OM, would this also include accepting all that Jesus taught?
Not trying to set you up, but just to point that out also.
As well as being shown by the spirit what he was talking about.
Cman,
What do you mean by "accepting"? By accepting, do you mean "doing"? Well I do think Christians should try to do all that Jesus said to do, the biggest among those is "love God with all your heart, soul mind and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself". HOWEVER, I do not believe in salvation by works. I believe it's solely by the grace of God through faith alone.
Oldies - That's a mighty nice description of your belief of what it means to say Jesus is Lord! Thank you.
<---i wish there was one without the angry look... ^_^
maybe a reminder for all of us...i think it helps any conversation to somehow express our opinions on matters of faith and scriptural interpretation as our point of view
or otherwise soften the expression as a way to aknowledge our truer position on such subjective matters
...seems to make us more likely to be "heard" ...as well as read
and ...cuz absolute statements are always wrong... ;)
...
and just so you know, OM
ive read your reaction to my comments...and am familiar with your opinions and communication styles
but im not even sure how to respond in kind without entering all these cycles of endless circular misunderstandings
...which is something i certainly have no interest in or energy for
so unless you can polish your communication skills when reacting to my words
please take my silence towards you merely as my attempt to be practical
...
back to topic...
i'm curious as to whether anyone else has looked into the important distinctions between conception and birth as it relates to being "born again"
Jesus seemed quite clear that one can only understand rebirth in light of birth
and if so...not only might that present questions such as "what is the nature of spiritual gestation?"
but what does that say about the oft-overlooked and strongly avoided feminine face of the divine?
is it not a mother who is the all encompassing one during pregancy?
and is it not the mother who is the comforter who comes immediately after birth?
from what i have come to understand
wisdom from above = a descending (like a dove)...and "sophia" is feminine
...the baptism of a passive, witnessing, accepting, gracious, spacious kind of insight and love
not the aggressive, seeking, hunting, climbing, digging, building, possessive kind of love
and as Jesus said...that he had just come from the masculine divine
...but a father's role in conception is quite small and brief and blissful... and any dolt could do that
and his role during gestation through infancy is mostly indirect ...and about supporting the mother
and a child's very crucial early development is in the hands of mother until some sort of rites of passage in the early teens
...but remember, i am referring to rebirth
where the reintroduction of the role of masculine divine may not come til long after one is "born again"
and may most likely look nothing at all like the patriarchal christian brotherhoods and fatherhoods of TWI and ilk
as if we are born again to be more than "conquerers of the world"
where the world we conquer is at first the terror of yet another birth canal
and we are born as infants all over again into the bosom of a wise comforter
as I give you a quote from something I wrote in my book "Dying Peaceful without Fear of that day" chapter 15
Planting the seed of an idea of Jesus Christ!
Once you have made up your mind to give God a change, you will have to fill your mind with a basic of what God’s love is and who Jesus the Christ was. There are books on the subject like the bible, and there is a church everywhere you look.
The first thing you must have, is an idea of what God wants you to do, and who Jesus Christ was and what he did for us. In the book of Romans we find a verse that gives us an idea of where we can begin.
Romans 10:9-10 “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”
A Confession is an outward action to show the world you have made Jesus the Christ Lord in your life. This confession is more than a one time set of words spoken, but it is a way of life that you take action to live by.
To believe that Jesus the Christ dies and rose up from the grave, one must make a fact in their heart that the stories they have read about Jesus Christ dying and risen back up after three days and nights are true. This must become a fact in your heart where no one controls, but you.
Once these two things have happened to the point above the seed of Christ has been planted and you have received the gift of holy spirit. This action can be called the baptized of the holy spirit and the making up your mind could be called baptized with water.
Now some think you will have to be dip in water, but I say the same water that is in a body of water is in the air. So as long as something was done to get you ready to make up your mind to receive Christ into your life.
Now having a church service to show the world of your wishes can be done anytime, but there no law on how to show the world Christ is your Lord and you know he got up. The point is water is needed to cleanse you from sin to get the flesh ready too received the image of Christ, who is in the image of God.
The way water is used in the picture doesn’t matter to, whether it is a body of water, the water in the air, or your tears as you commit your life to God. The how is not as important as the decision to commit to it.
