Perhaps the first thing that should be mentioned is that Wierwille was WRONG...his hocus pocus power of the mind teachings were fantasy and bullchit...
...and I think it underscores his total lack of empathy and compassion towards parents who had lost a child and parents in general. What an arrogant jerk he was.
Just really something she would want to remember all her life.
Too bad the nun didn't have much of a heart. Flowers would have been wonderful, maybe with an object that represents his interests in life, i.e. a baseball or soccer ball, or musical instrument or something.
How sad for the children.
My son is all grown, sort of, and I still pray for him and concern myself with him every day.
That teaching is so clearly sick and wrong that I wonder at my blindness the 40 plus times I sat through that *^$%^#@ class.
And that's like in the first hour. What was the magic spell that got us to buy into that bozo ?
I think so many of us bought into it because A) we were young and single and had no clue what it felt like to be a parent or B) he did with this what he did with so many other "principles" he taught-- started with what is accepted Christian doctrine (your actions have consequences) and took it a step or two further to make us feel like we were receiving special insight.
We just wanted to know more than we knew, and went to the wrong source to find it.
Too bad the nun didn't have much of a heart. Flowers would have been wonderful, maybe with an object that represents his interests in life, i.e. a baseball or soccer ball, or musical instrument or something.
Ok I gotta say this I don't often speak up in favor of the church, because I personally think it is a cult. But the heart statement bothered me somewhat. Having three aunts that were Sisters of Charity I have to say just like in the Way there are good and bad people in the Catholic Church. One thing to consider is that nuns take a vow of poverty they don't often have anything to give. My dad took care of his sisters needs often he used to give them money to get things they needed but they ended up giving it to the offerings, so he had my mom take them out when they would visit shopping for things they needed. It may be that she did not lack heart it may be that is all she had to give. I still think it is creepy none the less but I'm just saying...... I have to also consider that symbolic items are central to that religion she probably saw it as a thing of honor. I know growing up on special occasions we would get holy cards, rosaries and such from the aunts and after awhile I know they were not appreciated that much , I mean when you are a kid and you have fifty-two rosaries, the complete holy card collection volumes one through 12, and so many medals that it makes Mr. T's Bling look weak, it just wasn't that great. Once I got a really cool folding set of silverware for scouts, although someone forgot to mention that I was not in scouts. Anyway they gave what they had to give it's too bad they had to live that way while the Pope can only "touch" solid gold things. But that is the way cults go.......
Oh God Ex, you have touched on the most damaging doctrine taught by that miserable sob.
The one time I ever really hurt my grandmother, the one time I really upset her to tears, was over this bull crap dogma.
I pompously announced that her son whom had died as a teenager of hodgkins disease did so because of his *believing.
As a mother now, I cringe at my arrogance and cruelty. To have watched a beloved son, struggle, suffer, and die ...to stand by unable to help as they faded away... to have to bury your sweet son....is unimaginable.
To have some punk 18 year old snot announce that it was all his fault, that if he had believed just a little harder...he`d a been fine.
It`s one of those things, the hurt in her eyes as she looked at me that will never go away.
I too have obsessed over my childrens safety, who they were with, were they chaperoned, self defense, diet, whatever was within my power to give them the greatest chance of survival since the day they were born.
White Dove, I absolute did not mean to touch on any nerve or to generalize. When I lived in Charleston I worked at St. Francis Xavier Hospital which at that time was run by the Sisters of our Lady of Charity and Mercy and they were the kindest people on earth. I just thought a black cross was a little harsh. Perhaps it was in her culture or an important part of Church Doctrine, I don't know. Maybe it was indeed all she had. I just thought a little brighter memorial might have helped the kiddies. From the boy's age, he had already made his First Communion and would have been going to heaven, I would imagine.
No nerve touched here WG I just thought maybe it was not a heart matter ,but a lack of substance matter maybe or perhaps she thought that was the best thing to do from her perspective.
