maybe they felt pressured to continue "working" for the organization of "the way" and submitting to its yearly appraisals...
afterall, that is how cults operate... and twi was no different...
(especially if twi told them they would be breaking an "oath to God" if they did not continue in their "lifetime committment/obligation" to the organization of "the way")
twi had a habit of making itself equal to "god"...
That could be true except for that little problem of the claim that they understood that they had no pressure to continue working after all they knew they were done. Can't know your done and know you have no obligation other than to "do your own thing" and feel pressure to coninue at the same time. If you are sure that you have no requirement to do something then you don't do it. You simply say I don't have to..... that was not the agreement and so I'm not
Again If one believed they had no further responsibility to the program they would have just said Hey I'm done, I did not sign on for this and yet year after year they did not do so ,they did that which apparently hearing now was something they did not want to do. It seems logical that they accepted the fact that some form of continued leadership role and evaluation was warranted by their continued actions.
My experience is that people don't do things they hate doing year after year after year when they aren't required to and they know and agree that they are not. Generally they do it when they feel they are supposed to by some previous understanding.
Although I highly doubt your sincerity to know, here are some things to consider:
1) No blanket statements -- you can't paint the lives of some 3,500 people with the same brush.
2) Qualify your questions -- they, they, they did this........they, they, they, did that.....
3) After corps graduation --- yes, some corps left.......and didn't look back.
4) For a time, many corps served in a capacity of THEIR desire, THEIR ability and TWI's needs.
5) Some corps.....like J0e C0xlter.....went into the corps and STILL work on twi's staff.
6) The corps program has EVOLVED and CHANGED CONSTANTLY......with different coordinators.
7) At its peak, five campuses for "corps training"...........today, only at twi's ohio location.
8) Regular corps and Family corps --- totally different settings, different issues, different emphasis.
9) International corps in USA......European corps started training in Gartmore around 1983.
10) Once again, to use BLANKET STATEMENTS.....at best, shows ignorance....at worst, show maliciousness.
...My experience is that people don't do things they hate doing year after year after year when they aren't required to and they know and agree that they are not. Generally they do it when they feel they are supposed to by some previous understanding.
It's easy to argue that what was said was not what they understood years later, but it becomes tough to take seriously when their actions prove otherwise. For years despite apparently not liking what they continued to do, they did it anyway, presumably when they knew or felt that they had no obligation to do so. That leaves little weasle room for the argument. Of course that would mean they would now have to admit that they did understand that there was some implication that they would have further commitments to serve , and that the record shows by their actions that they continued to accept this process despite not liking it because they did in fact understand that it was required of them to stay in the program. .
What you have described is the subtle mind game that TWI pulls on followers – they entangle folks by the grand delusion of TWI's agenda being the will of God. Then followers tend to dismiss any reservations, dislikes, misgivings, second thoughts, etc. as bucking the will of God.
Oh, if I don't go in the Corps I'll let God down.
God, I really don't want to be sent to Washington DC, but if that's your will.
Well God, it's getting about time for Corps Week and the Rock of Ages – I'll have to quit my job again…hmmmm…wish I had a job that would give me a couple of weeks vacation…this gets really old…..alright, I'll quit my whining and trust you.
Although I highly doubt your sincerity to know, here are some things to consider:
1) No blanket statements -- you can't paint the lives of some 3,500 people with the same brush.
2) Qualify your questions -- they, they, they did this........they, they, they, did that.....
3) After corps graduation --- yes, some corps left.......and didn't look back.
4) For a time, many corps served in a capacity of THEIR desire, THEIR ability and TWI's needs.
5) Some corps.....like J0e C0xlter.....went into the corps and STILL work on twi's staff.
6) The corps program has EVOLVED and CHANGED CONSTANTLY......with different coordinators.
7) At its peak, five campuses for "corps training"...........today, only at twi's ohio location.
8) Regular corps and Family corps --- totally different settings, different issues, different emphasis.
9) International corps in USA......European corps started training in Gartmore around 1983.
10) Once again, to use BLANKET STATEMENTS.....at best, shows ignorance....at worst, show maliciousness.
I'm done.....time to enjoy my weekend!
Not blanket statements , while your history fact tour is correct it does not negate the printed statements. And I did allow for the early Corps who I believe never had such.
But please do enjoy your weekend there in" location unknown", I plan on enjoying mine hope the weather is as nice as it is here. Oh and I wanted to say I agree with your statement earlier
Quote
the corps program was static, not dynamic. In other words.......they never wanted to take into account that people GREW UP, and married, and had families, and careers, and extended family responsibilities, and homeownership duties, and A LIFE OUTSIDE TWI'S 'boot camp training.'
I think that it was unreasonable to ask a person at the age of 18,19 to make a life choice, But in fact that is what they did, I don't blame anyone for changing their minds , but wouldn't it be more honest to say you know I was young and stupid, and I've changed my mind.
Ok so for the sake of argument lets say I accept your claim that you did not know of the lifetime of service commitment prior to your arrival in residence it totally slipped by your attention you sunglasses and earplugs somehow prevented you from seeing or hearing about it. . Let’s say for the sake of argument that I'm willing to ignore all the printed matter, taped matter, the fact that absolutely no one thought to mention it your whole apprentice year and accept your claim as true.
