat toil and tears would be
an affront to decency and create more harm than good...
You will find much of the information you need here, through many sources, and it will not cost you any money!
I grew up in the Way. I also have family still involved. So, my perspective on this my be a little more current and true to the experience of an 18 year old. My experiences as a teen in the Way (twi) were somewhat less intense than that of my twenties. I'm 33 now and have been out for about eight years. I've been in contact with a number of twi teens on myspace for a couple of years now and many of the things they say are the same ol' same ol' but on the other hand there is a more accepting nature amoung quite a few of them. I would attribute this to a number of things including a slight change in the PR of twi in recent years (loosening the grip a bit), a cultural change (more "open minded"), access to the internets, lack of deep interaction with the twi and among other things the naivete' of youth.
Since the last big implosion of twi, the sex scandals of their last charismatic leader, things have toned down quite a bit in terms of the amount of intrusion into their followers lives. This of course, as it did before, varies with what the temperament and zeal of the local leader is. So, if what some of the things that the above posters have said sound a little outrageous and apparently untrue upon your initial interaction and examination of twi, believe me, they are not. Things, as I said, have toned down a bit but the underlying doctrinal and practical issues have not been addressed and therefore in time their effects will rear their ugly heads again.
These sex scandals, the recent ones and the ones of the former and founding leader, are generally quickly swept under the rug and categorically dismissed. They did happen about a decade ago. People in twi that are your age don't really remember much about twi at that time. These scandals have/had a doctrinal basis and were not just the actions of overreaching, sociopathic, megalomaniacs (they were that too), but the actions backed by a twisting of biblical doctrine.
When I was 18 I thought I knew more about the Bible (or accurate Bible) than pretty much any preacher, minister, or clergy. I was mistaken to say the least. My view was one born from a narrow scope of Christianity, willful ignorance, and just plain stupidity. So, I thought I was pretty hardcore. Still, unlike some, I was pretty accepting of others and didn't carry the hate in my heart as some of the leaders clearly did. This continued as I got older and went to college and it was perhaps the begining of my challenges with leaders.
When I was a teen and in my early twenties there were not a lot of local "Way believers" in my area my age so I did date outside "the ministry." My parents were leaders, but were not hard a$$es like some and they didn't confront me as a teen. I'm sure they assumed as I got older I would find a nice young Wayfer. As I got older though, the pressure whether explicit or implicit was there a lot more and I either did my best to get the young ladies I dated into twi or I kept it secret. Not long before I left, I did date someone long distance in TWI. My local pressures and my apparent and later intended direction of leaving TWI seemed too much for that relationship to withstand in my mind and it didn't last. That is the ultimate outcome of "interfaith" relationships in TWI. They can not last with the wayfer getting taught and directed to get increasingly involved and committed to "the ministry." (I don't know if you have noticed it yet, but that term in twi is not used as a "ministry" of this or that, like a youth ministry or an outreach ministry, but as THE ministry, the one and only true ministry.) As an Advanced Class Grad (the third of the Way of Abundance and Power Class three part series [formerly the Power For Abundant Living PFAL class]) we were instructed to not date below our own spiritual level. In other words, as an Ad. Class Grad I was at a higher spiritual plane that someone who was a Foundational or Intermediate grad. In the Corps (the Way's training program for those that want or think they want to be lifetime leaders) this is no longer a suggestion to be obeyed but an enforced requirement. At 18, and the last couple of high school years, I did not date, because of my internal struggle of dating someone who was not a "believer." When I got to college I quickly but temporarily put that struggle aside. :D
So the simple fact that you are in an internet relationship with someone in TWI tells me that your "girlfriend" is not yet that seriously involved in TWI. I doubt the seriousness of the idea of leaders keeping tabs on the relations of all their teenagers. But if they did, I would think that regardless of how they left TWI, whether voluntary or involuntary, whether peacefully or in a raging fury of accusation and screaming, I think that nearly everyone here will agree that leaving TWI was the best thing that ever happened to them.
SO, I would not be swayed in your internet love , but do not get involved with TWI and do not go into this thinking you are going to get married. That will almost most definitely not happen. I know between the age of 18 and 25 I thought I was going to marry three different people. Thankfully that didn't happen. I won't tell you who to love, just to be careful. The internet is a great thing, but so is good ol' fashioned dating.
