there was a minister here, in one of the local mainstream churches. He was smart, charismatic.. really could move people..
they found out he was a womanizer. Documented of course.. so as a board, what do you do? Sweep in under the rug so as to not lose membership.. or threaten the victims to keep silence.. tell the church that they were possessed? Put him in charge of RESEARCH?
The guy was OUT inside of a week. No notice. I was impressed. Oh.. the church didn't lose "the truth as it hath not been know since Martin Luther" either.
those who "came after" him don't adore his name, or reference their sermons to his material.. or praise his name from the pulpit.
some people actually take their beliefs and ethics rather seriously.
One thing I can say for them.. they knew how to take the trash out..
Why would one hold a plagiarizing, arrogant, self-serving, womanizing, adulterant, mean, power hungry, drambuie sucking, self-worshipping, falatial scoundrel (forgive me if I left anything out), as an example of the merits of redemption..
It would make more sense to hoist the name of P.T. Barnum on one's banner..
by his own admission, he was only arrogant and self-serving.
at least he was honest about his scams, for the most part.. and still made a fortune.
Instead of posting a bunch of stuff and derailing yet another thread, I figured resurrecting this might be a little more appropriate and easier..
If one is on some kind of crusade, or "witnessing" campaign.. who should one choose to exemplify the "benefits" of what one claims- who should be the "poster child"?
would one choose:
Capone, the model citiizen, and advocate against violent crime, mayhem, and racketeering..
Jeffrey Dahmer, Chef Extraordinaire, and nutrition expert for the advancement of proper diets for all Americans..
then there's the victard..
model "minister" and family man, an example of intellectual honesty, self-control, and sexual morality for menogawd everywhere..
It looks like what ended up happening in TWI was far from the "ideal" that was taught in PFAL of a church where with love and integrity the whole body of believers contributes to making things better. Right in PFAL Dr. Wierwille invites us to prove the doctrine.
But what ended up happening was nasty and ugly in terms that I can not even look at without wincing.
In my heart I hold on to the idea of "The Way" as it should have or could have been. It is a sad thing to hold on to. But in spite of how ugly things were for people in their own experiences with TWI I can understand why folks who learned how to understand the Bible in TWI as I did remember good and honest people like the recent sharing by Ralph D. proves that their was in TWI leadership.
In spite of how you make a good point about the wicked hypocrisy I just don't have it in me to speak about it like you do here.
It isn't limited to TWI. Too many churches and religions today have found it "necessary" to sweep things under the rug to keep the appearance that "all is well." But guess what? Eventually it gets found out. Look at the Catholic Church with the molestations that were happening for years, getting swept under the rug until someone finally speaks up. Now the whole church is in a frenzy over it. Yes, we are human. Yes, we screw up (I do quite often). Yes, God forgives, but the point is that we must admit our sins and truly be sorry for what we have done! If you don't, then you're only fooling yourself, because God isn't fooled.
I think that's the whole point. It seems to me, that those in charge would appear a lot more innocent of wrong doing if they dealt with these monsters APPROPRIATELY before it is "found out". The laws of probability suggest that it WILL be found out. Sometimes a lot sooner than one would anticipate.
loy should have been sent packing.. the FIRST TIME they knew about his predatory nature, abusing his position in the organization That would have been what.. about 1981 or 1982 or therabouts? Maybe even before.
They have to put a lot more spin to it after the fact, once it gets out.
"Dear beloved in the Lord, it is with much regret we must announce the canning of the loyster. We have irrefutable evidence of his sexual escapades, and to protect the people in this organization, we have removed him from all postions of authority and sent him packing.."
or even vic.. the then "trustees" could have voted him off, could they not?
the first time he or howie laid a greasy hand on a sister in the organization, they lost it all, to begin with..
I agree that too many religious organizations sweep it under the carpet...and yes, eventually, it all comes out.
An interesting observation...the more authoritative the organization, the more likely they are to sweep it under the carpet. Twi was spouting off thet they were the ONLY ones with the right answers..."God's true ministry"...it then becomes difficult for them to admit "they were wrong"...it undermines their self-proclaimed authority as God's spokesmen...same is true of the catholic church.