Exactly. It is also called "parenting." If you don't worry and fear for your child to some degree, you are not normal.
The most obvious refutation of one of the stupidest doctrines in TWI is that there are actually children running around in the world!
Non of us would be here today, much less have been around for that idiotic class.
It gave an easy answer to those unanswerable hurt-filled "why" questions in life. To come down on the fear of a parent protecting and watching out for their kids is just lunacy.
You want to come down on parents, point the finger at those that DON'T care enough to be fearful and careful enough to watch out and protect their kids from the many time obvious dangers in the world that a normal parent worries about.
i'm not sure i got that quote exactly correct, but it's close eh ?
tonight i was driving on an overpass which i drive over every day
when i was in 6th grade, billy walls got hit and killed by a car when he riding his bike on the sidewalk of that overpass. i think of him each time i drive by the spot
he was an only child and his mom had him "later in life" (for all i know, she was younger than i when i had my only son)
i will never ever forget her face at the wake and funeral. i was like 11, and to me, she looked like her life was over
i hope she never took pfal
my mom did take pfal (for me) because i begged her to. after the class was over i couldn't wait for her to tell me what she thought and pretty much the only thing she said was how upsetting the thing was about how worrying about your kids could bring them harm....
(there are 9 of us, at present we are ages 43 to 53)
--
now i'm a mom of an only child and i worry so much about my precious boy
--
HOW DARE WIERWILLE TEACH THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH WORRY ABOUT YOUR BABY, YOUR LIFE !!!!!
how unloving, how cruel, how disgusting, i don't even have the words
--
okay thank you for letting me rant
love,
OK, rant on if you want to, but here is fine example of people who only remember half a story (or the part they want to remember of it) and are offended by the part they remember. Here's the other half of that story from PFAL - the part most people don't rememeber (I placed that part in bolded text below - from PFAL):
Years ago I knew a minister whose wife had passed away and he had seven or eight children. I just do not recall how many children. About a year later he married another woman who had four or five of her own. And I suppose this gave it to them cheaper by the dozen, but I'm not sure. But they lived happily together.
And about a block and a half away lived a woman who had just one boy. And this woman who had just this one son was always frustrated, always nervous, always afraid. While this minister and his wife who had this whole bunch of children it just seemed like some how or another nothing ever happened to them. Oh they get a black eye once in awhile, somebody comes home with a bloody nose, but they just lived.
But this one woman with her one son, boy she was a nervous frustrated woman if you ever saw one. And week after week and month after month it got worse.
When her little boy started to kindergarten she used to walk him across the street and put him in the next block where the kindergarten was for fear he might get run over. Afraid he might get hit by an automobile. When he was in the first grade she did the same thing--in the second grade--third grade.
And she called on this minister and she said, "I don't understand why I'm so nervous and so upset all the time. I have just one boy, that's all I have to care. You have got all of these children, some how or other it just seems like nothing ever happens to them and you just live abundantly."
You know what he said to her? He said, "ma'am this is how we operate. We get them around the breakfast table. It's the only time we can get our whole family together. We get them all around the breakfast table and when we have them seated around the breakfast table I do the praying. Everybody's quiet, I pray. And I pray like this: `Lord here we are all together at breakfast; now Lord,' he said, `they're all going out to school and other places today. So what I'm going to do with this family Lord; I give them all to you right now. Amen.' Boy right after you give them to the Lord you say `amen' real quickly because you don't want to take them back." He relinquished them to the Lord. Literally, he just let go and let God and those children just did amiably.
About a year and a half or two later this son of this woman was coming home from school early once. Mother hadn't met him at the street across the block. He came home from school and they were living on a road where not more than three houses were located at the time. And when they came back from school that day the boy walked out in that street and got hit by an automobile and killed outright.
I went to the service of that boy and you know what the minister preached on? That God now had another rose petal in heaven. My God people! To think of it, that God Almighty, who created the heavens and the earth, that he should want to kill a little boy like that because God needed another rose petal in heaven. Oh my God when are we going to learn something? That's blasphemy!
