Or a figure of speech, either way I think the point was clear it is not good
Oldies, did the Pope condone the pedophile priests? Because in TWI those at the top not only seemed to condone sexual misconduct, but they participated in it and encouraged it
.
I don't recall any way leadership condoning anything either much like the pope they went about their business under cover. They knew they moved these priest around to cover their pathetic deeds. They should have gave them the boot, turned them in. Yes they condoned them by their actions to protect them and carry on business as usual. They denied their deeds and forced victoms to trial to prove that which they already knew to be true, hoping to wear them down and slither away unscaved again.
Here is a chilling exerpt from Mary Ann Collins book A former nun
I entered the convent for several reasons. I wanted to be closer to God and to serve Him more wholeheartedly. I wanted to learn more about God and to spend my life being more intensely focused on Him. And I believed that God wanted me to be a nun.
The convent was not a healthy place, either spiritually or emotionally. Our self-imposed penances, and our other attempts to make ourselves more holy, actually encouraged self-righteousness. We were not allowed to have friendships, or to be close to any human being. We were supposed to be emotionally detached. We were taught to love people in a detached, impersonal way.
My my what a selective memory you have dove...I know you have been around here long enough to have read about the abuses swept under the carpet, the victims silenced *lest the ministry be blamed*
I DO remember way leadership condoning child sexual abuse. Two cases....come to mind readily...one was The Creep in Alaska who after being moved from limb to limb upon discovery, one position of leadership to the next.... parents of abused children told to let the ministry handle it *in house* to not take it to law enforcement...only to find out that he was simply moved to another state and placed once again in charge of families and children....he just got out of prison a couple of years ago...Steve something
He didn`t go to jail until an outsider caught and turned him in...I think he served 5 or 6 years...
Then there was the fellow that worked at hq for a while....twi united behind him and excoriated the wife for turning HIM in for sexually abusing his daughter.....he went to prison as well. Mark something..
In BOTH cases, the people whom turned them in...the people who were willing to bear witness were the ones attacked, bullied, even threatened in an attempt to secure their cooperation and silence....
The bot knew and condoned, even facilitated the illegal activities of lcm....
Those are all documented and verifiable from newspapers.
As far as what was hidden....
I was told of a rape that went unreported because the limb c convinced the girl that to do so would make the ministry look bad...
Look at what leadership covered up for with vpw....We know that they knew about the drugging and rape. We know that they knew that young girls were being groomed for sexual service .. the knew about the adulter and alcoholism..
To intimate that immoral illegal activities were not condoned, facilitated and covered up, that illegal, immoral activities not only practiced but taught as necessary in order to be a great leader.....would be dishonest.
The trail of broken lives, of people thrown out and m&a `d to silence what they knew is staggering. You have read here first hand accounts from the father AND the sister, as well as the then 17 yr old victim herself what vpw did when she refused his sexual overtures...what he did to her reputation...how he lied so that they would never believe her...how the father was pressured to throw this posessed thing out of his house or face the consecquences...
Cover up??? Darned right....and for our numbers statistically??? I`ll bet we far out strip any group for criminal abuse swept under the carpet.
Watered Garden, isn`t it really strange how they managed to get us to turn off our internal alarms?? I mean, you would know that something wasn`t right...you would feel it in the very depths of your bones...but to consider it would be...*thinking evil*.... we always assumed that it was our error in understanding....that we must put all questions on a back burner until we were spiritual enough to understand it.
You are darned right that was inappropriate.....I can see how completely naieve we were. My daughter is the age that we were then...so young and bright...so willing to please...the thought of these dirty old men manuvering naieve, trusting young girls into this position...makes my blood boil.
I know that for nearly 5 years after I left, that I tightly controlled my thinking. I didn`t want to prove them right, that I would be posessed when I left...that I would think evil, or speak a negative. I didn`t dare deviate a hair from the teachings and instructions .... I still arose in prayer and read scriptures, I looked for areas to tithe, I witnessed as best I could...in short all of the habit patterns developed in twi. I waited nearly 5 long years for the other shoe to drop and for satan to take my family out :(
In hind sight, that stikes me as powerful indoctrination.
Abby, I think that you are correct.
