I view it as all part of the program to toughen you guys up
Partial quote, but the whole thing is just above..
Why is it supposedly good, for the OTHER guy? You know.. the guy going through it?
I'll say this.. when they REALLY started putting a lot of the same kind of screws to people out in the twigs, branches.. a lot of them couldn't handle it.
As far as question one:
I think when they supposedly ran these little programs to "toughen people up", they didn't really end up with tough people, more like people with hard hearts. Hard people.
And crushed people. How many times did people sit in corps night, in stupid meetings, and watch while the mogster in charge utterly crushed an individual?
Where this is supposed to fit in the category of "Christian character" is beyond my comprehension..
makes me think of the new corpsie most unexcellent adventure.. what are they gonna end up with?
As far as #2: I think I was an intelligent, vulnerable person who got conned out of what I really should have been doing in life.
I guess what I am getting at in question #1 is that, the program in which I personally participated, Fellow Laborers, was never represented as a program that would "toughen us up"
It was represented as an opportunity to do an in depth study of The Book Of Acts, both scholastically and in practical application so that we could go back to our home towns as more effective leaders. I really don't think anyone came into the program with a preconceived notion or agreement to subject themselves to "toughening up". If that was the idea behind the program, it was grossly misrepresented.
But then again, what does "toughen you up" mean?
Does it mean being able to run a faster mile or endure more sleep deprivation or sessions of belittlement or learning to live with less than adequate employment or what?
As for question #2:
I don't think I ever exhibited "weakling" behavior during my time in the program.
Likewise, I don't think of myself as some sort of "victim", though I did personally witness what I would consider victimization of some of my FL brothers and sisters.
As for question #3:
If these things really happened, and I can assure they did, why should I rationalize their effects on people other than myself or make excuses for the abusive behavior I witnessed.
It seems like minimizing these events or belittling those who were at their brunt is somewhat of a slap in the face even if it's not my face being slapped.
How many, who participate here, went into their respective programs, whether it was WOW, Fellow Laborers, Way Corps or other, with any kind of advance notice that the programs were designed, in part, to "toughen you up"?
What does the expression,"toughen you up" mean?
In order to avoid spreading myself thin I only want to post one thing here and move on. Any comments to me can be made in PMs or in the "A note on forgiving thread." Thanks
One of the reasons I did NOT go into the Corps was because I didn't think I was ready to be toughened up. I saw VERY CLEARLY that the Corps program was advertised as being just that, like boot camp, and I avoided it because this was so clearly made known.
I'm talking about 1975 to 1985. After that was everything was different, and by 1987 I was going gone.
The advertising I'm talking about was largely verbal.
Show me that in the promo literature or promo words about any of the programs!
Some of us were pretty tough (ie, resilient, had learned a bit about life, knew how to take a few knocks) before we went in. Some of us knew how to speak for ourselves, deal with things. Some of us had successful professional careers. Successful!
You know what? Because I had achieved something of significance - it was squashed time and again. Had genuine academic ability, had genuinely helped people in the world, had genuine profesional qualifications. (Had? I mean, have.) Never mind that my heart for God had led me to that choice of career - if ever I said anything it was, "You're leaning on your 5 senses." Even just making a sensible comment - using my God-given brains - brought this response.
Corps wasn't about toughening anybody up. At least from the 90s on, it was about crushing us into a one-size-fits-all robot, capable of reciting the party line (I can't speak for WC training before then). If anyone thought anything other than what the MoG or CC thought, it was considered you had missed on the bit about acquiring in-depth spiritual perception and understanding.
Get real! What about the two-by-two thing? Pretty much everyone in any program knew how to cross a road, go to the shop, do things, without their own Political Officer watching every move.
Anyway - in which of the gospels does it say: "Toughen up"? I thought they were all about being loving? And the epistles tell us to be "kind and tender-hearted."
Anyway - in which of the gospels does it say: "Toughen up"? I thought they were all about being loving? And the epistles tell us to be "kind and tender-hearted."
