1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
and
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
these is what you are talking about my friend
My question is how can this transformation of atoms, matter, and energy of millions of people be done with such awesome power? What type of power is it?
the power of God's love
but adams and matter are not transform but what is the conscience of each person that which makes you, you
The "Rapture of the Church can best be describled as ....
an event foretold in the Bible where the Lord Jesus removes all christians and children from the earth in the blink of an eye, right before he severely punishes those still here for rejecting him and ignoring his offer of eternal life. It's also a time when God gives people their last chance to seek forgiveness for their sin, and turn to the Lord by believing Jesus died on the cross and rose again three days later as payment for their sins. After christians are removed from the earth, the events foretold in the Bible's book of Revelation
My question is how can this transformation of atoms, matter, and energy of millions of people be done with such awesome power? What type of power is it?
I asked my Way Corps leadership about this event sometime long ago, but I would always get reproved and their answer was those events are not for us to know.
I don't want to start a conflict at your site but has anyone done a study on this event. Again we are talking about converting matter, atoms energy into a spiritual catagory
thanxs
You want a TECHNICAL explanation, from what I see.
I shall do my best to answer correctly and briefly.
Here's the verses usually used:
I Corinthians 15 (various verses) (NASB)
20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
35But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?"
36You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;
37and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.
38But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.
39All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.
40There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42So also is the resurrection of the dead It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL " The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
47The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
48As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
49Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
55"O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?"
I Thessalonians 4 doesn't provide any insight to this.
As I see it, the living bodies receive a physical upgrade. Its capabilities will be enhanced. Either a side-effect of that, or some
other enhancements will match us to Jesus' resurrected body. That will include human appearance still, and some sort of
teleportation ability like he showed.
Each upgrade/transformation will be a miracle.
So, I can discuss small amounts of WHAT but not HOW, except to say "miraculously."
first let me say I enjoy your understanding of "TECHNICAL explanation" of the Rapture
but saying "I Thessalonians 4 doesn't provide any insight to this" is like saying the love of Christ does not add to the love of God
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
but
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
adds to the picture painted in our minds
as do the verses you added
In 1 Corinthians 15 we see it talking about "corruptible must put on incorruption" but 1 Thessalonians 4 we see the corruptible = dead in Christ
we allso see in 1 Corinthians 15 "mortal must put on immortality" but 1 Thessalonians 4 we see the mortal = we which are alive
then we see your verse 1 Corinthians 15:23 "But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming," telling me not all at one "twinkling of an eye" but each having their own order or many "twinkling of an eye" or many returns of Christ
then there verses like Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."
because the malefactor could not changed until Christ did first so his conscience could not receive a new body yet because he would die before Christ won over death so the malefactor wait for Jesus to become Christ before he could leave the earth
otherwise his conscience must stray in paradise a place God has prepared for men of old conscience to wait until Jesus became Christ by winning over death
then the malefactor a dead in christ could put on incorruption
We are alive in Christ and once we are made alive spiritual death is just a stage we overcome at our personal last trump = last breath
this way we can see how Matthew 27:52- 53 fits together with it all
Matthew 27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
which goes with Ezekiel 37:12-14 "Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
the dead in Christ which are the corruptible who have put on incorruption is past tense
done happen
but has for technical explanation it can not be given because no verse explains it completly like a "miraculously." act like you have said
because conscience can not be measure nor is it matter of any kind
Why not answer the first question, which is HOW did God create matter, atoms, energy when he created the heavens and the earth?
If you can answer that, then you could answer this ''rapture'' question. I mean, if we can't get this right, all else fails us.
God isn't a magician with a formula. That is what we did and wanted in the Way. Everything had to "make sense'' to our human minds.
Personally, I don't believe in a so called rapture (not the one you described), but I do believe we will all be changed.(put on immortality etc...)
God is bigger than our human minds can comprehend. He exists beyond/outside our ''knowledge''.
To me, what matters is that He will/can do this, not how does He do it. (*forgive me sounding like your WC leadership* yikes**)
I have a friend who was in missions in an African villiage in the 60's .
These people had NO CONCEPT of what ice was. NONE.
He tried and tried to explain that where he was from people could skate on sheets of ice, eat ice and that is would snow from the sky.
The Africans could not believe it. They had never seen it or experienced it. It was outside of their knowledge.
Did ice exist? Of course. But to them, they just couldn't believe//comprehend it.
A few years go by and my friend got a small refrigerator from town with one of those little ice compartments.
Brought it to the villiage and showed them filling it up with water and then waiting a few hours for it to freeze.
Those villagers thought he was a magic man for sure.
I guess my point is really, that there are things we aren't going to ever know about God, unless He reveals them to us.
It doesn't make things less real. They are just not real to us right now.