I also don`t think people who describe twi as the *norm* have honestly ever spent much time involved with any other group. Oh well ...if vp said the churches are just spiritually empty...they must be really bad....no matter WHAT they did...well it couldn`t be as bad as those churches.
The thing is...folks stay away and assume that what they have is superior.
Looking back on that incident, at first I felt stupid. When I came to WayDale and then to Greasespot, I adamantly defended VPW. I didn't believe the others' accounts for one minute, UNTIL someone wrote of him rubbing her back, telling he how special she was, how much he wanted to help her, and it was almost word for word! I will probably never be able to convey my regret at what must have seemed like hardheartedness, but in truth, I was just playing Cleopatra - Queen of Denial.
I mean, this guy was about 58 years old!
Honestly, If anyone ever tried something like that with MY daughter (if I had one) it would be Galatians 5:12, KJV for him.
Gosh me too. I never believed the stories either. We wanted to believe these guys, wanted to believe that they were who and what they said they were. We wanted desperately to be those men and women who changed the world for the better.
Who would ever dream that their hearts and motives were not as pure and idealistic as our own??
I remember a poster...I think cookie might have been the name that posted here for a short time...claimed that the girls wanted it, liked to feel special...wanted to be with the mog....only now they just want to complain.
I am 46 years old ... almost 2 n a half times the age I was then.....and all I can say is that even today would be ...ICK!!!
Yet these guys were able to convince folks that it was an honor, their spiritual long suit and ministry, to where some still feel that way two decades later.
The facts hurt Mark. It's near impossible defending the indefensible.
I also think the present day RC doctrine of salvation by grace through performance of the sacraments is particularly untruthful and quite harmful. "God gives grace as long as one works to receive it". I treat my animals better.
This stuff was used to build the myth of the specialness, the uniqueness of the MOGFODAT. It's kinda like gilding a turd with melted gold. It may look special, but it's still .... and it still stinks.
Just sayin' that the Catholic church has done much in the charity department.
Probably more then any other church group, but I'm guessing on that.
I've seen some of their places where they take care of severely handicapped kids, and take care of them as long as they live, which is a long time for some of them.
No, not excusing any wrong doing but it needs to be said.
So I said it. We were taught to be against the Catholic church in twi.
Other denominations have their same problems as well.
The facts hurt Mark. It's near impossible defending the indefensible.
I also think the present day RC doctrine of salvation by grace through performance of the sacraments is particularly untruthful and quite harmful. "God gives grace as long as one works to receive it". I treat my animals better.
Oldies,is what you do not exactly the same?? Defend the indefensible??
I personally think that twi`s doctrine, of your saved and you can do anything you damned well please to anyone ....odbedience to the mog = obediance to God...the mog is the king....is more damaging than anything ever practiced in the rc church.
I`m just saying that there isn`t ANYBODY who can out do twi as far as damaging doctrine...or doctrine that allows evil and abuse to flourish.
Any fingers you point at twi can be pointed multiple times over at the RC Church. They have centuries experience in this stuff and have dwarfed twi in the evil dept.
BTW where do you get the doctrine of "your saved and you can do anything you damned well please to anyone ...". I must've missed that selection in my tape library. I DO remember the one of Galatians 5 that teaches loss of rewards for walking in the flesh...
...This stuff was used to build the myth of the specialness, the uniqueness of the MOGFODAT. It's kinda like gilding a turd with melted gold. It may look special, but it's still .... and it still stinks.
WG
Watered Garden - that just made my day!
Ya know...we may have misunderstood him...maybe what he actually said was "When it comes to the turd, I have no friends.".....That makes a lot more sense now...especially sense of smell.
[edited because I'm on a roll now.......uhm....er....roll of TP that is - ]
I don`t think ANYBODY can dwarf twi in the evil department....apparently there were a LOT of things you missed in twi besides the teachings that enabled evil to run rampant and unchecked.
I think that you need to believe that this is normal. It isn`t, but because you can point to isolated instances in organizations that involve billions of people through centuries of existence....and claim that it isn`t just twi...it seems to make you feel a little better about ignoring the implications of the evil men that tormented people in our group.
Fact is, it was different. Got much more into one's head. Having persuaded adherents to give up friends, family, loved ones, activities, professional aspirations, music and practically anything else that "held them back" from "being God's best" and persuaded people to burn or destroy possessions as harboring devil spirits - people didn't have a lot to fall back on.
