Corps Night teachings had the obligatory references to pay homage to vp – When Doctor Wierwille taught this to our Corps he said this about that…This goes along the lines of what Doctor Wierwille taught us in PFAL…When it came time to start on our research paper, LCM said don't try to re-invent the wheel – stick with something from PFAL.
Even the decision-making process modeled by leaders was Wierwille-centric. I remember LCM describing in VP and Me,atthe early stage of his presidency he'd visualize how vp would handle a situation. I like to shorten that principle to something easier to remember – WWWD – What Would Wierwille Do?
Yup…vp was essential to a follower's belief system.
Yes, t-bone.......imo.....this idolizing wierwille was/is lurking in the belly of the twi-beast.
Yet, it is intricately interwoven into the fabric of twi's history, pfal, publications, corps program, etc........and FEW ever step back and recognize it for what it is.......LIKE YOU JUST DID.
We experimented with the "3 minute teaching" very briefly in Fellow Laborers.
It was short lived.
There were about 6 people in each of our night twigs and any one of us could be called on to give a short teaching.
People where so danged tired at 10PM, after having been on the go since 5AM, they would either read for 3 minutes from Ephesians, because "Dr." had said you could study it for a lifetime and never master it, or crack open "The Blue Book" because "Dr." had written it.
Who could argue you weren't following directions?
When I took acting classes, many years ago, we were taught that an actor should always have a 2 minute and a 5 minute presentation that could be given at a moments notice.
Having a short teaching always ready is, in itself, not a bad concept.
But, like so many other things in TWI, it morphed into something that was inordinately appliedcreepy!
Funny, isn't it, how in the PFAL class he taught we should not put much stock in what he said as a man, conveniently circumvented that rule by giving us his own interpretation and then quipped "I didn't write The Book!"
He was, without a doubt, the focal point of the whole operation.
There are some people who still adhere to that line of thinking.
What's even more creepy.. there are people who still have little meetings behind closed doors in smoke filled rooms, eating pickled pigs feet, busy figuring out how to carry out the master plan of "mein fuhrer"..
in a way.
That's the mind picture I have of some offshoots.
I think some have sacrificed their life, libery and conscience to the degree that they can't even consider that the vicster could have possibly been just plane WRONG. That's not even an option.
I don't think they could come to terms with the kinds of "works" they performed in the mogster's behalf.
I think some have sacrificed their life, libery and conscience to the degree that they can't even consider that the vicster could have possibly been just plane WRONG. That's not even an option.
I don't think they could come to terms with the kinds of "works" they performed in the mogster's behalf.
Ham, I think that you have just nailed why people can at times be so vigorous in their defense of twi and vpw... even to the point of being downright viscious. It appears that it is so vital that they be *right*.. .that it is nothing to treat a brother or sister savagely, to accuse them of being liars, or exaggerators, to accuse them of being weak. or wanting it, or simply indulging in hystrionics or eternal victim hood...Anything to preserve our belief of what we invested our lives into.
Some how one must completely negate, or distort the more unseemly practices and doctrines, some how diminish the damage, the magnitude of suffering...to cast doubts on the veracity of those who`s experience that contradict what we want to believe in order to preserve the image we wish to hold.
I've come to realize it wasn't the content of PFAL that really sold me on the ministry. It was believing vp's claim that God audibly said He'd teach vp "the Word." This was his trump card to validate everything he said or did.
That certainly was the icing on the cake. I was too young and too inexperienced to be able to question it at the time-so I bought in to it..(especially with the network of urban legends and myths about him that were running throughout the ministry....) which did validate what he taught. It really is a keystone to way theology, without that he is just another all over the map preacher who makes sense sometime and other times is too outlandish to consider
If I had known then what I know now, THAT would have stuck out like a sore thumb and I would realize that "hearing voices" either signifies a mental illness or other deep trauma and wouldve put VP in the category of 'needing help' as opposed to being someone to follow.