...on the other, a church that is truly humble and doesn't elevate themselves and trusts in God rather than men...they seem to have an easier time dealing with these problems in an open and honest way...they immediately send the guy packing.
In my heart I hold on to the idea of "The Way" as it should have or could have been.
This is a common sentiment of may former twi followers. I felt it myself for a while. It was not easy to face my dream's disintegration. But indeed, it was my dream. I had not understood the assumptions on which vpw built his ministry. IMO, the system was a closed one from the beginning. He based it on the "truth" that the Bible was perfect and it was God's Word [he said Rosalind Rinker convinced him of that. Info on her is available on the Internet].
As DontWorryBeHappy so aptly depicted in the current tread "what does scripture refer to," vpw's "WORD" theology was not solid rock.
The bigger context of a group like twi is Fundamentalism/Evangelicalism which does not leave any wiggle room for questions like we've been asking over in that post. In general, they are in the catagory of what's known as textual and historical criticism which is NOT ALLOWED. Why? Those questions undercut the assumptions of people like vpw who clung to (out of fear in my opinion) the belief that the Bible has to be perfect and the only truth in the universe in order to make life worth living.
Seems to me people found life worth living for YEARS before the Bible was around.
The sad part for me was that "The Way" said it was a ministry devoted to research. In the early 1970s, vp claimed that if "we" learned more, we would teach it, that if "we" discovered that "we" were wrong in something we taught, we could change as "we" learned new things in research.
But he seems to have had an agenda different than those words I heard.
PFAL was, as someone said on gsc recently, the money maker and that couldn't be recalled, like defective tires by Firestone.
I think that's the whole point. It seems to me, that those in charge would appear a lot more innocent of wrong doing if they dealt with these monsters APPROPRIATELY before it is "found out". The laws of probability suggest that it WILL be found out. Sometimes a lot sooner than one would anticipate.
I think is exactly what happened when old vic was kicked out of and removed from the Van Wert church after impregnating his secretary.
Well, I think vic, being the sly dog (wolf) that he was, decided whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
At that point he probably made up his mind that he'd never let that happen again.
When he was successful in getting some of his former parisheners to follow him, he had the formula for success, he was able to pass himself off as a legitimate pastor, all the while being a low down dirty wolf in sheeps clothing.
He also sniffed out complicent men like Ho-ward, Ermal and of course, his brother Hairy, as being men who would either tolerate his indisgresions, liked money, or were men of the same perverted cast, and set them up as trustees as his insulation against anyone who willed to expose him or depose him durring the twi years. Maybe he was delusional enough to think it would work, I also think his ego had no bounds.
Aparrently you CAN fool some of the people some or most of the time....
Wasn't the Van Wert church the one he referenced in der vey living in lust? His side of the story seemed to be that when after his *greatness* left the church, that *they* had a successful work plowed under inside of six months or something..
no mention of his actions or accepting any kind of personal accountability or anything.
then we get what I believe to be another display of arrogance.. "looking back, I just know *I* shoulda taken the congregation with me.."
Perhaps he was forced to make as a discrete exit as he could.
I wonder how many of the old congregation are still alive.. have any of them documented what it was like?
Why would one hold a plagiarizing, arrogant, self-serving, womanizing, adulterant, mean, power hungry, drambuie sucking, self-worshipping, falatial scoundrel (forgive me if I left anything out), as an example of the merits of redemption..
It seems The Way Living in Love did a lot to paint the image of some magical kingdom, or a merry old land of Oz. That whimsical story telling was really a dream ... not a reality. Except the wizard of Oz was a fraud, but basically good ... whereas vp had the traits you listed.
It seems those that still follow and revere "his" foundational principles have not learned much. They are willing to overlook his "few indiscretions" and to hold onto da wuhrd. But I'm thinking they are really still clinging to some notion that they are something special ... that they are better than other Christians ... that maybe vp was MOGFOT. They are still trying to hold to The Way Living in Love fairy tale.
Of course that is more comfortable to dream, than to accept that we were duped by "a plagiarizing, arrogant, self-serving, womanizing, adulterant, mean, power hungry, drambuie sucking, self-worshipping, falatial scoundrel (forgive me if I left anything out)". vpw wanted followers of him ... and some are still following The Way of vpw. :o
I wonder how many of the old congregation are still alive.. have any of them documented what it was like?