The key here is that the person reads enough to build faith, which equals the seed of Christ being fertilized by believing. The egg or seed planted is the gift of holy spirit and the egg is fertilized by the believing.
I am not saying you have to believe as I have, or put things together the way I have, but you will have to make Jesus Christ Lord in your life and believe he rose from the dead. Nor am I saying you have to go to a church for help.
it may add to the seed -v- born subject
but as to VPW I have no answer but he made a mess of things
btw...i do not equate "rebirth" with "having eternal life" or "living forever"
so if i said i dont think VPW was born again...that is not a comment about his current or future state
...
but a reason i feel VPW's kind of doctrine did not lend towards any sense of authentic rebirth (including his own)
is because of the masculine-only and masculine dominated nature of TWI ...in doctrine and practice
i would even consider that to be at a stage of spiritual pre-conception
...like where all the single-minded little spermie-boys are fighting each other to escape destruction
it seems to me that VPW mixed conception with birth ... limiting his "new birth" analogies to seed being planted
and saying that the "new birth" is something that happens inside in an instant
i dunno...sounds more like conception to me
ask any mother who has given birth if it was a sudden inside job ... like a seed being planted
...
and if an organization is institutionalizing a pre-mature masculine-only club...
seems it would put a tight lid on any higher development (even something as early as conception would be higher)
...kinda like putting on a condom on God the father
btw...i am not talking about gender issues only...though they are involved
but teaching women leaders to act like abusive male leaders certainly sounds like making women "do that which is unseemly"
and rejecting the feminine voice certainly sounds like male-on-male spirituallity (which is listed with (and causes) war, slavery, etc...)
my point...its not hard to spot a unhealthy masculine-only spirituallity (look for possessiveness, control, paranoia, competition, illness, greed, etc..)
and not hard to see how the denial of the feminine nature of Spirit leads to the obliviousness to the value of feminine spirituality
which leads to resistance to the role of both womb and motherhood in the spiritual life
again...not talking about actual wombs and mothers...but their role in becoming "born again"
I think your analysis over complicates a very simple promise in the Word. Remember the word is so simple "a fool need not err therein". It is simple faith. When faith is lacking, it gets complicated.
My reading of John Chapter 3 is very simple, and summed up in verse 16 "for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosover believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life". That's how to get born again. Its a very simple truth.
I'm not sure "adding the stage of seed" would help simplify matters and make it more logical, but feel free to communicate your thoughts.
I think you summed things up pretty good in your book:
The first thing you must have, is an idea of what God wants you to do, and who Jesus Christ was and what he did for us. In the book of Romans we find a verse that gives us an idea of where we can begin.
Romans 10:9-10 “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”
A Confession is an outward action to show the world you have made Jesus the Christ Lord in your life. This confession is more than a one time set of words spoken, but it is a way of life that you take action to live by.
To believe that Jesus the Christ dies and rose up from the grave, one must make a fact in their heart that the stories they have read about Jesus Christ dying and risen back up after three days and nights are true. This must become a fact in your heart where no one controls, but you.
Once these two things have happened to the point above the seed of Christ has been planted and you have received the gift of holy spirit.
With regard to Wierwille's "born again" status, my opinion is that any god who would withhold "salvation" from a person who lives a "Chist-like" life, yet somehow misses out on "believing and confessing" the formula due to any number of possible reasons and awards it to someone nominally "born again" who lies, cheats, rapes and abuses his "flock" is an unjust god.
Oakspear, I believe when one rejects Christ, they are rejecting God's redemptive plan for themselves and mankind. Jesus is the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Doesn't matter how "good" we are or appear to be or live, we are still sinners. Every one of us.
Yup, I know you do, as many people here at GS do.
But folks are not living a Christ-like life anyway who wilfully reject him, no matter how good they think they are and how many good works they think they do.
I doubt that you, me, or anyone else could find any meaningful difference among the actions and lifestyle of Christians, Buddhists, Humanists or any other belief system.
I know it sounds a bit narrow, but there's only one Messiah to go around.
Sure it sounds narrow, but you're entitled to that point of view.
Folks are not saved by good works.
No, but the good works sure make them more pleasant to be around
Besides why would any devout, honorable person who does good works want to wilfully reject Christ's messianic mission?