Whether he made it up or had a genuine psychotic break that he interpretted as a message from God, I cant say for sure. But I think he actually believed it, so Im inclined to think that something traumatic happened that imbalanced him toward the bizarre, such as his obsession with devil spirits, conspiracy theories and distrust of anyone 'outside'.
It really is an incredibly bizarre claim, the only other place I have ever heard anyone say it is in psychiatric wards, which people are at least smart enough to realize that its not real, but a trick of a malfunctioning mind, and they need some help
I've come to realize it wasn't the content of PFAL that really sold me on the ministry. It was believing vp's claim that God audibly said He'd teach vp "the Word." This was his trump card to validate everything he said or did.
That certainly was the icing on the cake. I was too young and too inexperienced to be able to question it at the time-so I bought in to it..(especially with the network of urban legends and myths about him that were running throughout the ministry....) which did validate what he taught. It really is a keystone to way theology, without that he is just another all over the map preacher who makes sense sometime and other times is too outlandish to consider
If I had known then what I know now, THAT would have stuck out like a sore thumb and I would realize that "hearing voices" either signifies a mental illness or other deep trauma and wouldve put VP in the category of 'needing help' as opposed to being someone to follow.
Whether he made it up or had a genuine psychotic break that he interpretted as a message from God, I cant say for sure. But I think he actually believed it, so Im inclined to think that something traumatic happened that imbalanced him toward the bizarre, such as his obsession with devil spirits, conspiracy theories and distrust of anyone 'outside'.
It really is an incredibly bizarre claim, the only other place I have ever heard anyone say it is in psychiatric wards, which people are at least smart enough to realize that its not real, but a trick of a malfunctioning mind, and they need some help.
Its an even more bizarre claim to believe but without it way doctrine topples or at least can be seen for the shizophrenic mish mosh that it is and produces
Not only did you get credit for teachiing like him but you also got cudos for acting like him too. There is still much of that going on ei.-all SNS are scripted and sensored. How dare anyone teach anything that wasn't PFAL oriented.
Whether he made it up or had a genuine psychotic break that he interpretted as a message from God, I cant say for sure. But I think he actually believed it, so Im inclined to think that something traumatic happened that imbalanced him toward the bizarre, such as his obsession with devil spirits, conspiracy theories and distrust of anyone 'outside'.
Whether he himself, actually believed his own bullsh *t or not is a good question. If he really believed it, then he was a nut case...if he knew he was lying about something so important, then he was a lowlife of the worst kind...take your pick.
I'm inclined to think that he knew he was pulling a con job on everybody...AND was a nutcase at the same time.
Ham, I think that you have just nailed why people can at times be so vigorous in their defense of twi and vpw... even to the point of being downright viscious. It appears that it is so vital that they be *right*.. .that it is nothing to treat a brother or sister savagely, to accuse them of being liars, or exaggerators, to accuse them of being weak. or wanting it, or simply indulging in hystrionics or eternal victim hood...Anything to preserve our belief of what we invested our lives into.
Some how one must completely negate, or distort the more unseemly practices and doctrines, some how diminish the damage, the magnitude of suffering...to cast doubts on the veracity of those who`s experience that contradict what we want to believe in order to preserve the image we wish to hold.
And that, Sister, is exactly why they do just that. Because to question, or leave means that they must (in their minds only) invalidate their own life and all that they worked for, which then means that they must admit that they have built with hay, wood and stubble, etc.
But better to start over and truly build something rather than continually plugging up a leaking boat. Just pray for them that God takes off their blinders before it is too late.
That certainly was the icing on the cake. I was too young and too inexperienced to be able to question it at the time-so I bought in to it..(especially with the network of urban legends and myths about him that were running throughout the ministry....) which did validate what he taught. It really is a keystone to way theology, without that he is just another all over the map preacher who makes sense sometime and other times is too outlandish to consider
If I had known then what I know now, THAT would have stuck out like a sore thumb and I would realize that "hearing voices" either signifies a mental illness or other deep trauma and wouldve put VP in the category of 'needing help' as opposed to being someone to follow.
