No. I don't think he was. If his day to day life was any real indication of the merits of redemption or the "new birth", I question the existence of either of them.
It's just..
the "enormity" of the new birth and all.. a man supposedly being "changed".. how is it he can just go on with life and sin worse and worse.
I thought it was supposed to be about WHOLENESS. Obviously it didn't exactly work in this particular case.. at least as indicated in THIS life..
Ya know, I just can't presume to know just what was in the heart of a man. If at one time in his life, he actually confessed Jesus as Lord and believed in his heart that God raised him from the dead, and truly believed it in his heart, then I would have to say, according to God's Word, that he was truly born again of that incorruptible seed which is what it is, incorruptible.
But, who really knows other than God if he did that or not? I certainly don't. I think I'll just let God be the Judge of "who gets in and who doesn't. " I will say this, I hope he was born again, for, I would not wish eternal damnation on anyone other than Satan and his fallen angels.
Well Bow, I don`t believe anything those monsters taught. Think about it, wierwilles actions read right down the line of every fruit that is listed as that of a man of the flesh in galatians 5....you can go right down the line and check off darned near every behavior mentioned like a check list. How in the world could we believe anything spiritual taught from a man of the flesh or his doctrines?? Everything is suspect including his take interpretation of the new birth and incorruptible seed, imo
I don`t think that we need to even guess...we are given very clear guidelines in the scriptures to identify a person.
In the scriptures, that Jesus told us that we would *recognize* one another by the fruit of the spirit. That always said to me...that there must be something more to the spiritual walk than slapping a label and proclaiming one to be a christian...shrug...apparently, we needed a guide to know what was really inside a person, because we danged sure couldn`t tell by what they said or the works that they displayed.
Tie that together with galatians which says uncatagorically that those who did what wierwille and his buddies did, will have absolutely no inheritance in the kingdom of God....I have to suspect the whole notion of wierwille being in heaven, simply because he recited a couple of verses...as questionable.
The scriptures do discuss false prophets...those are guys that pretend to be prophets...I imagine that means that they speak scripture and act like prophets well enough to fool people.....I dunno...looking at wierwille`s life, looking at the fruit displayed, looking at all of the harm that he personally inflicted, at the people his ministry and doctrine wounded...at the deaths caused by adherance to his teachings....I`d place him in that catagory.
This just doesn`t happen in genuine christian groups and lives.
Having met genuine christians outside of the influence of twi, I`d have to say that the contrasts are pretty stark.
Tie that together with galatians which says uncatagorically that those who did what wierwille and his buddies did, will have absolutely no inheritance in the kingdom of God....I have to suspect the whole notion of wierwille being in heaven, simply because he recited a couple of verses...as questionable.
This verse was addressed to Christians, warning them that if they walked by the flesh, there would be no rewards, no inheritance in the kingdom of God. It does not say these folks shall not "enter" the kingdom; it says they shall not "inherit" the kingdom. What about a Christian's sonship, what about God's forgiveness, what about Jesus as the lamb of God to take away the sin of the world, what about God's promise of everlasting life to those who believe in Jesus? I believe you're communicating false doctrine about that verse.
In the scriptures, that Jesus told us that we would *recognize* one another by the fruit of the spirit. That always said to me...that there must be something more to the spiritual walk than slapping a label and proclaiming one to be a christian...shrug...apparently, we needed a guide to know what was really inside a person, because we danged sure couldn`t tell by what they said or the works that they displayed.
Rascal, until you define how to recognize fruit of the spirit, I think your words are meaningless.
Please explain how you recognize fruit of the spirit in your "genuine Christian" friends. How do you know they're not just being nice and displaying good manners?
Unless you explain yourself, I think you're just blowing hot air...
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Seems a pretty straight forward way to identify to me.
As are the previous verses ....
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
In Mathew 7....it describes who and what I believe vpw`s actions and fruit define him as.
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them.
As far as I am concerned...I personally think that after examining the evidence of the fruit in his life, that this will the fate of wierwille
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
If I make it myself, judging from these scriptures....I really don`t expect to see wierwille or his ilk there.
You know? He`ll either be there or he won`t...as will we. We are all either right or wrong....I don`t see what that matters in the here and now except that it attacks his credibility as a christian, and the validity of his doctrine.
It would be my opinion that anyone who isn`t showing the signs given , the stick by which we were given to measure ones spiritual health by, that their understanding of things of the spirit might be flawed.
well..i don't know what happened on his death bed but as far as THE DIETY OF JESUS he claimed to believe JESUS CHRIST WAS NOT GOD,NEVER WAS AND NEVER WILL BE.
