Show me that in the promo literature or promo words about any of the programs!
For the record : from The Way Corps A Lifetime of Christian Service
Physical training is a valuable part of The Way Corps training. Because the Christian believer is a three - part being,his life must be balanced spiritually, mentally, and in order for him to be at his best. Through participation in LEAD Outdoor Academy International, Way Corps students learn to develop mental, flexibility and physical stamina. Students build an attitude of "I can do ,therefore I do" and learn to live abundantly.
For the record : from The Way Corps A Lifetime of Christian Service
Physical training is a valuable part of The Way Corps training. Because the Christian believer is a three - part being,his life must be balanced spiritually, mentally, and in order for him to be at his best. Through participation in LEAD Outdoor Academy International, Way Corps students learn to develop mental, flexibility and physical stamina. Students build an attitude of "I can do ,therefore I do" and learn to live abundantly.
I'd say that qualifies as toughen up
I find myself inclined to disagree with you on this assessment.
First
The original "toughen up" comment was made in direct response to me, regarding an incident I posted that happened in Fellow Laborers(not The Way Corps) in the mid 1970's
There was no LEAD program for fellow Laborers nor did the Corps program always include LEAD.
Second
I was incorrectly portrayed as a weakling who was playing the "victim" card.
I never said I felt like I, myself, was a victim, though I have stated that I did see others who were, what I would consider to be, victimized.
Third
The incident was rationalized as part of a *growing process* that I should have anticipated and that I was at fault for not doing that.
Nowhere in any agreement that Fellow Laborers made was there ever any indication we would be subjected to what amounted to abusive treatment, which tends to have more of a tendency to stifle growth than to promote it.
Fourth
Physical training is NOT synonymous with "toughening up".
The physical training we received in Fellow Laborers came in the form of calisthenics and jogging.
It was not a "toughening up" process.
Physical training is not even relevant to the particular incident.
Waysider was no weakling; neither was I. We were doing the best we could. Toughen up? I thought God's people were to be tender and kindhearted. Who said we needed to toughen up? Someone who doesn't know beans from barium would be my guess.
I find myself inclined to disagree with you on this assessment.
First
The original "toughen up" comment was made in direct response to me, regarding an incident I posted that happened in Fellow Laborers(not The Way Corps) in the mid 1970's
There was no LEAD program for fellow Laborers nor did the Corps program always include LEAD.
Second
I was incorrectly portrayed as a weakling who was playing the "victim" card.
I never said I felt like I, myself, was a victim, though I have stated that I did see others who were, what I would consider to be, victimized.
Third
The incident was rationalized as part of a *growing process* that I should have anticipated and that I was at fault for not doing that.
Nowhere in any agreement that Fellow Laborers made was there ever any indication we would be subjected to what amounted to abusive treatment, which tends to have more of a tendency to stifle growth than to promote it.
Fourth
Physical training is NOT synonymous with "toughening up".
The physical training we received in Fellow Laborers came in the form of calisthenics and jogging.
It was not a "toughening up" process.
Physical training is not even relevant to the particular incident.
The original toughening up statement had nothing to do with the level of physical training we should have expected.
If anything, people who knew me in Fellow Laborers probably thought I needed a little "softening up", not "toughening up".
My response was limited to the remark that was quoted I have no information on your specific case.
The remark was Show me that in the promo literature or promo words about any of the programs! While the word toughening up". was not used specifically the concept to which was refered to was. It was not limited to Lead either.
For the record : from The Way Corps A Lifetime of Christian Service
Physical training is a valuable part of The Way Corps training. Because the Christian believer is a three - part being,his life must be balanced spiritually, mentally, and in order for him to be at his best. Through participation in LEAD Outdoor Academy International, Way Corps students learn to develop mental, flexibility and physical stamina. Students build an attitude of "I can do ,therefore I do" and learn to live abundantly.
I'd say that qualifies as toughen up
Once Again............discussing any corps BROCHURES or PROMOS is ALL RELATIVE.
Each corps year was different.....different coordinators, different situations, different locations......etc. etc.
LEAD.....there was NO "LEAD" program in the early corps.....and, then TFI surfaced for a couple of years.
Discussing corps brochures is like............trying to shoot a scurrying rabbit.....that little feller zigs and zags, darting and stopping, even with a 20-guage shotgun it's not easy.
My first question, which is multi-faceted, is this:
How many, who participate here, went into their respective programs, whether it was WOW, Fellow Laborers, Way Corps or other, with any kind of advance notice that the programs were designed, in part, to "toughen you up"? What does the expression,"toughen you up" mean?