One of the reasons I did NOT go into the Corps was because I didn't think I was ready to be toughened up. I saw VERY CLEARLY that the Corps program was advertised as being just that, like boot camp, and I avoided it because this was so clearly made known.
I'm talking about 1975 to 1985. After that was everything was different, and by 1987 I was going gone.
Of course.....you did NOT go into the corps.
Of course.....you were NOT ready to "be toughened up."
Of course.....you saw wierwille's corps program VERY CLEARLY as advertised.
Of course.....you avoided it BECAUSE this was so clearly made known.
Of course.....you're talking about 1975 to 1985......wierwille died May 20, 1985.
I'm left to wonder WHY it took you two more years to figure out that your "music died" when wierwille drew his last breath on earth.?
NO I didn`t know that the programs were to toughen us up :(
I went wow because I was told THAT was how to best serve God...how to be on the front lines spiritually...how to grow ten years spiritually in one...
I applied to go into the corpes because I was told that NOT to was to be a *bump on the log spiritually*
So in answere to # 1 ...I`d have to say no, I had no idea what I was committing myself to, nor the fact that in applying, I was making an irrevvocable, unbreakable vow I was making to God.
In answere to #2...I` don`t believe that I was weak...I think I was decieved into allowing myself to be treated the way I was, believing that God required my submition and obediance to these men.
In answere to question #3 no doubt that is exactly what they thought we should do....*lock box*...silence, *lest the ministry be blamed* etc...I believe that it is ou moral, spiritual civic responsibility to expose ALL of the dirt that has been swept under the carpet. To do anything less is to allow evil to run unchecked.
One of the reasons I did NOT go into the Corps was because I didn't think I was ready to be toughened up. I saw VERY CLEARLY that the Corps program was advertised as being just that, like boot camp, and I avoided it because this was so clearly made known.
I'm talking about 1975 to 1985. After that was everything was different, and by 1987 I was going gone.
The advertising I'm talking about was largely verbal.
With all the brochures and recommendations that anyone who COULD, SHOULD
1) take the Advanced class
2) go wow
3) go corps
Most ESPECIALLY "go corps",
why was there ONE set of truths (the brochures)
and ANOTHER set of truths (hearsay).
What kind of program documents ONE thing, and relies on THE RUMOR MILL to get the REAL story
out to applicants? Is this how HONEST programs are run?
NO I didn`t know that the programs were to toughen us up :(
I went wow because I was told THAT was how to best serve God...how to be on the front lines spiritually...how to grow ten years spiritually in one...
...
(re Corps program) I had no idea what I was committing myself to, nor the fact that in applying, I was making an irrevocable, unbreakable vow I was making to God.
In answere to #2...I don`t believe that I was weak...I think I was decieved into allowing myself to be treated the way I was, believing that God required my submition and obediance to these men.
Too right sistah! I went Corps because I saw some wonderfully humble and helpful people, out and out committed, really striving to help. They had quality in their lives. Nobody, when I was considering Corps, told me it was to "toughen me up." They said it was difficult or hard work, but you expect that of any training course (my degree and subsequent professional training were all VERY hard work).
It was once you got in that you were told it was "boot camp" for the first semester. And that you'd signed up for life (I thought - how foolish - that it was to train people and return them to their localities, to offer a greater depth of Word and be a twig coordinator there.)
In my Corps, we were told we were so (...what? weak spiritually, was it?) that boot camp was extended to next semester. Then it was RoA set up (hard work but often fun). Same next year. Perpetual boot camp.
Now the boot's on the other foot.
Those boots are made for walking
And that's just what they'll do
One of these days these boots are gonna walk right over you.
Funny thing about the *boot camp* reference. The guy that made it inadvertantly proved our point. Not being military, I don`t believe that they understand that boot camp is not just about toughening up.
Anybody who has had military experience (no I haven`t ..but this is what my father and brother have told me) understands why boot camp is so intense...and mind you it only last a couple of months...not a life time...why they do the things the way they do.