Whatever/however He does this matter, energy change thing, it is going to be so awesome! So awesome that right now I don't think we could comprehend it.
Why not answer the first question, which is HOW did God create matter, atoms, energy when he created the heavens and the earth?
If you can answer that, then you could answer this ''rapture'' question. I mean, if we can't get this right, all else fails us.
God isn't a magician with a formula. That is what we did and wanted in the Way. Everything had to "make sense'' to our human minds.
Personally, I don't believe in a so called rapture (not the one you described), but I do believe we will all be changed.(put on immortality etc...)
God is bigger than our human minds can comprehend. He exists beyond/outside our ''knowledge''.
To me, what matters is that He will/can do this, not how does He do it. (*forgive me sounding like your WC leadership* yikes**)
I have a friend who was in missions in an African villiage in the 60's .
These people had NO CONCEPT of what ice was. NONE.
He tried and tried to explain that where he was from people could skate on sheets of ice, eat ice and that is would snow from the sky.
The Africans could not believe it. They had never seen it or experienced it. It was outside of their knowledge.
Did ice exist? Of course. But to them, they just couldn't believe//comprehend it.
A few years go by and my friend got a small refrigerator from town with one of those little ice compartments.
Brought it to the villiage and showed them filling it up with water and then waiting a few hours for it to freeze.
Those villagers thought he was a magic man for sure.
I guess my point is really, that there are things we aren't going to ever know about God, unless He reveals them to us.
It doesn't make things less real. They are just not real to us right now.
Whatever/however He does this matter, energy change thing, it is going to be so awesome! So awesome that right now I don't think we could comprehend it.
Why not answer the first question, which is HOW did God create matter, atoms, energy when he created the heavens and the earth?
If you can answer that, then you could answer this ''rapture'' question. I mean, if we can't get this right, all else fails us.
God isn't a magician with a formula. That is what we did and wanted in the Way. Everything had to "make sense'' to our human minds.
Personally, I don't believe in a so called rapture (not the one you described), but I do believe we will all be changed.(put on immortality etc...)
God is bigger than our human minds can comprehend. He exists beyond/outside our ''knowledge''.
To me, what matters is that He will/can do this, not how does He do it. (*forgive me sounding like your WC leadership* yikes**)
I have a friend who was in missions in an African villiage in the 60's .
These people had NO CONCEPT of what ice was. NONE.
He tried and tried to explain that where he was from people could skate on sheets of ice, eat ice and that is would snow from the sky.
The Africans could not believe it. They had never seen it or experienced it. It was outside of their knowledge.
Did ice exist? Of course. But to them, they just couldn't believe//comprehend it.
A few years go by and my friend got a small refrigerator from town with one of those little ice compartments.
Brought it to the villiage and showed them filling it up with water and then waiting a few hours for it to freeze.
Those villagers thought he was a magic man for sure.
I guess my point is really, that there are things we aren't going to ever know about God, unless He reveals them to us.
It doesn't make things less real. They are just not real to us right now.
Whatever/however He does this matter, energy change thing, it is going to be so awesome! So awesome that right now I don't think we could comprehend it.
excuse the long ramble :blink:
Bliss,
YOU STOLE MY THUNDER!
That's pretty close to what I was going to say, minus the African village.
I guess my point is really, that there are things we aren't going to ever know about God, unless He reveals them to us. It doesn't make things less real. They are just not real to us right now.
That about says it for me, Captain. I'm reminded of an old, old and I mean OLD Steve Martin routine, off his first album of stuff I think - where he talks about a new book "How to Make a Million Dollars in Real Estate".....
"First, get a million dollars...now then....!"
He says it really fast, so it's funny.
There are clearly sources of energy in the "known" universe that could be harnessed to do something like this, on the surface. But even if I took that and extrapolated it out to a huge transformation, it still wouldn't account for the unknowns - like how - actually how - are the dead rejoined, reconstituted, brought back into a state of awareness that takes into account 1 of two scenarios (or more I suppose) - that they've been residing in some state somewhere and are brought back into a single time and location together - and/or 2, they've been completely non-existent as hmmm...maybe call them singluar instances of life - and need to be brought back to "life" in a way that would probably qualify as a "new creation", based on the old one, but different.
Matter and atoms, stuff, is conceivable. Spirit isn't, by definition. "Pneuma" - like "wind". Wind has components that make it a force. I couldn't tell you what components make up spirit though. Life is funny - here today, gone tomorrow. The known components fail. If that's all there is, there's probably a 1,000 reasonable possiblities of "how" your question could be accomplished. It's back to the Steve Martin routine - God's God. He'll just make new bodies. How? Like He did the first time. How'd He do that? Good question.
But the awarness, the personality, the non-repeatable, unique and singlular identity of a person - wazzat?