My wife and I expected the Way Corps to be challenging in assorted ways but based on what we knew of it from the first 3 Corpszes and what our goals were, the term "toughen up" would have meant along the lines of maturing and increasing our personal capabilities in Christian ministry. I don't remember it being used directly, maybe it was, if it was it and similar terms would have been looked at benevolently, not in a negative way.
Keep in mind - the "physical" training was basically bulls-it. Meaning there was some, but it was a work in progress at first, developed on the fly each year by each corps. The face of it was "running" in the mornings.
The "running" thing started when the 1st Corps did it, and it took on a life of it's own. They "ran" a few times a week, a distance known as "to the Stop sign and back" - down Weirwille Rd to think it was Shelby, due west, and then back. A little less than a mile. It was done as a group, go run, shower, start your day. That was hardly extreme physical training, and given you had guys like Del D. there, you know it was more of a hoot than a holler.
It took on a life of it's own and became a whole regimen. The corps group in size, blah blah blah. But it was based on bunch of guys and girls runnning down a road and back, to get some exercise.
Some people like me actually came to enjoy the running. I did a lof it and developed a personal training program for myself. I really enjoyed mid to long distance running for a few years, 3 miles and up. It was an interesting thing for me to do personally, mild by some standards, but I never expected anyone else to do what I was doing. "Running" in the morning became a cup o' coffee more or less, even when we started going longer distances. (which wasted a lot of the program's time having the whole group do it, IMO).
I don't know how I'd evaulate the "mental" aspect of it. I never really "toughened up" in that area I think, for better or worse.
Question #2:
Do you think of yourself as a "weakling getting victimized"?
(Either then or currently?)
No.
Question #3:
Although I'm sure, that, at the time, we must have seen it as a "challenge to do bigger and better things", does that challenge include sweeping these things under the rug and pretending they were insignificant?
I'm not sure what "these things" means. Some stories are better left untold, IMO. Personal matters are personal and there are areas where I don't feel free to discuss certain things directly because I don't want to do harm to others or myself, for that matter. Anything addressed to me directly I would try to answer in that light. I don't take liberties where I feel it would hurt someone today, all these years later. We're talking things 30 years old or more, in some cases. That's a lot of water under the bridge.
Still, I do post things here that aren't entirely positive at times about events and people past. I know there are larger issues being discussed here. I try to honor the memory and intentions of the day, as much as possible. Other than that, not saying something doesn't mean it's been swept away, it can also mean it's not appropriate for the time or place. IMO.
That may be..... but the challenge was to discuss them so I did
Be carefull what you ask for especially when you dion't know what you are talking about.
Be careful......you might *be reading posts on corps issues* (or otherwise)......from SOMEONE who never went corps and has NO IDEA what he's talking about.
My first question, which is multi-faceted, is this:
How many, who participate here, went into their respective programs, whether it was WOW, Fellow Laborers, Way Corps or other, with any kind of advance notice that the programs were designed, in part, to "toughen you up"? What does the expression,"toughen you up" mean?
My wife and I expected the Way Corps to be challenging in assorted ways but based on what we knew of it from the first 3 Corpszes and what our goals were, the term "toughen up" would have meant along the lines of maturing and increasing our personal capabilities in Christian ministry. I don't remember it being used directly, maybe it was, if it was it and similar terms would have been looked at benevolently, not in a negative way.
Keep in mind - the "physical" training was basically bulls-it. Meaning there was some, but it was a work in progress at first, developed on the fly each year by each corps. The face of it was "running" in the mornings.
The "running" thing started when the 1st Corps did it, and it took on a life of it's own. They "ran" a few times a week, a distance known as "to the Stop sign and back"......
socks.......I'll take a shot at answering your multi-faceted question.
Disclaimer: I do not have the time nor inkling to qualify the multi-varied processes of "this corps preparation and training" from some 30 years ago. But to say just a few things.....here goes...
For me, I came from an athletic background.....football, basketball, track & field. The "physical training" was no big deal......but I did have empathy for some who were overweight, or physically handicapped, etc. To me, I viewed the whole corps "training" like a TEAM sport. We're all on ONE TEAM. Nothing more, nothing less.
IMO, when some talk about the "toughening up"......I tend to view that more in the MENTAL/PSYCHO-EMOTIONAL areas....but perhaps, that's just me. I never expected the YELL-FESTS, THE VERBAL ABUSE, THE VERBAL LASHINGS THAT WOUNDED AND SCARRED.........to me, the corps "training" was really A WIERWILLE-INDOCTRINATION.
IMO, the whole thrust and impetus of wierwille's corps "training" was contorted......it totally missed the mark of imparting Christian wholeness and leadership to those involved. Just to name a few.......conspiracy theories, MAL-PACK meetings, fear tactics, secret agendas, select favortism, sexual abuse agendas, public humiliation, scorning, etc. etc.......in hindsight, I know that I stayed because of my athletic upbringing and not wanting to be a quitter.