As I understand it ...the recruits are worked into the ground, they are subjected to sleep deprivation, intense physical exercise, nearly constant haranguing. They are never right, they are always kept off balance runs and drills at any hour...they are physically exhausted, ...etc.
The goal is to completely tear each of them as an individual down...to eliminate their personal identity...after they have been brought as low as possible...the building up process begins...they are then encouraged, pushed to succede...become one, a unit...they feel united, strong, their mutual suffering, the intensity of the things experienced bonds them together as a family so to speak...they no longer think as individuals but trheir identity becomes that of the group...they have a whole new identity and thought process when the event is completed.
Seems to me that in twi...the tearing down process never stopped, that instead of the tearing down and building up in a few weeks...it was 4 years of harshness...
It seems to me that coprs was a matter of survival.
Boot camp was not about building physical toughness :(
I was a wow in Bossier City, LA... The lc at the time was St3v3 B@tt3r@ck... When somebody was down, he was there to kick you. All I could do (at the time) was just think to myself , "what an @$$ h0le!". IMO his visits were useless. I was out of work in the middle of the year and it was taking longer for me to find a job than what the lc thought it should take... He talked to me and I just looked at him with the look of "you have no idea what your talking about", which p1ss3d him off, however he was smart enough to realize that I was bigger and stronger than he was and thought I might "kick his @$$" (which I should have done <_< ).
The missnomier that was commonly used was "tough love", the big problem is that all they wanted to do/be was tough, there was no love to be found...
I went into FLO because I wanted to learn to serve and love God better, learn more about the Bible, and grow in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
I was a pretty sassy little thing when I got there. My first house coordinator made it her business to "break me" whatever she meant by that. The second year definitely broke my heart.
Mr. Garden and I went into FWC for much the same reasons, also thinking it would help our son to live in a more structured environment than two working parents could maybe provide.
It broke all our hearts. You talk about toughening up? I beat that kid with every wooden spoon I owned, broke most of them on his hard little behind. It hardened his heart to be absolutely determined to do anything he could to get out of there. Why you ask? I was FORCED TO that's why. Children were to listen attentively, remember accurately and obey without question the first time every time. There was no margin for individuality. There was NO SUCH thing as ADHD. Only the rod of correction to drive out the devil spirits and force the child to submit. I never ate a meal there with children present where at least one child did not get dragged out and beaten severely. Sometimes they were taken outside so their screams would not disrupt the meal too much. Frequently, the poor kid just needed a break or a nap. Only children below kindergarten level were allowed to nap. My grandson is now 5 and he needs a nap sometimes.
If you dared to want your child's individual needs given some individual attention, you were ruthlessly squashed. Your children were basically taken away from you and raised by strangers who IMO DID NOT LOVE THEM or care anything about them other than to force them into the mold of a silent wraith, walking the halls quietly in his place in the line, never daring to touch the stair rail or the wall for fear of being smitten with the ever present spoon. Some of these kids were tiny. One mother weaned her 13 month old son and put shoes on his feet the day she arrived - BOOM - no warning, just no comforting mother's breast, a stranger who could not nurse him and didn't understand the pain in his feet as well as his heart made him cry.
#2. Did I see myself as a "victim getting victimized?"
NO NO NO! I saw myself as a sinner who was not worthy of the privilege of serving with God's finest men and women - those who ran these programs. I saw myself as being weighed in the balance and found wanting. I saw myself as needing to become a better wife, mother, and woman of God. I saw myself as someone in danger of losing her salvation, of being a total failure, if I did not measure up to standards of FWC and especially if I could not get my son to measure up.
#3, Sweep under the rug what we went through? The wrong teachings? The evil doctrines that were inculcated into our innocent seeking hearts and minds, who wanted only to serve and love God and instead were trained up to serve a self-serving counterfeit?
Nope. I'll be more than happy to discuss FLO, FWC, the errors and the results as long anyone wants to read or listen.
WG
AND ONE MORE THING....