Then one day as Sky was warming his chair at the top floor of Wierwille Hall, while dozing lightly from sleep deprivation, stomach growling from lack of food, dreaming of that job he was being trained for at Xerox, he is awakened suddenly by the phrase Lifetime of Christian Service. He begins to smell a funny odor. Hmmmm smells like stink bait he says. (And he looks at VP and then back at his desk, and then back at VP and back at his desk, and he realizes that the judge is not gonna look at the 27x8x10 glossy pictures with circles an arrows on the back of each one explaining what each one was to be used as evidence against him), Oh Wait! … wrong story.
After which he is jarred back into reality as he watches the Xerox job begin to fade to black he realizes he just signed on to a Lifetime of Christian service. Now Mr. Sky thought he was going for a three hour tour, much like the folks who wound up stuck on Gilligan’s island, only a little longer. He thought after four years he would surely be the VP of Xerox drawing down the big bucks. He does his best Bart Simson impression HUH wait a minute dude, I know I signed that form and put it there, under the half a ton of garbage on Thanksgiving day but I didn’t know what I was doing. My shades were on to tight and I couldn’t see the print, and these darn ear plugs. At that point, upon which time you were presented with this revelation some weeks/months into the program, it would seem you had two choices. You could go to the office scream this is b*lls**t, I did not sign on for this, throw a fit and inform them that you were exiting the program. Or you could accept the terms the agreement as is, from that point on and continue growing to like stink bait. In fact eating a steady diet of it.
Since it appears that is in fact what you did to finish the program, and in fact continued to accept the terms for year after year after year while enjoying MMMM Can I have some more stink bait then by default you accepted the terms. You clearly at that point knew the terms and you continued to go forward with the deal. Maybe not perfectly pleased but none the less accepted the terms. Yep! you said ,I’ll eat the bait MMMMMMMM this is good bait, Mr. Sky likes this, Can I have some more please?
Now flash forward some 20 years later, poor Mr. Sky after having continued with the terms offered somehow perceives he is seriously wronged, maybe yelled at one to many times, maybe was told to move one too many mattresses and something snapped,( you can add offence of your choice here ____.) His dreams of a Xerox CEO long gone he realizes he’ll be hawking copiers for ten hours a day on the street now. And so he leaves angry, pi**ed off and claims he was deceived Wah Wah Wah. So I wonder? if you, as you admit were informed of the terms, (admittedly after the fact) and you continued forth under those terms can you really claim that your understanding was that it was not a lifetime of service? I mean come on they told you what the plan was, and you had a chance to do whatever you felt ok with. I think it is telling, that only years later after you have a bone to pick with them due to personal wrong, that you claim this lack of understanding. It appears that in fact at the point where you were informed of the terms, you accepted them by your continued participation for many years.
This sounds like the guy who works for the greatest company in the world never can say enough good about it, until he gets fired that is, then all of a sudden his perception changes, funny how that works ,all the good just changes into bad somehow . Sounds more like sour grapes to me. If two weeks, a month, two months into the program they informed you of the deal and you continued to accept it, it seems a little lame to claim you did not know of the lifetime requirement, when in fact they told you of it, and if fact you continued knowing the terms for years enjoying the stink bait.
Congratulations you posted on the wrong thread again!!! Or did you purposely write that which has nothing to do with the subject. Because you have no answers to the hard questions?
So the question still remains If you thought you were done ,finished after your four years of training, no obligation to lead in the way, exactly why did one feel the need to submit to yearly appraisals?
The obvious answer to this question has been given over and over again on this and so many other threads, and you simply don't want to accept what so many of us went through: the consequences of NOT submitted were too scary to contemplate --- (such as)
... being dropped from a program you just spent four years busting your butt to finish
... being told you were spiritual dirt
... being castigated in front of all your "peers" on a corps night
... losing all the friends you had in life because you've already aliented all your "earthly" friends and family
... finding yourself with nothing financially because you cashed in everything you had to go into training and pay the tuition
... losing however many years of your life that you had already dedicated to the way ministry, plus the time in-residence
... being afraid that the devil himself would swoop down and get you because you had turned your back on God's one true ministry
I could go on and on here, but you get the point (well, most of you do).
My memory may be faulty, but I thought that you White Dove have stated that you did not go through the Way Corps in-residence training, but that you did marry a Corps grad, making you what they used to call "Spouse Corps". (Martindale eliminated this status in the 90's btw, requiring that couples where one did not go through the in-residence training apply go through the whole four years - several prominent WC grads, including some clergy, had to go back into residence because their spouses had never been through training - now that's a bait & switch)
Is it possible that those who are referring to you as not being "Corps" are viewing the training, including the application process, garnering of sponsorship and all the rest as the essential feature of "Corpsness"? This would naturally lead to a dismissal of your experience "on the field" as relevant to the discussion.
From where I sit, it seems incredible to think that going through the Way Corps did not include an expectation that the graduate would serve in some capacity in TWI. I can't imagine entering the program without at least the suspicion that one would be expected to accept assignments.
On the other hand, not every Corps grad was on the fast track to ordination or running a limb or region. There were times when the majority of the Way Corps were expected to work full time in whatever field they had chosen, and be responsible for saving money for their children's education, etc. There was a time when Corps grads who ran there own businesses, or worked in their profession were respected for the good witness that they were in the community. Some of these ran twigs, some didn't, but there was no stigma to being a Corps grad who didn't submit to being moved about every three years. I recall situations where Corps grads requested being given less responsibility, or no responsibility at all, and where still regarded highly.
You also can't ignore the changes in how the program was presented. A training program for those with gift ministries, a training program for twig leaders, a training program for leaders of tens (branch leaders)...