Because they don't believe that it's true perhaps?
I think he said that true SIT can't be counterfeited, and that makes sense. If a person knowingly fakes SIT, they know they are faking. If the same person knowingly SIT with a sincere belief in the heart, that is not faking. That is SIT to that person. Like a lot of stuff in the bible, it is an act of faith and belief. Anybody can say SIT is nonsense and many christians do. But at that point in PFAL when we asked God to manifest holy spirit, that was real. The born again experience we had, was real. Asking God to help us manifest the gift is real. Now, if someone says many years later that they were faking it, then I have to take them at their word. But it wouldn't negate anyone elses experience.
Me too.
Oklahoma, please clarify your belief about whether or not someone can be saved if they don't believe that Jesus is God. Thanks.
sorry,i've been away at Hershey childrens hospital with my grandson,he is out now and better.
It really doesn't matter what I personally think or don't think only God knows the heart of a person and i am unqualified to make
a statement on the saved position,..i believe i have always been a wondering person concerning spiritual things,my choice is
The fact vic could speak something that sounded like Swahili or something really doesn't impress me any more. The mere fact that we needed practice sessions would suggest to me that the experience was largely contrived.
I read der vey living in lust before I took pfal.. I remembered vic's description of how when it "really came" it was like fire.. so fluent, speaking in more than one tongue.. and by session twelve, he seemed to have enough trouble spitting out a half dozen words or so. I thought.. what's THIS? What happened to the fire, and fluency I read about.. It seemed so contrived at the time.
The coordinator prancing about, tears in his eyes over the "greatness" of it all..
I went along with the "gag".. by session twelve there didn't seem to be any turning back.
all that teaching.. how vic's version of sit was "proof beyond a shadow of a doubt" of supposedly what is the "new birth"..
I think we were slowly trained to scam ourselves.. I heard an old branch coordinator call people "low maintenance believers". Just hold our own leash, keep speaking in tongues hours on end, when in "twig" listen to what the voice of God (the ramblings of another "low maintenence believer"), keep yourself convinced that you've got the greatest goods since the earth cooled, keep putting fifteen percent or so in the horn.. show up to meetings five minutes early.. run classes.. keep trying to rake people in..
So, I cast my vote once more, if that's legal here Bow.. "no, I do not think he was born again". At least by vic's requirements. Or definition.
I just don't think someone could experience something supposedly so significant, and just go back to living life worse than before. I asked the same thing of a friend I knew back then.. "if you're so this and that.. how comes ya don't live any better than that bum down the street.."
The answer? "Don't you DARE touch MY righteousnesss.." sheesh.. I'm not touching it, you're doing it to youself.. providing you have it to begin with.
Hi Bowtie. Regarding your question of Judas, I do not believe he was "born again."
The Bible is quite clear in calling him the man of perdition. If you read Peter in Acts, he is quite clear when he says Judas has no place with them. Peter does not hide what he thinks of Judas.
I believe Christ knew when he called him to follow him, who he was and what his role would be, the one fitted for Perdition - destruction.
Yet, what I find incredible, is even then, Christ treats him as his closest friend when he hands him the sop. He trusts him with their money. What this shows me is that, even after offering his love and friendship to Judas, it shows me that a man's nature - one who does not love God - even if Christ were to be with him in the flesh, if he does not accept Christ as Messiah/Savior, he cannot be forced to believe, his nature cannot be changed, and God will not overstep the man's free will. Man's nature is still enmity with God. Judas after being with Christ (Emmanuel - God with us) still did not accept him, nor his love.
There are times when Satan, faced with a monumental and pivotal task that must be done right to accomplish his will, will do something himself, such as when he tempted Christ in the wilderness and Adam and Eve in the Garden. Satan, in order to get the ball rolling for Christ to be killed, thought this so important, that he entered into Judas. He entered into Judas.
The only other person Satan will ever enter into in the Word is yet to come - the Antichrist.
So, to me, there were only two men ever entered into by Satan in the Word - Judas and Antichrist.
Thus, I personally do not think Judas was ever then or now, born again. But that is just my opinion. :)
I don't know if I'm doing this right. I've never posted on here, but technically, none of them were born again because it was before the Day of Pentecost when The Lord poured out holy spirit. Judas committed suicide some time before Pentecost. Hope I did this right.