Hey, I spent nearly a decade in condemnation and fear. Christian friends knew I had problems which were "religion" related. A dear friend came to me one time, held her arms out and said, "God wants you back!" and urged me to renew my relationship with Him (this is several years into being M&A'd). Of course, I thought she was po-zest because wouldn't God tell me first?? Other Christian friends also sought to help. Glad they stayed faithful and loving to me - I was really unloveable thanks to That Place.
But I'd had no qualms about leaving my church decades before as being sad and boring. (Maybe that was just being a teenager.)
Devil spirits? I think we must all have picked up a big load of 'em to produce spiritual blindness, deafness, dullness of mind, subservience, and who knows what else. Those thoughts had a life and a binding power of their own.
OK, a show of hands...out of how many greasespotters participating in this thread...
How many of us have personally participated in groups where those in charge drugged and raped teenaged women?? coerced young women into sexual servitude?? threw members who refused to participate out and then had the excommunicated so that no one could talk to them?? Had members committing suicide when injured and thrown out...when their wives wouldn`t leave the mogs service???
How many had rampant adultery and alcoholism, those in charge permitted to rage and scream at the members while the members were required to submit mutely??
How many people have been in groups where submition of finances was mandatory, who you lived with and where was dictated...your scheduals submitted in 15 miniute incriments including intimacy with spouse???
How many of us here hacve ever participated in a group where we were told that our lives were forfiet if we were to leave...that if we didn`t obey to the minutest detail every edict we would be forced out???
How many of us have been dictated to by anybody that they must leave their spouse...throw their kids out...abandon family...abort our children???
How many of us are having nightmares decades later from any other group than twi??
I`m telling you...I think there is a reason that we are still impacted today.
It isn`t becasue we are mentally weak, or mentally ill, or indulging in victim mentality propaganda....else we would have these same problems with EVERY activity and group that we chose to participate in.
...I think that you need to believe that this is normal. It isn`t, but because you can point to isolated instances in organizations that involve billions of people through centuries of existence...
Talk about whitewashing horribly evil and devilish acts ... wow.
If ever'im accused of that again its like the pot calling the kettle black...
well..I suppose you could twist it to appear that was what I was saying.
Twi leaders indulged in unbridled evil, they taught a doctrine that permitted this and then encouraged their leaders to embrace a lifestyle of cruelty and abuse...vpw taught them how to steal, kill, and destroy ...from those whom they had charge of...using scriptural gymnatics to enforce their sick sick orders, and also as an excuse for the damage wrought...and yet some how, if you can look at another group...point your finger and inflate some numbers...some how you can be ok with twi.
Not at all. Evil in ANY group is not ok. But you are alleging that twi evil was the worse evil of all time, and I'm giving facts that dispute your allegation. But because your mindset is such that twi was the worse group of all time that that's that, you're just immune to facts to the contrary...
OK, a show of hands...out of how many greasespotters participating in this thread...
How many of us have personally participated in groups where those in charge drugged and raped teenaged women?? coerced young women into sexual servitude?? threw members who refused to participate out and then had the excommunicated so that no one could talk to them?? Had members committing suicide when injured and thrown out...when their wives wouldn`t leave the mogs service???
How many had rampant adultery and alcoholism, those in charge permitted to rage and scream at the members while the members were required to submit mutely??
How many people have been in groups where submition of finances was mandatory, who you lived with and where was dictated...your scheduals submitted in 15 miniute incriments including intimacy with spouse???
How many of us here hacve ever participated in a group where we were told that our lives were forfiet if we were to leave...that if we didn`t obey to the minutest detail every edict we would be forced out???
How many of us have been dictated to by anybody that they must leave their spouse...throw their kids out...abandon family...abort our children???
How many of us are having nightmares decades later from any other group than twi??
I`m telling you...I think there is a reason that we are still impacted today.
It isn`t becasue we are mentally weak, or mentally ill, or indulging in victim mentality propaganda....else we would have these same problems with EVERY activity and group that we chose to participate in.
Lessee. the local radio club? Nope.. that never fit the above description..
the Methodist church I attended as a youth? Naw..
Boy scout troup? Nope..
umm.. in fact, the kind of activities documented in the lives of the higher ups in der vey were never even ALLEGED in these little groups I refer to.. even twenty, thirty years later.