...kind off...during the nineties Martindale, looking as he often did to Moses for his example, decided that Way Corps grads were to be leaders of thousands, hundreds, tens, etc based on the plan whereby Moses delegated some of his responsibility to others. He decided that "leaders of tens" did not refer to more than one "leader of ten" but that each of those leaders would be leading "tens", in other words, more than one "ten", or in Wayspeak, a "branch". The only problem (okay, one of the problems) was that there were Corps grads out there who were overseeing just one twig and the long-time definition of a branch was seven twigs (they did have something called a "twig area" that was 3 - 6 twigs, but that had faded somewhat). What to do? First, split all the twigs so that each Corps grad was now overseeing two twigs and redefine "branch" to mean "two or more twigs". In my last years in TWI we had two "branches" in Nebraska, each with only two twigs. The Omaha branch was so small that when the Limb coordinator was reassigned every wayfer who lived in Omaha was counselled to move elsewhere if they wanted to be active in TWI. A year or two later the new Limb Coordinator/Lincoln Branch coordinator was reassigned and the "branch" was consolidated into one twig that could still barely fill a living room.
From where I sit, it seems incredible to think that going through the Way Corps did not include an expectation that the graduate would serve in some capacity in TWI.
That's my 2 cents too.
The fact that there's such a diversity of reflections on what the program was all about says something about the program, and the people that participated I think.
It went through multiple iterations over the years, each time apparently keeping to the same basic tenets while changing requirements, components and expectations. Each year would have graduates fanning out, while at the same time there were people in their preparatory year, 2nd or 4th in-residence year, and interim year (once the 4 year program was installed).
All of those people were either hearing or telling the/their personal "story" as to what it was they were doing and why. Obviously it wasn't the same story, whether from the coordinators, facilities or participants.
In the early 80's I started advising people to not go into the program when they had an interest in it and talked to me about it. I was cautious, giving 2 reasons - the program seemed to be in flux and it might be better to wait a year or two and see what developed and 2. I couldn't guarantee what they'd get when and if they got "there", Emporia, Rome City or New Knoxville. I met up with an old friend last year who I'd all but forgotten I'd talked to about this way way back when and in hindsight, they thanked me for that advice. So it helped for one person, anyway especially looking back now and knowing what was about to come down the pike soon enough.
The "real" reason I had but couldn't completely document was that I thought the program wasn't being run by really qualified people, it seemed too much all over the road. And it seemed too impersonal to really do much good for an individual (by my view).
I'd recommended the program to people over the years but with caution, always. I didn't feel it something to just drop off the truck and fall into and see what happens. A person needed to have some good focus on what they were doing and wanted to do.
Likewise with WOW programs - the last year I'd "promoted" it, 11 people signed up from our fellowship, a loosely aligned but lovely bunch of about 30 people. That year our 11 was more than signed up for WOW in the entire state I lived in. So I was a "believer" in the possibilities. After I heard the stories coming back over the next year and the next summer at the ROA I decided I wasn't going to do that again.
My point - I do think there was a range of possibilities for what a person would or could do when they invested in the Corps program, but that was frequently subject to the influence and input of a 100's or people who weren't all saying the same things about it. Adding to that the program itself shifted over the years this way and that - and assuming the people here are telling the truth about their own understandings the only conclusion I could reach is that it was chaos and not always friendly chaos by any means.
Once Martindale got to retooling it in the 90's, I think anything was possible. Those years sound just too strange to even consider.
My general advice to people is don't get mixed up with the Way or the people in the Way. Stay away from it and them. It's not because there aren't good people, it's because it's too unpredictable, too subject to change at a whims notice. No solid foundation.
Too many people doing what they're doing and getting deeply involved in people's lives and don't have a clue as to what they're really doing or why and are just following a misguided belief that someone somewhere up the chain is "in touch" with the powers that be and knows what they're doing. It's like herding gerbils, they consider getting their next meal down and not getting hit by a truck success. ("I ate and I'm alive - that proves we're right and you're wrong".)
The obvious answer to this question has been given over and over again on this and so many other threads, and you simply don't want to accept what so many of us went through: the consequences of NOT submitted were too scary to contemplate --- (such as)
Ok so fear was your motivating factor... But I'm still intrigued why if you had made it through and believed that it was to train you for some secular job of your choice and you were done, why would you really care if they dropped you? Another response causes me to pause as well .......
losing however many years of your life that you had already dedicated to the way ministry, plus the time in-residence.
Correct me if I'm wrong here and I'm sure someone will. but weren't those years already lost, I mean one can not go back and get them. If it was that miserable one would think cutting your losses then and there would be a better plan, rather than fighting to continue to loose more years. Just a thought......
Oakspear ,Socks we are pretty much in agreement as Skyrider brought up it was unreasonable to require people at that age level to make a commitment of that length. I never said it was a smart move only that it was what they asked for. It does seem incredible to think that going through the Way Corps did not include an expectation that the graduate would serve in some capacity in TWI. I mean one look around at the way former graduates were being used and worked should have offered a clue, it was pretty clear and easy to someone even on the field to figure out. I'd would have thought those in residence would have been a quicker study...... I mean come on pretty much from the intermediate class on the focus changed to giving and service to the ministry, did you really think that the top leadership training program came with no stings attached? Sorry I just don't believe at that time most believed that. They may now want to claim it due to a change of feeling. I look around at the kids 19 today they have trouble deciding whether to buy the regular or the bonus CD version of the album. I doubt at times we were much better at choices. I don't even know as Socks mentioned that one could even blame the leaders, if one was so inclined to. I think many of them were struggling to do a job they were not up to, I'm not sure that many choices were just poor ones, not intentionally bad. Further I was not advocating that anyone should feel remorse for not living up to the commitment, it's too long ago and far away to really matter. After all the world did not end and the devil did not swoop down and kill them off after all.
