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The predator and prey


rascal
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...Hearing pawtuckets description of the creepy way the guy was eye balling women, knowing now, that it was a sexual thing, and the girls being unaware that the looks were anything other than the love of God, from a trusted father figure.

Gosh, I remember being so young and naieve, no wierwille didn`t try to get me...but I was once cornered by nasty old man in an authority position once. When I fled, when I told why to my boss...I was fired and then treated like I was a horrible person. People whom I had thought of as friends all turned their backs. I felt dirty and ashamed. I was so dissapointed in the man.

Now I am faced with a situation with my 19 year old daughter and she is the focus of a 60 some year old mans interests. This man is well thought of and respected, he is in a position of high authority. Moral.... upstanding, beyond reproach...UNTILL he wanted my 19 year old to be *his lady* No he isn`t doing anything technically wrong, his wife just left him...and I really don`t feel like it will be an issue after this.

.

But the thing is....it brings home how totally offensive and completely innapropriate what wierwille did, and taught his leaders to do :(

The differences between my kiddo and the strength that she shows...and me...(so many of us), and how I handled it 30 years ago makes me proud. But then again my kiddo grew up totally different than I did.

I just know that for the young girl, for the one whom is seeking love, and approval, the girl whom has grown up without guidance ...the girl whom is completely oblivious to sexual attention...sigh it is very disturbing and confusing to like and respect someone, to interact and care for...to respect as an authority figure....to suddenly find oneself viewed as a sexual object is shocking.

When the lady on the interview talks about having those boundaries erased by previous sexual inapropriatness...it put several pieces of the puzzle together and is even more upsetting..

I mean it brought back how unwanted sexual attention from an innapropriate source.....you know it is wrong, it is frightening, it is disgusting and creepy, you are so deeply ashamed, but it is so hard to stand up for yourself, to tell the one making the advances stop......you tell yourself that you are simply misunderstanding his intentions, ... untill maybe it is too late...when you stand up and say no...if you do...it eats you up inside...you feel stupid, you feel ugly ...you wonder what you did wrong to give the impression that you wanted that kind of attention. You don`t want them to be mad at you, you don`t want them to not like you any more :(

Sexual predators get this I guess...and hearing the accounts where wierwille promised to heal sexual abuse victims ... hearing how he targetted victims of abuse....how he cornered girls and had sex with them after they had been given drinks that put them out...are all the more upsetting...how vindictive he was when refused...destroying reputation and alienating from family....doing everything in his power to hurt, like some petulant 2 yr old.

I guess I want to say that for a woman...it ISN`T flattering, It IS a big deal, and it ISN`T something that someone likes to talk about....no young girl wants the attentions of an old man....it makes you ashamed and eats you up inside....it doesn`t go away...whether you actually had sex or were just pressured and had to flee.

God, to present ones self as a minister, to present ones self as the man of God with all answers to life and Godliness, to lower womens guard by presenting ones self as a loving grandfather figure, someone safe, their wisdom promises to help one overcome all of the obstacles that have been placed in their path....to target those already vulnerable, to me is so deeply offensive. To seemingly have God`s backing and seal of approval all complete with scriptural back up....is absolutely sickening. It is so much more damnable than your run of the mill sexual predator.

To minimalize the many many accounts of all of this, and claim as folks have that it wasn`t so bad because we all sin, that vp taught us the word and we need to forgive, that we need to not talk about this stuff, to claim that we should have just walked away, there were no weapons held to our head etc. is just so wrong.

This isn`t just about sexual abuse either. My disgust and anger is about everything that was taken from so many many of us, so much suffering, so many destroyed at the hands of this man and his ministry :(

I feel like commenting on so much of this incident. First off, this supposedly respectable man is no better than vpw was in my opinion. This old guy looked on your sweet daughter with lust, then had the audacity to approach you for your consent for him to take her for "his lady"? Doesn't "his lady" mean he wants her for his own, as in sexually? He didn't ask you for your permission to ask her hand in marriage, which would have still been out of line, but not quite as revolting as to say he wants her for "his lady".