THEREFORE with out the blood of Jesus you have no substance.
I'm wondering if the fruit of the spirit is what we display when we're walking by the spirit, as opposed to because we're born again. Maybe it's how we can see that someone is actually walking the talk.
I'm thinking there might be a way to see who actually is born again and I'm not sure I believe that it's speaking in tongues. I don't believe it's being kind to others, as I'm sure there are atheists that are very kind to others as a normal part of their lifestyle.
I'm also wondering what you think of Judas Iscariot - do you think he'll be in heaven?
I'm going to ask my local pastor these questions too and see what his thoughts are.
I'm wondering if the fruit of the spirit is what we display when we're walking by the spirit, as opposed to because we're born again. Maybe it's how we can see that someone is actually walking the talk.
I'm thinking there might be a way to see who actually is born again and I'm not sure I believe that it's speaking in tongues. I don't believe it's being kind to others, as I'm sure there are atheists that are very kind to others as a normal part of their lifestyle.
I'm also wondering what you think of Judas Iscariot - do you think he'll be in heaven?
I'm going to ask my local pastor these questions too and see what his thoughts are.
well..i don't know what happened on his death bed but as far as THE DIETY OF JESUS he claimed to believe JESUS CHRIST WAS NOT GOD,NEVER WAS AND NEVER WILL BE.
THEREFORE with out the blood of Jesus you have no substance.
Oklahoma, do you believe that unless a person believes that Jesus is God, they are not saved?
I'm wondering if the fruit of the spirit is what we display when we're walking by the spirit, as opposed to because we're born again. Maybe it's how we can see that someone is actually walking the talk.
That's what I believe concerning Dr. Wierwille, because I saw him walk the talk of a born again Christian.
Please don't think I'm singling you out in a negative way. I'm honestly simply asking questions here.
Do you believe that Judas made it to heaven, but vpw didn't? Does that mean you believe that what vpw did was worse than what Judas did? I'm not sure I can word my question clearly enough, so please believe I'm really looking for answers, nothing more.
Bow, I just plain don`t know. But i`ll tell you this...IF vpw was God`s representative...IF he was a Godly man that just screwed up occasionally...but in spite of that he ran a ministry that was spiritually healthy...Than I really have a huge problem with a God that would lead me and others there to suffer, to be stolen from and to be destoyed.
On the other hand...IF vp was a wolf in sheeps clothing, a false prophet that led people away from God...a deceiver who used scriptures and the authority and respect of a minister to lure in the unsuspecting victims....those who were unfamiliar with the grace of a loving God, and the behavior of genuine christian brothers and sisters...
Then that is a God that I can trust, I can put my anger at our betrayal, my absolute disgust for the deception, my heart break over the pain suffered, the families destroyed, and the lives lost at the feet of these men...and not be mad at God...you know what I mean?
It is important to me because how in the heck could I trust God knowing that he led us to such a place to be used, hurt and tossed aside like so much trash??
is this evangelical "born again" formula really anything like the pattern of a natural birth, like Jesus taught?
from what i understand, natural births can be messy and complicated
and only come after a prolonged period of complex development
is spiritual birth going to be less amazing? less of a journey? less of a trial?
its been a while since i looked, but has anyone else noticed that greek word for "born" in the "born again" of Peter's epistle is the word for "conception"
if so...how does that fit with what Jesus said? what does that do to the "born again" formula of PFAL and Christian evangelicals?
it seems to me that there is much scriptural evidence to support a multi-layered process by which one is "spiritually born"
if "process" sounds too much like "works"...it is...but so is 9 months of gestation...a process in the works that we had no choice in
and there is typically a struggle to being born...but that struggle is still not something we choose to do...but something that we must do
we are "made whole" by grace...not by simple magic formulas that only exist as concepts in our minds
...
and too...what if a non-christian manifests fruit of the spirit?
what if a non-evangelical christian teaches wisdom, heals the sick, feeds the poor, helps transform lives and bring peace?
is it possible that "biblically christian" is actually much much higher than what we think is "biblically christian"?
Hi Bowtie. Regarding your question of Judas, I do not believe he was "born again."
The Bible is quite clear in calling him the man of perdition. If you read Peter in Acts, he is quite clear when he says Judas has no place with them. Peter does not hide what he thinks of Judas.