I don't see matter being converted to "spirit", that's about all I could say. Corruptible putting on incorruption - if there's a conversion chart for it I'll leave it to you to cast some light on that topic. I'd love to hear what your ideas are.
Frankly, I'm hoping I get a little less matter showing up at that point anyway. Maybe someone else could use some. They're welcome to some of mine.
I've heard other opinions. He gave some of his life for this creation to form..
first the withdrawl of divine light, then "things" kinda precipitated..
string theory may partly agree with this. We have basically three dimensions that survived when whatever happened happened.. along with time of course.. at least three dimensions that are intact, unbroken..
I think that bits of him were left floating around so to speak.. for a lot longer than what some may think..
I think we've been around for a long, long, long time..
Great posts all, they've got me thinking about a few things. How God created the cosmos, superstring theories, matter cannot be created or destroyed, and physical versus spiritual bodies…All speculation here – but fun stuff to think about, for sure!
God's Power to bind and to loose
Ages ago I read a small book – I think it was by a physicist – the book was The Atom Speaks or something like that. From what I remember, he described the incredible amount of energy in an atom of helium. The helium atom has two protons in the nucleus and two electrons around it. Like poles repel – yet the nucleus of helium with two protons stays intact. There is a strong force that is powerful enough to overcome the electrostatic repulsion between these like-charged protons. I remember a vivid description from this book – if we took the two protons and placed them at opposite ends of the earth – they would still exert a repelling force against each other of some 15 pounds [something like that if memory serves me right]. Imagine the amount of force needed to hold these two protons together!
Now, we've been talking about just ONE atom here…think about the power to create all matter and energy! It also makes me think of Colossians 1:17 NASB, "He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." I can't even begin to conceive of the amount of power God exerted in Genesis 1:1 creating the heavens and the earth!
On the flip side of that – check out II Peter 3:10-13 speaking of the Day of the Lord, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat. One could interpret this as an atomic reaction at a cosmic level – God who bound everything together…now sets it all loose…to re-do it all…verse 13 does mention His promise of making a new heaven and earth…Now some things to think about - - the transformation of people to inhabit this new world. Which brings us to…
Something old, something new
Like everyone else on this thread – I can see from Scripture that certain things will happen – but cannot speak of how they will happen. I find it intriguing that it seems our natural bodies are somehow linked to our future spiritual bodies. I know scientists say matter cannot be created or destroyed – and really that's only man's viewpoint. I imagine God can do whatever He wants…..
And what if…God has this whole thing worked out to such a minute personal detail – that He even re-constitutes our earthly vessels into new bodies. How hard is it for God to alter the molecular structure of something [whether scattered ashes, rotting bones in a grave or living tissue] so that it has totally different properties and capabilities?
Maybe this is so obvious to most folks – but this thread really got me thinking our current body has something to do with the future one. I read I Corinthians 15 in that light. I also thought about the obvious – Jesus Christ was raised from the dead…His body wasn't found. He took it with Him…but it was dramatically altered, of course.
Dimensions
I feel I've rambled on way too long – so I'll keep it brief here. My curiosity about our new bodies has led me to check out superstring theories and the nature of the cosmos. I've got 2 links below where I posted some stuff on this – but for this post I'd like to wrap it up by submitting an idea about the relationship of the physical and spiritual realm [again some of this I addressed in more detail on the links below].
It's possible that the difference between the physical world and the spiritual world is one of dimensions. And perhaps the terms "physical" and "spiritual" may be a little misleading. I think I had a fuzzy idea of the spiritual realm being a wispy world, dreamlike, like a ghost world – nothing of any real substance. But consider how Christ interacted with our world in His new body [again, discussed in the links below]. This superstring theory stuff has me thinking the spiritual realm does not exist in another space or time…not superimposed on our world…maybe wrapped up together with it…a convoluted tapestry of dimensions. At present, we are only aware of three…visualize how dimensions can be hidden by thinking of an 8 ½ inch by 11 inch piece of paper. Looking at it head on – you see its width and height and if there's anything written on it. But if I rotated the paper 90 degrees – all you'd see is the thin edge of the paper. And if I backed away from you – eventually you would not be able to see that thin edge.
Very nice T-Bone! Ever since I read Christ say that in his Father's house were many mansions years ago as a youth, I always thought that meant another dimension. The many mansions, or rooms, were different places and dimensions.
I think when mankind someday sees Christ revealed when he comes in glory, it will be like a limosine with dark windows, when the windows roll down, you see the occupants. I think someday, the sky will roll open and part and the whole world - every human being all over the world, will see his face and will know - he has always been here. Now, though, the window is rolled up, we see through a glass darkly... Thus, men scoff and mock and say - where is he?