It has taken me a life time to try to learn who Jesus christ is to me and to my life.
I do not weigh these days Im living as much as the PROMISE of eternal life in a kingdom with Jesus and God.
that is the plan of what god did when he raised Jesus to be the christ of mankind He saved us not from this world but for the one to come.
do I think christians can and do make a difference in this time?
yes I also believe it to be true of all of God's creation because i believe they Jesus christ and god are in our life to stay in everyones life for our good
I don't know if I'm doing this right. I've never posted on here, but technically, none of them were born again because it was before the Day of Pentecost when The Lord poured out holy spirit. Judas committed suicide some time before Pentecost. Hope I did this right.
First of all, I don't really begin to assume what is in another person's heart, but I think it's possible he was born again.
What happended with VPW was not all that new or shocking. If you read the word there were more than a few men of God who fell HARD. Like, Saul, Solomon, Eli, even David. Now I'm not suggesting VP is even in the same league with any of them, but it happens. And has all through history. A person starts out with good intentions, getting it right, then majorly blows it at some point along the way.
IMO. there were some good, accurate things about the Way, and some bad, totally wrong things about it.
I think it's particularly hard as believers to accept that a leader we looked up to and trusted could screw up and dissapoint us so much. But, the good news about it is that we learn the lesson of not looking to a man to think & feel for us. But that we look to God to lead us.
I know some people on Greasespot don't even believe in God or Jesus anymore because of being burned by the Way and that makes me sad. But, for those who do, we can take a great lesson away from it. I have learned to never let any person take the place of God in my life again.
As far as VPW, I'll let God sort that one out. I don't know if he was screwed up from the beginning or just lost it along the way somewhere. The problem is he influenced so many other people and either way he will have to account for that to God.
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bowtwi
Oldies - That's a mighty nice description of your belief of what it means to say Jesus is Lord! Thank you.
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oldiesman
Cman,
What do you mean by "accepting"? By accepting, do you mean "doing"? Well I do think Christians should try to do all that Jesus said to do, the biggest among those is "love God with all your heart, soul mind and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself". HOWEVER, I do not believe in salvation by works. I believe it's solely by the grace of God through faith alone.
Thanks bowtwi.
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Sunesis
Jesus Christ Oldies! This is pathetic, even for you - that you sit here and defend VP beating his pet.
This is absolutely pathetic how far and how low you will go to defend your idol.
Hey, its ok to beat your pets folks.
This is really low, even for you.
It is disgusting. Have you no friggin' heart???!!!!
You are a fine example of MOG worship at it finest and most degraded.
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sirguessalot
maybe a reminder for all of us...i think it helps any conversation to somehow express our opinions on matters of faith and scriptural interpretation as our point of view
or otherwise soften the expression as a way to aknowledge our truer position on such subjective matters
...seems to make us more likely to be "heard" ...as well as read
and ...cuz absolute statements are always wrong... ;)
...
and just so you know, OM
ive read your reaction to my comments...and am familiar with your opinions and communication styles
but im not even sure how to respond in kind without entering all these cycles of endless circular misunderstandings
...which is something i certainly have no interest in or energy for
so unless you can polish your communication skills when reacting to my words
please take my silence towards you merely as my attempt to be practical
...
back to topic...
i'm curious as to whether anyone else has looked into the important distinctions between conception and birth as it relates to being "born again"
Jesus seemed quite clear that one can only understand rebirth in light of birth
and if so...not only might that present questions such as "what is the nature of spiritual gestation?"
but what does that say about the oft-overlooked and strongly avoided feminine face of the divine?
is it not a mother who is the all encompassing one during pregancy?
and is it not the mother who is the comforter who comes immediately after birth?
from what i have come to understand
wisdom from above = a descending (like a dove)...and "sophia" is feminine
...the baptism of a passive, witnessing, accepting, gracious, spacious kind of insight and love
not the aggressive, seeking, hunting, climbing, digging, building, possessive kind of love
and as Jesus said...that he had just come from the masculine divine
...but a father's role in conception is quite small and brief and blissful... and any dolt could do that
and his role during gestation through infancy is mostly indirect ...and about supporting the mother
and a child's very crucial early development is in the hands of mother until some sort of rites of passage in the early teens
...but remember, i am referring to rebirth
where the reintroduction of the role of masculine divine may not come til long after one is "born again"
and may most likely look nothing at all like the patriarchal christian brotherhoods and fatherhoods of TWI and ilk
as if we are born again to be more than "conquerers of the world"
where the world we conquer is at first the terror of yet another birth canal
and we are born as infants all over again into the bosom of a wise comforter
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waysider
Well there you have it, folks.