I believe Christ knew when he called him to follow him, who he was and what his role would be, the one fitted for Perdition - destruction.
Yet, what I find incredible, is even then, Christ treats him as his closest friend when he hands him the sop. He trusts him with their money. What this shows me is that, even after offering his love and friendship to Judas, it shows me that a man's nature - one who does not love God - even if Christ were to be with him in the flesh, if he does not accept Christ as Messiah/Savior, he cannot be forced to believe, his nature cannot be changed, and God will not overstep the man's free will. Man's nature is still enmity with God. Judas after being with Christ (Emmanuel - God with us) still did not accept him, nor his love.
There are times when Satan, faced with a monumental and pivotal task that must be done right to accomplish his will, will do something himself, such as when he tempted Christ in the wilderness and Adam and Eve in the Garden. Satan, in order to get the ball rolling for Christ to be killed, thought this so important, that he entered into Judas. He entered into Judas.
The only other person Satan will ever enter into in the Word is yet to come - the Antichrist.
So, to me, there were only two men ever entered into by Satan in the Word - Judas and Antichrist.
Thus, I personally do not think Judas was ever then or now, born again. But that is just my opinion. :)
Please don't think I'm singling you out in a negative way. I'm honestly simply asking questions here.
Do you believe that Judas made it to heaven, but vpw didn't? Does that mean you believe that what vpw did was worse than what Judas did? I'm not sure I can word my question clearly enough, so please believe I'm really looking for answers, nothing more.
I have no facts in a court of law to defend either positions. I just think Judas was very sorry,and grieved to have sold
Jesus for 30 pieces of silver that he bought a field with the money and hung himself in the field of blood.
vpw on the other hand bought airplanes,land here and their to promote more lies and hinder the truth of the gospel.
What She said! (Sunesis). Very well put : ) about Judas. I do not believe he was born again either.
I asked the very same question at my local churches study group two weeks ago. The concept of perdition & destruction outweighed and trumped all of those pronouns (apostles he had chosen, to whoms, thems, and theys) leading up to men of Galilee, that we heard in PALF.
That was also a beautiful side point about Jesus demonstrating love to Judas.
Hi Bowtie. Regarding your question of Judas, I do not believe he was "born again."
The Bible is quite clear in calling him the man of perdition. If you read Peter in Acts, he is quite clear when he says Judas has no place with them. Peter does not hide what he thinks of Judas.
I believe Christ knew when he called him to follow him, who he was and what his role would be, the one fitted for Perdition - destruction.
Yet, what I find incredible, is even then, Christ treats him as his closest friend when he hands him the sop. He trusts him with their money. What this shows me is that, even after offering his love and friendship to Judas, it shows me that a man's nature - one who does not love God - even if Christ were to be with him in the flesh, if he does not accept Christ as Messiah/Savior, he cannot be forced to believe, his nature cannot be changed, and God will not overstep the man's free will. Man's nature is still enmity with God. Judas after being with Christ (Emmanuel - God with us) still did not accept him, nor his love.
There are times when Satan, faced with a monumental and pivotal task that must be done right to accomplish his will, will do something himself, such as when he tempted Christ in the wilderness and Adam and Eve in the Garden. Satan, in order to get the ball rolling for Christ to be killed, thought this so important, that he entered into Judas. He entered into Judas.
The only other person Satan will ever enter into in the Word is yet to come - the Antichrist.
So, to me, there were only two men ever entered into by Satan in the Word - Judas and Antichrist.
Thus, I personally do not think Judas was ever then or now, born again. But that is just my opinion. :)
what do you think happens to the mentally ill,that don't have the capacity to understand being born again? I think judas
went crazy and committed suicide.
Hi Bowtie. Regarding your question of Judas, I do not believe he was "born again."
The Bible is quite clear in calling him the man of perdition. If you read Peter in Acts, he is quite clear when he says Judas has no place with them. Peter does not hide what he thinks of Judas.
I believe Christ knew when he called him to follow him, who he was and what his role would be, the one fitted for Perdition - destruction.
Yet, what I find incredible, is even then, Christ treats him as his closest friend when he hands him the sop. He trusts him with their money. What this shows me is that, even after offering his love and friendship to Judas, it shows me that a man's nature - one who does not love God - even if Christ were to be with him in the flesh, if he does not accept Christ as Messiah/Savior, he cannot be forced to believe, his nature cannot be changed, and God will not overstep the man's free will. Man's nature is still enmity with God. Judas after being with Christ (Emmanuel - God with us) still did not accept him, nor his love.
