Your only defense is to point at someone else and whine ....*well they did it too*?
Forgive me if I don't read the two pages of replies that have been written since this one, just in case this has been addressed already.
The topic of this thread is not "Is TWI evil?" It's "Is TWI no Worse than other Religious Groups?
Pointing to someone else and saying "they did it too" is a perfectly acceptable answer.
Again, I've only read the first page, but, Rascal, have you given what YOU believe to be the REASON you stuck with TWI so long? If it was so much worse than other things you were involved in, why DID you stay? Just because TWI declared itself the one, true Church didn't mean you had to stay. Excuse the finger-pointing, but the RC church did exactly the same thing for centuries.
I imagine that there are as many reasons for staying as there are people in Greasespot. One that you might consider is the Way Tree. The small fellowships should be where individuals can get the help they need from their pastor. On the other hand, the low follower-to-leader ratio could also make it easier for the leader to interfere in the followers' lives.
I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but I'll take a crack at it.
I think for me at least, the fact that TWI leadership did not admit, when caught out, that the individuals who abused, be it sexual, mental, emotional, or physical, were wrong, is the big difference. I do acknowledge other organizations, be they churches, clubs, whatever, tried to keep abusive incidents quiet if someone filed suit, complained, whatever, and I agree that's not right. However, because "the Catholic church did such and such and so did TWI, so why are you picking on TWI?" is a deceptive question that drags a red herring across the trail of an honest inquiry. Here's something of an answer: Well, because two wrongs don't make a right. Because the RC church never impacted me personally. TWI did. If I had been a devout Catholic who was exposed to the sexual deviance of a priest I would be just as mad, hurt, shocked, horrified and pi$$ed off. But no priest of the RC church ever told me to choose between God's One True Ministry and my husband. No pope ever suggested to us we take our son out and beat him to death. No Pope ever behaved seductively toward me in a motel room.
And as far as walking away: Anyone who thinks we could have, after years of classes, perhaps graduation from the Way Corps or a Fellow Laborers program or WOW or whatever, simply said, "Thanks but no thanks. I qut." and walked away without repercussions, without fear, without thinking that our lives were about to end, that we would become possessed, suffer physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually and die a horrible death, doesn't know JACK dang about the human mind and how it works. Brainwashing is a perversion of the thinking processes, the ability to reason, the ability to choose.
For several years after I was out, I defended TWI to all critics, including my own family. I was convinced that it was I who was wrong. In spite of the clarity with which I see now, then I just knew if I had had the courage to abandon our son, everything would have been okay. A day after we left TWI, I told my 14-year-old son, "I am going to die now and it's all your fault." I just knew that if he had knuckled under and been a good little Way-Bot, that my diabetes would have healed and everything would be lovely. I was convinced that if it wasn't for his rebellion and disobedience we would still be good little Wayfers. What I realized later was we were to be gotten rid of by any means available, as were so many who had been involved with TWI during the pre-Martindalian times, because we were considered "old wineskins" which could not hold the robust new wine of the present truth of Martindale's ministry. He sent his minions on a mission of destruction to weed out the old faithful standing believers and replace us with Martinclones.
What church does that? Is that the norm for Baptists, Methodists, even catholics? I think not.
If you were to speak disparagingly about the Catholic Church in your local community, would the Vatican dispatch thugs to your doorstep to tell you, in no uncertain terms, failure to desist could earn you a pair of cement overshoes?
Any fingers you point at twi can be pointed multiple times over at the RC Church. They have centuries experience in this stuff and have dwarfed twi in the evil dept.
BTW where do you get the doctrine of "your saved and you can do anything you damned well please to anyone ...". I must've missed that selection in my tape library. I DO remember the one of Galatians 5 that teaches loss of rewards for walking in the flesh...
Say you're right, Oldies, say the RC Church is 10 times more evil than TWI, what is your point?? Should we shut up about TWI because some other religious group might be worse? Hell, I am betting there are many religious groups that are worse. I'd certainly say the extremist fundamentalist muslem groups are worse.
So what? Does that mean I cannot tell the story of what I experienced in TWI? Does that mean I cannot say to someone who asks - "this was my experience and if you participate with them I would recommend proceeding with caution?"
The entire argument that some other group is worse is a fallacy, Oldies - its merely smoke and mirrors to distract people from the real point. In this instance, the real point generally having something to do with a negative experience that occured while in TWI.
BTW - the evils committed by RC and other groups - did you witness them? If you are merely relying on second hand accounts how do you know you have accurate information? How do you know it isn't all lies and exaggerations?