If you would like to PM me, feel free. I didn't really scratch the surface of your questions (there is a lot to them). My "story", in part at least, is here. You have to get past all the inside "way-speak" in a lot of it and some of my weird humor but it gives some insight on someone who grew up in TWI, written from the perspective someone who had only been out a year or two. So there is a lot of anger in there. I can say I have moved on quite a bit, but re-reading that still brought tears to my eyes a couple of times.
peace
"Resident art freak," eh? Funny, I'm actually an artist lol.
Anyway, what you have said here has helped. It really describes our situation as I perceive it. When she and I first met in a chatroom (the FrostWire chat server, if any of you are familiar with it), it was actually in the wake of a religious discussion in the main room on there. When she and I started talking about religion and spirituality one-on-one, she was very nice, but I swear I had this gut feeling that the things she was saying were not coming out of her own mouth. It appeared to me that the things she was saying were just things Wierwille or other TWI leaders may have said through the years. I can't quote anything as I don't remember exactly what she said, but she mentioned things like the law of believing, or the idiom of permission, and an interesting one was "God in Christ in us." Typical Way terminology, I'm learning.
Okay, so flashback to nearly 9 months ago. So here we are in July, out of the chatroom and on MSN Messenger. We clicked with each other immediately. We didn't talk much about our religious beliefs after that, I assumed the terms she used (which even at this point I KNEW were not her own) were simply something that your typical evangelical Protestant church had taught her. Maybe she was nondenominational, maybe Baptist or Presbyterian, who knows? But then we started talking about the nature of Jesus, was He divine or not? Is He God? I noticed she had a clear belief that He is not God-incarnate. I found this...odd...to say the least. I thought "Well, I know she's not a Jehovah's Witness, but what church does she belong to?" So we talked for awhile about this (and we seem to be able to talk about things like this and not get mad or angry at each other or have our feelings hurt, which is good) and we just agreed to disagree--we still do.
So, we're talking on the phone about two weeks after we meet online. A couple months down the road, she wants to send me a book, titled The Bible Tells Me So, she says it's a very uplifting book since we met in the wake of something that happened to me which I would rather not speak the details of, but to make a long story short, what happened before she and I met led me spiraling into depression. But okay! Fastforward to January, just a few months ago from today. She tells me she's pretty much liked me as more than a friend for quite awhile, almost since we met. Oddly enough I felt the same way, so here we are...trying to figure out where to go with this. Shortly before this, back in December, I said I would come visit her, and this confirmed my visit. I'm visiting her in May. In wake of what I have seen here at this forum, I expect to have an interesting discussion with her parents regarding TWI, because they seem far more involved in it than she does. She and her siblings, I believe, just go along with what they've been raised to believe and aren't really so seriously involved in the organization itself, despite the fact that she is very devoted to her faith and they have a fellowship meeting every Sunday. Sometimes she's talked about going to her friend's house and one of the higher-ups being there and leading their fellowship meeting. I guess her friend's family is more heavily involved.
And don't worry lindyhopper, she and I don't have plans to get married. We're not even thinking about that at this point. It's kind of serious between us, but not that serious. I mean, hell, we haven't even met in person. Her parents...they're the ones that I'm worried about. For some reason I have this image of her dad and I getting into a theological debate while I'm there. What I would like to know though, is how should I approach her parents if they ask me anything pertaining to TWI or of my beliefs as an Orthodox Christian? What if they ask me to join? :blink:
Her parents...they're the ones that I'm worried about. For some reason I have this image of her dad and I getting into a theological debate while I'm there. What I would like to know though, is how should I approach her parents if they ask me anything pertaining to TWI or of my beliefs as an Orthodox Christian? What if they ask me to join? :blink:
With most of the people still voluntarily in (and not in just because their family is in),
what they "think" is whatever twi tells them to think.
In short, ask one insider a bunch of questions, write down the answers,
then ask a different insider the same questions, and you'll get identical (and identically-phrased) answers.
So, the parents will probably recite the "buzz-words" that twi gave entirely. Don't expect there to be some
independent thought-just memorized "buzz-words." (Some people did that even after they left, and some STILL
do that NOW.)