I believe we will need a new body because the heavens are "heavier" matterwise than here. I sometimes wonder if our world is not the ghostly, wispy world. I say that because, for example, have you ever drive through fog? Its dark and dense, has a form, and is real. But, because we are heavier than it, we pass right through it easily.
We know Christ passed right through walls, appeared in rooms in the midst, etc. In other words, he was able to pass right through things because they were as fog to him, his resurrected body was different - heavier somehow. A wall to him is as fog to us.
Who knows how our bodies will be changed, or those bodies of those who are dead. I imagine we'll find out soon enough.
Some interesting stuff. Any of this ring your bell, C.S.?
I had a side note scratching at my fiddle, need to get it out. I think asking your average Way Corps leadership a question like this could be dicey, I can see that. Unless they'd looked into out of personal interest there'd be no background or information for them to draw on. In fact most people probably don't think about it much, which is fine IMO. It is interesting to consider though, again IMO.
Roy's hit the nail on it - metrics. If we don't have the means to measure all of the elements and components involved, like "conscience", which I think means consciousness, awareness, the indvidual life - then we're outside looking in. Descriptors, we have some. Analysis though - limited. Real knowledge or understanding, next to zip.
We could say such and such will happen, and postulate it could happen by such and such means, but that's not the same as what I think you're asking. Describing the event is different than describing how it occurs.
Like graves. Not everyone's ever been buried in a grave and most that are can be found today all but decomposed. Unfortunately death comes to many in very destructive ways. So the image of a collection of bones being remade into a new living being - even that's kind of Disney-ish. If graves means burial plots, a lot of the dead will be out of luck. Must mean more than that. So I dunno, I really don't. I think the topic does lend itself to a more manageable view of what happens to "us" after we die though and in turn what "llfe", the life of each person really is, although I say that with a big dose of "duh", as I'm playing out of my weight on this topic. But it's interesting.
Very nice T-Bone! Ever since I read Christ say that in his Father's house were many mansions years ago as a youth, I always thought that meant another dimension. The many mansions, or rooms, were different places and dimensions.
I think when mankind someday sees Christ revealed when he comes in glory, it will be like a limosine with dark windows, when the windows roll down, you see the occupants. I think someday, the sky will roll open and part and the whole world - every human being all over the world, will see his face and will know - he has always been here. Now, though, the window is rolled up, we see through a glass darkly... Thus, men scoff and mock and say - where is he?
I believe we will need a new body because the heavens are "heavier" matterwise than here. I sometimes wonder if our world is not the ghostly, wispy world. I say that because, for example, have you ever drive through fog? Its dark and dense, has a form, and is real. But, because we are heavier than it, we pass right through it easily.
We know Christ passed right through walls, appeared in rooms in the midst, etc. In other words, he was able to pass right through things because they were as fog to him, his resurrected body was different - heavier somehow. A wall to him is as fog to us.
Who knows how our bodies will be changed, or those bodies of those who are dead. I imagine we'll find out soon enough.
This is very interesting.
It's my personal opinion-based mainly on me just mulling it over- that the universe (which scientists say is
finite) is contained INSIDE of God (Who is Infinite), and He's ever-present because He coexists
alongside 3-dimensional matter everywhere in a fourth dimension,
just like a flat, 2-dimensional finite object (like, say, an index card)
can be completely encased with, and touched everywhere, by a three-dimensional object
(like, say, a jello mold the index card is suspended in.)
What I am curious about(and please don't misinterpret this as skepticism), is how "the art of learning to accept death" fits with those who are never afforded that opportunity, such as those who die as newborns or those that have diminished mental capacity and so forth?
I know there are Biblical answers for those scenarios such as guardian angels and the age of accountability.
Maybe I just haven't read enough of your posts yet to see that angle.
Dunno.
Anyhow, I hope you will expound a bit more on this.
thanks waysider...and healthy skepticism is quite fine with me
lets see if i can answer without spiralling into some long unreadable scroll...
i'll start by pointing out that i am not speaking of "the art of learning to accepting death"...although that is certainly a vital part of it
but the actual art (i.e. discipline, act, science, etc...) of dying...literally...in terms of human consciousness
...the art of actually literally experiencing your true nature as it presently exists beyond the mortal human ego = "dying"
...
as it might relate to those who die young, or those who live a life of diminished capacity...
...we all end up in the same state of radical purity anyway...
and those who "die before they die" know this from experience, and cannot mourn loss the same way
...
re: biblical answers, guardian angels and the age of accountability...
determining (let alone communicating) what is authentically "biblical" is certainly a task...perhaps moreso today than ever.
and i am guessing you bring up "guardian angels" and "age of accountability" because of "born again" doctrines of TWi and ilk,
and the obvious trouble they cause in how we try to reconcile God's grace and eternal life for the innocent death and victims of crime and such
i think a huge problem is in our modern magic/mythic "born again" doctrine...
maybe start deconstructing that, and the other things may start falling into place too
but i will say that it seems that "guardian angels" and capacities that come with the various stages of life ("age of accountability") are quite important and valid and do have rich historic applications in "the art of dying"
though i dont know if this is the right thread, or if i am up to the task of digging into it right now. But i can suggest looking into jewish thought on angels for a more "biblical" view.
and i hope my previous comments helped clarify what is meant by "art of dying" a bit more
You want a TECHNICAL explanation, from what I see.