VeePee SAID it couldn't be faked so that settles it.
After all, VeePee wouldn't lie, now would he?
Hmmmm?--- Now where is that scripture reference that says it can't be faked?
Oh--- I forgot, we just have to "trust" him.
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year2027
God first
Beloved All
God loves you all my dear friends
let me ring a bell
as I give you a quote from something I wrote in my book "Dying Peaceful without Fear of that day" chapter 15
it may add to the seed -v- born subject
but as to VPW I have no answer but he made a mess of things
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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sirguessalot
btw...i do not equate "rebirth" with "having eternal life" or "living forever"
so if i said i dont think VPW was born again...that is not a comment about his current or future state
...
but a reason i feel VPW's kind of doctrine did not lend towards any sense of authentic rebirth (including his own)
is because of the masculine-only and masculine dominated nature of TWI ...in doctrine and practice
i would even consider that to be at a stage of spiritual pre-conception
...like where all the single-minded little spermie-boys are fighting each other to escape destruction
it seems to me that VPW mixed conception with birth ... limiting his "new birth" analogies to seed being planted
and saying that the "new birth" is something that happens inside in an instant
i dunno...sounds more like conception to me
ask any mother who has given birth if it was a sudden inside job ... like a seed being planted
...
and if an organization is institutionalizing a pre-mature masculine-only club...
seems it would put a tight lid on any higher development (even something as early as conception would be higher)
...kinda like putting on a condom on God the father
btw...i am not talking about gender issues only...though they are involved
but teaching women leaders to act like abusive male leaders certainly sounds like making women "do that which is unseemly"
and rejecting the feminine voice certainly sounds like male-on-male spirituallity (which is listed with (and causes) war, slavery, etc...)
my point...its not hard to spot a unhealthy masculine-only spirituallity (look for possessiveness, control, paranoia, competition, illness, greed, etc..)
and not hard to see how the denial of the feminine nature of Spirit leads to the obliviousness to the value of feminine spirituality
which leads to resistance to the role of both womb and motherhood in the spiritual life
again...not talking about actual wombs and mothers...but their role in becoming "born again"
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oldiesman
Sirguessalot,
I think your analysis over complicates a very simple promise in the Word. Remember the word is so simple "a fool need not err therein". It is simple faith. When faith is lacking, it gets complicated.
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year2027
God first
Beloved oldiesman
God loves you all my dear friend
how would beginning at the beginning complicate things?
Jesus Christ spend hours teaching us about him planting seeds did he not
does not adding the stage of seed make things more simple and more logical?
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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oldiesman
Hi Roy,
God loves you too.
My reading of John Chapter 3 is very simple, and summed up in verse 16 "for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosover believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life". That's how to get born again. Its a very simple truth.
I'm not sure "adding the stage of seed" would help simplify matters and make it more logical, but feel free to communicate your thoughts.
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oldiesman
Roy,
I think you summed things up pretty good in your book:
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year2027
God first
Beloved oldiesman
God loves you all my dear friend
thanks for reminded that God loves me too I need to hear it now and then
John 3:16 would not changed if Christ came to plant seeds and the birth comes later we still need both in my eyes
but I am not here to change you just to give you reasons to think on these things more
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
ps I guess we were written the same time and it blesses me that you think I summed things up pretty good in my book
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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cman
No oldies not of your works that's for sure.
It is the work of Christ.
Of many that have gone before you.
And have testified openly to deaf ears.
It is the work of the spirit.
In more then one person.....
One must LISTEN to hear it.
The 1 lost sheep that you search for,
even though you already have a hundred.
The one piece of silver that the woman took apart her house to find.
And rejoiced to find it.
These, and more, are not outreach parables.