WHAT YOU LOOK AT.....YOU BECOME.
It's no wonder, to me, that many corps graduates became hard-hearted leaders on the field. Or, they would mimic wierwille's mannerisms, his teaching style, get a German shorthair dog, etc........some idolized the man. Obviously, some still do.
On so many levels, the "toughened attitude" was REALLY.........a hard-heartedness. Even today, there are still posters who come to the GS boards and criticize corps grads....when, in truth, they just don't trace that criticism back to its source. "Nazi corps training.......yields nazi-corps." Not all, but alot.
Anyways......I gotta run, but wanted to post a few thoughts.
Thanks Sky. The questions are waysider's, repeated in Bold, with my answers underneath each.
Exposure to VPW was one of my primary goals, going "in". Way Productions was the other. I got both, as expected.
I think you're right about the root cause and source of the misdirected training program. On GS I read posts that lay the blame on Way Corps - the evil Way Corps, bad "students" who didn't follow the direction of their teacher and his example who, if they had, would have done fine.
Completely ignores the facts. And those who were exposed to him and his program directly can speak for themselves of course and should. But when I look back at the 1st Way Corps, they were all pretty much extremely nice, kind and approachable people in those first years. Very warm, working to gain some experience and wisdom. As the next few years progressed, each group came "in" and by and large the same kind of attitudes were prevalent. There were weaknesses and strengths as you'd expect in people so young - early 20's most. These were formative years.
Not everyone formed "perfectly" by any means, but by and large I think looking back I can see all the various personality types in those first few years of the Way Corps. Some were more aggressive than others, some wanted a simple lifestyle and approach to Christian ministry, others wanted a more structured and controlled environment. None of that is wrong inherently, most of the interests could have contributed to a very diverse and effective "Way Ministry". And there were some problems along the way too. But overall, nothing all that extraordinary.
VPW's influence was major. Primary. He was "the man", the Teacher of PFAL, the draw. Two things informed the Way Nash environment that he brought to it that made it extremely difficult to work together - anger, and conflict.
He had a temper and it blew full force often. That produced fear in people - if VPW got tanked up on something and blew a gasket, people got fired, reamed, humilated, scorched. You had to really "toughen up" if you wanted to work with him at those times. Otherwise you either tried to avoid him or wait it out.
Young people are heavily affected by that. It produces all kinds of negative toxic stuff - fear, resentment, misunderstanding. Avoidance - biggie. Avoid whatever makes VPW p.o.'d and he's happy. That leaves a lot out of the mix in the relationship, it tips one-sided, things that need to be addressed aren't or if they are it's extremely difficult. It's easy to postulate "that was the price to be paid" but that's wrong IMO - that isn't a price worthy of charging.
It's not idle speculation to consider - why should anyone have to belch through that kind of stuff? It just shoots whatever you're trying to do in the foot finding that every month or so something's going to blow that gasket and instead of working through it intelligently and lovingly people are going to have to weather this s-it storm. How can you move ahead knowing that at any moment what you're doing will be deemed "completely screwed up" and straight from the devil himself and end up being micro-managed to the point it's lifeless?
It also offers a view to the heart of the man - something's keeping that anger stoked. The resentment of past experience, conflicting interests (ministry, theology, business, profits)...personal situations, inabliity to accept criticism and differing ideas. Resistance to change. Could be some, all, others.
Conflict - I feel now looking back that VPW tried to mix his interests of Christian ministry, business and entertaiment and succeed in all of them through the Way Ministry. The Way became a religious business for practical purposes, selling PFAL as a way to produce profit streams and build a "profitable" self-sustaining ministry. I've posted this before, it's not a unique perspective.
For a man who said he had God's instruction on the bible in a way not known for 2000 years, that is a dangerous combination. The system of marketing that teaching through PFAL produced an unsolvable conflict IMO - A. people need what PFAL teaches and can't be true Christians as God wants without it. B. You can't have it unless you pay for it.
There's no way that deal will work in the long run, it opens the door up for all kinds of problems. Lots of people think it's doable - but time and again those who try to do it run into the same kinds of problems any profit-based non-religious financial endeavor does and tanks because unlike a normal business, religious endeavors like the Way Ministry fly under their own Country's Flag, with self styled systems of accountablity. "God" is the accounter - and in ministry's like the Way He tends to agree with every hair brained plan laid and when they go awry it's everyone else's fault but their own so there's no learning, no progress, just more of the same.
So for me the idea of "toughening" up in order to have a functioning relationship with VPW was useless. It was what it was. I did learn some good and useful things from my time around and working with him. I also learned I'd never work with young people that way, so it did help me immensely in raising my kids and many other situations.