Now you have the other half of this story. What should we say of the minister who said God now had a nother rose petal in heaven? I'd like to think, to put it in your own words:
how unloving, how cruel, how disgusting, i don't even have the words
I went to the service of that boy and you know what the minister preached on? That God now had another rose petal in heaven.
At this point, I don't believe that the said funeral occured, or the said minister existed. Nor that there was this particular woman with this particular son. Nor that there was the same street, with the perhaps three houses .. or the road, where the fictitious apparent "believed for " car came barrelling down to bring the demise to a fictitious boy, all due to the unbelief of the fictional mother..
No more than I believe the story of him going to some Jain convention in india, or receiving the keys to the city..
or that the vicster really invented the hookshot, the McDonald's concept, or got a legitimate doctorate..
You left out part of that account, yourself, WTH--the part that was actually being discussed!!
Nope, I didn't leave that part out. That part was already addressed.
"You know what killed that little boy!"
Trying to change the subject to the error of the minister at the funeral doesn't matter in this conversation.
Sure it matters, when comparing the two ministers in the story. But nothing in this story was changed. I just brought to the table the part that got left out. Both minisiters have it, but the mother doesn't. Did you catch it? I didn't think so. You were too busy being offended I guess.
Did that mother kill her son by her believing WTH???
What do you think? Here's a big hint. Contrast that mothers life and her frustrations with her one son and the life of the minister who has multiple children but is not frustrated and living abundantly. What do you see in that ministers life that is not in that mothers life? (It's a four letter word that begins with a "p" and end with a "y"). We also see the same thing in the minister at the funeral giving the euology, so we can't leave him completely out of the story. That minister has the same thing the first minister with the multiple children has, but he just has a different type.
What do I see in this fictitional ministers life in contrast to a normal mother?? It starts with a "D" and ends with a "L" and is often referred to as a *river in egypt*
Another word that describes the fictitious minister starts with a *O and ends with a "S"...as in OBLIVIOUS, as in choses to be unaware of the dangers threatening ones children.
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GarthP2000
Good one, Exie!
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excathedra
thanks garth
ps. billy sat next to me in class and when we came in on monday, sister clotilde had placed a HUGE BLACK CROSS on his desk
(that's just besides the point) although it does kinda' go with cruelty
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Eyesopen
Actually I think that is kinda creepy....
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excathedra
KINDA ???????????????????????????????????
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waysider
You want to know what killed that boy?
I'll tell you.
Some dumbaxe AC grad told him he was born of the wrong seed so he went and committed suicide!!
Sorry.
It still pizzes me off.
He was like a brother to me.
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excathedra
and so it should pizz you off !!!!!
just like my friend from the corps program we were in left a note saying "i wish i were the man i knew to be"
ugh i just hate some of this stuff
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WhiteDove
It would be creepier with a rosary...... :blink: :o
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GrouchoMarxJr
Perhaps the first thing that should be mentioned is that Wierwille was WRONG...his hocus pocus power of the mind teachings were fantasy and bullchit...
...and I think it underscores his total lack of empathy and compassion towards parents who had lost a child and parents in general. What an arrogant jerk he was.
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hiway29
That teaching is so clearly sick and wrong that I wonder at my blindness the 40 plus times I sat through that *^$%^#@ class.
And that's like in the first hour. What was the magic spell that got us to buy into that bozo ?
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Watered Garden
Just really something she would want to remember all her life.
Too bad the nun didn't have much of a heart. Flowers would have been wonderful, maybe with an object that represents his interests in life, i.e. a baseball or soccer ball, or musical instrument or something.
How sad for the children.
My son is all grown, sort of, and I still pray for him and concern myself with him every day.