I agree that there was always the expectation that a corps grad would serve "in some capacity" within twi. But what that capacity was, is what I think is in dispute. There is a huge difference between coordinating a local fellowship in the city and state of your own choosing, and being told that you either go to state X, city Y and coordinate the area, or you are dropped from active corps status, which is what so many of us experienced.
As for "losing years of your life" if you walked away from the corps... by that I mean that whatever your expectations going in, if you finished the corps training, you must have some pretty firm beliefs in The Way International's goals, beliefs, etc. So, then you decide you cannot accept the assignment they are giving you. They drop you from active corps status. This usually results in great self-condemnation because you believe you have failed God and are a big spiritual loser (because you still believe in twi) OR you realize that this group is NOT working for God, and they don't care about your best interests, and that's when it dawns on you that you have wasted all those years and all that time and the prime of the youth of your life devoting so much of your time and resources to a group that wasn't what you thought it was!! Yes, the years were gone either way, but it is very much a person's awareness of the loss I am discussing. It is often the rude awakening of having your corps standing taken away that causes people to realize this loss.
I think that the fact that there were at one time Corps grads around who weren't on the hamster wheel of Corps assignments, who were working a "secular" job or running their own business (like the Colonel who worked at the Pentagon, the medical doctor, and others), who were not reassigned every three years coexisting with Corps grads who were accepting assignments and being uprooted on a regular basis caused some confusion on the part of some people who applied for the program. I recall a couple applying for Corps training as late as the mid-nineties who were convinced that they would put in their time and then come back to Nebraska and pick up where they left off, running their small business; and this just before Martindale mandated that all active Way Corps work full-time for "the ministry" and not hold outside jobs.
Yes, an expectation that a Corps grad serve in some capacity seems obvious, but given the wide range in which "some capacity" was practiced, it is not all that surprising that some folks interpreted "A Lifetime of Christian Service" more broadly than others.
That being said, I am occassionally surprised to hear about ex-wayfers who innocently clung to the belief that within The Way International serving God or following Christ was viewed as anything other than serving and following the leaders of The Way International. From what I can see, Wierwille and later Martindale, despite protests that it was "the Word" and not what VP Wierwille or L Craig Martindale said, made it very clear that what they said was what "The Word" said. Following God was defined as following the MOG.
My memory may be faulty, but I thought that you White Dove have stated that you did not go through the Way Corps in-residence training, but that you did marry a Corps grad, making you what they used to call "Spouse Corps". (Martindale eliminated this status in the 90's btw, requiring that couples where one did not go through the in-residence training apply go through the whole four years - several prominent WC grads, including some clergy, had to go back into residence because their spouses had never been through training - now that's a bait & switch)
Spouse corps.......yeah, another "diversion" from wierwille's original intent of those early years, but adapted and accepted around 1978 (?)......and wasn't this widely discussed at those corps weeks in 1978 & 1979..?
Me?.....I never had any concern one way or another.....in fact in my experiences, I found many *spouse corps* approachable, dependable and prudent. Besides, if the goal was to grow spiritually and serve God........welcome to the party and pull up a chair. And further.....I never agreed with vpw's comments about CORPS SHOULD MARRY CORPS....but rather, took the position that it was an individual choice, NOT up for "committee balloting."
From where I sit, it seems incredible to think that going through the Way Corps did not include an expectation that the graduate would serve in some capacity in TWI. I can't imagine entering the program without at least the suspicion that one would be expected to accept assignments.
From my 20 year-old perspective, when it was promoted as "A Lifetime of Christian Service"........the general concepts were acceptable to my college brain-cells........serve according to MY interests and MY abilities. At the end of apprentice corps year, my 4th Corps LC was going to "step down" from the LC position and further his education for a few years.
There was a time when Corps grads who ran there own businesses, or worked in their profession were respected for the good witness that they were in the community. Some of these ran twigs, some didn't, but there was no stigma to being a Corps grad who didn't submit to being moved about every three years. I recall situations where Corps grads requested being given less responsibility, or no responsibility at all, and where still regarded highly.
I remember THAT....... :)
You also can't ignore the changes in how the program was presented. A training program for those with gift ministries, a training program for twig leaders, a training program for leaders of tens (branch leaders)...
Yeah.......lots of changes, for sure......my experience ties more closely with the "Word in Culture" era and the major thrust to build at camp gunnison, tinnie, and restore aspects of the emporia campus buildings. Several of the corps guys around me would be shipped out to gunnison for four to six month work projects.
Maybe I don't belong on this thread because I was never in the corps.
I don't know. You be the judge.
When I went into Fellow Laborers in 1975, there had only been a couple of corps that had graduated.
The program was somewhat patterned after certain aspects of those early years of the corps.
(ie: morning fellowship, run down the road and back, work on the ministry property, special advanced teaching sessions, etc.)
The program was pitched to me as an opportunity to study the Book of Acts, both academically and in practical application, for 2 years, and then return to our home areas as better equipped leaders.
I had no desire to move up some sort of corporate ladder. I was already functioning as a twig area coordinator and class instructor.
Well, what I actually got was an education in what it is like to live in a commune in the middle of nowhere.
There was very little academic curricula to speak of.
And, maybe that's a good thing because there was no free time provided to study or even just read The Word, anyhow.
When we graduated, much to our surprise, we were given assignments that involved moving to areas that were NOT our hometowns. These were areas where there was little or no TWI activity or areas where people had started to drift away.