Didn't he say when you asked how old he thought she was that he thought she was 16 or 17? Here in America, sex between a 60 year old and a minor (16 and 17 year olds are considered minors in America) IS ILLEGAL. People that get caught doing that end up on sexual predator lists for the remainder of their lives. THIS MAN you're trying to find good in is a pig. He may be a high ranking black belt pig, but he's a pig nonetheless. He's every bit as disgusting as vpw from what I see of this story.

This man is NOT MORAL, is NOT UPSTANDING, is NOT BEYOND REPROACH. Yes, he DID DO SOMETHING TECHNICALLY WRONG - He is in America where it is ILLEGAL and IMMORAL and PUNISHABLE BY IMPRISONMENT followed by LIFELONG REQUIRED REPORTING OF WHERE THEY LIVE - FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES. That's because what they do when not watched at least that closely is they OFFEND AGAIN AND AGAIN - in this case the offense is sex with minors.

That his wife recently left him doesn't give him any leeway to maybe just sort of test the waters and see how you would react. Apparently he figured there was at least a 50% chance that you'd allow him his revolting request. This man's wife probably left him for a good reason. I wouldn't be surprised if she became aware that he was interested in sex with children and was mortified, because it IS THAT OFFENSIVE. THIS MAN is at least a wannabe pedophile, if not a pedophile that simply hasn't been caught YET.

This guy being a "respected guest instructor" puts him in that same place of authority over you, your kids that are in the program - everyone in contact with him in the scenario you describe. This is the exact same thing as the leaders of twi forcing our sisters in Christ to have sex with them that you're shouting from rooftops against.

I pray that you told your husband about this and he doesn't think the best thing to do is consider what's going on in this guy's life and figuring he's not technically doing anything wrong and concluding that there's no danger here.

At this point he may not molest your child, and I do thank God for that, but I see no reason to think he won't move on to another innocent young girl and hope for a different answer from her mother. I pray that mother will call the law in and stop him before he actually does make physical contact with his intended.

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I just did a quick google search on statuatory rape laws in TN

Here's what I found right off the bat:

Statutory rape is now defined as unlawful sexual penetration between the defendant and victim when the victim is between thirteen and fifteen years old and the defendant is four years older or when the victim is between fifteen and eighteen years old and the defendant is five years older. Mitigated statutory rape occurs when the victim is between fifteen and eighteen years old and the defendant is between four and five years older than the victim. Aggravated statutory rape occurs when the victim is between the ages of 13 and 18 and the defendant is at least 10 years older. (Tenn. Code Ann 39-13-506 2006)

I'm aware that your daughter is 19, so a legal adult.

The point as I see it is that this guy wanted her thinking she was under 18. IF she had been under 18 and IF you had consented to her becoming "his lady" and they had sex, this law would apply.

Minors can not consent to sex legally.

Parents can give consent for their children to marry, but then they're no longer considered minors and sex between them and their lawful spouse would be legal.

The scenario he was trying to get you to allow would be illegal. That is immoral and not respectable, no matter how you look at it, and the fact that he's a high-ranking whatever, just makes it worse.

Edited by bowtwi
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I agree completely Bow...I said that he was moral upright and so forth UNTILL he wanted my daughter for *his lady*

Technicaly...ie legally what he did is not wrong. Moraly, it was inapropriate. He will not be allowed access to her. And finally, from a parents point of view inexcusable and deeply offensive. Yes, I told Mark, I also told the other parents in class, and I told the teacher. There are no other girls besides mine.

I agree, it was repulsive, and inapropriate. It has been addressed. The man is being carefully watched. He isn`t permited alone with any of the students.

Jesse never even had to speak to him....I don`t know what else one can do. I didn`t go into the full details because the focus of my thoughts were on how repulsive it is for a man in authority, one who masquerades as someone worthy of respect, gains respect, and then betrays that trust.

That wierwille did it as a minister with scriptures even more so :(

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The scariest part I see here is that this man seems to have thought that if he could have gotten your consent to take who he thought was your underage daughter and have sex with her, that you wouldn't have been able to report him, cause you'd be as guilty as he. Smacks so much of the lockbox crap of the way.

Fortunately, you didn't go along with his plan. Fortunately, you were smarter than he figured you'd be so you didn't become his accomplice. Who knows how far he would have gone if he thought you'd allow it? You have other, younger daughters...