That's why I use the word "alleged" now. I didn't see these evils committed in twi or elsewhere so use of that word is right for me.
I didn't start this thread so perhaps you should ask Rascal what the point is? As I see it, it was started to presumably show that nobody trumps twi in the evil department. I'm merely pointing out that if we were to do some digging, we'd find out fast that evil allegedly flourishes in all the world and in many other religious groups.
As far as whether we should condone it, hello, of course not. If modern day twi is alleged to be engaging in rape, adultery, alcoholism, murder, suicide, drugging, destruction and the like, of course call the police, make it known. But that's beside the point of this thread.
As far as whether we should condone it, hello, of course not. If modern day twi is alleged to be engaging in rape, adultery, alcoholism, murder, suicide, drugging, destruction and the like, of course call the police, make it known. But that's beside the point of this thread.
They haven't denied it, have they?
"I'm sowy mah people's.. we was scum sucking enablers and participants in vic and loy's schemes. We PWOMISE to nevah do it again.."
how modern day do you need to get say, from 1999 or 2000?
when was loy finally ousted?
Did they run those who were complicit out of town on a rail?
Doubt it.
They ran the scumbuckets classes for how long? Last I heard, they still hold on to the names he gave the new classes.
I would call it guilt.. by lack of dissasociation.
They put the screaming, adulterous, womanizing, abuser of staffer's wives, not to mention what it must have done to the husbands, lying, cheating weasel in charge of RESEARCH?
and only cut him loose, when the lawyers could offer no better options?
In my opinion, they are filthy by failing to really dissasociate themselves from him. They are rolling in filth.
Guess that there is more going on then what you have read George, it kind of spans a couple of threads....
Oldies contends that we could have walked away at any time... that twi was no worse than any other religious group to leave from, therefor no harm no foul...it was our own stupidity that kept us there.
He also maintains that those of us who now are outraged with our treatment, with the behavior of leadership as promoting a victim mentality mindset.
He also accused us of wanting no more than to simply blame our own lifes mistakes on someone else.
I challenge that notion, for the reasons listed in my opening post.
Oldies persists on making this thread and my position something that it is not, on redefining the issues and premiss in order to steer away from the unsettling answers to the questions posed in my opening post.
Thank you for putting into words what I am struggling to convey. I am so very very sorry for what they put you guys through. All we wanted to do was serve God and fellowship with believers...and they took even THAT away from us.
Gosh.....normal groups religious or otherwise, just don`t assume control of a persons life that way. Healthy adults simply do not submit to abuse and obey orders that are destructive to ones self and contrary to what is in ones own personal best interest. Healthy thinking adults don`t believe that they will sicken and die if forced to leave a group :(
Since leaving twi, none of us seem to have a problem charting our courses, making our decisions, standing up when treated unfairly, and leaving any given activity when we chose.
Same people ... completely different behavior in and out of twi...why the extremes in behavior?
They put the screaming, adulterous, womanizing, abuser of staffer's wives, not to mention what it must have done to the husbands, lying, cheating weasel in charge of RESEARCH?
They did it KNOWINGLY. They KNEW what he did.. rosie admitted under oath.
Rascal, maybe that partly answers your question. Is twi worse?
One of the local mainstream churches here, around the time loy was handled with kid gloves, they found out, and verified that their minister was a cheating, womanizing weasel.
Hmm.. what to do? Give him a little research position at the home office? Cover, hide and spin, and hope the abs doesn't walk out the door?
The guy was VERY charismatic. Unlike big forehead, VERY intelligent. Had a big degree, had supporters on the board who really like him, and his charming personality.
All that didn't make any difference, they canned his sorry rear. I think he lost everything, pension and all.
twi, on the other hand, can't get a grip on who the REAL enemy is.. not the devil, not unproductive followers, or "evil" greasespotters.. It's themselves.
Then there's another "non-denominational" church.. run by a lying, womanizing, weasel. Calls himself a "preacher of righteousness". Screams at the congregation that if they'd give more, gawd would do something.. same kinda authoritarian setup. I don't think he can get voted out.
Forgive me if I don't read the two pages of replies that have been written since this one, just in case this has been addressed already.
The topic of this thread is not "Is TWI evil?" It's "Is TWI no Worse than other Religious Groups?
Pointing to someone else and saying "they did it too" is a perfectly acceptable answer.
Again, I've only read the first page, but, Rascal, have you given what YOU believe to be the REASON you stuck with TWI so long? If it was so much worse than other things you were involved in, why DID you stay? Just because TWI declared itself the one, true Church didn't mean you had to stay.