Not at all what I had bargained for but I had already invested two years of my life into this thing.
There were some options.
The first option was, of course, to move where you were told to move.
(This, by the way, was promoted as being a "revelation inspired" move.)
Or, you could go back home, try to fit back in and explain why you came back home instead of following the "revelation inspired" directive to do otherwise.
Or, you could go into the corps and justify your move as being drawn to an even higher calling.
Or, finally, you could just say, "screw you, I'm done" and go back home to a place where you had burned all your bridges two years prior to graduation.
Well, I moved to the town I was assigned to and I'm still here 30+ years later.
Lots of things change in 30 years; you get married, you get divorced, you change jobs, you buy a house, you have kids, and so on.
The point is, here I am 30+ years later in a place I never, in my wildest dreams, imagined my simple two year "commitment" would lead me.
Maybe there's a parallel in there somewhere and maybe there isn't.
All I know is that it wasn't at all what I signed up for 30+ years ago.
Maybe I don't belong on this thread because I was never in the corps.
I don't know. You be the judge.
Of course, you belong.......and your FL commitment is an amazing read. Thanks
I had NO idea you guys did all these things in fellow laborers.
When we graduated, much to our surprise, we were given assignments that involved moving to areas that were NOT our hometowns. These were areas where there was little or no TWI activity or areas where people had started to drift away. Not at all what I had bargained for but I had already invested two years of my life into this thing.
Surprise, surprise...........not really. <_<
Didn't you get that "hometown assignment agreement" in writing.....before you "signed on?"
When we graduated, much to our surprise, we were given assignments that involved moving to areas that were NOT our hometowns. These were areas where there was little or no TWI activity or areas where people had started to drift away.
Not at all what I had bargained for but I had already invested two years of my life into this thing.
This is an excellent summary of how so many of us felt every single time twi would spring some nasty surprise on us... "it wasn't what I had bargained for, but I had already invested xx years of my life into it". Add to that, the arguments: this is God's ministry, I'm married to another believer, all my friends are believers... well, you can see how hard it became to say "no thanks".
The program was pitched to me as an opportunity to study the Book of Acts, both academically and in practical application, for 2 years, and then return to our home areas as better equipped leaders.
Well, what I actually got was an education in what it is like to live in a commune in the middle of nowhere.
There was very little academic curricula to speak of.
((((waysider))))........NO WONDER you understand the "pitch & con" so well. :)
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WhiteDove
That could be true except for that little problem of the claim that they understood that they had no pressure to continue working after all they knew they were done. Can't know your done and know you have no obligation other than to "do your own thing" and feel pressure to coninue at the same time. If you are sure that you have no requirement to do something then you don't do it. You simply say I don't have to..... that was not the agreement and so I'm not
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waysider
It was a CULT.
How hard is that to comprehend?
If it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck---------------------------->
(I think you know the rest.)
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skyrider
Although I highly doubt your sincerity to know, here are some things to consider:
1) No blanket statements -- you can't paint the lives of some 3,500 people with the same brush.
2) Qualify your questions -- they, they, they did this........they, they, they, did that.....
3) After corps graduation --- yes, some corps left.......and didn't look back.
4) For a time, many corps served in a capacity of THEIR desire, THEIR ability and TWI's needs.
5) Some corps.....like J0e C0xlter.....went into the corps and STILL work on twi's staff.
6) The corps program has EVOLVED and CHANGED CONSTANTLY......with different coordinators.
7) At its peak, five campuses for "corps training"...........today, only at twi's ohio location.
8) Regular corps and Family corps --- totally different settings, different issues, different emphasis.
9) International corps in USA......European corps started training in Gartmore around 1983.
10) Once again, to use BLANKET STATEMENTS.....at best, shows ignorance....at worst, show maliciousness.
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T-Bone
What you have described is the subtle mind game that TWI pulls on followers – they entangle folks by the grand delusion of TWI's agenda being the will of God. Then followers tend to dismiss any reservations, dislikes, misgivings, second thoughts, etc. as bucking the will of God.
Oh, if I don't go in the Corps I'll let God down.
God, I really don't want to be sent to Washington DC, but if that's your will.
Well God, it's getting about time for Corps Week and the Rock of Ages – I'll have to quit my job again…hmmmm…wish I had a job that would give me a couple of weeks vacation…this gets really old…..alright, I'll quit my whining and trust you.
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WhiteDove
Not blanket statements , while your history fact tour is correct it does not negate the printed statements. And I did allow for the early Corps who I believe never had such.
But please do enjoy your weekend there in" location unknown", I plan on enjoying mine hope the weather is as nice as it is here. Oh and I wanted to say I agree with your statement earlier
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the corps program was static, not dynamic. In other words.......they never wanted to take into account that people GREW UP, and married, and had families, and careers, and extended family responsibilities, and homeownership duties, and A LIFE OUTSIDE TWI'S 'boot camp training.'
I think that it was unreasonable to ask a person at the age of 18,19 to make a life choice, But in fact that is what they did, I don't blame anyone for changing their minds , but wouldn't it be more honest to say you know I was young and stupid, and I've changed my mind.
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WhiteDove
And for your weekend reading pleasure
"My Life in a Cult " By Mr. Skyrider.
Ok so for the sake of argument lets say I accept your claim that you did not know of the lifetime of service commitment prior to your arrival in residence it totally slipped by your attention you sunglasses and earplugs somehow prevented you from seeing or hearing about it. . Let’s say for the sake of argument that I'm willing to ignore all the printed matter, taped matter, the fact that absolutely no one thought to mention it your whole apprentice year and accept your claim as true.