Whether he made it up or had a genuine psychotic break that he interpretted as a message from God, I cant say for sure. But I think he actually believed it, so Im inclined to think that something traumatic happened that imbalanced him toward the bizarre, such as his obsession with devil spirits, conspiracy theories and distrust of anyone 'outside'.
It really is an incredibly bizarre claim, the only other place I have ever heard anyone say it is in psychiatric wards, which people are at least smart enough to realize that its not real, but a trick of a malfunctioning mind, and they need some help
Except that then, even prophets such as Elijah who heard that still small voice of God, becomes invalidated by what you have just said. There is a difference, a major difference between hearing the still small voice of God and claiming that you have. There are truly people who hear from the Lord God Almighty. The only difference is that when people fake it, it puts a huge blight upon those that truly do and then they must labor even harder to get God's message across to a dying world.
Except that then, even prophets such as Elijah who heard that still small voice of God, becomes invalidated by what you have just said. There is a difference, a major difference between hearing the still small voice of God and claiming that you have. There are truly people who hear from the Lord God Almighty. The only difference is that when people fake it, it puts a huge blight upon those that truly do and then they must labor even harder to get God's message across to a dying world.[/color]
That sounds like...Folks who only think they are smart annoy those of us who really are. :)
Who's to say?...I think that the bottom line is that it's a matter of personal faith and I don't place my faith in humans.
If somebody claims to be in touch with the Almighty...fine. What do they want from me?...Not money I hope.
In an ever so subtle way, vp becomes an invisible interpreter for followers. When a PFAL grad reads the Bible [even if they don't have notes from the collaterals written in the margins] through repetitive absorption of vp's material they often experience something like a "pop-up note" in their head – recalling what vp said about the verse. When you say what vp says the Word says you will have power .
The assumption that God taught vp "the Word" is at the core of a follower's convictions – and serves as a litmus test for a genuine "believer." You tell me what you think of vp and I'll tell you how far you're going to go spiritually . Another funny twist of a PFAL quote – but true…in a spiritually dark sense. Because the commitment level that vp demanded of followers acts like a vacuum to suck people in to his dazzling delusions of grandeur.
Yup…vp was essential to a follower's belief system.
Oh T-Bone,
You bring back some painful memories! On the wow field we studied those (blue, green, tan) books more than any of us opened our Bibles.
and when we taught, any chapter from them would do. We thought we was pleasin God :(
Today, to remember that, I pray that God might forgive. . .
Those pop-ups that you describe (a really good analogy BTW) are so ingrained. If we were not 'mind controlled' (as some deny), then we sure were programmed.
Now when I'm in any kind of church, or study group, if those pop-ups raise their ugly heads; I ask the group about em. It is always refreshing to hear the responses, because they come from people that vp never touched.
IMO, vp himself believed what he taught. At least he had convinced himself of it. To keep up the facade of such a con for so long, I think he'd have to.
It probably helped that no disagreement was really tolerated around him.
In an ever so subtle way, vp becomes an invisible interpreter for followers. When a PFAL grad reads the Bible [even if they don't have notes from the collaterals written in the margins] through repetitive absorption of vp's material they often experience something like a "pop-up note" in their head – recalling what vp said about the verse. When you say what vp says the Word says you will have power .
The assumption that God taught vp "the Word" is at the core of a follower's convictions – and serves as a litmus test for a genuine "believer." You tell me what you think of vp and I'll tell you how far you're going to go spiritually . Another funny twist of a PFAL quote – but true…in a spiritually dark sense. Because the commitment level that vp demanded of followers acts like a vacuum to suck people in to his dazzling delusions of grandeur.
Yup…vp was essential to a follower's belief system.