This is such a huge example of how very diligent we have to be with our precious children these days. It's not just the supposed Christian leaders, it's people in positions of authority anywhere, everywhere. It's even women teachers molesting young boys who think they're big macho studs by getting physical with the "hot babe" teachers.

As the mother of an 11 year old, this stuff scares the hell out of me. I appreciate the reminder to remain ever watchful more than I can express.

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That wierwille did it as a minister with scriptures even more so :(

I know that this forum is "About the Way" and GSC is about "The other side of the story...", but in this matter I'm gonna say - don't stop at VP. I don't see the "even more so." I don't see a real difference between a minister using the scriptures to manipulate a person and an instructor using his respected status to manipulate. In both cases a person's sense of security and self worth are being manipulated.

A minister with scriptures - any minister - would be reprehensible.

A teacher, instructor, military leader, politician, boss, man, woman, butcher, baker, candlestick maker are all wrong, all in the same boat of farging sick bastages.

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Great thread.

A few thoughts. How does this not happen much in traditional churches. Simple on the board of directors of a church, the minister is not the one in charge. Quite the opposite, the minister is accountable to the board. Called checks and balances. That was the fatal error in TWI and in the offshoots, like CES/STFI the "Man of God" is also the head of the board. Wierwille was accountable to no one. He set the rules for himself and the rules for those on the board.

Another thing that I have been thinking about a lot lately. Much was taught on how the followers should treat the "Man of God". Little was taught on how the "Man of God" was responsible to the followers.

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I agree completely Bow...I said that he was moral upright and so forth UNTILL he wanted my daughter for *his lady*

I need to make one more point.

This man was NEVER morally upright.

He was only "morally upright" in your eyes because the sheep's clothing had not yet slipped to reveal the slime inside.

He was hiding behind his reputation. He was hoping that your radar was down. His moral depravity showed it's face when he asked you for the permission to make your daughter "his lady." At *best* that can mean that he wanted to court her. At worst - well - you get the picture, and it ain't pretty. No matter what, the guy believed he was asking for something that was completely inappropriate.

He was hiding behind his status just like VP hid, just like lcm hid, just like so many others hid.

I'm not saying this to only you, Rascal. I'm saying this because it's so easy to not see the crap that can get dumped at our doorstep.

Edited by doojable
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This isn`t just about sexual abuse either. My disgust and anger is about everything that was taken from so many many of us, so much suffering, so many destroyed at the hands of this man and his ministry

And so, you have said that you you are not affected by this anymore, this stuff that happened so many years ago, and that you are only shouting it out to help others. But your statement here which includes the word "is" (which is highlighted in bold print) does, grammatically speaking, indicate "present tense". Present tense anger, which is to be put away with all malice, according to Ephesians. This is to me, what is so terrible about this constantly stirred pot of anger, vengeance, and anxiety, resulting in continued suffering.

This continued "keeping the water pot on the red hot burner" with the pressure release valve of the tea pot whistling and screeching and in a constant state of high pressure, is, I believe, very detrimental. Detrimental not only to the one whistling forth that high pressure (which is, of course, one's prerogative), but also, and unfairly detrimental to those who are subjected to it. And I mean this respectfully. I like to think of forgiveness as a form of a "mental pressure release valve". Oh well, just food for thought. Cheerio!

Edited by Jonny Lingo
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To constantly harp at people to forgive forgive seems pretty pointless to me. Forced, fake forgiveness demonstrated by shushing up about evil done --to those who don't feel the happy happy joy joy about a subject --seems quite like in TWI when certain emotions like fear or grief were by all means not expressed. WHat kind of salesman for the TRUTH would you be if you were'n't all smiles and triumph all the time.

How many people in TWI have been through tremendous pain while putting on their happy fake face? And really, how healthy is that?

Of course, it was easier to just ignore people's actual pain, as if that would make it go away. Fake it until you make it. Or just shut up about it to avoid the reproof and correction.

The doctrine of believing = receiving--negative thoughts would bring ruin! Don't you dare! Control your thinking, control your mouth! might play into some of this. But that is a doctrinal belief certainly not assumed to be true by everyone on GSC.

Plus, people can tell if someone really cares about the quality of their life, or just wants them to hush up because they are an irritant. It shows in how they treat you.