But parables of one's own soul.
This is the WORK that is required to find.
A letting go and ceaseing to fight, to inquire.
Can't do both, fight and look, inquire.....find....
Eternal life has already been accomplished for all.
Having it----- some want to find it.
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Oakspear
back to our scheduled discussion...
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cheranne
sorry,i've been away at Hershey childrens hospital with my grandson,he is out now and better.
It really doesn't matter what I personally think or don't think only God knows the heart of a person and i am unqualified to make
a statement on the saved position,..i believe i have always been a wondering person concerning spiritual things,my choice is
to believe Jesus Christ is God.
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Ham
The fact vic could speak something that sounded like Swahili or something really doesn't impress me any more. The mere fact that we needed practice sessions would suggest to me that the experience was largely contrived.
I read der vey living in lust before I took pfal.. I remembered vic's description of how when it "really came" it was like fire.. so fluent, speaking in more than one tongue.. and by session twelve, he seemed to have enough trouble spitting out a half dozen words or so. I thought.. what's THIS? What happened to the fire, and fluency I read about.. It seemed so contrived at the time.
The coordinator prancing about, tears in his eyes over the "greatness" of it all..
I went along with the "gag".. by session twelve there didn't seem to be any turning back.
all that teaching.. how vic's version of sit was "proof beyond a shadow of a doubt" of supposedly what is the "new birth"..
I think we were slowly trained to scam ourselves.. I heard an old branch coordinator call people "low maintenance believers". Just hold our own leash, keep speaking in tongues hours on end, when in "twig" listen to what the voice of God (the ramblings of another "low maintenence believer"), keep yourself convinced that you've got the greatest goods since the earth cooled, keep putting fifteen percent or so in the horn.. show up to meetings five minutes early.. run classes.. keep trying to rake people in..
So, I cast my vote once more, if that's legal here Bow.. "no, I do not think he was born again". At least by vic's requirements. Or definition.
I just don't think someone could experience something supposedly so significant, and just go back to living life worse than before. I asked the same thing of a friend I knew back then.. "if you're so this and that.. how comes ya don't live any better than that bum down the street.."
The answer? "Don't you DARE touch MY righteousnesss.." sheesh.. I'm not touching it, you're doing it to youself.. providing you have it to begin with.
:)
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waysider
Amen to that, Brother!!
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jeffl
I don't know if I'm doing this right. I've never posted on here, but technically, none of them were born again because it was before the Day of Pentecost when The Lord poured out holy spirit. Judas committed suicide some time before Pentecost. Hope I did this right.
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pond
I was "born again" at a very young age.
It has taken me a life time to try to learn who Jesus christ is to me and to my life.
I do not weigh these days Im living as much as the PROMISE of eternal life in a kingdom with Jesus and God.
that is the plan of what god did when he raised Jesus to be the christ of mankind He saved us not from this world but for the one to come.
do I think christians can and do make a difference in this time?
yes I also believe it to be true of all of God's creation because i believe they Jesus christ and god are in our life to stay in everyones life for our good
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waysider
Hi, Jeffl
You did just fine.
Welcome aboard!
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Oneluckymutha
IMO...
First of all, I don't really begin to assume what is in another person's heart, but I think it's possible he was born again.
What happended with VPW was not all that new or shocking. If you read the word there were more than a few men of God who fell HARD. Like, Saul, Solomon, Eli, even David. Now I'm not suggesting VP is even in the same league with any of them, but it happens. And has all through history. A person starts out with good intentions, getting it right, then majorly blows it at some point along the way.
IMO. there were some good, accurate things about the Way, and some bad, totally wrong things about it.
I think it's particularly hard as believers to accept that a leader we looked up to and trusted could screw up and dissapoint us so much. But, the good news about it is that we learn the lesson of not looking to a man to think & feel for us. But that we look to God to lead us.
I know some people on Greasespot don't even believe in God or Jesus anymore because of being burned by the Way and that makes me sad. But, for those who do, we can take a great lesson away from it. I have learned to never let any person take the place of God in my life again.
As far as VPW, I'll let God sort that one out. I don't know if he was screwed up from the beginning or just lost it along the way somewhere. The problem is he influenced so many other people and either way he will have to account for that to God.
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