If any of you innies who have kids read this: This is not the right way nor the normal way to raise your children. They are more likely to become the loving, God-respecting, happy kids who obey their parents in the Lord if you raise them according to common sense and real genuine love and kindness and let them participate in school activities and play sports and stuff than if you are always beating on them and telling them to 'LISTEN REMEMBER OBEY'.
Don't listen to your leadership about raising your children. Listen to your heart. Or take them to court and terminate your parental rights and let them be adopted by someone who loves them, so you can "serve the ministry that taught you the word and put God first instead of your kids."
Yep. That was suggested to me in a different situation.
How many, who participate here, went into their respective programs, whether it was WOW, Fellow Laborers, Way Corps or other, with any kind of advance notice that the programs were designed, in part, to "toughen you up"?
What does the expression,"toughen you up" mean?
Question #2:
Do you think of yourself as a "weakling getting victimized"?
(Either then or currently?)
Question #3:
Although I'm sure, that, at the time, we must have seen it as a "challenge to do bigger and better things", does that challenge include sweeping these things under the rug and pretending they were insignificant?
Because I had lived on campus at Emporia for a year in the college program, I had a fairly good idea of what the way corps was going to be like. Back then I knew they intended to put us in situations where we pushed ourselves farther than we had done before, broke through our barriers of fear, moved out of our comfort zone, and "had" to rely on God rather than ourselves. That is how I would have defined "toughen us up" back then. I've never had a problem with that aspect of the program. I feel that we who signed up usually had a pretty good idea of what was going to be asked of us WITHIN THE PROGRAM. If you didn't know going in, you learned pretty quick, to expect anything in the name of training.
But it isn't within the program specifics that my feelings of victimization come from... it is from the whole over-arching system and mindset of twi... the teaching that if you questioned something you were either spiritually deficient or just plain evil, or that if you left the group you were walking out from under God's umbrella of protection, or that you received God's blessing by obeying your leadership/husband even when they were wrong (that God would deal with the fact they were wrong, that wasn't your job)...
Did these concepts hold people in place? yes
Did they keep folks from leaving as soon as they might have? yes
Did they build fear and condemnation in people's lives? oh yeah
Did they steal time, prosperity, opportunity, and even health from folks? you bet!
That's how I feel vicitimized. Not by the specific programs, but by the whole mindset. That pervasive, insidious, incrementally evil mindset.
In a normal family, one would not ordinarily subject their offspring to hours of screaming, acts of incest, demands that they perform activities that hold the possibility of losing fingers and toes, harsh criticism if they get sick, express supreme dissapointment if they fail to willingly offer you fifteen percent of their income, make threats that if they can't muster up a eight hour workday and manage to stay awake as you ramble on incoherently for another four or five hours, that you'll send them outside to fend for themselves.
in a normal family that is..
"just getting you ready for the world, kiddo.."
The world is a heck of a lot better place, for most people..
IFrequently, the poor kid just needed a break or a nap. Only children below kindergarten level were allowed to nap. My grandson is now 5 and he needs a nap sometimes.
I'm 46 and just woke up from a nap! Just like kids, I'm cranky when I'm overtired and pretty sweet when I've had enough rest.
If any of you innies who have kids read this: This is not the right way nor the normal way to raise your children. They are more likely to become the loving, God-respecting, happy kids who obey their parents in the Lord if you raise them according to common sense and real genuine love and kindness and let them participate in school activities and play sports and stuff than if you are always beating on them and telling them to 'LISTEN REMEMBER OBEY'.
Don't listen to your leadership about raising your children. Listen to your heart. Or take them to court and terminate your parental rights and let them be adopted by someone who loves them, so you can "serve the ministry that taught you the word and put God first instead of your kids." WG
Wise words, WG. The counsel I received from TWI on childraising was tantamount to child abuse. I left once my first child was 6 months old, which is when they said I sould have started hitting her with that dreaded wooden spoon. I chose to raise my children with kindness and patience coupled with firmness laced with heavy doses of humor, and all 4 of them have turned out just fine. They're also good parents now themselves.