There are times when Satan, faced with a monumental and pivotal task that must be done right to accomplish his will, will do something himself, such as when he tempted Christ in the wilderness and Adam and Eve in the Garden. Satan, in order to get the ball rolling for Christ to be killed, thought this so important, that he entered into Judas. He entered into Judas.
The only other person Satan will ever enter into in the Word is yet to come - the Antichrist.
So, to me, there were only two men ever entered into by Satan in the Word - Judas and Antichrist.
Thus, I personally do not think Judas was ever then or now, born again. But that is just my opinion. :)
what do you think happens to the mentally ill,that don't have the capacity to understand being born again? I think judas
Honestly, I don't really care if he(VPW) was or wasn't.
And I no longer believe that speaking in tongues is some infallible proof beyond proof of someones' spiritual state.
Even VPW admitted that he successfully faked it at least once.
Then later, he stated that it was impossible to fake it.
What I do believe is that he was an unscrupulous snake oil salesman who developed a very successful multi level marketing scheme at the expense of a lot of good hearted(but gullible) people like you and me.
If you just take a moment and look at it all, stripped down and naked, without all the religious trappings, it becomes a whole lot clearer that he scammed us.
Of course, there are some people who will never dare to do that because they were so thoroughly(or was that throughly ) indoctrinated to never allow their minds to consider any alternative to what "the teacher" assured us to be the ultimate enlightenment.
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No. I don't think he was. If his day to day life was any real indication of the merits of redemption or the "new birth", I question the existence of either of them.
It's just..
the "enormity" of the new birth and all.. a man supposedly being "changed".. how is it he can just go on with life and sin worse and worse.
I thought it was supposed to be about WHOLENESS. Obviously it didn't exactly work in this particular case.. at least as indicated in THIS life..
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J0nny Ling0
Ya know, I just can't presume to know just what was in the heart of a man. If at one time in his life, he actually confessed Jesus as Lord and believed in his heart that God raised him from the dead, and truly believed it in his heart, then I would have to say, according to God's Word, that he was truly born again of that incorruptible seed which is what it is, incorruptible.
But, who really knows other than God if he did that or not? I certainly don't. I think I'll just let God be the Judge of "who gets in and who doesn't. " I will say this, I hope he was born again, for, I would not wish eternal damnation on anyone other than Satan and his fallen angels.
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rascal
Well Bow, I don`t believe anything those monsters taught. Think about it, wierwilles actions read right down the line of every fruit that is listed as that of a man of the flesh in galatians 5....you can go right down the line and check off darned near every behavior mentioned like a check list. How in the world could we believe anything spiritual taught from a man of the flesh or his doctrines?? Everything is suspect including his take interpretation of the new birth and incorruptible seed, imo
I don`t think that we need to even guess...we are given very clear guidelines in the scriptures to identify a person.
In the scriptures, that Jesus told us that we would *recognize* one another by the fruit of the spirit. That always said to me...that there must be something more to the spiritual walk than slapping a label and proclaiming one to be a christian...shrug...apparently, we needed a guide to know what was really inside a person, because we danged sure couldn`t tell by what they said or the works that they displayed.
Tie that together with galatians which says uncatagorically that those who did what wierwille and his buddies did, will have absolutely no inheritance in the kingdom of God....I have to suspect the whole notion of wierwille being in heaven, simply because he recited a couple of verses...as questionable.
The scriptures do discuss false prophets...those are guys that pretend to be prophets...I imagine that means that they speak scripture and act like prophets well enough to fool people.....I dunno...looking at wierwille`s life, looking at the fruit displayed, looking at all of the harm that he personally inflicted, at the people his ministry and doctrine wounded...at the deaths caused by adherance to his teachings....I`d place him in that catagory.
This just doesn`t happen in genuine christian groups and lives.
Having met genuine christians outside of the influence of twi, I`d have to say that the contrasts are pretty stark.
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oldiesman
Rascal, what is your definition of a "genuine" Christian? Is it a born-again Christian?
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oldiesman
This verse was addressed to Christians, warning them that if they walked by the flesh, there would be no rewards, no inheritance in the kingdom of God. It does not say these folks shall not "enter" the kingdom; it says they shall not "inherit" the kingdom. What about a Christian's sonship, what about God's forgiveness, what about Jesus as the lamb of God to take away the sin of the world, what about God's promise of everlasting life to those who believe in Jesus? I believe you're communicating false doctrine about that verse.