If you get into a "theological debate", their questions-and answers- will conform.
Naturally, this also means they are predictable. (Seen one, you've seen them all.)
They're not going to change just because I posted this because they'd need some competent theologians
to do that-and they ran all of them off in the 70s, 80s and early 90s.
Whether or not they ASK you to join, you will be pressured to join.
Here's one sample approach.
First, they will be friendly, open, and non-pressuring.
They will invite you places.
Then, as time passes, you will NEED to pass certain standards to stick around.
Social pressures will be placed on you (and others) if this doesn't work.
(They used to kick people out if that didn't work.)
What I would like to know though, is how should I approach her parents if they ask me anything pertaining to TWI or of my beliefs as an Orthodox Christian? What if they ask me to join? :blink:
~Phil~
Phil,
I'll give my 2 cents worth... I think the first step is for you to decide if you want to learn about the bible "the twi way". Be honest with them and yourself, whatever you choose. You already know that twi is a big part of your girlfriend and her parents life. If you prefer not to learn more about twi at this time, then I'd be honest about it and move in a different direction as soon as possible. But if you'd like to check twi out for yourself, go ahead. See for yourself if its something you can live with. If after checking them out its not your cup of tea, then depart knowing that you have done the best you can do in that situation but its just not for you.
A couple months down the road, she wants to send me a book, titled The Bible Tells Me So, she says it's a very uplifting book since we met in the wake of something that happened to me which I would rather not speak the details of, but to make a long story short, what happened before she and I met led me spiraling into depression.
There's the hook I was waiting to hear about... the first step that she offered to you in good faith, because she has been raised in this stuff and doesn't know anything else. The bottom line is: most folks in TWI are trained to believe they are right and everything else isn't worth talking about, except to point out how wrong it is, or to convert someone. Period.
I expect to have an interesting discussion with her parents regarding TWI, because they seem far more involved in it than she does. She and her siblings, I believe, just go along with what they've been raised to believe and aren't really so seriously involved in the organization itself, despite the fact that she is very devoted to her faith and they have a fellowship meeting every Sunday.
Ooh, can I please be a fly on the wall for this conversation? You have hit the situation right on the head... her folks are seriously into twi, and the kids just go along because their parents tell them to... But what you need to realize is that most twi parents don't have a CLUE that their kids aren't that into the ministry. Not a CLUE! They are so committed to the group themselves, and they believe they have done all the right things to raise their kids, they just cannot, will not, consider that their kids are unhappy, uninspired, see the falseness and hypocrasy, etc... nope, not their kids. And they will not appreciate you saying it about their daughter, you can be sure of that!
By the way, I say all these things from experience having been a parent both inside and outside twi, with an ex who is still in for life.
My final advice -- there is a lot of wisdom and experience to be had on this forum. Read and evaluate carefully. Walk your own path but ALWAYS keep an eye out for the hook!! The Way International functions by incremental steps... first read this book (the blue book: The Bible Tells Me So, amazingly enough) Then come to fellowships. Then take this class. Then tithe and abundantly share (over the tithe). Then... and the steps just keep on coming. Those of us who spent 20 years in the group and went through almost every class, every special event, every training opportunity can tell you we were still treated like we knew nothing and needed to humble ourselves to the leadership's instructions and keep stepping along those steps... keep proving your spirituality, keep proving your commitment, blah-blah-blah... it never ends. Never.
Good luck in your choices and your life's destiny. The fact that you are checking out all sides is a good indication you will do fine in life. Just trust your gut, and don't let anyone else override your own best judgement and intuition!!
And of course, if you spend enough time and money checking it out, and listening to their presentations of what they sell as"God's Wonderful Matchless Word, Rightly Divided According to Usage, and Held Forth in the Exceeding Great and Glorious Light of the Present Truth" (as no one has known it or held it forth since the first century), your mind will be so controlled by "WayBrain" that no matter what they say or do to you, you will always think they are right.
Oh, but it's your free will and your decision, right? You can walk away any time you want, can't you?
WRONG-O KEEBLER! These people are experts at so subtly controlling you, by suggestion, innuendo, cajoling, lies, threats and intimidation, that you are in over your head before you know it, just like the frog in the kettle of water!