I shall do my best to answer correctly and briefly.
Here's the verses usually used:
I Corinthians 15 (various verses) (NASB)
20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
35But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?"
36You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;
37and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.
38But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.
39All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.
40There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42So also is the resurrection of the dead It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL " The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
47The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
48As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
49Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
55"O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?"
I Thessalonians 4 doesn't provide any insight to this.
As I see it, the living bodies receive a physical upgrade. Its capabilities will be enhanced. Either a side-effect of that, or some
other enhancements will match us to Jesus' resurrected body. That will include human appearance still, and some sort of
teleportation ability like he showed.
Each upgrade/transformation will be a miracle.
So, I can discuss small amounts of WHAT but not HOW, except to say "miraculously."
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year2027
God first
Beloved Captain
God loves you my dear friend
first of all Rapture is not in God's word
but we are talking about leaving this earth
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
and
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
these is what you are talking about my friend
the power of God's love
but adams and matter are not transform but what is the conscience of each person that which makes you, you
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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cheranne
a song by BLONDIE called RAPTURE
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WordWolf
You want a TECHNICAL explanation, from what I see.
I shall do my best to answer correctly and briefly.
Here's the verses usually used:
I Corinthians 15 (various verses) (NASB)
20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
35But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?"
36You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;
37and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.
38But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.
39All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.
40There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42So also is the resurrection of the dead It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL " The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
47The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
48As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
49Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
55"O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?"
I Thessalonians 4 doesn't provide any insight to this.
As I see it, the living bodies receive a physical upgrade. Its capabilities will be enhanced. Either a side-effect of that, or some
other enhancements will match us to Jesus' resurrected body. That will include human appearance still, and some sort of
teleportation ability like he showed.
Each upgrade/transformation will be a miracle.
So, I can discuss small amounts of WHAT but not HOW, except to say "miraculously."
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year2027
God first
Beloved WordWolf
God loves you my dear friend
first let me say I enjoy your understanding of "TECHNICAL explanation" of the Rapture
but saying "I Thessalonians 4 doesn't provide any insight to this" is like saying the love of Christ does not add to the love of God
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
but
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
adds to the picture painted in our minds
as do the verses you added
In 1 Corinthians 15 we see it talking about "corruptible must put on incorruption" but 1 Thessalonians 4 we see the corruptible = dead in Christ
we allso see in 1 Corinthians 15 "mortal must put on immortality" but 1 Thessalonians 4 we see the mortal = we which are alive
then we see your verse 1 Corinthians 15:23 "But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming," telling me not all at one "twinkling of an eye" but each having their own order or many "twinkling of an eye" or many returns of Christ
then there verses like Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."
because the malefactor could not changed until Christ did first so his conscience could not receive a new body yet because he would die before Christ won over death so the malefactor wait for Jesus to become Christ before he could leave the earth
otherwise his conscience must stray in paradise a place God has prepared for men of old conscience to wait until Jesus became Christ by winning over death
then the malefactor a dead in christ could put on incorruption
We are alive in Christ and once we are made alive spiritual death is just a stage we overcome at our personal last trump = last breath
this way we can see how Matthew 27:52- 53 fits together with it all
Matthew 27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
which goes with Ezekiel 37:12-14 "Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
the dead in Christ which are the corruptible who have put on incorruption is past tense
done happen
but has for technical explanation it can not be given because no verse explains it completly like a "miraculously." act like you have said
because conscience can not be measure nor is it matter of any kind
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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bliss
How is this to be done?????
Why not answer the first question, which is HOW did God create matter, atoms, energy when he created the heavens and the earth?
If you can answer that, then you could answer this ''rapture'' question. I mean, if we can't get this right, all else fails us.
God isn't a magician with a formula. That is what we did and wanted in the Way. Everything had to "make sense'' to our human minds.
Personally, I don't believe in a so called rapture (not the one you described), but I do believe we will all be changed.(put on immortality etc...)
God is bigger than our human minds can comprehend. He exists beyond/outside our ''knowledge''.
To me, what matters is that He will/can do this, not how does He do it. (*forgive me sounding like your WC leadership* yikes**)
I have a friend who was in missions in an African villiage in the 60's .
These people had NO CONCEPT of what ice was. NONE.