Oh T-Bone,
You bring back some painful memories! On the wow field we studied those (blue, green, tan) books more than any of us opened our Bibles.
and when we taught, any chapter from them would do. We thought we was pleasin God :(
Today, to remember that, I pray that God might forgive. . .
Those pop-ups that you describe (a really good analogy BTW) are so ingrained. If we were not 'mind controlled' (as some deny), then we sure were programmed.
Now when I'm in any kind of church, or study group, if those pop-ups raise their ugly heads; I ask the group about em. It is always refreshing to hear the responses, because they come from people that vp never touched.
IMO, vp himself believed what he taught. At least he had convinced himself of it. To keep up the facade of such a con for so long, I think he'd have to.
It probably helped that no disagreement was really tolerated around him.
This is the only way that you get rid of those pop-ups, Wing:
Ephesians 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.
I may be mistaken, but I don't think mstar was saying "show me" as in "show me a sign", or "do me a mirackle", but "show me" as in "your life and how you conduct yourself will be an indication of your connection to your god".
your life and how you conduct yourself will be an indication of your connection to your god".
Anyone can talk--and they do-----Your life and what you do say way more than your words will ever say. If someone indeed has some 'special connection' it will eventually be apparent ---by their fruits you shall know them...
I may be mistaken, but I don't think mstar was saying "show me" as in "show me a sign", or "do me a mirackle", but "show me" as in "your life and how you conduct yourself will be an indication of your connection to your god".
On this thing, all we have to "show" for our "fruit" is our words. Since most of us do not live near enough to each other to fellowship, except by our exchanges on
this board.
All that I know, is that I do hear from the Lord God Almighty, He has led me through situations that by the natural flesh realms would have been impossible to
live through, or come through unscathed....
Can I "prove" this to you? Absolutely not, since it is intensely subjective, being that I cannot share my spiritual experiences with you as they are happening....
therefore, my words are all that I have, Oakspear.
The person's words will only be what they have to communicate this unique relationship with the Creator...so I guess it comes down to seeing what the person's life
Now when I'm in any kind of church, or study group, if those pop-ups raise their ugly heads; I ask the group about em. It is always refreshing to hear the responses, because they come from people that vp never touched.
Yeah, I do that too sometimes (though not usually giving a reason why I raise an idea). Some of the responses from the church home group I go to border on the incredulous and oftentimes several of the group "jump" on me trying to say how wrong an idea is. I weigh their possible indoctrination/group think against everything I know from elsewhere.
Other times, they think I am making some very wise comment.
As a whole, although they are mature Christians of many years standing, with a deep love and confidence in God/LJC, they don't know as much of the Bible that most TWI folks that have been around only a few months would know. But they don't know it disjointedly either (like TWI folks).
And I go to a really good church where I hear a lot of stuff that completely knocks out TWI teaching. For instance last week there was a teaching on humility and the heart of a leader and following a leader etc etc but the vicar is sooo humble and is always the first to point out his own errors and use them as a teaching point for what he is saying. The qas a Q&A session at the end and someone asked him how it would go if someone in the congregation disagreed with him. His answer was so kind and tender. And there are proper ways of sorting out disagreements within the church.
That's washing with the Word. Seeing it lived in a different way.
I don't always agree with what's taught, but I have the option to disagree, to think about it for myself, to see if there is anything from Waydaze that is relevant, and to make up my own mind[/i (now that I've got it back).
That certainly was the icing on the cake. I was too young and too inexperienced to be able to question it at the time-so I bought in to it..(especially with the network of urban legends and myths about him that were running throughout the ministry....) which did validate what he taught. It really is a keystone to way theology, without that he is just another all over the map preacher who makes sense sometime and other times is too outlandish to consider
If I had known then what I know now, THAT would have stuck out like a sore thumb and I would realize that "hearing voices" either signifies a mental illness or other deep trauma and wouldve put VP in the category of 'needing help' as opposed to being someone to follow.