I don't know how one can excuse acts of barbarity with other acts of barbarity. The only difference with der vey.. it is still a young, power, money, and blood hungry little cult. Compared to other religions, that is..
"what about what THEY did over there.."
the characterization really cuts both ways Oldies.. comparing the vey to another group at their worst is pretty effective.
That isn`t what I alleged at all oldies. Please don`t pin that on ME and then attack me on what YOU say that my position is, it is incorrect at best, dishonest at worst.
Your attempt to portray twi as harmless, and we that we had the ability to refuse and leave seems to be what is contrary to the facts as have been presented.
Your allegation that we simply want to indulge in a pity party, that we want to promote victim mentality, seems to be mistaken....
If I were a psychotic liar, if I was simply looking for someone to blame my poor lifes choices on...I would be targeting a much wider spetrum of people and activities...
There is only one group that has enforced their will upon me, where I felt there was no other choice than to obey.
I have had no trouble standing up for myself before or since. What makes twi so sinisterly different?
The link "Priests of Darkness" does contain allegations of abuse from churches other than the RC. Here's an excerpt:
Additional Information from other sources
Four in 10 US Catholic nuns report having experienced sexual abuse, (a rate equivalent to that reported by American women in general), a study by Catholic researchers supported by major religious orders, has found. The study found that sisters have known sexual abuse less in childhood, dispelling what the authors call an "anti-Catholic" canard that girls fled to convents to escape sexual advances. During religious life, close to 30% of the nation's 85,000 nuns experienced "sexual trauma," ranging from rape to exploitation to harassment. A total of 40% reported a least one experience of that kind. NCR, 1/15/99 See The Nuns' Stories for details.
The Wisconsin Psychological Association's survey found offenders distributed among the following professions: Psychiatrists 34%, Psychologists 19%, Social Workers 13%, Clergy 11%, Physicians 6%, Marriage Counselors 4%, and Others 14%.
The Center for Domestic Violence found that 12.6% of clergy said they had sex with church members. 47% of clergy women were harassed by clergy colleagues.
The Presbyterian Church stated that 10-23% of clergy have "inappropriate sexual behavior or contact" with clergy and employees.
The United Methodist research (1990) showed 38.6% of Ministers had sexual contact with church members and that 77% of church workers experienced some type of sexual harassment.
The United Church of Christ found that 48% of the women in the work place have been sexually harassed by male clergy.
The Southern Baptists claim 14.1% of their clergy have sexually abused members.
At least the Roman Catholic Bishops can take heart: they're not alone...
For me, the fact that twi allegedly engaged in this stuff in the past is at least equal to all of this other evil stuff. So where's the proof they are still allegedly engaging in rape, drugs, adultery, alcoholism, etc. This is comparing apples with apples, so to say twi is the worse evil just doesn't line up with facts we have available to us when one considers the allegations about other groups as well.
That isn`t what I alleged at all oldies. Please don`t pin that on ME and then attack me on what YOU say that my position is, it is incorrect at best, dishonest at worst.
Well it sure sounds like you alleged it, perhaps I'm missing something.. Here's the quote:
"I`m just saying that there isn`t ANYBODY who can out do twi as far as damaging doctrine...or doctrine that allows evil and abuse to flourish. "
I`m just saying that there isn`t ANYBODY who can out do twi as far as damaging doctrine...or doctrine that allows evil and abuse to flourish.
I don`t think ANYBODY can dwarf twi in the evil department...
Golly , that sounds to me like you just said twi was the worse group and worse evil of all time. i.e. "there isn't ANYBODY who can out do twi as far as damaging doctrine or doctrine that allows evil and abuse to flourish ..." "I don't think ANYBODY can dwarf twi in the evil department..." So what's the difference and how did I mis-read your position?
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waysider
10x worse?
Is that a verifiable statistic?
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WhiteDove
Or a figure of speech, either way I think the point was clear it is not good
.I don't recall any way leadership condoning anything either much like the pope they went about their business under cover. They knew they moved these priest around to cover their pathetic deeds. They should have gave them the boot, turned them in. Yes they condoned them by their actions to protect them and carry on business as usual. They denied their deeds and forced victoms to trial to prove that which they already knew to be true, hoping to wear them down and slither away unscaved again.