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Watered Garden
Hi, Phil. Welcome to the Spot. The first mocha Latte' is free!
There are a lot of folks here more learned and eloquent than I in explaining TWI's somewhat unusual beliefs. I will address what I remember about the teachings about Jesus Christ.
The Way International teaches that there is One God. They teach that Jesus Christ is completely human, but is God's only BEGOTTEN Son. They teach that God placed soul life (nephesh kai) in the fallopian tube of Mary as she was ovulating, that this soul life was in the form of a sperm cell that held all perfect genes, and thus Jesus's conception was without sex and without sin, because the life of the flesh is in the blood and the blood comes from the father's genetic contribution (which may yet be disproven via the human genome project). Thus, while Jesus was human, he was also the son of God, and thus had supernatural powers.
As far as the holy spirit, God is Holy. God is Spirit. Whenever this is capitalized in the Bible it refers to God. When not, it refers to the gift of holy spirit which God gives every individual at the moment the confess Jesus Christ as their lord and savior.
Now, that may not be a good explanation, and I don't want you to think it in any way reflects my personal beliefs. Victor Paul Wierwille, founder of TWI, once wrote a book "Jesus Christ is NOT God" which someone may sell you on E-Bay.
Other than doctrine, they are rather exclusive in their attitudes toward other Christians.
My experiences that caused me to leave are rather extensive. Some of them you can find by simply clicking on my name to the left of this post and reading some of my former posts. Ditto about everyone else in here.
Browse around the site. There are some good articles.
Enjoy the latte'!
WG
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oldiesman
Phil,
Welcome to GS cafe.
It's unusual that the doctrinal differences don't come between you and your girlfriend. From the twi perspective, it's usually very important that relationships are with folks who are likeminded doctrinally. Anyway, hope you get some answers.
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cman
Welcome to GreaseSpotCafe Phil!
You have already stated what the way intl. teaches about Jesus Christ.
Though they do not know him.
What people here believe or think varies greatly.
But most of us get along fine, having seen the results of narrow mindedness.
I think it's great they you two love each other beyond some church doctrine.
But just be aware that it is a strong possibility that TWI will force your girlfriend to choose between you and TWI.
Personally I think she should choose you and get out of TWI.
Or just plain quit going to their stuff.
They claim there is no membership.
Which is a lie.
And not the only thing that will go against common sense.
It is done slowly to try to separate you from sound thinking.
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waysider
Welcome, Phil
Where to start?
You might try the main menu and click on some of the links or listen to episode #8.
That's as good a place as any I guess.
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Brushstroke
Hm...I don't understand that idea of Jesus' conception at all.
Eh, anyway, thanks for the latte! Do you guys happen to have chai tea? :)
Well, I think one of the main reasons why is because of the situation she and I are in. We're both 18, we met online, and we haven't actually met in person but we consider ourselves to be together...aagghh it's complicated. I'm flying up to see her in May. But anyway, doctrinal differences may prove to be a challenge later on. We'll see, I suppose.
Thank you all for your generous welcome, and I'll take a look at some the articles here.
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waysider
Be careful, Phil
Many a wise and wary person has been lured into their deceptive snare.
The lifestyle they promote is perhaps even more destructive than their interpretation of The Bible.
One of their core beliefs is that you can physically change things in the real world(both good and bad) by a mental process called "the law of believing". Woe unto the person who fails to operate it "properly".
There is an audio on the homepage that may give you some idea what it is about.
edited to note that there is a chat room here also.
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bowtwi
Welcome to GreaseSpotCafe!
First off, at the risk of sounding paranoid, please go back and delete that reference to where your girlfriend is located. It may seem strange, but the way ministry has full-time people whose job is to scan this site and copy anything they may later want to use against someone. You'll understand this clearly soon enough.
At this point already, don't be surprised if the next time you hear from her your girlfriend tells you not to visit this site, that we're just a bunch of disgruntled "cop outs" here.
Your girlfriend is involved in a cult. They are extremely manipulative and if her "leadership" knew she was dating someone outside what they consider the household of God (only twi people), they will no doubt make it difficult for her to see you.
For my personal twi experience, please see http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=1400. There are a lot of our stories there in the My Story forum of this site.