Oops! The line starting with "I'm 46 and I just woke up from a nap..." is mine. Apparently I did something wrong and it looks like its part of the quote I used from WG's previous post... I'll get better at this (or maybe I won't, technology is not my strong suite!).
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Ham
Partial quote, but the whole thing is just above..
Why is it supposedly good, for the OTHER guy? You know.. the guy going through it?
I'll say this.. when they REALLY started putting a lot of the same kind of screws to people out in the twigs, branches.. a lot of them couldn't handle it.
As far as question one:
I think when they supposedly ran these little programs to "toughen people up", they didn't really end up with tough people, more like people with hard hearts. Hard people.
And crushed people. How many times did people sit in corps night, in stupid meetings, and watch while the mogster in charge utterly crushed an individual?
Where this is supposed to fit in the category of "Christian character" is beyond my comprehension..
makes me think of the new corpsie most unexcellent adventure.. what are they gonna end up with?
As far as #2: I think I was an intelligent, vulnerable person who got conned out of what I really should have been doing in life.
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waysider
Thanks, Ham
I guess what I am getting at in question #1 is that, the program in which I personally participated, Fellow Laborers, was never represented as a program that would "toughen us up"
It was represented as an opportunity to do an in depth study of The Book Of Acts, both scholastically and in practical application so that we could go back to our home towns as more effective leaders. I really don't think anyone came into the program with a preconceived notion or agreement to subject themselves to "toughening up". If that was the idea behind the program, it was grossly misrepresented.
But then again, what does "toughen you up" mean?
Does it mean being able to run a faster mile or endure more sleep deprivation or sessions of belittlement or learning to live with less than adequate employment or what?
As for question #2:
I don't think I ever exhibited "weakling" behavior during my time in the program.
Likewise, I don't think of myself as some sort of "victim", though I did personally witness what I would consider victimization of some of my FL brothers and sisters.
As for question #3:
If these things really happened, and I can assure they did, why should I rationalize their effects on people other than myself or make excuses for the abusive behavior I witnessed.
It seems like minimizing these events or belittling those who were at their brunt is somewhat of a slap in the face even if it's not my face being slapped.
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waysider
Another thing I find myself wondering-----------
How did a guy who wasn't even there become such an expert on what happened?
Kinda reminds me of the old Henny Youngman gag.
"I saw a man fall out of a third story window today. I ran over to him. 'What happened?', I asked.
'I don't know', said the man, 'I just got here myself.' "
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Ham
Makes one wonder, doesn't it?
:)
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Mike
In order to avoid spreading myself thin I only want to post one thing here and move on. Any comments to me can be made in PMs or in the "A note on forgiving thread." Thanks
One of the reasons I did NOT go into the Corps was because I didn't think I was ready to be toughened up. I saw VERY CLEARLY that the Corps program was advertised as being just that, like boot camp, and I avoided it because this was so clearly made known.
I'm talking about 1975 to 1985. After that was everything was different, and by 1987 I was going gone.
The advertising I'm talking about was largely verbal.
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Twinky
"Toughen up" ?????????
Show me that in the promo literature or promo words about any of the programs!
Some of us were pretty tough (ie, resilient, had learned a bit about life, knew how to take a few knocks) before we went in. Some of us knew how to speak for ourselves, deal with things. Some of us had successful professional careers. Successful!
You know what? Because I had achieved something of significance - it was squashed time and again. Had genuine academic ability, had genuinely helped people in the world, had genuine profesional qualifications. (Had? I mean, have.) Never mind that my heart for God had led me to that choice of career - if ever I said anything it was, "You're leaning on your 5 senses." Even just making a sensible comment - using my God-given brains - brought this response.
Corps wasn't about toughening anybody up. At least from the 90s on, it was about crushing us into a one-size-fits-all robot, capable of reciting the party line (I can't speak for WC training before then). If anyone thought anything other than what the MoG or CC thought, it was considered you had missed on the bit about acquiring in-depth spiritual perception and understanding.