Whether he made it up or had a genuine psychotic break that he interpretted as a message from God, I cant say for sure. But I think he actually believed it, so Im inclined to think that something traumatic happened that imbalanced him toward the bizarre, such as his obsession with devil spirits, conspiracy theories and distrust of anyone 'outside'.
It really is an incredibly bizarre claim, the only other place I have ever heard anyone say it is in psychiatric wards, which people are at least smart enough to realize that its not real, but a trick of a malfunctioning mind, and they need some help.
Its an even more bizarre claim to believe but without it way doctrine topples or at least can be seen for the shizophrenic mish mosh that it is and produces
...Except that then, even prophets such as Elijah who heard that still small voice of God, becomes invalidated by what you have just said. There is a difference, a major difference between hearing the still small voice of God and claiming that you have. There are truly people who hear from the Lord God Almighty. The only difference is that when people fake it, it puts a huge blight upon those that truly do and then they must labor even harder to get God's message across to a dying world.
There some interesting points in both of these posts…Even after realizing I was deceived by vp – there NEVER was a time afterwards when I doubted the inspiration of the Scriptures. Matter of fact, the more I read the Bible and studied systematic theology, biblical hermeneutics, etc., the more I realized how simple God's message really is. My "crisis of faith" came as a keen awareness of two things: a convoluted paradigm - a twisted theological overlay [the aforementioned PFAL-colored glasses], superimposed on the Bible by vp – AND– of a distant relationship with my Lord…I am happy to report that returning to a simple reading of Scripture has served to close the gap on that relationship!
Yeah, obviously my being wary of anyone claiming to hear from God has a lot to do with being hoodwinked for twelve years by vp. What's wrong with that? There's enough passages throughout the Bible that really do put the onus back on anyone wanting to follow the Lord. There's a wealth of wisdom in Proverbs alone – with warnings against being gullible and to develop critical thinking skills. Then there's the clear directives in the New Testament – to prove all things, to scrutinize words, deeds, doctrines, and fruit.
Maybe that's one of the reasons why TWI offshoots can be problematic – they're often based on the assumption that a select few are hearing from God – and thusly empowered to pick out the "best stuff" of vp…
There's a lot to be said for the simple preaching of the Bible – where the validity of the message is based solely upon the honest use of ScriptureANDplain reason rather than the preacher claiming they heard from God.
~~
As I was drafting this post I kept thinking about the last part of my first post:
T-Bone post # 1
...Even the decision-making process modeled by leaders was Wierwille-centric. I remember LCM describing in VP and Me,atthe early stage of his presidency he'd visualize how vp would handle a situation. I like to shorten that principle to something easier to remember – WWWD – What Would Wierwille Do?
If memory serves me right – I think LCM went on to say as time progressed – this sort of morphed into God showing him directly what to do. I started this thread merely to relate my experiences and observations – which touch upon a myriad of issues, practices and processes. In my opinion, the decision-making process is probably one of the most important issues an ex-TWI follower should address. Here's one thread, Decision-making and the Will of God some may find interesting:
Twinky brought up some good points in response to the concept of "pop-ups". Sure, we ex-wayfers have the still annoying voice of Wierwille chiming in when we think about a section of the bible, but are most Christians any better? How many view what we were taught in TWI with incredulity only because they have their own "pop-ups" instilled by their own leaders and not because they have done any deep study of their own?
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skyrider
Yes, t-bone.......imo.....this idolizing wierwille was/is lurking in the belly of the twi-beast.
Yet, it is intricately interwoven into the fabric of twi's history, pfal, publications, corps program, etc........and FEW ever step back and recognize it for what it is.......LIKE YOU JUST DID.
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waysider
We experimented with the "3 minute teaching" very briefly in Fellow Laborers.
It was short lived.
There were about 6 people in each of our night twigs and any one of us could be called on to give a short teaching.
People where so danged tired at 10PM, after having been on the go since 5AM, they would either read for 3 minutes from Ephesians, because "Dr." had said you could study it for a lifetime and never master it, or crack open "The Blue Book" because "Dr." had written it.