Is this more your pleasure? As WG said, the first drink's on the house.
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Watered Garden
Phil,
I am so sorry I totally didn't think about your girlfriend. There are actually people who have posted here that they were declared "mark and avoid" which means The Way kicks you out and no one from that organization will ever again acknowledge your sorry existence, because their posts were monitored and traced back, via personal information they posted, to them. Your girlfriend is very likely not even supposed to be online, let alone doing any online dating! We may sound a bit paranoid, and I can't remember the posters who went through that, but it has happened more than once.
I agree that TWI is a cult, not perhaps a doomsday cult, but very self protective, and demanding of its associates' absolute loyalty and unquestioning obedience. There are those who will strongly disagree, but they either remain steadfastly clueless as to the mechanisms of mind control, or just like to argue.
I wonder if your girlfriend may not be a bit disenchanted to even be online as you have described.
PS: The conception of Jesus Christ thing is something I never understood either. Most people bust out laughing when I try to explain it.
I'm not sure where it came from. Possibly someone's imagination.. It's pretty incomprehensible to most Christians.
Waysider,
I saw that picture! It was YOU who stole the FLO lunch baskets!
WG
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waysider
Shhhhh!
No one else knows!
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Nottawayfer
She might seem OK with your doctrinal difference now. If she's a committed "believer", she will try to talk you in to taking classes, going to fellowship. If you don't, be prepared to get dumped. If she is looking to get out, then you might be OK. If she seems she does want out of TWI, send her here. This place has been a wonderful place to get some frustrations vented about TWI.
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WordWolf
Hello. I'll call you Brushstroke. I highly recommend you avoid specifics on this messageboard.
There were-and probably still are-people assigned by twi to read all the posts here, and assemble files on the posters
they might want to go after. More than one person IN twi was kicked out once they pieced together who they were.
We call the people who do that the WAYGB. :)
As for the differences, there's the DOCTRINAL differences, official and UNofficial,
and the PRACTICAL differences, official and-especially- UNofficial.
When it comes to twi, you will be pressured to CONFORM or LEAVE, and spouses were ORDERED to divorce
a spouse who they were planning on kicking out. In other cases, both spouses were kicked out, instead.
Don't count on ever getting policy IN WRITING, so you can learn them and depend on it, either.
They're fond of using unwritten rules and denying they used them.
(They denied kicking people out, etc.)
This messageboard has a Doctrinal section. If you want to have discussions on whether their Doctrines on the Bible
are accurate, please start them there. Some of us are capable of mature discussion on them, and you can count
on DIFFERENCES OF OPINION on each doctrine you ask about.
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JeffSjo
God bless you and your girlfriend Brushstroke,
This is no easy thing you're facing right now, and I hope very, very much that it goes well for you and your girlfriend. I hope you're LISTENING CLOSELY to all this well intended advice.
One thing I'll add, even among the posters here there is a wide variety of opinions of what is WAY INTERNATIONAL doctrines. There is even a wider array of opinions as to what is WAY INTERNATIONAL intentions.
I am certain that there are many folks here who wish you well however. There are definitly many things to be wary of that concern The Way International and I hope that you are up for it.
(edited for clarity)
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cheranne
b.s. and it stinks!!!
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polar bear
You friend will be hounded until she makes you a convert or she leaves you. You can run now or wait and see.
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cman
If you just want some stuff on the way, here-
http://groups.google.com/group/free.christ...22bb1ed81bb15c2
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Eyesopen
Hi Phil,
Welcome to the Spot. I also wish you and your girlfriend well.
TWI doctrine...hmmm....there were 4 crucified with Jesus not two...the Old Testament is not worth reading as it pertains to a different administration...ditto the last comment for Revelations. Woman are inferior spiritually and must be controlled. Children are brought up in the nurture of the Lord by belittling them and beating them when they squirm during a two hour fellowship. The word of your twig coordinator or any other coordinator is tantamount to God's holy word and must be obeyed without question. That's all I care to think about or remember right now.
Why I left...I was dismissed from the Way Corps because I questioned leadership. Then I was given the stewardship of an Area (half of a state). Later I walked away because TWI was getting worse about teaching innacuracies. A couple years later my mother was kicked out because she refused to stop talking to me. She was kicked out by my brother.