...
George, it appears the answer to your question is above, i.e., I think Rascal blames twi for employing brainwashing or extreme manipulation as a reason for her continued attendance.
Can you honestly tell me if twi WAS normal ...as has been maintained....that brainwashing or extreme manipulation of some sort wasn`t employed.........if those of us who suffered really were personally at fault or to blame... ...
Please use my quotes in their entirety rather than taking one partially out of context in order to change their meaning and support your premiss. It isn`t an honest representation of myself or my position.
Ham, you are correct, that is the way churches and groups professing to be christian operate.
Twi had a whole system in place to justify why they didn`t need to obey even the most basic tenants of the christian faith.
So, since I wasn't physically present at the crucifixion of Jesus or the resurrection, I guess I should say He was ALLEGEDLY crucified and ALLEGEDLY raised from the dead?
If you were to speak disparagingly about the Catholic Church in your local community, would the Vatican dispatch thugs to your doorstep to tell you, in no uncertain terms, failure to desist could earn you a pair of cement overshoes?
Please use my quotes in their entirety rather than taking one partially out of context in order to change their meaning and support your premiss. It isn`t an honest representation of myself or my position.
So then you don't blame twi for employing brainwashing or extreme manipulation as a reason for your continued attendance?
I repeat, please when quoting me, use my quotes in their entirety rather than pulling a partial sentence out of context to support your premiss.
I don`t blame twi for anything. I do indeed believe that there was deliberate control, manipulation, and deceit used to enforce continued participation, cooperation from the followers.
I believe that we were controlled.
There is no other explanation I can think of that would cause grown, otherwise healthy adults to submit to the abuse.
There is no other explanation I can think of that would cause grown, otherwise healthy adults to submit to the abuse.
You'd be amazed at the number of 'otherwise healthy adults' who put up with abusive behavior from churches-that-aren't-regarded-as-mind-control-cults (ie., those that are orthodox and mainstream, particularly the fundamentalist variety) when they are told that defying said abusive doctrines, behaviors, and expectation of money (Yes Virginia, there are quite a number of orthodox and mainstream churches that are big and hardass on the tithe issue) would result in them displeasing God/the church/morality/etc.
And how about the ones who want to give up their church/religion/God in total? Do you think that hardly anyone gives a flying flip if someone goes atheist? Hey lady, you want to see the *plentious* times mainstream believers can act just as controlling and 'cultic', just read up on all the deconversion stories where individuals cast aside religion and become atheist, but are afraid to tell their families, or are afraid to let it become known at work (Yes Virginia, you can still lose a job for being atheist even today, and the company that fires you for such can 'doctor up' the incident to where its near impossible to prove). ... Hhmmmm, how 'cultic' would that kind of situation be? ... Look up 'deconversion stories' on Google. You'll get quite an education on the subject.
You see Rascal (and others), Oldies did bring up a valid point in pointing to the RC child abuse situations, and other abuses in other churches. Where his logic fails is where he uses it to make excuses for/downplays the actual crap that went on in TWI. I don't do that. Rather (since this thread _does_ deal in TWI in relation to other religious groups as being worse), I bring up the fact that such abuses (including the behaviors that people distort as 'mind control') aren't exclusively specific to groups that people think of as 'cults'. Such behaviors: control, abuse, intimidation, manipulation, money grubbing, sexual abuse, the claim that _they_ understand what God wants, s**t done in the Name of God over the years, ... bleed over, profusely I might add, to a good number of 'churches-that-aren't-regarded-as-mind-control-cults' as well. ... It's just that its not as easy to spot (or are a lot of people being as honest to admit) when it happens in their own churches backyard, particularly if said church is widely known as 'orthodox' and 'mainstream'.
Very valid points by Rascal and other anti-TWI proponents notwithstanding, this thread here clearly illustrates the selectiveness of the application of the 'cult' terminology, particularly the scientifically-questionable 'theory' of 'mind control', ... and my scrutiny/criticism of that.
The facts hurt Mark. It's near impossible defending the indefensible.
I also think the present day RC doctrine of salvation by grace through performance of the sacraments is particularly untruthful and quite harmful. "God gives grace as long as one works to receive it". I treat my animals better.
Exactly. The facts hurt, Oldies. So why do you continue to defend the indefensible despite all the facts that are laid out?