WG
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TheHighWay
I think so many of us bought into it because A) we were young and single and had no clue what it felt like to be a parent or B) he did with this what he did with so many other "principles" he taught-- started with what is accepted Christian doctrine (your actions have consequences) and took it a step or two further to make us feel like we were receiving special insight.
We just wanted to know more than we knew, and went to the wrong source to find it.
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WhiteDove
Ok I gotta say this I don't often speak up in favor of the church, because I personally think it is a cult. But the heart statement bothered me somewhat. Having three aunts that were Sisters of Charity I have to say just like in the Way there are good and bad people in the Catholic Church. One thing to consider is that nuns take a vow of poverty they don't often have anything to give. My dad took care of his sisters needs often he used to give them money to get things they needed but they ended up giving it to the offerings, so he had my mom take them out when they would visit shopping for things they needed. It may be that she did not lack heart it may be that is all she had to give. I still think it is creepy none the less but I'm just saying...... I have to also consider that symbolic items are central to that religion she probably saw it as a thing of honor. I know growing up on special occasions we would get holy cards, rosaries and such from the aunts and after awhile I know they were not appreciated that much , I mean when you are a kid and you have fifty-two rosaries, the complete holy card collection volumes one through 12, and so many medals that it makes Mr. T's Bling look weak, it just wasn't that great. Once I got a really cool folding set of silverware for scouts, although someone forgot to mention that I was not in scouts. Anyway they gave what they had to give it's too bad they had to live that way while the Pope can only "touch" solid gold things. But that is the way cults go.......
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rascal
Oh God Ex, you have touched on the most damaging doctrine taught by that miserable sob.
The one time I ever really hurt my grandmother, the one time I really upset her to tears, was over this bull crap dogma.
I pompously announced that her son whom had died as a teenager of hodgkins disease did so because of his *believing.
As a mother now, I cringe at my arrogance and cruelty. To have watched a beloved son, struggle, suffer, and die ...to stand by unable to help as they faded away... to have to bury your sweet son....is unimaginable.
To have some punk 18 year old snot announce that it was all his fault, that if he had believed just a little harder...he`d a been fine.
It`s one of those things, the hurt in her eyes as she looked at me that will never go away.
I too have obsessed over my childrens safety, who they were with, were they chaperoned, self defense, diet, whatever was within my power to give them the greatest chance of survival since the day they were born.
It is called good parenting.
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Watered Garden
White Dove, I absolute did not mean to touch on any nerve or to generalize. When I lived in Charleston I worked at St. Francis Xavier Hospital which at that time was run by the Sisters of our Lady of Charity and Mercy and they were the kindest people on earth. I just thought a black cross was a little harsh. Perhaps it was in her culture or an important part of Church Doctrine, I don't know. Maybe it was indeed all she had. I just thought a little brighter memorial might have helped the kiddies. From the boy's age, he had already made his First Communion and would have been going to heaven, I would imagine.
WG
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WhiteDove
No nerve touched here WG I just thought maybe it was not a heart matter ,but a lack of substance matter maybe or perhaps she thought that was the best thing to do from her perspective.
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lindyhopper
Exactly. It is also called "parenting." If you don't worry and fear for your child to some degree, you are not normal.
The most obvious refutation of one of the stupidest doctrines in TWI is that there are actually children running around in the world!
Non of us would be here today, much less have been around for that idiotic class.
It gave an easy answer to those unanswerable hurt-filled "why" questions in life. To come down on the fear of a parent protecting and watching out for their kids is just lunacy.
You want to come down on parents, point the finger at those that DON'T care enough to be fearful and careful enough to watch out and protect their kids from the many time obvious dangers in the world that a normal parent worries about.
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lindyhopper
whoopsy
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Ham
and their greatest fear- many of them aren't constantly under threat of being whacked with a wooden spoon..