One time(and there were many) we were rousted out of bed in the middle of the night, ordered to drive to limb HQ within a time frame that was physically impossible to meet, and ordered to sit in total silence and darkness for what seemed to be an eternity.
When the meeting started, we were castigated for tardiness and told that we, the Fellow Laborers , were the reason that the ultimate goal of Word Over The World was in jeopardy.
You see, it was told to us that our performance was a total disgrace to "God and His Word" and since we were in the "birthplace" of the ministry, we were dragging the whole ministry down"spiritually".
We had no idea what we could have possibly done.
There was no question and answer session.
We were forbidden to discuss it.
We were forbidden to speak during the meeting
The program was to be terminated when the sun came up.
The next morning, we all met one last time at our 5 am meeting and were informed that we were being given one more chance but we would have to follow orders to a tee without question or else.
Are you seriously telling me that you don't see elements of mind control in that incident?
No I don't view it that way. I view it as all part of the program to toughen you guys up. Instead of looking at it like a weakling getting victimized, take it as a challenge to do bigger and better things. That was the attitude of mine in the corps despite all the wacky stuff we did there too
Thanks Sky. The questions are waysider's, repeated in Bold, with my answers underneath each.
Exposure to VPW was one of my primary goals, going "in". Way Productions was the other. I got both, as expected.
I think you're right about the root cause and source of the misdirected training program. On GS I read posts that lay the blame on Way Corps - the evil Way Corps, bad "students" who didn't follow the direction of their teacher and his example who, if they had, would have done fine.
Completely ignores the facts. And those who were exposed to him and his program directly can speak for themselves of course and should. But when I look back at the 1st Way Corps, they were all pretty much extremely nice, kind and approachable people in those first years. Very warm, working to gain some experience and wisdom. As the next few years progressed, each group came "in" and by and large the same kind of attitudes were prevalent. There were weaknesses and strengths as you'd expect in people so young - early 20's most. These were formative years.
Not everyone formed "perfectly" by any means, but by and large I think looking back I can see all the various personality types in those first few years of the Way Corps.....
socks.......from where I sit today, it is near to impossible to transcend back in time some 32 years ago when I decided to go into the corps.......BUT.....I also remind myself that wierwille was near 59 years old and the "leverage" he held over us young bucks.
Heck, wierwille BACK THEN.......was STILL OLDER than I am today, by many years. :blink:
Why did wierwille want to pattern the corps after the marine corps??.....why didn't he pattern his "you are the best" program after "jesus with his disciples?"........or, an "oral roberts university with more truth?"
IMO, wierwille patterned his corps program to instill discipline, fear and twi-mandated servitude. As the old cliche goes....."it was his way or the highway"......and the zero corps stood as a testimony to this. And, with youth...... instilling discipline (insert - "toughen up") is a building block that cannot be bypassed.
Another thing......quality versus quantity. I personally think that wierwille, nearing 60 years old, had QUANTITY (...and $$$$$...) ahead of QUALITY......his productive years were quickly slipping by and there was just too many irons in the fire......during those 1976-1982 years. Lots of things, for sure......but with the corps program, way productions, publications, campus locations, cult-accusations, word in culture, girls-in-the-motorcoach, etc.......the juggling of "doing things well" got very sloppy, irritable, and mean-spirited.
That's why........it's near IMPOSSIBLE to discuss "the corps experience".......socks, your experience was TOTALLY different than mine......and mine was TOTALLY different than a 17th corps person......etc. etc. Promos changed, brochures changed, the training-impetus changed, new locations added, bull-riding school, hitch-hiking guidelines changed, corps hook-ups on the field became mandatory,.......more hoops, more hoops.
And, imo..........from my 24 years twi-experience........1994-1997 was the worst. Still, martindale DEMANDED those corps phone hook-ups and the VERBAL THRASHINGS EVERY WEEK were excruciating. So many good people trashed over the ridiculous, insignificant things. Martindale had learned well from his teacher. Even then, after some 16 years as a corps grad......the "toughen up" spiel was blugeoning the corps weekly.
.....why didn't he pattern his "you are the best" program after "jesus with his disciples?"........
Great post, Sky
Sorry to cut so much of your post out but I only wanted to comment on this one item, regarding "Jesus with his disciples".
I think for some of us, the possibility of "studying at the master's feet" ("Jesus with his disciples") was a big draw.
Of course, in Fellow Laborers, we didn't have VPW but the concept was the same.
Both programs were heavily promoted as being patterned after this format.
Based on a thread that appeared here a while back, I think there must have been some of that very early on, but by 1975 there was little evidence of it in Fellow Laborers.
Once a week we had a formal meeting that resembled a branch meeting.