No, my exasperation was that despite all the facts, all the logic, all the impassioned arguments, there are those who are just so dense, so brainwashed, or so prideful that they simply won't admit that they were taught wrongly by TWI (or other similar cults) about the Church (not naming any names, mind you...I wouldn't want to be accused of making a personal attack).
When I first started posting on GSC I just sucked it up and kept my mouth shut. Then I spoke out...thinking that some might hear. Well, I was utterly wrong. (What do they say about leading horses to water???)
So I think I'll just make this my opus and wish all concerned a nice day.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
36
16
13
8
Popular Days
Mar 5
55
Mar 4
27
Mar 6
23
Mar 10
13
Top Posters In This Topic
rascal 36 posts
oldiesman 16 posts
Ham 13 posts
doojable 8 posts
Popular Days
Mar 5 2008
55 posts
Mar 4 2008
27 posts
Mar 6 2008
23 posts
Mar 10 2008
13 posts
GeorgeStGeorge
Forgive me if I don't read the two pages of replies that have been written since this one, just in case this has been addressed already.
The topic of this thread is not "Is TWI evil?" It's "Is TWI no Worse than other Religious Groups?
Pointing to someone else and saying "they did it too" is a perfectly acceptable answer.
Again, I've only read the first page, but, Rascal, have you given what YOU believe to be the REASON you stuck with TWI so long? If it was so much worse than other things you were involved in, why DID you stay? Just because TWI declared itself the one, true Church didn't mean you had to stay. Excuse the finger-pointing, but the RC church did exactly the same thing for centuries.
I imagine that there are as many reasons for staying as there are people in Greasespot. One that you might consider is the Way Tree. The small fellowships should be where individuals can get the help they need from their pastor. On the other hand, the low follower-to-leader ratio could also make it easier for the leader to interfere in the followers' lives.
George
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Watered Garden
I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but I'll take a crack at it.
I think for me at least, the fact that TWI leadership did not admit, when caught out, that the individuals who abused, be it sexual, mental, emotional, or physical, were wrong, is the big difference. I do acknowledge other organizations, be they churches, clubs, whatever, tried to keep abusive incidents quiet if someone filed suit, complained, whatever, and I agree that's not right. However, because "the Catholic church did such and such and so did TWI, so why are you picking on TWI?" is a deceptive question that drags a red herring across the trail of an honest inquiry. Here's something of an answer: Well, because two wrongs don't make a right. Because the RC church never impacted me personally. TWI did. If I had been a devout Catholic who was exposed to the sexual deviance of a priest I would be just as mad, hurt, shocked, horrified and pi$$ed off. But no priest of the RC church ever told me to choose between God's One True Ministry and my husband. No pope ever suggested to us we take our son out and beat him to death. No Pope ever behaved seductively toward me in a motel room.
And as far as walking away: Anyone who thinks we could have, after years of classes, perhaps graduation from the Way Corps or a Fellow Laborers program or WOW or whatever, simply said, "Thanks but no thanks. I qut." and walked away without repercussions, without fear, without thinking that our lives were about to end, that we would become possessed, suffer physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually and die a horrible death, doesn't know JACK dang about the human mind and how it works. Brainwashing is a perversion of the thinking processes, the ability to reason, the ability to choose.
For several years after I was out, I defended TWI to all critics, including my own family. I was convinced that it was I who was wrong. In spite of the clarity with which I see now, then I just knew if I had had the courage to abandon our son, everything would have been okay. A day after we left TWI, I told my 14-year-old son, "I am going to die now and it's all your fault." I just knew that if he had knuckled under and been a good little Way-Bot, that my diabetes would have healed and everything would be lovely. I was convinced that if it wasn't for his rebellion and disobedience we would still be good little Wayfers. What I realized later was we were to be gotten rid of by any means available, as were so many who had been involved with TWI during the pre-Martindalian times, because we were considered "old wineskins" which could not hold the robust new wine of the present truth of Martindale's ministry. He sent his minions on a mission of destruction to weed out the old faithful standing believers and replace us with Martinclones.
What church does that? Is that the norm for Baptists, Methodists, even catholics? I think not.
WG
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
If you were to speak disparagingly about the Catholic Church in your local community, would the Vatican dispatch thugs to your doorstep to tell you, in no uncertain terms, failure to desist could earn you a pair of cement overshoes?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
Say you're right, Oldies, say the RC Church is 10 times more evil than TWI, what is your point?? Should we shut up about TWI because some other religious group might be worse? Hell, I am betting there are many religious groups that are worse. I'd certainly say the extremist fundamentalist muslem groups are worse.
