Dooj, I don`t know what to tell you. Nobody is calling names here. Nobody is degrading anybody. I don`t think that it will now that stalking and baiting has been eliminated.
Todd, I think that what you say may make sense to you...I have difficulty following.....I am kind of simple...I have to think in mind pictures...that is just how my brain works.
For what it is worth, I think that God works with each of us in a unique and wonderful way, in whatever capacity we allow him as we travel and grow on this journey.
As far as twi being part of my personal journey??? I don`t accept that. I see those guys as being like the false prophets Jesus warned about....these guys lured us off the path, interrupted our progress and lured us into that dark swamp. The robbers that beat up, robbed and left for dead on the side of the road, the poor guy that the good samaritan rescued.
I don`t know how you can learn if you die during the experience...which some of us did.... I don`t know how you can learn and grow if the abuse endured destroys your self worth .
It was a horrible experience visited upon us by horrible people with selfish motives....Yes, I`ll grant you that God had to work, that we were forced to seek his help to finally claw our way out away from the thick viscuous ooze that was sucking us down........that in learning to lean on him, to accept the life line thrown...we grew and learned some valuable lessons.
I am not however, prepared to appreciate the deliberate lure, the snare, the bondage, the anguish suffered as being part of my spiritual journey....If this is part of a Godly plan or design, than I want no part of it, or him....because that would say that in following him, I was led to darkness pain and death, I lost loved ones, our children were abused, our sisters raped...our families torn assunder.
Maybe I am just not understanding what you are saying Todd. I am trying, If I am wrong maybe you can help me see what I am missing. Maybe I don`t need to because those that are meant to get it will I guess.
twi is already part of your journey - because it's already woven into your past.
It's part of your journey just as much as an old stump that once tripped you and caused you to fall, now can be re-visited and used as a seat. Or you can stand on that stump and see new horizons.
TWI may not have been in the blueprints - but it ended up in the wallpaper.
twi is already part of your journey - because it's already woven into your past.
And that's what I think the "just get over it" crowd often times does not really get. A person can't exactly tear out the bad, and keep the good. Look at the recent developments.. do they REALLY think they can "get it right" this time? I don't think so.. especially if a few honest questions are met with hostility or putting someone on just plain ignore.
Sometimes I think part of the next stage of development involves seeing the last one for what it really was..
You THEN have these yahoos claiming that the swamp wasn`t REALLY a swamp...that we could have left any time that we chose...that it was really no different from any OTHER body of water .... that people frolick in and sail their boats or fish or water ski......that truly only the mentally weak or unstable could not leave...
This thread started because of the accusations on the kristin skedgil podcast thread that twi was no worse than any OTHER religious group to leave...that we were simply indulging in victim mentality propaganda.
I maintain that this is not true, a lie...for the reasons that I listed.
Forgive me for editiing out the first part of your post, but this is the part I want to address. I don't believe it's out of context.
There probably are some "yahoos" who claim it wasn't a swamp. What you may not be seeing is how bad some OTHER swamps are. I don't maintain that TWI is no worse than ANY other "body of water," just that it's not worse than EVERY other one.
All I know Dooj, is that it sucked being abused and mistreated. It sucked that my brothers lost their lives. It sucked that my sisters were drugged and raped, and my friends families destroyed. I won`t lay that at God`s feet or as part of his plan for our lives :(
Be that as it may george, The issue here was in countering a claim made by a poster that twi wasn`t any harder to leave than any other religious group.
That any who stayed and were abused, were there because they liked it or were feeble minded.
Those who object to the treatment are simply indulging in victim mindset propaganda.
In THAT context...THIS thread I am discussing that IF the above statement were true....if twi were as harmless and innocuous as the little methodist church down the road...if we didn`t leave because we were weak and stupid....most of us would have displayed these traits with the many other groups that we were involved with before and since.
I have yet to have anyone tell me that to not behave as they dictate that I will be seperated from God.
I have yet to have anyone dictate to me where I lived, who I lived with, where I worked, investigated my finances, insisted that I travel 2x2, abort my children, service the man of God, participate in dangerous activities....all as requirements to remain in the center of God`s will and under his protection.
I have had no problem leaving toxic people and groups before and after twi. I have had no trouble standing up for myself and family and say *no* when being required to do something that was not in our best interests.
The poster was intimating that twi was harmless, it was our fault if we were mistreated.
And that's what I think the "just get over it" crowd often times does not really get. A person can't exactly tear out the bad, and keep the good. Look at the recent developments.. do they REALLY think they can "get it right" this time? I don't think so.. especially if a few honest questions are met with hostility or putting someone on just plain ignore.
Sometimes I think part of the next stage of development involves seeing the last one for what it really was..
That's what I meant by this line, Ham:
Or you can stand on that stump and see new horizons.
There is great value in standing on something that once tripped you up and looking back to see how you missed the thing that tripped you. There is also a whole lot of insight that results in you making sure you won't do that again.
IMHO - the only way to get over it is to realize it for what it is and allow it to inform the decisions you make in the future.
Honestly... would you even consider signing another Green card - regardless of what was written on it?
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rascal
Dooj, I don`t know what to tell you. Nobody is calling names here. Nobody is degrading anybody. I don`t think that it will now that stalking and baiting has been eliminated.