Toward the end of my stay, it became one of the most dreaded times of the whole week for us because it meant we would have to endure a grueling night of belittling and ridicule.
I can somewhat understand how an outsider might think it would be easy to just "walk away".
But when you combine the importance of keeping a commitment with an uncertainty of what the world holds outside the "one true household", it's really not very easy at all.
I think for some of us, who were adults and had already seen our share of "toughening up" in the real world, it broke our spirits and sense of optimism
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Ron G.
((((((Excie))))))) I admire you...and your courage.
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WhiteDove
For the record : from The Way Corps A Lifetime of Christian Service
Physical training is a valuable part of The Way Corps training. Because the Christian believer is a three - part being,his life must be balanced spiritually, mentally, and in order for him to be at his best. Through participation in LEAD Outdoor Academy International, Way Corps students learn to develop mental, flexibility and physical stamina. Students build an attitude of "I can do ,therefore I do" and learn to live abundantly.
I'd say that qualifies as toughen up
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waysider
I find myself inclined to disagree with you on this assessment.
First
The original "toughen up" comment was made in direct response to me, regarding an incident I posted that happened in Fellow Laborers(not The Way Corps) in the mid 1970's
There was no LEAD program for fellow Laborers nor did the Corps program always include LEAD.
Second
I was incorrectly portrayed as a weakling who was playing the "victim" card.
I never said I felt like I, myself, was a victim, though I have stated that I did see others who were, what I would consider to be, victimized.
Third
The incident was rationalized as part of a *growing process* that I should have anticipated and that I was at fault for not doing that.
Nowhere in any agreement that Fellow Laborers made was there ever any indication we would be subjected to what amounted to abusive treatment, which tends to have more of a tendency to stifle growth than to promote it.
Fourth
Physical training is NOT synonymous with "toughening up".
The physical training we received in Fellow Laborers came in the form of calisthenics and jogging.
It was not a "toughening up" process.
Physical training is not even relevant to the particular incident.
------------------------------------------------------
The original toughening up statement had nothing to do with the level of physical training we should have expected.
If anything, people who knew me in Fellow Laborers probably thought I needed a little "softening up", not "toughening up".
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dmiller
Whenever I heard docvic talk about the way corps --
it was promoted as a learning "opportunity",
students *sitting at the feet of the teacher* kinda thing.
He never said one damn word about *toughening up*.
As usual --- Oldies has perspectives so snafu'd, it only reflects his skewed viewpoint.
And what-do-ya-know?!?!? Mike is paying attention to something VERBAL for a change!!?? :o
NOT passed on from the ph***tard pharmer's phamous written revvy-lashuns????
Someone call Ripley's "Believe It Or Not".
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Watered Garden
Waysider was no weakling; neither was I. We were doing the best we could. Toughen up? I thought God's people were to be tender and kindhearted. Who said we needed to toughen up? Someone who doesn't know beans from barium would be my guess.
WG
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WhiteDove
My response was limited to the remark that was quoted I have no information on your specific case.
The remark was Show me that in the promo literature or promo words about any of the programs! While the word toughening up". was not used specifically the concept to which was refered to was. It was not limited to Lead either.
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cman
In what way and what words, white dove?
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skyrider
Once Again............discussing any corps BROCHURES or PROMOS is ALL RELATIVE.
Each corps year was different.....different coordinators, different situations, different locations......etc. etc.
LEAD.....there was NO "LEAD" program in the early corps.....and, then TFI surfaced for a couple of years.
Discussing corps brochures is like............trying to shoot a scurrying rabbit.....that little feller zigs and zags, darting and stopping, even with a 20-guage shotgun it's not easy.
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WhiteDove
That may be..... but the challenge was to discuss them so I did
Be carefull what you ask for especially when you dion't know what you are talking about.
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socks
My first question, which is multi-faceted, is this:
How many, who participate here, went into their respective programs, whether it was WOW, Fellow Laborers, Way Corps or other, with any kind of advance notice that the programs were designed, in part, to "toughen you up"? What does the expression,"toughen you up" mean?
My wife and I expected the Way Corps to be challenging in assorted ways but based on what we knew of it from the first 3 Corpszes and what our goals were, the term "toughen up" would have meant along the lines of maturing and increasing our personal capabilities in Christian ministry. I don't remember it being used directly, maybe it was, if it was it and similar terms would have been looked at benevolently, not in a negative way.
Keep in mind - the "physical" training was basically bulls-it. Meaning there was some, but it was a work in progress at first, developed on the fly each year by each corps. The face of it was "running" in the mornings.
The "running" thing started when the 1st Corps did it, and it took on a life of it's own. They "ran" a few times a week, a distance known as "to the Stop sign and back" - down Weirwille Rd to think it was Shelby, due west, and then back. A little less than a mile. It was done as a group, go run, shower, start your day. That was hardly extreme physical training, and given you had guys like Del D. there, you know it was more of a hoot than a holler.