Who could argue you weren't following directions?
When I took acting classes, many years ago, we were taught that an actor should always have a 2 minute and a 5 minute presentation that could be given at a moments notice.
Having a short teaching always ready is, in itself, not a bad concept.
But, like so many other things in TWI, it morphed into something that was inordinately applied creepy!
Funny, isn't it, how in the PFAL class he taught we should not put much stock in what he said as a man, conveniently circumvented that rule by giving us his own interpretation and then quipped "I didn't write The Book!"
He was, without a doubt, the focal point of the whole operation.
There are some people who still adhere to that line of thinking.
They have my sympathy.
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Ham
What's even more creepy.. there are people who still have little meetings behind closed doors in smoke filled rooms, eating pickled pigs feet, busy figuring out how to carry out the master plan of "mein fuhrer"..
in a way.
That's the mind picture I have of some offshoots.
I think some have sacrificed their life, libery and conscience to the degree that they can't even consider that the vicster could have possibly been just plane WRONG. That's not even an option.
I don't think they could come to terms with the kinds of "works" they performed in the mogster's behalf.
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rascal
Ham, I think that you have just nailed why people can at times be so vigorous in their defense of twi and vpw... even to the point of being downright viscious. It appears that it is so vital that they be *right*.. .that it is nothing to treat a brother or sister savagely, to accuse them of being liars, or exaggerators, to accuse them of being weak. or wanting it, or simply indulging in hystrionics or eternal victim hood...Anything to preserve our belief of what we invested our lives into.
Some how one must completely negate, or distort the more unseemly practices and doctrines, some how diminish the damage, the magnitude of suffering...to cast doubts on the veracity of those who`s experience that contradict what we want to believe in order to preserve the image we wish to hold.
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mstar1
That certainly was the icing on the cake. I was too young and too inexperienced to be able to question it at the time-so I bought in to it..(especially with the network of urban legends and myths about him that were running throughout the ministry....) which did validate what he taught. It really is a keystone to way theology, without that he is just another all over the map preacher who makes sense sometime and other times is too outlandish to consider
If I had known then what I know now, THAT would have stuck out like a sore thumb and I would realize that "hearing voices" either signifies a mental illness or other deep trauma and wouldve put VP in the category of 'needing help' as opposed to being someone to follow.
Whether he made it up or had a genuine psychotic break that he interpretted as a message from God, I cant say for sure. But I think he actually believed it, so Im inclined to think that something traumatic happened that imbalanced him toward the bizarre, such as his obsession with devil spirits, conspiracy theories and distrust of anyone 'outside'.
It really is an incredibly bizarre claim, the only other place I have ever heard anyone say it is in psychiatric wards, which people are at least smart enough to realize that its not real, but a trick of a malfunctioning mind, and they need some help
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mstar1
That certainly was the icing on the cake. I was too young and too inexperienced to be able to question it at the time-so I bought in to it..(especially with the network of urban legends and myths about him that were running throughout the ministry....) which did validate what he taught. It really is a keystone to way theology, without that he is just another all over the map preacher who makes sense sometime and other times is too outlandish to consider
If I had known then what I know now, THAT would have stuck out like a sore thumb and I would realize that "hearing voices" either signifies a mental illness or other deep trauma and wouldve put VP in the category of 'needing help' as opposed to being someone to follow.
Whether he made it up or had a genuine psychotic break that he interpretted as a message from God, I cant say for sure. But I think he actually believed it, so Im inclined to think that something traumatic happened that imbalanced him toward the bizarre, such as his obsession with devil spirits, conspiracy theories and distrust of anyone 'outside'.
It really is an incredibly bizarre claim, the only other place I have ever heard anyone say it is in psychiatric wards, which people are at least smart enough to realize that its not real, but a trick of a malfunctioning mind, and they need some help.