Then one day as Sky was warming his chair at the top floor of Wierwille Hall, while dozing lightly from sleep deprivation, stomach growling from lack of food, dreaming of that job he was being trained for at Xerox, he is awakened suddenly by the phrase Lifetime of Christian Service. He begins to smell a funny odor. Hmmmm smells like stink bait he says. (And he looks at VP and then back at his desk, and then back at VP and back at his desk, and he realizes that the judge is not gonna look at the 27x8x10 glossy pictures with circles an arrows on the back of each one explaining what each one was to be used as evidence against him), Oh Wait! … wrong story.
After which he is jarred back into reality as he watches the Xerox job begin to fade to black he realizes he just signed on to a Lifetime of Christian service. Now Mr. Sky thought he was going for a three hour tour, much like the folks who wound up stuck on Gilligan’s island, only a little longer. He thought after four years he would surely be the VP of Xerox drawing down the big bucks. He does his best Bart Simson impression HUH wait a minute dude, I know I signed that form and put it there, under the half a ton of garbage on Thanksgiving day but I didn’t know what I was doing. My shades were on to tight and I couldn’t see the print, and these darn ear plugs. At that point, upon which time you were presented with this revelation some weeks/months into the program, it would seem you had two choices. You could go to the office scream this is b*lls**t, I did not sign on for this, throw a fit and inform them that you were exiting the program. Or you could accept the terms the agreement as is, from that point on and continue growing to like stink bait. In fact eating a steady diet of it.
Since it appears that is in fact what you did to finish the program, and in fact continued to accept the terms for year after year after year while enjoying MMMM Can I have some more stink bait then by default you accepted the terms. You clearly at that point knew the terms and you continued to go forward with the deal. Maybe not perfectly pleased but none the less accepted the terms. Yep! you said ,I’ll eat the bait MMMMMMMM this is good bait, Mr. Sky likes this, Can I have some more please?
Now flash forward some 20 years later, poor Mr. Sky after having continued with the terms offered somehow perceives he is seriously wronged, maybe yelled at one to many times, maybe was told to move one too many mattresses and something snapped,( you can add offence of your choice here ____.) His dreams of a Xerox CEO long gone he realizes he’ll be hawking copiers for ten hours a day on the street now. And so he leaves angry, pi**ed off and claims he was deceived Wah Wah Wah. So I wonder? if you, as you admit were informed of the terms, (admittedly after the fact) and you continued forth under those terms can you really claim that your understanding was that it was not a lifetime of service? I mean come on they told you what the plan was, and you had a chance to do whatever you felt ok with. I think it is telling, that only years later after you have a bone to pick with them due to personal wrong, that you claim this lack of understanding. It appears that in fact at the point where you were informed of the terms, you accepted them by your continued participation for many years.
This sounds like the guy who works for the greatest company in the world never can say enough good about it, until he gets fired that is, then all of a sudden his perception changes, funny how that works ,all the good just changes into bad somehow . Sounds more like sour grapes to me. If two weeks, a month, two months into the program they informed you of the deal and you continued to accept it, it seems a little lame to claim you did not know of the lifetime requirement, when in fact they told you of it, and if fact you continued knowing the terms for years enjoying the stink bait.
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cman
Yeah, that's a 1954 Corvette Roadster!
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WhiteDove
Congratulations you posted on the wrong thread again!!! Or did you purposely write that which has nothing to do with the subject. Because you have no answers to the hard questions?
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cman
You have no questions relevant to the answers.
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TheHighWay
The obvious answer to this question has been given over and over again on this and so many other threads, and you simply don't want to accept what so many of us went through: the consequences of NOT submitted were too scary to contemplate --- (such as)
... being dropped from a program you just spent four years busting your butt to finish
... being told you were spiritual dirt
... being castigated in front of all your "peers" on a corps night
... losing all the friends you had in life because you've already aliented all your "earthly" friends and family
... finding yourself with nothing financially because you cashed in everything you had to go into training and pay the tuition
... losing however many years of your life that you had already dedicated to the way ministry, plus the time in-residence
... being afraid that the devil himself would swoop down and get you because you had turned your back on God's one true ministry
I could go on and on here, but you get the point (well, most of you do).
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Oakspear
My memory may be faulty, but I thought that you White Dove have stated that you did not go through the Way Corps in-residence training, but that you did marry a Corps grad, making you what they used to call "Spouse Corps". (Martindale eliminated this status in the 90's btw, requiring that couples where one did not go through the in-residence training apply go through the whole four years - several prominent WC grads, including some clergy, had to go back into residence because their spouses had never been through training - now that's a bait & switch)
Is it possible that those who are referring to you as not being "Corps" are viewing the training, including the application process, garnering of sponsorship and all the rest as the essential feature of "Corpsness"? This would naturally lead to a dismissal of your experience "on the field" as relevant to the discussion.
From where I sit, it seems incredible to think that going through the Way Corps did not include an expectation that the graduate would serve in some capacity in TWI. I can't imagine entering the program without at least the suspicion that one would be expected to accept assignments.
On the other hand, not every Corps grad was on the fast track to ordination or running a limb or region. There were times when the majority of the Way Corps were expected to work full time in whatever field they had chosen, and be responsible for saving money for their children's education, etc. There was a time when Corps grads who ran there own businesses, or worked in their profession were respected for the good witness that they were in the community. Some of these ran twigs, some didn't, but there was no stigma to being a Corps grad who didn't submit to being moved about every three years. I recall situations where Corps grads requested being given less responsibility, or no responsibility at all, and where still regarded highly.