It took on a life of it's own and became a whole regimen. The corps group in size, blah blah blah. But it was based on bunch of guys and girls runnning down a road and back, to get some exercise.
Some people like me actually came to enjoy the running. I did a lof it and developed a personal training program for myself. I really enjoyed mid to long distance running for a few years, 3 miles and up. It was an interesting thing for me to do personally, mild by some standards, but I never expected anyone else to do what I was doing. "Running" in the morning became a cup o' coffee more or less, even when we started going longer distances. (which wasted a lot of the program's time having the whole group do it, IMO).
I don't know how I'd evaulate the "mental" aspect of it. I never really "toughened up" in that area I think, for better or worse.
Question #2:
Do you think of yourself as a "weakling getting victimized"?
(Either then or currently?)
No.
Question #3:
Although I'm sure, that, at the time, we must have seen it as a "challenge to do bigger and better things", does that challenge include sweeping these things under the rug and pretending they were insignificant?
I'm not sure what "these things" means. Some stories are better left untold, IMO. Personal matters are personal and there are areas where I don't feel free to discuss certain things directly because I don't want to do harm to others or myself, for that matter. Anything addressed to me directly I would try to answer in that light. I don't take liberties where I feel it would hurt someone today, all these years later. We're talking things 30 years old or more, in some cases. That's a lot of water under the bridge.
Still, I do post things here that aren't entirely positive at times about events and people past. I know there are larger issues being discussed here. I try to honor the memory and intentions of the day, as much as possible. Other than that, not saying something doesn't mean it's been swept away, it can also mean it's not appropriate for the time or place. IMO.
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cman
You are not saying anything whitedove.
It's you who don't know what is being talked about.
Or a deliberate attempt to derail the thread.
Why do we need to be 'careful'?
And exactly what do you mean by that statement?
In what way are we to be careful?
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skyrider
Be careful......you might *be reading posts on corps issues* (or otherwise)......from SOMEONE who never went corps and has NO IDEA what he's talking about.
<_<
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skyrider
socks.......I'll take a shot at answering your multi-faceted question.
Disclaimer: I do not have the time nor inkling to qualify the multi-varied processes of "this corps preparation and training" from some 30 years ago. But to say just a few things.....here goes...
For me, I came from an athletic background.....football, basketball, track & field. The "physical training" was no big deal......but I did have empathy for some who were overweight, or physically handicapped, etc. To me, I viewed the whole corps "training" like a TEAM sport. We're all on ONE TEAM. Nothing more, nothing less.
IMO, when some talk about the "toughening up"......I tend to view that more in the MENTAL/PSYCHO-EMOTIONAL areas....but perhaps, that's just me. I never expected the YELL-FESTS, THE VERBAL ABUSE, THE VERBAL LASHINGS THAT WOUNDED AND SCARRED.........to me, the corps "training" was really A WIERWILLE-INDOCTRINATION.
IMO, the whole thrust and impetus of wierwille's corps "training" was contorted......it totally missed the mark of imparting Christian wholeness and leadership to those involved. Just to name a few.......conspiracy theories, MAL-PACK meetings, fear tactics, secret agendas, select favortism, sexual abuse agendas, public humiliation, scorning, etc. etc.......in hindsight, I know that I stayed because of my athletic upbringing and not wanting to be a quitter.
WHAT YOU LOOK AT.....YOU BECOME.
It's no wonder, to me, that many corps graduates became hard-hearted leaders on the field. Or, they would mimic wierwille's mannerisms, his teaching style, get a German shorthair dog, etc........some idolized the man. Obviously, some still do.
On so many levels, the "toughened attitude" was REALLY.........a hard-heartedness. Even today, there are still posters who come to the GS boards and criticize corps grads....when, in truth, they just don't trace that criticism back to its source. "Nazi corps training.......yields nazi-corps." Not all, but alot.
Anyways......I gotta run, but wanted to post a few thoughts.
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excathedra
what the hell
i did great on LEAD
ppppffffftttttttt
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socks
Thanks Sky. The questions are waysider's, repeated in Bold, with my answers underneath each.
Exposure to VPW was one of my primary goals, going "in". Way Productions was the other. I got both, as expected.
I think you're right about the root cause and source of the misdirected training program. On GS I read posts that lay the blame on Way Corps - the evil Way Corps, bad "students" who didn't follow the direction of their teacher and his example who, if they had, would have done fine.