He tried and tried to explain that where he was from people could skate on sheets of ice, eat ice and that is would snow from the sky.
The Africans could not believe it. They had never seen it or experienced it. It was outside of their knowledge.
Did ice exist? Of course. But to them, they just couldn't believe//comprehend it.
A few years go by and my friend got a small refrigerator from town with one of those little ice compartments.
Brought it to the villiage and showed them filling it up with water and then waiting a few hours for it to freeze.
Those villagers thought he was a magic man for sure.
I guess my point is really, that there are things we aren't going to ever know about God, unless He reveals them to us.
It doesn't make things less real. They are just not real to us right now.
Whatever/however He does this matter, energy change thing, it is going to be so awesome! So awesome that right now I don't think we could comprehend it.
excuse the long ramble :blink:
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Sunnyfla
That was great Bliss,
That took care a lot of my issues.
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year2027
God first
Beloved (.'-:|:- ~b*l*i*s*s~ -:|:-) or bliss
God loves you my dear friend
I too enjoy your reply and the wisdom mix with love you shared with us thanks
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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brideofjc
Bliss,
YOU STOLE MY THUNDER!
That's pretty close to what I was going to say, minus the African village.
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socks
That about says it for me, Captain. I'm reminded of an old, old and I mean OLD Steve Martin routine, off his first album of stuff I think - where he talks about a new book "How to Make a Million Dollars in Real Estate".....
"First, get a million dollars...now then....!"
He says it really fast, so it's funny.
There are clearly sources of energy in the "known" universe that could be harnessed to do something like this, on the surface. But even if I took that and extrapolated it out to a huge transformation, it still wouldn't account for the unknowns - like how - actually how - are the dead rejoined, reconstituted, brought back into a state of awareness that takes into account 1 of two scenarios (or more I suppose) - that they've been residing in some state somewhere and are brought back into a single time and location together - and/or 2, they've been completely non-existent as hmmm...maybe call them singluar instances of life - and need to be brought back to "life" in a way that would probably qualify as a "new creation", based on the old one, but different.
Matter and atoms, stuff, is conceivable. Spirit isn't, by definition. "Pneuma" - like "wind". Wind has components that make it a force. I couldn't tell you what components make up spirit though. Life is funny - here today, gone tomorrow. The known components fail. If that's all there is, there's probably a 1,000 reasonable possiblities of "how" your question could be accomplished. It's back to the Steve Martin routine - God's God. He'll just make new bodies. How? Like He did the first time. How'd He do that? Good question.
But the awarness, the personality, the non-repeatable, unique and singlular identity of a person - wazzat?
I don't see matter being converted to "spirit", that's about all I could say. Corruptible putting on incorruption - if there's a conversion chart for it I'll leave it to you to cast some light on that topic. I'd love to hear what your ideas are.
Frankly, I'm hoping I get a little less matter showing up at that point anyway. Maybe someone else could use some. They're welcome to some of mine.
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waysider
"Brother Thomas will be there, without a doubt."
HaHa! Couldn't resist.
That's a line from an old Phil Keaggy(Glass Harp) song.
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Ham
some beliefs would suggest He spread a bit of himself around, so to speak..
Makes as much sense as anything else..
I've heard other opinions. He gave some of his life for this creation to form..
first the withdrawl of divine light, then "things" kinda precipitated..
string theory may partly agree with this. We have basically three dimensions that survived when whatever happened happened.. along with time of course.. at least three dimensions that are intact, unbroken..
I think that bits of him were left floating around so to speak.. for a lot longer than what some may think..
I think we've been around for a long, long, long time..
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T-Bone
Great posts all, they've got me thinking about a few things. How God created the cosmos, superstring theories, matter cannot be created or destroyed, and physical versus spiritual bodies…All speculation here – but fun stuff to think about, for sure!
God's Power to bind and to loose
Ages ago I read a small book – I think it was by a physicist – the book was The Atom Speaks or something like that. From what I remember, he described the incredible amount of energy in an atom of helium. The helium atom has two protons in the nucleus and two electrons around it. Like poles repel – yet the nucleus of helium with two protons stays intact. There is a strong force that is powerful enough to overcome the electrostatic repulsion between these like-charged protons. I remember a vivid description from this book – if we took the two protons and placed them at opposite ends of the earth – they would still exert a repelling force against each other of some 15 pounds [something like that if memory serves me right]. Imagine the amount of force needed to hold these two protons together!
Now, we've been talking about just ONE atom here…think about the power to create all matter and energy! It also makes me think of Colossians 1:17 NASB, "He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." I can't even begin to conceive of the amount of power God exerted in Genesis 1:1 creating the heavens and the earth!