Get real! What about the two-by-two thing? Pretty much everyone in any program knew how to cross a road, go to the shop, do things, without their own Political Officer watching every move.
Anyway - in which of the gospels does it say: "Toughen up"? I thought they were all about being loving? And the epistles tell us to be "kind and tender-hearted."
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waysider
Thanks, Twinky
Excellent points.
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skyrider
Of course.....you did NOT go into the corps.
Of course.....you were NOT ready to "be toughened up."
Of course.....you saw wierwille's corps program VERY CLEARLY as advertised.
Of course.....you avoided it BECAUSE this was so clearly made known.
Of course.....you're talking about 1975 to 1985......wierwille died May 20, 1985.
I'm left to wonder WHY it took you two more years to figure out that your "music died" when wierwille drew his last breath on earth.?
<_<
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rascal
NO I didn`t know that the programs were to toughen us up :(
I went wow because I was told THAT was how to best serve God...how to be on the front lines spiritually...how to grow ten years spiritually in one...
I applied to go into the corpes because I was told that NOT to was to be a *bump on the log spiritually*
So in answere to # 1 ...I`d have to say no, I had no idea what I was committing myself to, nor the fact that in applying, I was making an irrevvocable, unbreakable vow I was making to God.
In answere to #2...I` don`t believe that I was weak...I think I was decieved into allowing myself to be treated the way I was, believing that God required my submition and obediance to these men.
In answere to question #3 no doubt that is exactly what they thought we should do....*lock box*...silence, *lest the ministry be blamed* etc...I believe that it is ou moral, spiritual civic responsibility to expose ALL of the dirt that has been swept under the carpet. To do anything less is to allow evil to run unchecked.
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WordWolf
With all the brochures and recommendations that anyone who COULD, SHOULD
1) take the Advanced class
2) go wow
3) go corps
Most ESPECIALLY "go corps",
why was there ONE set of truths (the brochures)
and ANOTHER set of truths (hearsay).
What kind of program documents ONE thing, and relies on THE RUMOR MILL to get the REAL story
out to applicants? Is this how HONEST programs are run?
Is this INTEGRITY?
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Twinky
Too right sistah! I went Corps because I saw some wonderfully humble and helpful people, out and out committed, really striving to help. They had quality in their lives. Nobody, when I was considering Corps, told me it was to "toughen me up." They said it was difficult or hard work, but you expect that of any training course (my degree and subsequent professional training were all VERY hard work).
It was once you got in that you were told it was "boot camp" for the first semester. And that you'd signed up for life (I thought - how foolish - that it was to train people and return them to their localities, to offer a greater depth of Word and be a twig coordinator there.)
In my Corps, we were told we were so (...what? weak spiritually, was it?) that boot camp was extended to next semester. Then it was RoA set up (hard work but often fun). Same next year. Perpetual boot camp.
Now the boot's on the other foot.
Those boots are made for walking
And that's just what they'll do
One of these days these boots are gonna walk right over you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OU7Nezg7Ls
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rascal
Funny thing about the *boot camp* reference. The guy that made it inadvertantly proved our point. Not being military, I don`t believe that they understand that boot camp is not just about toughening up.
Anybody who has had military experience (no I haven`t ..but this is what my father and brother have told me) understands why boot camp is so intense...and mind you it only last a couple of months...not a life time...why they do the things the way they do.
As I understand it ...the recruits are worked into the ground, they are subjected to sleep deprivation, intense physical exercise, nearly constant haranguing. They are never right, they are always kept off balance runs and drills at any hour...they are physically exhausted, ...etc.
The goal is to completely tear each of them as an individual down...to eliminate their personal identity...after they have been brought as low as possible...the building up process begins...they are then encouraged, pushed to succede...become one, a unit...they feel united, strong, their mutual suffering, the intensity of the things experienced bonds them together as a family so to speak...they no longer think as individuals but trheir identity becomes that of the group...they have a whole new identity and thought process when the event is completed.