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A man convinced against his will is not convinced. ~ Peter J. Lawrence

I'd say that in this instance the emphasis has to be on not forgetting the lessons we learn.

I don't see how forgiveness is at the crux of the matter here. It's a separate issue.

IMHO

It may be food for thought - but perhaps the wrong food for the moment.

Edited by doojable
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Well really, I believe that forgiveness is the "pressure relief valve", but that aside, it is also, in my opinion, fairly criminal to continue stirring the pot, and awakening negative situations in peoples' pasts, when they had laid them to rest a long time ago. I know that it happened to me after I came here, and no doubt it has happened to many who came here and "resurrected their past" by reading of the continuous repeating of "destroyed lives", etc, etc. And so, while Rascal shouts it from the roof tops about the "destroyed lives", I prefer to continue to speak of the thing that I believe will heal people of the very negative situations that they experienced while in The Way, namely, Forgiveness and moving on with Life. I believe that this is the High Road, and not The Low. That's fair enough, isn't it? I mean, it is a free country, with freedom of speech still prevailing, right? Rascal is way more than entitled to speak her mind on this subject, and conversely, so am I. And so, I do, just as she, and those of her persuasion do.

And don't get me wrong. I do believe it right and proper to expose the wrongs done by TWI. I just believe in a different way to deal with it after the facts have been laid bare. That's okay for me to believe that, right? Okay to talk about it, right?

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Well Jonny, but in this thread - where Rascal was approached by a man with totally inappropriate intentions... in this thread - the most germane thought is one of learning from the past. In this case, it is totally appropriate to remember the lessons learned and use it in another situation.

Would you not agree with this assessment?

Of course, you can believe what you want and talk about what you want. You're an adult. I assume that you will allow me to believe that your post was a bit off topic and talk about that in turn.

Food for thought...

Edited by doojable
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now i remember why i was laughing because it was so GREAT to hear don39 tell it like it is and then i got sad thinking about it all....

pawtucket said

Another thing that I have been thinking about a lot lately. Much was taught on how the followers should treat the "Man of God". Little was taught on how the "Man of God" was responsible to the followers.

i like that. i even like little bottles of 7-up !!!!

so much of this discussion is common sense, but for some reason for cultheads it's not that way

dear jonny, your talk about forgiving and moving on doesn't quite wash with me

you seem to equate talking or not talking with the other

but do you really know what's in my head / "heart" to coin an old wayfer term ?

i don't think so

may i plagarzie (sp?) don't worry be happy (aka don39) peace.....

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I dooj, I am aware of that, and am in agreement..... I thought people understood that I was talking about the perception of being moraly upright and respected.....sigh....My thoughts were going in another direction so I only briefly touched on this other issue.

Jonny, heres food for thought..... You have been mistaken in your perceptions of people, their motives and the points that they were trying to make before. Is it possible that you are mistaken about what is occuring here and underestimating it`s value?

Just food for thought.

Edited by rascal
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Forgiveness may be a beautiful topic, but it is no cloak of invisibility.

God may forgive many things. King David comes to mind; but David still bore

consequences for wrongs he did (Bathsheba? . . . the child died. Or the census?

. . . tens of thousands of Israel died.) He may have been forgiven, but part of the

consequence he bore is also that these things be recorded in scripture for all to see.

Forgiveness does not automatically mean secrecy, no matter how much forgetting you want to put with it.

TWI also taught little about justice.

So Rock On (Rascal, Dooj, Bramble, Paw and others. . .).

Jonny. . . forgive me?

wing.

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Great thread.

A few thoughts. How does this not happen much in traditional churches. Simple on the board of directors of a church, the minister is not the one in charge. Quite the opposite, the minister is accountable to the board. Called checks and balances. That was the fatal error in TWI and in the offshoots, like CES/STFI the "Man of God" is also the head of the board. Wierwille was accountable to no one. He set the rules for himself and the rules for those on the board.

Another thing that I have been thinking about a lot lately. Much was taught on how the followers should treat the "Man of God". Little was taught on how the "Man of God" was responsible to the followers.