Todd, I think that what you say may make sense to you...I have difficulty following.....I am kind of simple...I have to think in mind pictures...that is just how my brain works.
For what it is worth, I think that God works with each of us in a unique and wonderful way, in whatever capacity we allow him as we travel and grow on this journey.
As far as twi being part of my personal journey??? I don`t accept that. I see those guys as being like the false prophets Jesus warned about....these guys lured us off the path, interrupted our progress and lured us into that dark swamp. The robbers that beat up, robbed and left for dead on the side of the road, the poor guy that the good samaritan rescued.
I don`t know how you can learn if you die during the experience...which some of us did.... I don`t know how you can learn and grow if the abuse endured destroys your self worth .
It was a horrible experience visited upon us by horrible people with selfish motives....Yes, I`ll grant you that God had to work, that we were forced to seek his help to finally claw our way out away from the thick viscuous ooze that was sucking us down........that in learning to lean on him, to accept the life line thrown...we grew and learned some valuable lessons.
I am not however, prepared to appreciate the deliberate lure, the snare, the bondage, the anguish suffered as being part of my spiritual journey....If this is part of a Godly plan or design, than I want no part of it, or him....because that would say that in following him, I was led to darkness pain and death, I lost loved ones, our children were abused, our sisters raped...our families torn assunder.
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rascal
Maybe I am just not understanding what you are saying Todd. I am trying, If I am wrong maybe you can help me see what I am missing. Maybe I don`t need to because those that are meant to get it will I guess.
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doojable
Rascal dear,
Consider this:
twi is already part of your journey - because it's already woven into your past.
It's part of your journey just as much as an old stump that once tripped you and caused you to fall, now can be re-visited and used as a seat. Or you can stand on that stump and see new horizons.
TWI may not have been in the blueprints - but it ended up in the wallpaper.
Thank Goodness wallpaper can be changed....
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Ham
And that's what I think the "just get over it" crowd often times does not really get. A person can't exactly tear out the bad, and keep the good. Look at the recent developments.. do they REALLY think they can "get it right" this time? I don't think so.. especially if a few honest questions are met with hostility or putting someone on just plain ignore.
Sometimes I think part of the next stage of development involves seeing the last one for what it really was..
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GeorgeStGeorge
Forgive me for editiing out the first part of your post, but this is the part I want to address. I don't believe it's out of context.
There probably are some "yahoos" who claim it wasn't a swamp. What you may not be seeing is how bad some OTHER swamps are. I don't maintain that TWI is no worse than ANY other "body of water," just that it's not worse than EVERY other one.
George
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rascal
All I know Dooj, is that it sucked being abused and mistreated. It sucked that my brothers lost their lives. It sucked that my sisters were drugged and raped, and my friends families destroyed. I won`t lay that at God`s feet or as part of his plan for our lives :(
Be that as it may george, The issue here was in countering a claim made by a poster that twi wasn`t any harder to leave than any other religious group.
That any who stayed and were abused, were there because they liked it or were feeble minded.
Those who object to the treatment are simply indulging in victim mindset propaganda.
In THAT context...THIS thread I am discussing that IF the above statement were true....if twi were as harmless and innocuous as the little methodist church down the road...if we didn`t leave because we were weak and stupid....most of us would have displayed these traits with the many other groups that we were involved with before and since.
I have yet to have anyone tell me that to not behave as they dictate that I will be seperated from God.
I have yet to have anyone dictate to me where I lived, who I lived with, where I worked, investigated my finances, insisted that I travel 2x2, abort my children, service the man of God, participate in dangerous activities....all as requirements to remain in the center of God`s will and under his protection.
I have had no problem leaving toxic people and groups before and after twi. I have had no trouble standing up for myself and family and say *no* when being required to do something that was not in our best interests.
The poster was intimating that twi was harmless, it was our fault if we were mistreated.
I don`t agree with that for the above reasons.
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doojable
That's what I meant by this line, Ham:
There is great value in standing on something that once tripped you up and looking back to see how you missed the thing that tripped you. There is also a whole lot of insight that results in you making sure you won't do that again.
IMHO - the only way to get over it is to realize it for what it is and allow it to inform the decisions you make in the future.
Honestly... would you even consider signing another Green card - regardless of what was written on it?
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sirguessalot
just want to say that this seems so very true, dooj
good way to put it
seems a big part of the post-twi conflicts we experience here
how some go back to "me"
and some just move sideways to another "we"
and some move on to other things
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excathedra
it's very difficult when your "me" is stolen before it was formed
that's all i have to add
peace (plagerism at work)
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sirguessalot
that seems a very important point, e
as if ...at any step of the way
our footing is stolen (to whatever depth and degree)
no matter how many steps we take from there
that stolen step will continue to cast a shadow
like an unlit candle on our menora
and so there can be individual shadows
and cultural shadows .. cast by waves of individuals
i dont think its hard to see how important early childhood is
or how important it is to stay in touch with the pain of our past
as a way to help heal from what cant be changed
i would even go as far as to say that this is where the most important work of our second half of life is
...to find out how to live with what went down in the first half...
i think notions of "redemption" tie in here, too
perhaps the same goes for religions..cultures...worlds
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