Rascal, until you define how to recognize fruit of the spirit, I think your words are meaningless.
Please explain how you recognize fruit of the spirit in your "genuine Christian" friends. How do you know they're not just being nice and displaying good manners?
Unless you explain yourself, I think you're just blowing hot air...
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oldiesman
BTW, here's another question for you Rascal:
Was the fruit that Jesus was speaking of the same as the fruit of the spirit in Galatians?
When Jesus spoke those words about fruit, pentecost had not yet come. Please explain.
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rascal
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Seems a pretty straight forward way to identify to me.
As are the previous verses ....
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
In Mathew 7....it describes who and what I believe vpw`s actions and fruit define him as.
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them.
As far as I am concerned...I personally think that after examining the evidence of the fruit in his life, that this will the fate of wierwille
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
If I make it myself, judging from these scriptures....I really don`t expect to see wierwille or his ilk there.
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coolchef
i hope the cornfield preacher is in heaven when i get there,
boy do i have some choice words to share with him!
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rascal
Amen Cool chef!
You know? He`ll either be there or he won`t...as will we. We are all either right or wrong....I don`t see what that matters in the here and now except that it attacks his credibility as a christian, and the validity of his doctrine.
It would be my opinion that anyone who isn`t showing the signs given , the stick by which we were given to measure ones spiritual health by, that their understanding of things of the spirit might be flawed.
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cheranne
well..i don't know what happened on his death bed but as far as THE DIETY OF JESUS he claimed to believe JESUS CHRIST WAS NOT GOD,NEVER WAS AND NEVER WILL BE.
THEREFORE with out the blood of Jesus you have no substance.
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bowtwi
I'm wondering if the fruit of the spirit is what we display when we're walking by the spirit, as opposed to because we're born again. Maybe it's how we can see that someone is actually walking the talk.
I'm thinking there might be a way to see who actually is born again and I'm not sure I believe that it's speaking in tongues. I don't believe it's being kind to others, as I'm sure there are atheists that are very kind to others as a normal part of their lifestyle.
I'm also wondering what you think of Judas Iscariot - do you think he'll be in heaven?
I'm going to ask my local pastor these questions too and see what his thoughts are.
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cheranne
yes i believe judas made it.
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oldiesman
Oklahoma, do you believe that unless a person believes that Jesus is God, they are not saved?
That's what I believe concerning Dr. Wierwille, because I saw him walk the talk of a born again Christian.
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bowtwi
Please don't think I'm singling you out in a negative way. I'm honestly simply asking questions here.
Do you believe that Judas made it to heaven, but vpw didn't? Does that mean you believe that what vpw did was worse than what Judas did? I'm not sure I can word my question clearly enough, so please believe I'm really looking for answers, nothing more.
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rascal
Bow, I just plain don`t know. But i`ll tell you this...IF vpw was God`s representative...IF he was a Godly man that just screwed up occasionally...but in spite of that he ran a ministry that was spiritually healthy...Than I really have a huge problem with a God that would lead me and others there to suffer, to be stolen from and to be destoyed.
On the other hand...IF vp was a wolf in sheeps clothing, a false prophet that led people away from God...a deceiver who used scriptures and the authority and respect of a minister to lure in the unsuspecting victims....those who were unfamiliar with the grace of a loving God, and the behavior of genuine christian brothers and sisters...
Then that is a God that I can trust, I can put my anger at our betrayal, my absolute disgust for the deception, my heart break over the pain suffered, the families destroyed, and the lives lost at the feet of these men...and not be mad at God...you know what I mean?
It is important to me because how in the heck could I trust God knowing that he led us to such a place to be used, hurt and tossed aside like so much trash??
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sirguessalot
is this evangelical "born again" formula really anything like the pattern of a natural birth, like Jesus taught?
from what i understand, natural births can be messy and complicated
and only come after a prolonged period of complex development
is spiritual birth going to be less amazing? less of a journey? less of a trial?
its been a while since i looked, but has anyone else noticed that greek word for "born" in the "born again" of Peter's epistle is the word for "conception"
if so...how does that fit with what Jesus said? what does that do to the "born again" formula of PFAL and Christian evangelicals?
it seems to me that there is much scriptural evidence to support a multi-layered process by which one is "spiritually born"
if "process" sounds too much like "works"...it is...but so is 9 months of gestation...a process in the works that we had no choice in
and there is typically a struggle to being born...but that struggle is still not something we choose to do...but something that we must do
we are "made whole" by grace...not by simple magic formulas that only exist as concepts in our minds
...
and too...what if a non-christian manifests fruit of the spirit?
what if a non-evangelical christian teaches wisdom, heals the sick, feeds the poor, helps transform lives and bring peace?
is it possible that "biblically christian" is actually much much higher than what we think is "biblically christian"?
wider?
deeper?
why not?
what is possible?
do we need new tongues?