Those that tell you about Mark and Avoid and about being kicked out arent stretching the truth. TWI is a very controlling cult. Beware!
That's the long and short of it for me anyway. I really do wish you and your girlfriend all the luck in the world.
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lindyhopper
Hi Phil.
Oh the joys of the web.
Chai? You're my kind of guy.
I grew up in the Way. I also have family still involved. So, my perspective on this my be a little more current and true to the experience of an 18 year old. My experiences as a teen in the Way (twi) were somewhat less intense than that of my twenties. I'm 33 now and have been out for about eight years. I've been in contact with a number of twi teens on myspace for a couple of years now and many of the things they say are the same ol' same ol' but on the other hand there is a more accepting nature amoung quite a few of them. I would attribute this to a number of things including a slight change in the PR of twi in recent years (loosening the grip a bit), a cultural change (more "open minded"), access to the internets, lack of deep interaction with the twi and among other things the naivete' of youth.
Since the last big implosion of twi, the sex scandals of their last charismatic leader, things have toned down quite a bit in terms of the amount of intrusion into their followers lives. This of course, as it did before, varies with what the temperament and zeal of the local leader is. So, if what some of the things that the above posters have said sound a little outrageous and apparently untrue upon your initial interaction and examination of twi, believe me, they are not. Things, as I said, have toned down a bit but the underlying doctrinal and practical issues have not been addressed and therefore in time their effects will rear their ugly heads again.
These sex scandals, the recent ones and the ones of the former and founding leader, are generally quickly swept under the rug and categorically dismissed. They did happen about a decade ago. People in twi that are your age don't really remember much about twi at that time. These scandals have/had a doctrinal basis and were not just the actions of overreaching, sociopathic, megalomaniacs (they were that too), but the actions backed by a twisting of biblical doctrine.
When I was 18 I thought I knew more about the Bible (or accurate Bible) than pretty much any preacher, minister, or clergy. I was mistaken to say the least. My view was one born from a narrow scope of Christianity, willful ignorance, and just plain stupidity. So, I thought I was pretty hardcore. Still, unlike some, I was pretty accepting of others and didn't carry the hate in my heart as some of the leaders clearly did. This continued as I got older and went to college and it was perhaps the begining of my challenges with leaders.
When I was a teen and in my early twenties there were not a lot of local "Way believers" in my area my age so I did date outside "the ministry." My parents were leaders, but were not hard a$$es like some and they didn't confront me as a teen. I'm sure they assumed as I got older I would find a nice young Wayfer. As I got older though, the pressure whether explicit or implicit was there a lot more and I either did my best to get the young ladies I dated into twi or I kept it secret. Not long before I left, I did date someone long distance in TWI. My local pressures and my apparent and later intended direction of leaving TWI seemed too much for that relationship to withstand in my mind and it didn't last. That is the ultimate outcome of "interfaith" relationships in TWI. They can not last with the wayfer getting taught and directed to get increasingly involved and committed to "the ministry." (I don't know if you have noticed it yet, but that term in twi is not used as a "ministry" of this or that, like a youth ministry or an outreach ministry, but as THE ministry, the one and only true ministry.) As an Advanced Class Grad (the third of the Way of Abundance and Power Class three part series [formerly the Power For Abundant Living PFAL class]) we were instructed to not date below our own spiritual level. In other words, as an Ad. Class Grad I was at a higher spiritual plane that someone who was a Foundational or Intermediate grad. In the Corps (the Way's training program for those that want or think they want to be lifetime leaders) this is no longer a suggestion to be obeyed but an enforced requirement. At 18, and the last couple of high school years, I did not date, because of my internal struggle of dating someone who was not a "believer." When I got to college I quickly but temporarily put that struggle aside. :D
So the simple fact that you are in an internet relationship with someone in TWI tells me that your "girlfriend" is not yet that seriously involved in TWI. I doubt the seriousness of the idea of leaders keeping tabs on the relations of all their teenagers. But if they did, I would think that regardless of how they left TWI, whether voluntary or involuntary, whether peacefully or in a raging fury of accusation and screaming, I think that nearly everyone here will agree that leaving TWI was the best thing that ever happened to them.