You also can't ignore the changes in how the program was presented. A training program for those with gift ministries, a training program for twig leaders, a training program for leaders of tens (branch leaders)...
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socks
That's my 2 cents too.
The fact that there's such a diversity of reflections on what the program was all about says something about the program, and the people that participated I think.
It went through multiple iterations over the years, each time apparently keeping to the same basic tenets while changing requirements, components and expectations. Each year would have graduates fanning out, while at the same time there were people in their preparatory year, 2nd or 4th in-residence year, and interim year (once the 4 year program was installed).
All of those people were either hearing or telling the/their personal "story" as to what it was they were doing and why. Obviously it wasn't the same story, whether from the coordinators, facilities or participants.
In the early 80's I started advising people to not go into the program when they had an interest in it and talked to me about it. I was cautious, giving 2 reasons - the program seemed to be in flux and it might be better to wait a year or two and see what developed and 2. I couldn't guarantee what they'd get when and if they got "there", Emporia, Rome City or New Knoxville. I met up with an old friend last year who I'd all but forgotten I'd talked to about this way way back when and in hindsight, they thanked me for that advice. So it helped for one person, anyway especially looking back now and knowing what was about to come down the pike soon enough.
The "real" reason I had but couldn't completely document was that I thought the program wasn't being run by really qualified people, it seemed too much all over the road. And it seemed too impersonal to really do much good for an individual (by my view).
I'd recommended the program to people over the years but with caution, always. I didn't feel it something to just drop off the truck and fall into and see what happens. A person needed to have some good focus on what they were doing and wanted to do.
Likewise with WOW programs - the last year I'd "promoted" it, 11 people signed up from our fellowship, a loosely aligned but lovely bunch of about 30 people. That year our 11 was more than signed up for WOW in the entire state I lived in. So I was a "believer" in the possibilities. After I heard the stories coming back over the next year and the next summer at the ROA I decided I wasn't going to do that again.
My point - I do think there was a range of possibilities for what a person would or could do when they invested in the Corps program, but that was frequently subject to the influence and input of a 100's or people who weren't all saying the same things about it. Adding to that the program itself shifted over the years this way and that - and assuming the people here are telling the truth about their own understandings the only conclusion I could reach is that it was chaos and not always friendly chaos by any means.
Once Martindale got to retooling it in the 90's, I think anything was possible. Those years sound just too strange to even consider.
My general advice to people is don't get mixed up with the Way or the people in the Way. Stay away from it and them. It's not because there aren't good people, it's because it's too unpredictable, too subject to change at a whims notice. No solid foundation.
Too many people doing what they're doing and getting deeply involved in people's lives and don't have a clue as to what they're really doing or why and are just following a misguided belief that someone somewhere up the chain is "in touch" with the powers that be and knows what they're doing. It's like herding gerbils, they consider getting their next meal down and not getting hit by a truck success. ("I ate and I'm alive - that proves we're right and you're wrong".)
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WhiteDove
Ok so fear was your motivating factor... But I'm still intrigued why if you had made it through and believed that it was to train you for some secular job of your choice and you were done, why would you really care if they dropped you? Another response causes me to pause as well .......
losing however many years of your life that you had already dedicated to the way ministry, plus the time in-residence.
Correct me if I'm wrong here and I'm sure someone will. but weren't those years already lost, I mean one can not go back and get them. If it was that miserable one would think cutting your losses then and there would be a better plan, rather than fighting to continue to loose more years. Just a thought......
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waysider
Sheesh!!
If it's this hard explaining it to someone who was in The Way, no wonder it's near impossible to explain it to someone who wasn't.
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WhiteDove
Oakspear ,Socks we are pretty much in agreement as Skyrider brought up it was unreasonable to require people at that age level to make a commitment of that length. I never said it was a smart move only that it was what they asked for. It does seem incredible to think that going through the Way Corps did not include an expectation that the graduate would serve in some capacity in TWI. I mean one look around at the way former graduates were being used and worked should have offered a clue, it was pretty clear and easy to someone even on the field to figure out. I'd would have thought those in residence would have been a quicker study...... I mean come on pretty much from the intermediate class on the focus changed to giving and service to the ministry, did you really think that the top leadership training program came with no stings attached? Sorry I just don't believe at that time most believed that. They may now want to claim it due to a change of feeling. I look around at the kids 19 today they have trouble deciding whether to buy the regular or the bonus CD version of the album. I doubt at times we were much better at choices. I don't even know as Socks mentioned that one could even blame the leaders, if one was so inclined to. I think many of them were struggling to do a job they were not up to, I'm not sure that many choices were just poor ones, not intentionally bad. Further I was not advocating that anyone should feel remorse for not living up to the commitment, it's too long ago and far away to really matter. After all the world did not end and the devil did not swoop down and kill them off after all.
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TheHighWay
I agree that there was always the expectation that a corps grad would serve "in some capacity" within twi. But what that capacity was, is what I think is in dispute. There is a huge difference between coordinating a local fellowship in the city and state of your own choosing, and being told that you either go to state X, city Y and coordinate the area, or you are dropped from active corps status, which is what so many of us experienced.