Its an even more bizarre claim to believe but without it way doctrine topples or at least can be seen for the shizophrenic mish mosh that it is and produces
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polar bear
Good stuff T-Bone-
Not only did you get credit for teachiing like him but you also got cudos for acting like him too. There is still much of that going on ei.-all SNS are scripted and sensored. How dare anyone teach anything that wasn't PFAL oriented.
Escuse me while I get sick. Baaaaaaaarf.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Whether he himself, actually believed his own bullsh *t or not is a good question. If he really believed it, then he was a nut case...if he knew he was lying about something so important, then he was a lowlife of the worst kind...take your pick.
I'm inclined to think that he knew he was pulling a con job on everybody...AND was a nutcase at the same time.
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brideofjc
And that, Sister, is exactly why they do just that. Because to question, or leave means that they must (in their minds only) invalidate their own life and all that they worked for, which then means that they must admit that they have built with hay, wood and stubble, etc.
But better to start over and truly build something rather than continually plugging up a leaking boat. Just pray for them that God takes off their blinders before it is too late.
Except that then, even prophets such as Elijah who heard that still small voice of God, becomes invalidated by what you have just said. There is a difference, a major difference between hearing the still small voice of God and claiming that you have. There are truly people who hear from the Lord God Almighty. The only difference is that when people fake it, it puts a huge blight upon those that truly do and then they must labor even harder to get God's message across to a dying world.
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GrouchoMarxJr
That sounds like...Folks who only think they are smart annoy those of us who really are. :)
Who's to say?...I think that the bottom line is that it's a matter of personal faith and I don't place my faith in humans.
If somebody claims to be in touch with the Almighty...fine. What do they want from me?...Not money I hope.
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mstar1
Umm.... maybe----If its true It will show in what they DO, Why do I need to hear about it? Im not a big fan of namedroppers.
Show me
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brideofjc
And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.
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wing
T-Bone wrote. . .
In an ever so subtle way, vp becomes an invisible interpreter for followers. When a PFAL grad reads the Bible [even if they don't have notes from the collaterals written in the margins] through repetitive absorption of vp's material they often experience something like a "pop-up note" in their head – recalling what vp said about the verse. When you say what vp says the Word says you will have power
.
The assumption that God taught vp "the Word" is at the core of a follower's convictions – and serves as a litmus test for a genuine "believer." You tell me what you think of vp and I'll tell you how far you're going to go spiritually
. Another funny twist of a PFAL quote – but true…in a spiritually dark sense. Because the commitment level that vp demanded of followers acts like a vacuum to suck people in to his dazzling delusions of grandeur.
Yup…vp was essential to a follower's belief system.
Oh T-Bone,
You bring back some painful memories! On the wow field we studied those (blue, green, tan) books more than any of us opened our Bibles.
and when we taught, any chapter from them would do. We thought we was pleasin God :(
Today, to remember that, I pray that God might forgive. . .
Those pop-ups that you describe (a really good analogy BTW) are so ingrained. If we were not 'mind controlled' (as some deny), then we sure were programmed.
Now when I'm in any kind of church, or study group, if those pop-ups raise their ugly heads; I ask the group about em. It is always refreshing to hear the responses, because they come from people that vp never touched.
IMO, vp himself believed what he taught. At least he had convinced himself of it. To keep up the facade of such a con for so long, I think he'd have to.
It probably helped that no disagreement was really tolerated around him.
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brideofjc
This is the only way that you get rid of those pop-ups, Wing:
Ephesians 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
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Oakspear
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mstar1
Thank You Oak, thats exactly what i meant--
Anyone can talk--and they do-----Your life and what you do say way more than your words will ever say. If someone indeed has some 'special connection' it will eventually be apparent ---by their fruits you shall know them...
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excathedra
seriously who the heck needs to tell us about their connection to god almighty ?
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brideofjc
On this thing, all we have to "show" for our "fruit" is our words. Since most of us do not live near enough to each other to fellowship, except by our exchanges on
this board.