SO, I would not be swayed in your internet love
, but do not get involved with TWI and do not go into this thinking you are going to get married. That will almost most definitely not happen. I know between the age of 18 and 25 I thought I was going to marry three different people. 
Thankfully that didn't happen. I won't tell you who to love, just to be careful. The internet is a great thing, but so is good ol' fashioned dating.
If you would like to PM me, feel free. I didn't really scratch the surface of your questions (there is a lot to them). My "story", in part at least, is here. You have to get past all the inside "way-speak" in a lot of it and some of my weird humor but it gives some insight on someone who grew up in TWI, written from the perspective someone who had only been out a year or two. So there is a lot of anger in there. I can say I have moved on quite a bit, but re-reading that still brought tears to my eyes a couple of times.
peace
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egilkent
Dear Brushtroke-
You have truly stumbled upon a resource to help answer your questions, which by the way, take a lot of faith and courage just to ask.
I regret to inform you that at this time we no longer have access to those classes which could have answered your questions about TWI...
I am of the opinion that so many have sacrificed so much for so little in return that the cost of reproducing what we paid for in blood, sweat toil and tears would be
an affront to decency and create more harm than good...
You will find much of the information you need here, through many sources, and it will not cost you any money!
Best wishes!
Egilkent
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Brushstroke
"Resident art freak," eh? Funny, I'm actually an artist lol.
Anyway, what you have said here has helped. It really describes our situation as I perceive it. When she and I first met in a chatroom (the FrostWire chat server, if any of you are familiar with it), it was actually in the wake of a religious discussion in the main room on there. When she and I started talking about religion and spirituality one-on-one, she was very nice, but I swear I had this gut feeling that the things she was saying were not coming out of her own mouth. It appeared to me that the things she was saying were just things Wierwille or other TWI leaders may have said through the years. I can't quote anything as I don't remember exactly what she said, but she mentioned things like the law of believing, or the idiom of permission, and an interesting one was "God in Christ in us." Typical Way terminology, I'm learning.
Okay, so flashback to nearly 9 months ago. So here we are in July, out of the chatroom and on MSN Messenger. We clicked with each other immediately. We didn't talk much about our religious beliefs after that, I assumed the terms she used (which even at this point I KNEW were not her own) were simply something that your typical evangelical Protestant church had taught her. Maybe she was nondenominational, maybe Baptist or Presbyterian, who knows? But then we started talking about the nature of Jesus, was He divine or not? Is He God? I noticed she had a clear belief that He is not God-incarnate. I found this...odd...to say the least. I thought "Well, I know she's not a Jehovah's Witness, but what church does she belong to?" So we talked for awhile about this (and we seem to be able to talk about things like this and not get mad or angry at each other or have our feelings hurt, which is good) and we just agreed to disagree--we still do.
So, we're talking on the phone about two weeks after we meet online. A couple months down the road, she wants to send me a book, titled The Bible Tells Me So, she says it's a very uplifting book since we met in the wake of something that happened to me which I would rather not speak the details of, but to make a long story short, what happened before she and I met led me spiraling into depression. But okay! Fastforward to January, just a few months ago from today. She tells me she's pretty much liked me as more than a friend for quite awhile, almost since we met. Oddly enough I felt the same way, so here we are...trying to figure out where to go with this. Shortly before this, back in December, I said I would come visit her, and this confirmed my visit. I'm visiting her in May. In wake of what I have seen here at this forum, I expect to have an interesting discussion with her parents regarding TWI, because they seem far more involved in it than she does. She and her siblings, I believe, just go along with what they've been raised to believe and aren't really so seriously involved in the organization itself, despite the fact that she is very devoted to her faith and they have a fellowship meeting every Sunday. Sometimes she's talked about going to her friend's house and one of the higher-ups being there and leading their fellowship meeting. I guess her friend's family is more heavily involved.
And don't worry lindyhopper, she and I don't have plans to get married. We're not even thinking about that at this point. It's kind of serious between us, but not that serious.