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cheranne
sorry i took so long to respond....i had to go get my high boots on as i can see this ......is going to get DEEP.
i am not here to preach at anyone or for any religion or cause however i do think we should do something
about global warming.
If you are looking for GOD . ...and you stumble upon the way which at the time in your life seems,and appears to be
the right thing with all its twist and turns and lies(that you do not know because you don't know anything about
the bible seems better than what you had,half lies are still lies ,you can't be half pregnant either you are or not.
Being born again..means justthat new birth which is available through Jesus Christ(read john l and 2)
We got the shaft and even though our HEARTS were in the right place and i believe God always new our hearts
of the people of twi but we were under the influence of a coma state of brainwashing.
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cheranne
amen! I will be in line i dreamed with bette midler and danny devito
and i will have a big fryingpan in my hand if vpw is there? I don't play!
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Sunesis
Hi Bowtie. Regarding your question of Judas, I do not believe he was "born again."
The Bible is quite clear in calling him the man of perdition. If you read Peter in Acts, he is quite clear when he says Judas has no place with them. Peter does not hide what he thinks of Judas.
I believe Christ knew when he called him to follow him, who he was and what his role would be, the one fitted for Perdition - destruction.
Yet, what I find incredible, is even then, Christ treats him as his closest friend when he hands him the sop. He trusts him with their money. What this shows me is that, even after offering his love and friendship to Judas, it shows me that a man's nature - one who does not love God - even if Christ were to be with him in the flesh, if he does not accept Christ as Messiah/Savior, he cannot be forced to believe, his nature cannot be changed, and God will not overstep the man's free will. Man's nature is still enmity with God. Judas after being with Christ (Emmanuel - God with us) still did not accept him, nor his love.
There are times when Satan, faced with a monumental and pivotal task that must be done right to accomplish his will, will do something himself, such as when he tempted Christ in the wilderness and Adam and Eve in the Garden. Satan, in order to get the ball rolling for Christ to be killed, thought this so important, that he entered into Judas. He entered into Judas.
The only other person Satan will ever enter into in the Word is yet to come - the Antichrist.
So, to me, there were only two men ever entered into by Satan in the Word - Judas and Antichrist.
Thus, I personally do not think Judas was ever then or now, born again. But that is just my opinion. :)
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cheranne
I have no facts in a court of law to defend either positions. I just think Judas was very sorry,and grieved to have sold
Jesus for 30 pieces of silver that he bought a field with the money and hung himself in the field of blood.
vpw on the other hand bought airplanes,land here and their to promote more lies and hinder the truth of the gospel.
hurt more people an destroyed families.
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wing
What She said! (Sunesis). Very well put : ) about Judas. I do not believe he was born again either.
I asked the very same question at my local churches study group two weeks ago. The concept of perdition & destruction outweighed and trumped all of those pronouns (apostles he had chosen, to whoms, thems, and theys) leading up to men of Galilee, that we heard in PALF.
That was also a beautiful side point about Jesus demonstrating love to Judas.
wing
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cheranne
what do you think happens to the mentally ill,that don't have the capacity to understand being born again? I think judas
went crazy and committed suicide.
what do you think happens to the mentally ill,that don't have the capacity to understand being born again? I think judas
went crazy and committed suicide.
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waysider
Honestly, I don't really care if he(VPW) was or wasn't.
And I no longer believe that speaking in tongues is some infallible proof beyond proof of someones' spiritual state.
Even VPW admitted that he successfully faked it at least once.
Then later, he stated that it was impossible to fake it.
What I do believe is that he was an unscrupulous snake oil salesman who developed a very successful multi level marketing scheme at the expense of a lot of good hearted(but gullible) people like you and me.
If you just take a moment and look at it all, stripped down and naked, without all the religious trappings, it becomes a whole lot clearer that he scammed us.
Of course, there are some people who will never dare to do that because they were so thoroughly(or was that throughly
) indoctrinated to never allow their minds to consider any alternative to what "the teacher" assured us to be the ultimate enlightenment.
They have my sympathy.
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cheranne
i like Dolly Parton
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