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What The Hey
OK, rant on if you want to, but here is fine example of people who only remember half a story (or the part they want to remember of it) and are offended by the part they remember. Here's the other half of that story from PFAL - the part most people don't rememeber (I placed that part in bolded text below - from PFAL):
---------------------------------------------------
Years ago I knew a minister whose wife had passed away and he had seven or eight children. I just do not recall how many children. About a year later he married another woman who had four or five of her own. And I suppose this gave it to them cheaper by the dozen, but I'm not sure. But they lived happily together.
And about a block and a half away lived a woman who had just one boy. And this woman who had just this one son was always frustrated, always nervous, always afraid. While this minister and his wife who had this whole bunch of children it just seemed like some how or another nothing ever happened to them. Oh they get a black eye once in awhile, somebody comes home with a bloody nose, but they just lived.
But this one woman with her one son, boy she was a nervous frustrated woman if you ever saw one. And week after week and month after month it got worse.
When her little boy started to kindergarten she used to walk him across the street and put him in the next block where the kindergarten was for fear he might get run over. Afraid he might get hit by an automobile. When he was in the first grade she did the same thing--in the second grade--third grade.
And she called on this minister and she said, "I don't understand why I'm so nervous and so upset all the time. I have just one boy, that's all I have to care. You have got all of these children, some how or other it just seems like nothing ever happens to them and you just live abundantly."
You know what he said to her? He said, "ma'am this is how we operate. We get them around the breakfast table. It's the only time we can get our whole family together. We get them all around the breakfast table and when we have them seated around the breakfast table I do the praying. Everybody's quiet, I pray. And I pray like this: `Lord here we are all together at breakfast; now Lord,' he said, `they're all going out to school and other places today. So what I'm going to do with this family Lord; I give them all to you right now. Amen.' Boy right after you give them to the Lord you say `amen' real quickly because you don't want to take them back." He relinquished them to the Lord. Literally, he just let go and let God and those children just did amiably.
About a year and a half or two later this son of this woman was coming home from school early once. Mother hadn't met him at the street across the block. He came home from school and they were living on a road where not more than three houses were located at the time. And when they came back from school that day the boy walked out in that street and got hit by an automobile and killed outright.
I went to the service of that boy and you know what the minister preached on? That God now had another rose petal in heaven. My God people! To think of it, that God Almighty, who created the heavens and the earth, that he should want to kill a little boy like that because God needed another rose petal in heaven. Oh my God when are we going to learn something? That's blasphemy!
--------------------------------------------------
Now you have the other half of this story. What should we say of the minister who said God now had a nother rose petal in heaven? I'd like to think, to put it in your own words:
how unloving, how cruel, how disgusting, i don't even have the words
--
okay thank you for letting me rant
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Bramble
You left out part of that account, yourself, WTH--the part that was actually being discussed!!
"You know what killed that little boy!"
Trying to change the subject to the error of the minister at the funeral doesn't matter in this conversation.
Did that mother kill her son by her believing WTH???
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Ham
At this point, I don't believe that the said funeral occured, or the said minister existed. Nor that there was this particular woman with this particular son. Nor that there was the same street, with the perhaps three houses .. or the road, where the fictitious apparent "believed for " car came barrelling down to bring the demise to a fictitious boy, all due to the unbelief of the fictional mother..
No more than I believe the story of him going to some Jain convention in india, or receiving the keys to the city..
or that the vicster really invented the hookshot, the McDonald's concept, or got a legitimate doctorate..
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What The Hey
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rascal
What do I see in this fictitional ministers life in contrast to a normal mother?? It starts with a "D" and ends with a "L" and is often referred to as a *river in egypt*
Another word that describes the fictitious minister starts with a *O and ends with a "S"...as in OBLIVIOUS, as in choses to be unaware of the dangers threatening ones children.
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cheranne
i don't understand why people so upset about placing a cross on a grave site or a star of david for that
matter,if that is what you believe...so what even if its a holy spirit dove or like in the movie Toys an elephant
made to blow bubbles!
Ever been to Arlinton cemetary or seen crosses on the side of highway crash sites,i just think it remins us
how precious life is
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