I mean, hell, we haven't even met in person. Her parents...they're the ones that I'm worried about. For some reason I have this image of her dad and I getting into a theological debate while I'm there. What I would like to know though, is how should I approach her parents if they ask me anything pertaining to TWI or of my beliefs as an Orthodox Christian? What if they ask me to join? :blink:
~Phil~
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bowtwi
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WordWolf
With most of the people still voluntarily in (and not in just because their family is in),
what they "think" is whatever twi tells them to think.
In short, ask one insider a bunch of questions, write down the answers,
then ask a different insider the same questions, and you'll get identical (and identically-phrased) answers.
So, the parents will probably recite the "buzz-words" that twi gave entirely. Don't expect there to be some
independent thought-just memorized "buzz-words." (Some people did that even after they left, and some STILL
do that NOW.)
If you get into a "theological debate", their questions-and answers- will conform.
Naturally, this also means they are predictable. (Seen one, you've seen them all.)
They're not going to change just because I posted this because they'd need some competent theologians
to do that-and they ran all of them off in the 70s, 80s and early 90s.
Whether or not they ASK you to join, you will be pressured to join.
Here's one sample approach.
First, they will be friendly, open, and non-pressuring.
They will invite you places.
Then, as time passes, you will NEED to pass certain standards to stick around.
Social pressures will be placed on you (and others) if this doesn't work.
(They used to kick people out if that didn't work.)
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oldiesman
Phil,
I'll give my 2 cents worth... I think the first step is for you to decide if you want to learn about the bible "the twi way". Be honest with them and yourself, whatever you choose. You already know that twi is a big part of your girlfriend and her parents life. If you prefer not to learn more about twi at this time, then I'd be honest about it and move in a different direction as soon as possible. But if you'd like to check twi out for yourself, go ahead. See for yourself if its something you can live with. If after checking them out its not your cup of tea, then depart knowing that you have done the best you can do in that situation but its just not for you.
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TheHighWay
There's the hook I was waiting to hear about... the first step that she offered to you in good faith, because she has been raised in this stuff and doesn't know anything else. The bottom line is: most folks in TWI are trained to believe they are right and everything else isn't worth talking about, except to point out how wrong it is, or to convert someone. Period.
Ooh, can I please be a fly on the wall for this conversation? You have hit the situation right on the head... her folks are seriously into twi, and the kids just go along because their parents tell them to... But what you need to realize is that most twi parents don't have a CLUE that their kids aren't that into the ministry. Not a CLUE! They are so committed to the group themselves, and they believe they have done all the right things to raise their kids, they just cannot, will not, consider that their kids are unhappy, uninspired, see the falseness and hypocrasy, etc... nope, not their kids. And they will not appreciate you saying it about their daughter, you can be sure of that!
By the way, I say all these things from experience having been a parent both inside and outside twi, with an ex who is still in for life.
My final advice -- there is a lot of wisdom and experience to be had on this forum. Read and evaluate carefully. Walk your own path but ALWAYS keep an eye out for the hook!! The Way International functions by incremental steps... first read this book (the blue book: The Bible Tells Me So, amazingly enough) Then come to fellowships. Then take this class. Then tithe and abundantly share (over the tithe). Then... and the steps just keep on coming. Those of us who spent 20 years in the group and went through almost every class, every special event, every training opportunity can tell you we were still treated like we knew nothing and needed to humble ourselves to the leadership's instructions and keep stepping along those steps... keep proving your spirituality, keep proving your commitment, blah-blah-blah... it never ends. Never.
Good luck in your choices and your life's destiny. The fact that you are checking out all sides is a good indication you will do fine in life. Just trust your gut, and don't let anyone else override your own best judgement and intuition!!
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Watered Garden
And of course, if you spend enough time and money checking it out, and listening to their presentations of what they sell as"God's Wonderful Matchless Word, Rightly Divided According to Usage, and Held Forth in the Exceeding Great and Glorious Light of the Present Truth" (as no one has known it or held it forth since the first century), your mind will be so controlled by "WayBrain" that no matter what they say or do to you, you will always think they are right.
Oh, but it's your free will and your decision, right? You can walk away any time you want, can't you?
WRONG-O KEEBLER! These people are experts at so subtly controlling you, by suggestion, innuendo, cajoling, lies, threats and intimidation, that you are in over your head before you know it, just like the frog in the kettle of water!
WG
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