Seems to me that in twi...the tearing down process never stopped, that instead of the tearing down and building up in a few weeks...it was 4 years of harshness...
It seems to me that coprs was a matter of survival.
Boot camp was not about building physical toughness :(
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Zshot
I was a wow in Bossier City, LA... The lc at the time was St3v3 B@tt3r@ck... When somebody was down, he was there to kick you. All I could do (at the time) was just think to myself , "what an @$$ h0le!". IMO his visits were useless. I was out of work in the middle of the year and it was taking longer for me to find a job than what the lc thought it should take... He talked to me and I just looked at him with the look of "you have no idea what your talking about", which p1ss3d him off, however he was smart enough to realize that I was bigger and stronger than he was and thought I might "kick his @$$" (which I should have done <_< ).
The missnomier that was commonly used was "tough love", the big problem is that all they wanted to do/be was tough, there was no love to be found...
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Watered Garden
I went into FLO because I wanted to learn to serve and love God better, learn more about the Bible, and grow in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
I was a pretty sassy little thing when I got there. My first house coordinator made it her business to "break me" whatever she meant by that. The second year definitely broke my heart.
Mr. Garden and I went into FWC for much the same reasons, also thinking it would help our son to live in a more structured environment than two working parents could maybe provide.
It broke all our hearts. You talk about toughening up? I beat that kid with every wooden spoon I owned, broke most of them on his hard little behind. It hardened his heart to be absolutely determined to do anything he could to get out of there. Why you ask? I was FORCED TO that's why. Children were to listen attentively, remember accurately and obey without question the first time every time. There was no margin for individuality. There was NO SUCH thing as ADHD. Only the rod of correction to drive out the devil spirits and force the child to submit. I never ate a meal there with children present where at least one child did not get dragged out and beaten severely. Sometimes they were taken outside so their screams would not disrupt the meal too much. Frequently, the poor kid just needed a break or a nap. Only children below kindergarten level were allowed to nap. My grandson is now 5 and he needs a nap sometimes.
If you dared to want your child's individual needs given some individual attention, you were ruthlessly squashed. Your children were basically taken away from you and raised by strangers who IMO DID NOT LOVE THEM or care anything about them other than to force them into the mold of a silent wraith, walking the halls quietly in his place in the line, never daring to touch the stair rail or the wall for fear of being smitten with the ever present spoon. Some of these kids were tiny. One mother weaned her 13 month old son and put shoes on his feet the day she arrived - BOOM - no warning, just no comforting mother's breast, a stranger who could not nurse him and didn't understand the pain in his feet as well as his heart made him cry.
#2. Did I see myself as a "victim getting victimized?"
NO NO NO! I saw myself as a sinner who was not worthy of the privilege of serving with God's finest men and women - those who ran these programs. I saw myself as being weighed in the balance and found wanting. I saw myself as needing to become a better wife, mother, and woman of God. I saw myself as someone in danger of losing her salvation, of being a total failure, if I did not measure up to standards of FWC and especially if I could not get my son to measure up.
#3, Sweep under the rug what we went through? The wrong teachings? The evil doctrines that were inculcated into our innocent seeking hearts and minds, who wanted only to serve and love God and instead were trained up to serve a self-serving counterfeit?
Nope. I'll be more than happy to discuss FLO, FWC, the errors and the results as long anyone wants to read or listen.
WG
AND ONE MORE THING....
If any of you innies who have kids read this: This is not the right way nor the normal way to raise your children. They are more likely to become the loving, God-respecting, happy kids who obey their parents in the Lord if you raise them according to common sense and real genuine love and kindness and let them participate in school activities and play sports and stuff than if you are always beating on them and telling them to 'LISTEN REMEMBER OBEY'.
Don't listen to your leadership about raising your children. Listen to your heart. Or take them to court and terminate your parental rights and let them be adopted by someone who loves them, so you can "serve the ministry that taught you the word and put God first instead of your kids."
Yep. That was suggested to me in a different situation.