On the flip side of that – check out II Peter 3:10-13 speaking of the Day of the Lord, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat. One could interpret this as an atomic reaction at a cosmic level – God who bound everything together…now sets it all loose…to re-do it all…verse 13 does mention His promise of making a new heaven and earth…Now some things to think about - - the transformation of people to inhabit this new world. Which brings us to…
Something old, something new
Like everyone else on this thread – I can see from Scripture that certain things will happen – but cannot speak of how they will happen. I find it intriguing that it seems our natural bodies are somehow linked to our future spiritual bodies. I know scientists say matter cannot be created or destroyed – and really that's only man's viewpoint. I imagine God can do whatever He wants…..
And what if…God has this whole thing worked out to such a minute personal detail – that He even re-constitutes our earthly vessels into new bodies. How hard is it for God to alter the molecular structure of something [whether scattered ashes, rotting bones in a grave or living tissue] so that it has totally different properties and capabilities?
Maybe this is so obvious to most folks – but this thread really got me thinking our current body has something to do with the future one. I read I Corinthians 15 in that light. I also thought about the obvious – Jesus Christ was raised from the dead…His body wasn't found. He took it with Him…but it was dramatically altered, of course.
Dimensions
I feel I've rambled on way too long – so I'll keep it brief here. My curiosity about our new bodies has led me to check out superstring theories and the nature of the cosmos. I've got 2 links below where I posted some stuff on this – but for this post I'd like to wrap it up by submitting an idea about the relationship of the physical and spiritual realm [again some of this I addressed in more detail on the links below].
It's possible that the difference between the physical world and the spiritual world is one of dimensions. And perhaps the terms "physical" and "spiritual" may be a little misleading. I think I had a fuzzy idea of the spiritual realm being a wispy world, dreamlike, like a ghost world – nothing of any real substance. But consider how Christ interacted with our world in His new body [again, discussed in the links below]. This superstring theory stuff has me thinking the spiritual realm does not exist in another space or time…not superimposed on our world…maybe wrapped up together with it…a convoluted tapestry of dimensions. At present, we are only aware of three…visualize how dimensions can be hidden by thinking of an 8 ½ inch by 11 inch piece of paper. Looking at it head on – you see its width and height and if there's anything written on it. But if I rotated the paper 90 degrees – all you'd see is the thin edge of the paper. And if I backed away from you – eventually you would not be able to see that thin edge.
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=296926
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=297316
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Sunesis
Very nice T-Bone! Ever since I read Christ say that in his Father's house were many mansions years ago as a youth, I always thought that meant another dimension. The many mansions, or rooms, were different places and dimensions.
I think when mankind someday sees Christ revealed when he comes in glory, it will be like a limosine with dark windows, when the windows roll down, you see the occupants. I think someday, the sky will roll open and part and the whole world - every human being all over the world, will see his face and will know - he has always been here. Now, though, the window is rolled up, we see through a glass darkly... Thus, men scoff and mock and say - where is he?
I believe we will need a new body because the heavens are "heavier" matterwise than here. I sometimes wonder if our world is not the ghostly, wispy world. I say that because, for example, have you ever drive through fog? Its dark and dense, has a form, and is real. But, because we are heavier than it, we pass right through it easily.
We know Christ passed right through walls, appeared in rooms in the midst, etc. In other words, he was able to pass right through things because they were as fog to him, his resurrected body was different - heavier somehow. A wall to him is as fog to us.
Who knows how our bodies will be changed, or those bodies of those who are dead. I imagine we'll find out soon enough.
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socks
Some interesting stuff. Any of this ring your bell, C.S.?
I had a side note scratching at my fiddle, need to get it out. I think asking your average Way Corps leadership a question like this could be dicey, I can see that. Unless they'd looked into out of personal interest there'd be no background or information for them to draw on. In fact most people probably don't think about it much, which is fine IMO. It is interesting to consider though, again IMO.
Roy's hit the nail on it - metrics. If we don't have the means to measure all of the elements and components involved, like "conscience", which I think means consciousness, awareness, the indvidual life - then we're outside looking in. Descriptors, we have some. Analysis though - limited. Real knowledge or understanding, next to zip.
We could say such and such will happen, and postulate it could happen by such and such means, but that's not the same as what I think you're asking. Describing the event is different than describing how it occurs.
Like graves. Not everyone's ever been buried in a grave and most that are can be found today all but decomposed. Unfortunately death comes to many in very destructive ways. So the image of a collection of bones being remade into a new living being - even that's kind of Disney-ish. If graves means burial plots, a lot of the dead will be out of luck. Must mean more than that. So I dunno, I really don't. I think the topic does lend itself to a more manageable view of what happens to "us" after we die though and in turn what "llfe", the life of each person really is, although I say that with a big dose of "duh", as I'm playing out of my weight on this topic. But it's interesting.