So what? Does that mean I cannot tell the story of what I experienced in TWI? Does that mean I cannot say to someone who asks - "this was my experience and if you participate with them I would recommend proceeding with caution?"
The entire argument that some other group is worse is a fallacy, Oldies - its merely smoke and mirrors to distract people from the real point. In this instance, the real point generally having something to do with a negative experience that occured while in TWI.
BTW - the evils committed by RC and other groups - did you witness them? If you are merely relying on second hand accounts how do you know you have accurate information? How do you know it isn't all lies and exaggerations?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Maybe the question could more accurately be worded:
"Was TWI any BETTER than any other religious group?"
With a follow-up qualifying question of ------WHY?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Abigail,
That's why I use the word "alleged" now. I didn't see these evils committed in twi or elsewhere so use of that word is right for me.
I didn't start this thread so perhaps you should ask Rascal what the point is? As I see it, it was started to presumably show that nobody trumps twi in the evil department. I'm merely pointing out that if we were to do some digging, we'd find out fast that evil allegedly flourishes in all the world and in many other religious groups.
As far as whether we should condone it, hello, of course not. If modern day twi is alleged to be engaging in rape, adultery, alcoholism, murder, suicide, drugging, destruction and the like, of course call the police, make it known. But that's beside the point of this thread.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
They haven't denied it, have they?
"I'm sowy mah people's.. we was scum sucking enablers and participants in vic and loy's schemes. We PWOMISE to nevah do it again.."
how modern day do you need to get say, from 1999 or 2000?
when was loy finally ousted?
Did they run those who were complicit out of town on a rail?
Doubt it.
They ran the scumbuckets classes for how long? Last I heard, they still hold on to the names he gave the new classes.
I would call it guilt.. by lack of dissasociation.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
They put the screaming, adulterous, womanizing, abuser of staffer's wives, not to mention what it must have done to the husbands, lying, cheating weasel in charge of RESEARCH?
and only cut him loose, when the lawyers could offer no better options?
In my opinion, they are filthy by failing to really dissasociate themselves from him. They are rolling in filth.
Edited by HamLink to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Guess that there is more going on then what you have read George, it kind of spans a couple of threads....
Oldies contends that we could have walked away at any time... that twi was no worse than any other religious group to leave from, therefor no harm no foul...it was our own stupidity that kept us there.
He also maintains that those of us who now are outraged with our treatment, with the behavior of leadership as promoting a victim mentality mindset.
He also accused us of wanting no more than to simply blame our own lifes mistakes on someone else.
I challenge that notion, for the reasons listed in my opening post.
Oldies persists on making this thread and my position something that it is not, on redefining the issues and premiss in order to steer away from the unsettling answers to the questions posed in my opening post.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
(((Watered Garden)))
Thank you for putting into words what I am struggling to convey. I am so very very sorry for what they put you guys through. All we wanted to do was serve God and fellowship with believers...and they took even THAT away from us.
Gosh.....normal groups religious or otherwise, just don`t assume control of a persons life that way. Healthy adults simply do not submit to abuse and obey orders that are destructive to ones self and contrary to what is in ones own personal best interest. Healthy thinking adults don`t believe that they will sicken and die if forced to leave a group :(
Since leaving twi, none of us seem to have a problem charting our courses, making our decisions, standing up when treated unfairly, and leaving any given activity when we chose.
Same people ... completely different behavior in and out of twi...why the extremes in behavior?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
They did it KNOWINGLY. They KNEW what he did.. rosie admitted under oath.
Rascal, maybe that partly answers your question. Is twi worse?
One of the local mainstream churches here, around the time loy was handled with kid gloves, they found out, and verified that their minister was a cheating, womanizing weasel.
Hmm.. what to do? Give him a little research position at the home office? Cover, hide and spin, and hope the abs doesn't walk out the door?
The guy was VERY charismatic. Unlike big forehead, VERY intelligent. Had a big degree, had supporters on the board who really like him, and his charming personality.
All that didn't make any difference, they canned his sorry rear. I think he lost everything, pension and all.
twi, on the other hand, can't get a grip on who the REAL enemy is.. not the devil, not unproductive followers, or "evil" greasespotters.. It's themselves.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Then there's another "non-denominational" church.. run by a lying, womanizing, weasel. Calls himself a "preacher of righteousness". Screams at the congregation that if they'd give more, gawd would do something.. same kinda authoritarian setup. I don't think he can get voted out.
it's a close second to twi.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
George, it appears the answer to your question is above, i.e., I think Rascal blames twi for employing brainwashing or extreme manipulation as a reason for her continued attendance.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Please use my quotes in their entirety rather than taking one partially out of context in order to change their meaning and support your premiss. It isn`t an honest representation of myself or my position.