Completely ignores the facts. And those who were exposed to him and his program directly can speak for themselves of course and should. But when I look back at the 1st Way Corps, they were all pretty much extremely nice, kind and approachable people in those first years. Very warm, working to gain some experience and wisdom. As the next few years progressed, each group came "in" and by and large the same kind of attitudes were prevalent. There were weaknesses and strengths as you'd expect in people so young - early 20's most. These were formative years.
Not everyone formed "perfectly" by any means, but by and large I think looking back I can see all the various personality types in those first few years of the Way Corps. Some were more aggressive than others, some wanted a simple lifestyle and approach to Christian ministry, others wanted a more structured and controlled environment. None of that is wrong inherently, most of the interests could have contributed to a very diverse and effective "Way Ministry". And there were some problems along the way too. But overall, nothing all that extraordinary.
VPW's influence was major. Primary. He was "the man", the Teacher of PFAL, the draw. Two things informed the Way Nash environment that he brought to it that made it extremely difficult to work together - anger, and conflict.
He had a temper and it blew full force often. That produced fear in people - if VPW got tanked up on something and blew a gasket, people got fired, reamed, humilated, scorched. You had to really "toughen up" if you wanted to work with him at those times. Otherwise you either tried to avoid him or wait it out.
Young people are heavily affected by that. It produces all kinds of negative toxic stuff - fear, resentment, misunderstanding. Avoidance - biggie. Avoid whatever makes VPW p.o.'d and he's happy. That leaves a lot out of the mix in the relationship, it tips one-sided, things that need to be addressed aren't or if they are it's extremely difficult. It's easy to postulate "that was the price to be paid" but that's wrong IMO - that isn't a price worthy of charging.
It's not idle speculation to consider - why should anyone have to belch through that kind of stuff? It just shoots whatever you're trying to do in the foot finding that every month or so something's going to blow that gasket and instead of working through it intelligently and lovingly people are going to have to weather this s-it storm. How can you move ahead knowing that at any moment what you're doing will be deemed "completely screwed up" and straight from the devil himself and end up being micro-managed to the point it's lifeless?
It also offers a view to the heart of the man - something's keeping that anger stoked. The resentment of past experience, conflicting interests (ministry, theology, business, profits)...personal situations, inabliity to accept criticism and differing ideas. Resistance to change. Could be some, all, others.
Conflict - I feel now looking back that VPW tried to mix his interests of Christian ministry, business and entertaiment and succeed in all of them through the Way Ministry. The Way became a religious business for practical purposes, selling PFAL as a way to produce profit streams and build a "profitable" self-sustaining ministry. I've posted this before, it's not a unique perspective.
For a man who said he had God's instruction on the bible in a way not known for 2000 years, that is a dangerous combination. The system of marketing that teaching through PFAL produced an unsolvable conflict IMO - A. people need what PFAL teaches and can't be true Christians as God wants without it. B. You can't have it unless you pay for it.
There's no way that deal will work in the long run, it opens the door up for all kinds of problems. Lots of people think it's doable - but time and again those who try to do it run into the same kinds of problems any profit-based non-religious financial endeavor does and tanks because unlike a normal business, religious endeavors like the Way Ministry fly under their own Country's Flag, with self styled systems of accountablity. "God" is the accounter - and in ministry's like the Way He tends to agree with every hair brained plan laid and when they go awry it's everyone else's fault but their own so there's no learning, no progress, just more of the same.
So for me the idea of "toughening" up in order to have a functioning relationship with VPW was useless. It was what it was. I did learn some good and useful things from my time around and working with him. I also learned I'd never work with young people that way, so it did help me immensely in raising my kids and many other situations.
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waysider
This is the incident that I cited on "losing The Way".
(It was in response to a poster who scoffed at the notion that mind control was part of Kristen's experience.)
I started this thread to avoid derailing the other.
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One time(and there were many) we were rousted out of bed in the middle of the night, ordered to drive to limb HQ within a time frame that was physically impossible to meet, and ordered to sit in total silence and darkness for what seemed to be an eternity.
When the meeting started, we were castigated for tardiness and told that we, the Fellow Laborers , were the reason that the ultimate goal of Word Over The World was in jeopardy.
You see, it was told to us that our performance was a total disgrace to "God and His Word" and since we were in the "birthplace" of the ministry, we were dragging the whole ministry down"spiritually".
We had no idea what we could have possibly done.
There was no question and answer session.
We were forbidden to discuss it.
We were forbidden to speak during the meeting
The program was to be terminated when the sun came up.
The next morning, we all met one last time at our 5 am meeting and were informed that we were being given one more chance but we would have to follow orders to a tee without question or else.
Are you seriously telling me that you don't see elements of mind control in that incident?