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excathedra
skimmed..... as my sinful manner is..... i can't wait
--
ps. i had a dream last night where i was arguing whether my posts were in the 7000 or 70,000 range
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GrouchoMarxJr
I have a hard enough time trying to understand my tax forms. Does the caterpiller understand how he turns into a butterfly?
Being dead is about as helpless as anyone can be...it's entirely up to Him. I don't care how He does it as long as He does it... :)
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WordWolf
This is very interesting.
It's my personal opinion-based mainly on me just mulling it over- that the universe (which scientists say is
finite) is contained INSIDE of God (Who is Infinite), and He's ever-present because He coexists
alongside 3-dimensional matter everywhere in a fourth dimension,
just like a flat, 2-dimensional finite object (like, say, an index card)
can be completely encased with, and touched everywhere, by a three-dimensional object
(like, say, a jello mold the index card is suspended in.)
Then again,
Sunesis' idea may be better.
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bliss
Ahhhhhh, dimensions! cool stuff. Thanks T, Sunesis...
Funny, I have some family members from other dimensions........
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sirguessalot
The Rapture of the Church can best be describled as ....
...a product of the fantasies and fears in an era of unprecedented anxiety and terror of dying
...and a grave distortion of biblical content and the profound ignorance of the nature and history of human consciousness
...and a hint of racism embedded
it has become ever clearer to me
that the Bible is mostly a compilation of many eras of "jewish books of dying"
where notions such as "the coming of the lord" simply refers to one's ordinary death
although "death" is often also considered the same as "salvation," "enlightenment," "liberation," etc...
which can happen before we die...which is the ground of spiritual practice
which is the essence of the spiritual teachings of Jesus
and others
like ive said many times around here
there is a full spectrum of ways to interpret any single artifact
including biblical texts
and on a basic model of 7 steps, where "dying to egoic attachment to human form" starts at the 5th...
the rapture doctrines (PFAL or otherwise) fall somewhere between the 1st and 2nd (magic and myth)
although trying to rationalize the rapture doctrine is a sure sign of reaching for the 3rd (rational)
...but thats just one simple model
imho, the longer we try to justify the magical/mythical rapture doctrines
the less time we spend becoming wise to the nature of actual human transformation
essentially continuing our legacy of leaving entire generations of youth spiritually elderless
sorry if all this sounds harsh
but i dunno how else to say it any more via brief writing
and it seems as if many are running out of time
all space and grace...
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waysider
Interesting stuff, SirG.
What I am curious about(and please don't misinterpret this as skepticism), is how "the art of learning to accept death" fits with those who are never afforded that opportunity, such as those who die as newborns or those that have diminished mental capacity and so forth?
I know there are Biblical answers for those scenarios such as guardian angels and the age of accountability.
Maybe I just haven't read enough of your posts yet to see that angle.
Dunno.
Anyhow, I hope you will expound a bit more on this.
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sirguessalot
thanks waysider...and healthy skepticism is quite fine with me
lets see if i can answer without spiralling into some long unreadable scroll...
i'll start by pointing out that i am not speaking of "the art of learning to accepting death"...although that is certainly a vital part of it
but the actual art (i.e. discipline, act, science, etc...) of dying...literally...in terms of human consciousness
...the art of actually literally experiencing your true nature as it presently exists beyond the mortal human ego = "dying"
...
as it might relate to those who die young, or those who live a life of diminished capacity...
...we all end up in the same state of radical purity anyway...
and those who "die before they die" know this from experience, and cannot mourn loss the same way
...
re: biblical answers, guardian angels and the age of accountability...
determining (let alone communicating) what is authentically "biblical" is certainly a task...perhaps moreso today than ever.
and i am guessing you bring up "guardian angels" and "age of accountability" because of "born again" doctrines of TWi and ilk,
and the obvious trouble they cause in how we try to reconcile God's grace and eternal life for the innocent death and victims of crime and such
i think a huge problem is in our modern magic/mythic "born again" doctrine...
maybe start deconstructing that, and the other things may start falling into place too
but i will say that it seems that "guardian angels" and capacities that come with the various stages of life ("age of accountability") are quite important and valid and do have rich historic applications in "the art of dying"
though i dont know if this is the right thread, or if i am up to the task of digging into it right now. But i can suggest looking into jewish thought on angels for a more "biblical" view.
and i hope my previous comments helped clarify what is meant by "art of dying" a bit more
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waysider
Thanks for your response, SirG.
Sorry if it seemed like I was misquoting you.
I only used the quotation marks to indicate the meaning with which it struck me.
Roy has touched on this aspect as well.
Now I suppose I have to get off my butt and look at some of those older threads.
waysider
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Radar OReilly
Methinks the Jehovah Witnesses are back.
ror
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Captain Spiritural
Koool I can work with that thanxs
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