The ones I know of were Ermal Dorothy Owens, Harry's wife Emogene?, the George's, Mal and Jan, Howard and Mrs Allen, I'm not sure who else. Any of them, especially the wives, who lived at HQ would have found out eventually what the real story was even if they didn't when they first moved there.
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Ham
No replies, yet?
there was a minister here, in one of the local mainstream churches. He was smart, charismatic.. really could move people..
they found out he was a womanizer. Documented of course.. so as a board, what do you do? Sweep in under the rug so as to not lose membership.. or threaten the victims to keep silence.. tell the church that they were possessed? Put him in charge of RESEARCH?
The guy was OUT inside of a week. No notice. I was impressed. Oh.. the church didn't lose "the truth as it hath not been know since Martin Luther" either.
those who "came after" him don't adore his name, or reference their sermons to his material.. or praise his name from the pulpit.
some people actually take their beliefs and ethics rather seriously.
One thing I can say for them.. they knew how to take the trash out..
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Ham
wow.. no replies..
have I been a baaad Squirrel today?
*checks armpits*
*sniff*
I guess I did take a bath this morning..
maybe nothing more needs to really be said..
:)
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excathedra
i thought this was a song title :)
i'm always into trashing religion, mine or anyone else's
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Ham
It would make more sense to hoist the name of P.T. Barnum on one's banner..
by his own admission, he was only arrogant and self-serving.
at least he was honest about his scams, for the most part.. and still made a fortune.
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cheranne
me too.i thought it was a song but that was losing my religon!
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Ham
Instead of posting a bunch of stuff and derailing yet another thread, I figured resurrecting this might be a little more appropriate and easier..
If one is on some kind of crusade, or "witnessing" campaign.. who should one choose to exemplify the "benefits" of what one claims- who should be the "poster child"?
would one choose:
Capone, the model citiizen, and advocate against violent crime, mayhem, and racketeering..
Jeffrey Dahmer, Chef Extraordinaire, and nutrition expert for the advancement of proper diets for all Americans..
then there's the victard..
model "minister" and family man, an example of intellectual honesty, self-control, and sexual morality for menogawd everywhere..
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brideofjc
Here, Ham, just for you: you looked like you could use one....ENJOY!
MAKE SURE YOU CLICK IT TO FULL SIZE!
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JeffSjo
For me Ham,
It looks like what ended up happening in TWI was far from the "ideal" that was taught in PFAL of a church where with love and integrity the whole body of believers contributes to making things better. Right in PFAL Dr. Wierwille invites us to prove the doctrine.
But what ended up happening was nasty and ugly in terms that I can not even look at without wincing.
In my heart I hold on to the idea of "The Way" as it should have or could have been. It is a sad thing to hold on to. But in spite of how ugly things were for people in their own experiences with TWI I can understand why folks who learned how to understand the Bible in TWI as I did remember good and honest people like the recent sharing by Ralph D. proves that their was in TWI leadership.
In spite of how you make a good point about the wicked hypocrisy I just don't have it in me to speak about it like you do here.
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Ham
Bride, now that's just what I needed..
*ah, ooh, a little lower.. no, up a half an inch.. ahhhhhh.."
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brideofjc
Yur Velcome! Jeff didn't like it, though!
Like doc always said, "You can read a letter, but it might not be addressed to you!"
Jeff's letter was transferance, he did like that one!
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JeffSjo
Actually as to the picture in question, projection bias was a bigger factor in the picture for me.
Transferance has to do with the topic at hand though. It's a lot bigger than needing a backscratching. LOL
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hmh
It isn't limited to TWI. Too many churches and religions today have found it "necessary" to sweep things under the rug to keep the appearance that "all is well." But guess what? Eventually it gets found out. Look at the Catholic Church with the molestations that were happening for years, getting swept under the rug until someone finally speaks up. Now the whole church is in a frenzy over it. Yes, we are human. Yes, we screw up (I do quite often). Yes, God forgives, but the point is that we must admit our sins and truly be sorry for what we have done! If you don't, then you're only fooling yourself, because God isn't fooled.