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excathedra
exactly
long and short
he was a dysfunctionally screwed up man
and we were his children
damn it
if i told you how many times i was threatened with it being my last chance
or many other people's last chance
ohmygod i can't even talk about this
this is ridiculous
what are we doing ? trying to say why veepee or the way were godly or had our best interests in mind ?
give me a break
sorry
i feel anger at the moment
toughen us up ?
beat me when i'm almost dead
that'll toughen me up
yeah right
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waysider
This is the response that was given to my citing of that incident.
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No I don't view it that way. I view it as all part of the program to toughen you guys up. Instead of looking at it like a weakling getting victimized, take it as a challenge to do bigger and better things. That was the attitude of mine in the corps despite all the wacky stuff we did there too
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The topic being discussed, even though it was a diversion from the "Losing The Way" thread, was mind control, not physical fitness.
The poster who responded to me was engaging in a denial that Kristen's references to mind control were valid.
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Then, someone changed the subject( whether intentional or not, I don't know) to put the focus on LEAD and physical fitness.
So, even though there were physical elements present in the programs, that is not the focal point of this thread.
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excathedra
deleted by excathedra just in the nick of time
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waysider
I just wanted to add that I think Socks hit the nail on the head(and then some) in his most recent post.
You too, excie-----Mwah!(Did I do that right?)
Thanks, everyone for your responses.
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skyrider
socks.......from where I sit today, it is near to impossible to transcend back in time some 32 years ago when I decided to go into the corps.......BUT.....I also remind myself that wierwille was near 59 years old and the "leverage" he held over us young bucks.
Heck, wierwille BACK THEN.......was STILL OLDER than I am today, by many years. :blink:
Why did wierwille want to pattern the corps after the marine corps??.....why didn't he pattern his "you are the best" program after "jesus with his disciples?"........or, an "oral roberts university with more truth?"
IMO, wierwille patterned his corps program to instill discipline, fear and twi-mandated servitude. As the old cliche goes....."it was his way or the highway"......and the zero corps stood as a testimony to this. And, with youth...... instilling discipline (insert - "toughen up") is a building block that cannot be bypassed.
Another thing......quality versus quantity. I personally think that wierwille, nearing 60 years old, had QUANTITY (...and $$$$$...) ahead of QUALITY......his productive years were quickly slipping by and there was just too many irons in the fire......during those 1976-1982 years. Lots of things, for sure......but with the corps program, way productions, publications, campus locations, cult-accusations, word in culture, girls-in-the-motorcoach, etc.......the juggling of "doing things well" got very sloppy, irritable, and mean-spirited.
That's why........it's near IMPOSSIBLE to discuss "the corps experience".......socks, your experience was TOTALLY different than mine......and mine was TOTALLY different than a 17th corps person......etc. etc. Promos changed, brochures changed, the training-impetus changed, new locations added, bull-riding school, hitch-hiking guidelines changed, corps hook-ups on the field became mandatory,.......more hoops, more hoops.
And, imo..........from my 24 years twi-experience........1994-1997 was the worst. Still, martindale DEMANDED those corps phone hook-ups and the VERBAL THRASHINGS EVERY WEEK were excruciating. So many good people trashed over the ridiculous, insignificant things. Martindale had learned well from his teacher. Even then, after some 16 years as a corps grad......the "toughen up" spiel was blugeoning the corps weekly.
Thank God.............I left, finally.
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waysider
Great post, Sky
Sorry to cut so much of your post out but I only wanted to comment on this one item, regarding "Jesus with his disciples".
I think for some of us, the possibility of "studying at the master's feet" ("Jesus with his disciples") was a big draw.
Of course, in Fellow Laborers, we didn't have VPW but the concept was the same.
Both programs were heavily promoted as being patterned after this format.
Based on a thread that appeared here a while back, I think there must have been some of that very early on, but by 1975 there was little evidence of it in Fellow Laborers.
Once a week we had a formal meeting that resembled a branch meeting.
Toward the end of my stay, it became one of the most dreaded times of the whole week for us because it meant we would have to endure a grueling night of belittling and ridicule.
I can somewhat understand how an outsider might think it would be easy to just "walk away".
But when you combine the importance of keeping a commitment with an uncertainty of what the world holds outside the "one true household", it's really not very easy at all.
I think for some of us, who were adults and had already seen our share of "toughening up" in the real world, it broke our spirits and sense of optimism
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cman
What really was our commitment?
What was it that was our love?
Back in the simpleness of finding some light.
Not from the books, classes and programs.
But in our own hearts.
Did it surprise us?
Is this our first love?
And not so much 'the way',
but our first intro to making some sense out of a few things.
While twi was on it's own kicks.
Didn't we look for righteousness?
For those wonderful promises on our own?
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cman
Isn't it this love and freedom in Christ what they tried to kill and toughen us against?
And using this very thing to draw us in to hatred?
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