As for "losing years of your life" if you walked away from the corps... by that I mean that whatever your expectations going in, if you finished the corps training, you must have some pretty firm beliefs in The Way International's goals, beliefs, etc. So, then you decide you cannot accept the assignment they are giving you. They drop you from active corps status. This usually results in great self-condemnation because you believe you have failed God and are a big spiritual loser (because you still believe in twi) OR you realize that this group is NOT working for God, and they don't care about your best interests, and that's when it dawns on you that you have wasted all those years and all that time and the prime of the youth of your life devoting so much of your time and resources to a group that wasn't what you thought it was!! Yes, the years were gone either way, but it is very much a person's awareness of the loss I am discussing. It is often the rude awakening of having your corps standing taken away that causes people to realize this loss.
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Oakspear
I think that the fact that there were at one time Corps grads around who weren't on the hamster wheel of Corps assignments, who were working a "secular" job or running their own business (like the Colonel who worked at the Pentagon, the medical doctor, and others), who were not reassigned every three years coexisting with Corps grads who were accepting assignments and being uprooted on a regular basis caused some confusion on the part of some people who applied for the program. I recall a couple applying for Corps training as late as the mid-nineties who were convinced that they would put in their time and then come back to Nebraska and pick up where they left off, running their small business; and this just before Martindale mandated that all active Way Corps work full-time for "the ministry" and not hold outside jobs.
Yes, an expectation that a Corps grad serve in some capacity seems obvious, but given the wide range in which "some capacity" was practiced, it is not all that surprising that some folks interpreted "A Lifetime of Christian Service" more broadly than others.
That being said, I am occassionally surprised to hear about ex-wayfers who innocently clung to the belief that within The Way International serving God or following Christ was viewed as anything other than serving and following the leaders of The Way International. From what I can see, Wierwille and later Martindale, despite protests that it was "the Word" and not what VP Wierwille or L Craig Martindale said, made it very clear that what they said was what "The Word" said. Following God was defined as following the MOG.
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excathedra
ohgod i'm just so glad i got out
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skyrider
Spouse corps.......yeah, another "diversion" from wierwille's original intent of those early years, but adapted and accepted around 1978 (?)......and wasn't this widely discussed at those corps weeks in 1978 & 1979..?
Me?.....I never had any concern one way or another.....in fact in my experiences, I found many *spouse corps* approachable, dependable and prudent. Besides, if the goal was to grow spiritually and serve God........welcome to the party and pull up a chair. And further.....I never agreed with vpw's comments about CORPS SHOULD MARRY CORPS....but rather, took the position that it was an individual choice, NOT up for "committee balloting."
From my 20 year-old perspective, when it was promoted as "A Lifetime of Christian Service"........the general concepts were acceptable to my college brain-cells........serve according to MY interests and MY abilities. At the end of apprentice corps year, my 4th Corps LC was going to "step down" from the LC position and further his education for a few years.
I remember THAT....... :)Yeah.......lots of changes, for sure......my experience ties more closely with the "Word in Culture" era and the major thrust to build at camp gunnison, tinnie, and restore aspects of the emporia campus buildings. Several of the corps guys around me would be shipped out to gunnison for four to six month work projects.
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waysider
Maybe I don't belong on this thread because I was never in the corps.
I don't know. You be the judge.
When I went into Fellow Laborers in 1975, there had only been a couple of corps that had graduated.
The program was somewhat patterned after certain aspects of those early years of the corps.
(ie: morning fellowship, run down the road and back, work on the ministry property, special advanced teaching sessions, etc.)
The program was pitched to me as an opportunity to study the Book of Acts, both academically and in practical application, for 2 years, and then return to our home areas as better equipped leaders.
I had no desire to move up some sort of corporate ladder. I was already functioning as a twig area coordinator and class instructor.
Well, what I actually got was an education in what it is like to live in a commune in the middle of nowhere.
There was very little academic curricula to speak of.
And, maybe that's a good thing because there was no free time provided to study or even just read The Word, anyhow.
When we graduated, much to our surprise, we were given assignments that involved moving to areas that were NOT our hometowns. These were areas where there was little or no TWI activity or areas where people had started to drift away.
Not at all what I had bargained for but I had already invested two years of my life into this thing.
There were some options.
The first option was, of course, to move where you were told to move.
(This, by the way, was promoted as being a "revelation inspired" move.)
Or, you could go back home, try to fit back in and explain why you came back home instead of following the "revelation inspired" directive to do otherwise.
Or, you could go into the corps and justify your move as being drawn to an even higher calling.
Or, finally, you could just say, "screw you, I'm done" and go back home to a place where you had burned all your bridges two years prior to graduation.
Well, I moved to the town I was assigned to and I'm still here 30+ years later.
Lots of things change in 30 years; you get married, you get divorced, you change jobs, you buy a house, you have kids, and so on.
The point is, here I am 30+ years later in a place I never, in my wildest dreams, imagined my simple two year "commitment" would lead me.
Maybe there's a parallel in there somewhere and maybe there isn't.
All I know is that it wasn't at all what I signed up for 30+ years ago.
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skyrider
Of course, you belong.......and your FL commitment is an amazing read. Thanks
I had NO idea you guys did all these things in fellow laborers.
Surprise, surprise...........not really. <_<
Didn't you get that "hometown assignment agreement" in writing.....before you "signed on?"
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waysider
Thanks for you response, skyrider.
That means more to me than you may realize.
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TheHighWay
This is an excellent summary of how so many of us felt every single time twi would spring some nasty surprise on us... "it wasn't what I had bargained for, but I had already invested xx years of my life into it". Add to that, the arguments: this is God's ministry, I'm married to another believer, all my friends are believers... well, you can see how hard it became to say "no thanks".
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skyrider
((((waysider))))........NO WONDER you understand the "pitch & con" so well. :)
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