All that I know, is that I do hear from the Lord God Almighty, He has led me through situations that by the natural flesh realms would have been impossible to
live through, or come through unscathed....
Can I "prove" this to you? Absolutely not, since it is intensely subjective, being that I cannot share my spiritual experiences with you as they are happening....
therefore, my words are all that I have, Oakspear.
The person's words will only be what they have to communicate this unique relationship with the Creator...so I guess it comes down to seeing what the person's life
speaks about them.
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excathedra
i just talked to my mom two minutes ago
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Twinky
Yeah, I do that too sometimes (though not usually giving a reason why I raise an idea). Some of the responses from the church home group I go to border on the incredulous and oftentimes several of the group "jump" on me trying to say how wrong an idea is. I weigh their possible indoctrination/group think against everything I know from elsewhere.
Other times, they think I am making some very wise comment.
As a whole, although they are mature Christians of many years standing, with a deep love and confidence in God/LJC, they don't know as much of the Bible that most TWI folks that have been around only a few months would know. But they don't know it disjointedly either (like TWI folks).
And I go to a really good church where I hear a lot of stuff that completely knocks out TWI teaching. For instance last week there was a teaching on humility and the heart of a leader and following a leader etc etc but the vicar is sooo humble and is always the first to point out his own errors and use them as a teaching point for what he is saying. The qas a Q&A session at the end and someone asked him how it would go if someone in the congregation disagreed with him. His answer was so kind and tender. And there are proper ways of sorting out disagreements within the church.
That's washing with the Word. Seeing it lived in a different way.
I don't always agree with what's taught, but I have the option to disagree, to think about it for myself, to see if there is anything from Waydaze that is relevant, and to make up my own mind[/i (now that I've got it back).
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Twinky
Oops double post
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T-Bone
There some interesting points in both of these posts…Even after realizing I was deceived by vp – there NEVER was a time afterwards when I doubted the inspiration of the Scriptures. Matter of fact, the more I read the Bible and studied systematic theology, biblical hermeneutics, etc., the more I realized how simple God's message really is. My "crisis of faith" came as a keen awareness of two things: a convoluted paradigm - a twisted theological overlay [the aforementioned PFAL-colored glasses], superimposed on the Bible by vp – AND – of a distant relationship with my Lord…I am happy to report that returning to a simple reading of Scripture has served to close the gap on that relationship!
Yeah, obviously my being wary of anyone claiming to hear from God has a lot to do with being hoodwinked for twelve years by vp. What's wrong with that? There's enough passages throughout the Bible that really do put the onus back on anyone wanting to follow the Lord. There's a wealth of wisdom in Proverbs alone – with warnings against being gullible and to develop critical thinking skills. Then there's the clear directives in the New Testament – to prove all things, to scrutinize words, deeds, doctrines, and fruit.
Maybe that's one of the reasons why TWI offshoots can be problematic – they're often based on the assumption that a select few are hearing from God – and thusly empowered to pick out the "best stuff" of vp…
There's a lot to be said for the simple preaching of the Bible – where the validity of the message is based solely upon the honest use of Scripture AND plain reason rather than the preacher claiming they heard from God.
~~
As I was drafting this post I kept thinking about the last part of my first post:
If memory serves me right – I think LCM went on to say as time progressed – this sort of morphed into God showing him directly what to do. I started this thread merely to relate my experiences and observations – which touch upon a myriad of issues, practices and processes. In my opinion, the decision-making process is probably one of the most important issues an ex-TWI follower should address. Here's one thread, Decision-making and the Will of God some may find interesting:
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=310314
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excathedra
do what you do
and i'll do what i do
love,me
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Oakspear
Twinky brought up some good points in response to the concept of "pop-ups". Sure, we ex-wayfers have the still annoying voice of Wierwille chiming in when we think about a section of the bible, but are most Christians any better? How many view what we were taught in TWI with incredulity only because they have their own "pop-ups" instilled by their own leaders and not because they have done any deep study of their own?
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