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WhiteDove
Speaking of cults.........
Here is a chilling exerpt from Mary Ann Collins book A former nun
I entered the convent for several reasons. I wanted to be closer to God and to serve Him more wholeheartedly. I wanted to learn more about God and to spend my life being more intensely focused on Him. And I believed that God wanted me to be a nun.
The convent was not a healthy place, either spiritually or emotionally. Our self-imposed penances, and our other attempts to make ourselves more holy, actually encouraged self-righteousness. We were not allowed to have friendships, or to be close to any human being. We were supposed to be emotionally detached. We were taught to love people in a detached, impersonal way.
Sound familiar?
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rascal
My my what a selective memory you have dove...I know you have been around here long enough to have read about the abuses swept under the carpet, the victims silenced *lest the ministry be blamed*
I DO remember way leadership condoning child sexual abuse. Two cases....come to mind readily...one was The Creep in Alaska who after being moved from limb to limb upon discovery, one position of leadership to the next.... parents of abused children told to let the ministry handle it *in house* to not take it to law enforcement...only to find out that he was simply moved to another state and placed once again in charge of families and children....he just got out of prison a couple of years ago...Steve something
He didn`t go to jail until an outsider caught and turned him in...I think he served 5 or 6 years...
Then there was the fellow that worked at hq for a while....twi united behind him and excoriated the wife for turning HIM in for sexually abusing his daughter.....he went to prison as well. Mark something..
In BOTH cases, the people whom turned them in...the people who were willing to bear witness were the ones attacked, bullied, even threatened in an attempt to secure their cooperation and silence....
The bot knew and condoned, even facilitated the illegal activities of lcm....
Those are all documented and verifiable from newspapers.
As far as what was hidden....
I was told of a rape that went unreported because the limb c convinced the girl that to do so would make the ministry look bad...
Look at what leadership covered up for with vpw....We know that they knew about the drugging and rape. We know that they knew that young girls were being groomed for sexual service .. the knew about the adulter and alcoholism..
To intimate that immoral illegal activities were not condoned, facilitated and covered up, that illegal, immoral activities not only practiced but taught as necessary in order to be a great leader.....would be dishonest.
The trail of broken lives, of people thrown out and m&a `d to silence what they knew is staggering. You have read here first hand accounts from the father AND the sister, as well as the then 17 yr old victim herself what vpw did when she refused his sexual overtures...what he did to her reputation...how he lied so that they would never believe her...how the father was pressured to throw this posessed thing out of his house or face the consecquences...
Cover up??? Darned right....and for our numbers statistically??? I`ll bet we far out strip any group for criminal abuse swept under the carpet.
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rascal
Watered Garden, isn`t it really strange how they managed to get us to turn off our internal alarms?? I mean, you would know that something wasn`t right...you would feel it in the very depths of your bones...but to consider it would be...*thinking evil*.... we always assumed that it was our error in understanding....that we must put all questions on a back burner until we were spiritual enough to understand it.
You are darned right that was inappropriate.....I can see how completely naieve we were. My daughter is the age that we were then...so young and bright...so willing to please...the thought of these dirty old men manuvering naieve, trusting young girls into this position...makes my blood boil.
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rascal
I know that for nearly 5 years after I left, that I tightly controlled my thinking. I didn`t want to prove them right, that I would be posessed when I left...that I would think evil, or speak a negative. I didn`t dare deviate a hair from the teachings and instructions .... I still arose in prayer and read scriptures, I looked for areas to tithe, I witnessed as best I could...in short all of the habit patterns developed in twi. I waited nearly 5 long years for the other shoe to drop and for satan to take my family out :(
In hind sight, that stikes me as powerful indoctrination.
Abby, I think that you are correct.
I also don`t think people who describe twi as the *norm* have honestly ever spent much time involved with any other group. Oh well ...if vp said the churches are just spiritually empty...they must be really bad....no matter WHAT they did...well it couldn`t be as bad as those churches.
The thing is...folks stay away and assume that what they have is superior.
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Watered Garden
Rascal,
Looking back on that incident, at first I felt stupid. When I came to WayDale and then to Greasespot, I adamantly defended VPW. I didn't believe the others' accounts for one minute, UNTIL someone wrote of him rubbing her back, telling he how special she was, how much he wanted to help her, and it was almost word for word! I will probably never be able to convey my regret at what must have seemed like hardheartedness, but in truth, I was just playing Cleopatra - Queen of Denial.