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Ham
I think that's the whole point. It seems to me, that those in charge would appear a lot more innocent of wrong doing if they dealt with these monsters APPROPRIATELY before it is "found out". The laws of probability suggest that it WILL be found out. Sometimes a lot sooner than one would anticipate.
loy should have been sent packing.. the FIRST TIME they knew about his predatory nature, abusing his position in the organization That would have been what.. about 1981 or 1982 or therabouts? Maybe even before.
They have to put a lot more spin to it after the fact, once it gets out.
"Dear beloved in the Lord, it is with much regret we must announce the canning of the loyster. We have irrefutable evidence of his sexual escapades, and to protect the people in this organization, we have removed him from all postions of authority and sent him packing.."
or even vic.. the then "trustees" could have voted him off, could they not?
the first time he or howie laid a greasy hand on a sister in the organization, they lost it all, to begin with..
the organization is really bankrupt..
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GrouchoMarxJr
I agree that too many religious organizations sweep it under the carpet...and yes, eventually, it all comes out.
An interesting observation...the more authoritative the organization, the more likely they are to sweep it under the carpet. Twi was spouting off thet they were the ONLY ones with the right answers..."God's true ministry"...it then becomes difficult for them to admit "they were wrong"...it undermines their self-proclaimed authority as God's spokesmen...same is true of the catholic church.
...on the other, a church that is truly humble and doesn't elevate themselves and trusts in God rather than men...they seem to have an easier time dealing with these problems in an open and honest way...they immediately send the guy packing.
...I think there's a lesson in this somewhere.
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penworks
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now I see
I think is exactly what happened when old vic was kicked out of and removed from the Van Wert church after impregnating his secretary.
Well, I think vic, being the sly dog (wolf) that he was, decided whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
At that point he probably made up his mind that he'd never let that happen again.
When he was successful in getting some of his former parisheners to follow him, he had the formula for success, he was able to pass himself off as a legitimate pastor, all the while being a low down dirty wolf in sheeps clothing.
He also sniffed out complicent men like Ho-ward, Ermal and of course, his brother Hairy, as being men who would either tolerate his indisgresions, liked money, or were men of the same perverted cast, and set them up as trustees as his insulation against anyone who willed to expose him or depose him durring the twi years. Maybe he was delusional enough to think it would work, I also think his ego had no bounds.
Aparrently you CAN fool some of the people some or most of the time....
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Ham
Wasn't the Van Wert church the one he referenced in der vey living in lust? His side of the story seemed to be that when after his *greatness* left the church, that *they* had a successful work plowed under inside of six months or something..
no mention of his actions or accepting any kind of personal accountability or anything.
then we get what I believe to be another display of arrogance.. "looking back, I just know *I* shoulda taken the congregation with me.."
Perhaps he was forced to make as a discrete exit as he could.
I wonder how many of the old congregation are still alive.. have any of them documented what it was like?
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rhino
It seems The Way Living in Love did a lot to paint the image of some magical kingdom, or a merry old land of Oz. That whimsical story telling was really a dream ... not a reality. Except the wizard of Oz was a fraud, but basically good ... whereas vp had the traits you listed.
It seems those that still follow and revere "his" foundational principles have not learned much. They are willing to overlook his "few indiscretions" and to hold onto da wuhrd. But I'm thinking they are really still clinging to some notion that they are something special ... that they are better than other Christians ... that maybe vp was MOGFOT. They are still trying to hold to The Way Living in Love fairy tale.
Of course that is more comfortable to dream, than to accept that we were duped by "a plagiarizing, arrogant, self-serving, womanizing, adulterant, mean, power hungry, drambuie sucking, self-worshipping, falatial scoundrel (forgive me if I left anything out)". vpw wanted followers of him ... and some are still following The Way of vpw. :o
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now I see
The ones I know of were Ermal Dorothy Owens, Harry's wife Emogene?, the George's, Mal and Jan, Howard and Mrs Allen, I'm not sure who else. Any of them, especially the wives, who lived at HQ would have found out eventually what the real story was even if they didn't when they first moved there.
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