Ham, you are correct, that is the way churches and groups professing to be christian operate.
Twi had a whole system in place to justify why they didn`t need to obey even the most basic tenants of the christian faith.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Watered Garden
So, since I wasn't physically present at the crucifixion of Jesus or the resurrection, I guess I should say He was ALLEGEDLY crucified and ALLEGEDLY raised from the dead?
WG
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GeorgeStGeorge
Not any more, no.
A few hundred years ago, most certainly.
George
Edited by GeorgeStGeorgeLink to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
So then you don't blame twi for employing brainwashing or extreme manipulation as a reason for your continued attendance?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
I repeat, please when quoting me, use my quotes in their entirety rather than pulling a partial sentence out of context to support your premiss.
I don`t blame twi for anything. I do indeed believe that there was deliberate control, manipulation, and deceit used to enforce continued participation, cooperation from the followers.
I believe that we were controlled.
There is no other explanation I can think of that would cause grown, otherwise healthy adults to submit to the abuse.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sushi
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Watered Garden
Sushi,
Where did you find that picture?
It's hilarious!
WG
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sushi
I did an image search for "golden crap" or something like that. Glad you like it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
You'd be amazed at the number of 'otherwise healthy adults' who put up with abusive behavior from churches-that-aren't-regarded-as-mind-control-cults (ie., those that are orthodox and mainstream, particularly the fundamentalist variety) when they are told that defying said abusive doctrines, behaviors, and expectation of money (Yes Virginia, there are quite a number of orthodox and mainstream churches that are big and hardass on the tithe issue) would result in them displeasing God/the church/morality/etc.
And how about the ones who want to give up their church/religion/God in total? Do you think that hardly anyone gives a flying flip if someone goes atheist? Hey lady, you want to see the *plentious* times mainstream believers can act just as controlling and 'cultic', just read up on all the deconversion stories where individuals cast aside religion and become atheist, but are afraid to tell their families, or are afraid to let it become known at work (Yes Virginia, you can still lose a job for being atheist even today, and the company that fires you for such can 'doctor up' the incident to where its near impossible to prove). ... Hhmmmm, how 'cultic' would that kind of situation be? ... Look up 'deconversion stories' on Google. You'll get quite an education on the subject.
You see Rascal (and others), Oldies did bring up a valid point in pointing to the RC child abuse situations, and other abuses in other churches. Where his logic fails is where he uses it to make excuses for/downplays the actual crap that went on in TWI. I don't do that. Rather (since this thread _does_ deal in TWI in relation to other religious groups as being worse), I bring up the fact that such abuses (including the behaviors that people distort as 'mind control') aren't exclusively specific to groups that people think of as 'cults'. Such behaviors: control, abuse, intimidation, manipulation, money grubbing, sexual abuse, the claim that _they_ understand what God wants, s**t done in the Name of God over the years, ... bleed over, profusely I might add, to a good number of 'churches-that-aren't-regarded-as-mind-control-cults' as well. ... It's just that its not as easy to spot (or are a lot of people being as honest to admit) when it happens in their own churches backyard, particularly if said church is widely known as 'orthodox' and 'mainstream'.
Very valid points by Rascal and other anti-TWI proponents notwithstanding, this thread here clearly illustrates the selectiveness of the application of the 'cult' terminology, particularly the scientifically-questionable 'theory' of 'mind control', ... and my scrutiny/criticism of that.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
Exactly. The facts hurt, Oldies. So why do you continue to defend the indefensible despite all the facts that are laid out?
No, my exasperation was that despite all the facts, all the logic, all the impassioned arguments, there are those who are just so dense, so brainwashed, or so prideful that they simply won't admit that they were taught wrongly by TWI (or other similar cults) about the Church (not naming any names, mind you...I wouldn't want to be accused of making a personal attack).
When I first started posting on GSC I just sucked it up and kept my mouth shut. Then I spoke out...thinking that some might hear. Well, I was utterly wrong. (What do they say about leading horses to water???)
So I think I'll just make this my opus and wish all concerned a nice day.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Watered Garden
Mark, I first spoke in tongues in a Catholic church. I was on my knees in front of a statue of the Virgin.
I have family who are Catholic. They don't believe exactly the way I do, but they love the Lord.
If I have ever made any allusions that hurt you I apologize.
WG
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.