I mean, this guy was about 58 years old!
Honestly, If anyone ever tried something like that with MY daughter (if I had one) it would be Galatians 5:12, KJV for him.
WG
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rascal
(((Watered Garden))))
Gosh me too. I never believed the stories either. We wanted to believe these guys, wanted to believe that they were who and what they said they were. We wanted desperately to be those men and women who changed the world for the better.
Who would ever dream that their hearts and motives were not as pure and idealistic as our own??
I remember a poster...I think cookie might have been the name that posted here for a short time...claimed that the girls wanted it, liked to feel special...wanted to be with the mog....only now they just want to complain.
I am 46 years old ... almost 2 n a half times the age I was then.....and all I can say is that even today would be ...ICK!!!
Yet these guys were able to convince folks that it was an honor, their spiritual long suit and ministry, to where some still feel that way two decades later.
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oldiesman
The facts hurt Mark. It's near impossible defending the indefensible.
I also think the present day RC doctrine of salvation by grace through performance of the sacraments is particularly untruthful and quite harmful. "God gives grace as long as one works to receive it". I treat my animals better.
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Ham
guilding a turd..
thanks..
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cman
Just sayin' that the Catholic church has done much in the charity department.
Probably more then any other church group, but I'm guessing on that.
I've seen some of their places where they take care of severely handicapped kids, and take care of them as long as they live, which is a long time for some of them.
No, not excusing any wrong doing but it needs to be said.
So I said it. We were taught to be against the Catholic church in twi.
Other denominations have their same problems as well.
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rascal
Oldies,is what you do not exactly the same?? Defend the indefensible??
I personally think that twi`s doctrine, of your saved and you can do anything you damned well please to anyone ....odbedience to the mog = obediance to God...the mog is the king....is more damaging than anything ever practiced in the rc church.
I`m just saying that there isn`t ANYBODY who can out do twi as far as damaging doctrine...or doctrine that allows evil and abuse to flourish.
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oldiesman
Sounds a little like Papal Infallibility.
Any fingers you point at twi can be pointed multiple times over at the RC Church. They have centuries experience in this stuff and have dwarfed twi in the evil dept.
BTW where do you get the doctrine of "your saved and you can do anything you damned well please to anyone ...". I must've missed that selection in my tape library. I DO remember the one of Galatians 5 that teaches loss of rewards for walking in the flesh...
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T-Bone
Ya know...we may have misunderstood him...maybe what he actually said was "When it comes to the turd, I have no friends.".....That makes a lot more sense now...especially sense of smell.
[edited because I'm on a roll now.......uhm....er....roll of TP that is -
]
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rascal
I don`t think ANYBODY can dwarf twi in the evil department....apparently there were a LOT of things you missed in twi besides the teachings that enabled evil to run rampant and unchecked.
I think that you need to believe that this is normal. It isn`t, but because you can point to isolated instances in organizations that involve billions of people through centuries of existence....and claim that it isn`t just twi...it seems to make you feel a little better about ignoring the implications of the evil men that tormented people in our group.
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Twinky
Fact is, it was different. Got much more into one's head. Having persuaded adherents to give up friends, family, loved ones, activities, professional aspirations, music and practically anything else that "held them back" from "being God's best" and persuaded people to burn or destroy possessions as harboring devil spirits - people didn't have a lot to fall back on.
Hey, I spent nearly a decade in condemnation and fear. Christian friends knew I had problems which were "religion" related. A dear friend came to me one time, held her arms out and said, "God wants you back!" and urged me to renew my relationship with Him (this is several years into being M&A'd). Of course, I thought she was po-zest because wouldn't God tell me first?? Other Christian friends also sought to help. Glad they stayed faithful and loving to me - I was really unloveable thanks to That Place.
But I'd had no qualms about leaving my church decades before as being sad and boring. (Maybe that was just being a teenager.)
Devil spirits? I think we must all have picked up a big load of 'em to produce spiritual blindness, deafness, dullness of mind, subservience, and who knows what else. Those thoughts had a life and a binding power of their own.
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rascal
OK, a show of hands...out of how many greasespotters participating in this thread...