WG
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TheHighWay
Because I had lived on campus at Emporia for a year in the college program, I had a fairly good idea of what the way corps was going to be like. Back then I knew they intended to put us in situations where we pushed ourselves farther than we had done before, broke through our barriers of fear, moved out of our comfort zone, and "had" to rely on God rather than ourselves. That is how I would have defined "toughen us up" back then. I've never had a problem with that aspect of the program. I feel that we who signed up usually had a pretty good idea of what was going to be asked of us WITHIN THE PROGRAM. If you didn't know going in, you learned pretty quick, to expect anything in the name of training.
But it isn't within the program specifics that my feelings of victimization come from... it is from the whole over-arching system and mindset of twi... the teaching that if you questioned something you were either spiritually deficient or just plain evil, or that if you left the group you were walking out from under God's umbrella of protection, or that you received God's blessing by obeying your leadership/husband even when they were wrong (that God would deal with the fact they were wrong, that wasn't your job)...
Did these concepts hold people in place? yes
Did they keep folks from leaving as soon as they might have? yes
Did they build fear and condemnation in people's lives? oh yeah
Did they steal time, prosperity, opportunity, and even health from folks? you bet!
That's how I feel vicitimized. Not by the specific programs, but by the whole mindset. That pervasive, insidious, incrementally evil mindset.
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Ham
In a normal family, one would not ordinarily subject their offspring to hours of screaming, acts of incest, demands that they perform activities that hold the possibility of losing fingers and toes, harsh criticism if they get sick, express supreme dissapointment if they fail to willingly offer you fifteen percent of their income, make threats that if they can't muster up a eight hour workday and manage to stay awake as you ramble on incoherently for another four or five hours, that you'll send them outside to fend for themselves.
in a normal family that is..
"just getting you ready for the world, kiddo.."
The world is a heck of a lot better place, for most people..
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waysider
A big "thank you" to all who have responded to this thread thus far.
It always amazes me how a person who wasn't even present a particular event can offer "expert" testimony.
I saw a cartoon in Mad Magazine, a long time ago, that was captioned, " I saw the whole thing, what happened?"
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Tamar
Wise words, WG. The counsel I received from TWI on childraising was tantamount to child abuse. I left once my first child was 6 months old, which is when they said I sould have started hitting her with that dreaded wooden spoon. I chose to raise my children with kindness and patience coupled with firmness laced with heavy doses of humor, and all 4 of them have turned out just fine. They're also good parents now themselves.
Oops! The line starting with "I'm 46 and I just woke up from a nap..." is mine. Apparently I did something wrong and it looks like its part of the quote I used from WG's previous post... I'll get better at this (or maybe I won't, technology is not my strong suite!).
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excathedra
look damnit there is no way sexual abuse toughens you up
i believe the same thing about spiritual abuse
it just rips your soul right out of you
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excathedra
this is dedicated to exwayfers and wayfers for that matter
and if you think it's only about domestic abuse, think about it.....
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5RTX6DxJ5G8
love,ex
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waysider
Thanks, excie
That's not only a beautifully performed song, it's a very powerful message.
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doojable
Too close to home...thanks
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excathedra
thanks waysider i gotta go
but i'll try to convey what i was saying..... just a little bit.....
--
She loved him like he was, the last man on Earth
(not the last man, but the man of god, like the pope, for her anyway)
Gave him everything she ever had
(her complete trust)
He'd break her spirit down
(very very slowly)
Then come lovin' up to her
(kept counseling her about how HE should love her properly)
Give a little, then take it back
(same old same old vpw)
She'd tell him about her dreams
(all those motorcoach talks with him holding my hand)
He'd just shoot 'em down
(didn't really listen about her past, well he did, but said why she should be with him)
Lord he loved to make her cry
(that says it all)
--
okay enough about me
i'm going to bed
i'm sure i'll be sorry i posted this
i used to be able to delete these kinds of things
damn it
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waysider
No problem, excie.
I think you conveyed your point quite eloquently.
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