How many of us have personally participated in groups where those in charge drugged and raped teenaged women?? coerced young women into sexual servitude?? threw members who refused to participate out and then had the excommunicated so that no one could talk to them?? Had members committing suicide when injured and thrown out...when their wives wouldn`t leave the mogs service???
How many had rampant adultery and alcoholism, those in charge permitted to rage and scream at the members while the members were required to submit mutely??
How many people have been in groups where submition of finances was mandatory, who you lived with and where was dictated...your scheduals submitted in 15 miniute incriments including intimacy with spouse???
How many of us here hacve ever participated in a group where we were told that our lives were forfiet if we were to leave...that if we didn`t obey to the minutest detail every edict we would be forced out???
How many of us have been dictated to by anybody that they must leave their spouse...throw their kids out...abandon family...abort our children???
How many of us are having nightmares decades later from any other group than twi??
I`m telling you...I think there is a reason that we are still impacted today.
It isn`t becasue we are mentally weak, or mentally ill, or indulging in victim mentality propaganda....else we would have these same problems with EVERY activity and group that we chose to participate in.
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oldiesman
Talk about whitewashing horribly evil and devilish acts ... wow.
If ever'im accused of that again its like the pot calling the kettle black...
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rascal
well..I suppose you could twist it to appear that was what I was saying.
Twi leaders indulged in unbridled evil, they taught a doctrine that permitted this and then encouraged their leaders to embrace a lifestyle of cruelty and abuse...vpw taught them how to steal, kill, and destroy ...from those whom they had charge of...using scriptural gymnatics to enforce their sick sick orders, and also as an excuse for the damage wrought...and yet some how, if you can look at another group...point your finger and inflate some numbers...some how you can be ok with twi.
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oldiesman
Not at all. Evil in ANY group is not ok. But you are alleging that twi evil was the worse evil of all time, and I'm giving facts that dispute your allegation. But because your mindset is such that twi was the worse group of all time that that's that, you're just immune to facts to the contrary...
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Ham
Lessee. the local radio club? Nope.. that never fit the above description..
the Methodist church I attended as a youth? Naw..
Boy scout troup? Nope..
umm.. in fact, the kind of activities documented in the lives of the higher ups in der vey were never even ALLEGED in these little groups I refer to.. even twenty, thirty years later.
I don't know how one can excuse acts of barbarity with other acts of barbarity. The only difference with der vey.. it is still a young, power, money, and blood hungry little cult. Compared to other religions, that is..
"what about what THEY did over there.."
the characterization really cuts both ways Oldies.. comparing the vey to another group at their worst is pretty effective.
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rascal
That isn`t what I alleged at all oldies. Please don`t pin that on ME and then attack me on what YOU say that my position is, it is incorrect at best, dishonest at worst.
Your attempt to portray twi as harmless, and we that we had the ability to refuse and leave seems to be what is contrary to the facts as have been presented.
Your allegation that we simply want to indulge in a pity party, that we want to promote victim mentality, seems to be mistaken....
If I were a psychotic liar, if I was simply looking for someone to blame my poor lifes choices on...I would be targeting a much wider spetrum of people and activities...
There is only one group that has enforced their will upon me, where I felt there was no other choice than to obey.
I have had no trouble standing up for myself before or since. What makes twi so sinisterly different?
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oldiesman
Ham,
The link "Priests of Darkness" does contain allegations of abuse from churches other than the RC. Here's an excerpt:
For me, the fact that twi allegedly engaged in this stuff in the past is at least equal to all of this other evil stuff. So where's the proof they are still allegedly engaging in rape, drugs, adultery, alcoholism, etc. This is comparing apples with apples, so to say twi is the worse evil just doesn't line up with facts we have available to us when one considers the allegations about other groups as well.
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oldiesman
Well it sure sounds like you alleged it, perhaps I'm missing something.. Here's the quote:
"I`m just saying that there isn`t ANYBODY who can out do twi as far as damaging doctrine...or doctrine that allows evil and abuse to flourish. "
Golly , that sounds to me like you just said twi was the worse group and worse evil of all time. i.e. "there isn't ANYBODY who can out do twi as far as damaging doctrine or doctrine that allows evil and abuse to flourish ..." "I don't think ANYBODY can dwarf twi in the evil department..." So what's the difference and how did I mis-read your position?
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