Wow a very good point. There were some really great people in twi that tried to make a difference, but because of the way the organization was set up....they never had a chance to fix it. It was my (vic`s) way or the high way. :(

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Jonny - your first post here in this thread was just a few posts ago. The whole thread is less than a week old.

I don't understand the reason for your point. You never addressed the subject - you only said that the predator should be forgiven.

Did you think it was appropriate to warn the instructor and the parents? If you believe it was, and then to find a way to forgive him...well that would be in line with your way of thinking - I think.

***************************************************************************

Oh and if there are many posters and lurkers out there that are really afraid of reprisal - then may I remind you that this is cyberspace. There may be people here that disagree with you and disagree loudly, but in the end that's it - we disagree.

I for one tend to believe that it is possible to forgive someone that doesn't ask to be forgiven. I've stated it before. I just don't see how it is appropriate to this thread.

Edited by doojable
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Jonny - your first post here in this thread was just a few posts ago. The whole thread is less than a week old.
I was speaking of the two threads combined in that they are closely related. I should think that you are bright enough to understand that. I actually mentioned both threads, if you'll recall. Within the scope of the last two weeks, both threads have in fact been discussed, no? Yes. And in the opening post, there is mention of The Way and VP. Here, it's the last paragraph in the first post of this thread. Read it for yourself:
This isn`t just about sexual abuse either. My disgust and anger is about everything that was taken from so many many of us, so much suffering, so many destroyed at the hands of this man and his ministry

And so, I was commenting on that aspect of this thread. No foul there. But don't worry Dooj, I just deleted the majority of that last post since it seemed offensive to you.

Now, back to the thread. Have at it.

Edited by Jonny Lingo
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Jonny - I wasn't offended at all. I thought that I worded my post in such a way as to bridge some thoughts. The thread had obviously taken a turn and I failed to see that you were bringing it back around to the original post - maybe because the turn it had taken seemed more necessary to address.

And even if I had been offended - so what? I didn't yell or come off as smearing you. I felt that you might have had more to say about self-defense. Given one of your most recent posts on the "Forgiveness.." thread I thought you might even agree with a lot of the sentiments here. (The one where you agree with DWBH about certain leaders...)

i knew both john shroyer and wayne clapp during my time in twi......... they knew about the lies, the sexual and financial misconduct, the defamation of those who were speaking out about what really went on "behind the scenes" at hq and around the world..........yet, they chose to stick with the liars and the thieves!..........why??

when king okie's loyalty letter went out in march of 1989, both shroyer and clapp willfully chose to "stand" with martindale against geer, and all the rest of the "cop-outs"..........they rose to positions of leadership prominience in the early and mid-1990's.........during a time when king okie pushed twi into the horrors of the "prevailing word in the promised land of the present truth".........which included the infamous "homo purge", absolutely no debt, and the glorious practice of marking and avoiding hapless believers while the dancing prez and his boyz were sexin' it up with any women in the kingdom they desired and badmouthing the rest of the world!.........wayne clapp was running the family corps at rome city for several of those years!.......he was one of martindale's staunchest supporters!........how many humans did he and fern "help" at the behest of martindale? or moynihan?...........how many orders did wayne faithfully carry out which inflicted serious spiritual and psychoemotional harm upon human beings??..........how many lies about former leaders in twi did the clapps joyully pass along to twi followers?.........how many people have they sought out to apologize to for their shameful actions??

I gotta say, I completely agree with this also. I couldn't fathom how anyone would stick around during that time. I and a small group of "reactionaries" in the DC Limb were spied on, black balled, and shat upon by thosew ho stayed in. But I must say, it was just so nice to say, "AMF! Adios Mother fu..ers, I mean, Adios My Friends!" But of course, it was a time of mental turmoil and upheaval.

And so, what. It took Martindale getting caught and convicted in a law suit for screwin someone else's wife to cause them to finally get "revelation" or whatever and say; "Oh geez, looks like things are off the Word here. Time to go". WTF? What kind of morons were those guys anyway? Real spiritual "sharpies" huh? Sharp my a$$. Dullards more like. So, was it Craig getting caught and "outed" within TWI that convinced them to leave? Or, was it the Conviction and subsequent Public "outing" of his crimes that was "too much for them to bear", that caused them to go packing a few miles down that Ohio highway? And ya know, I have been in contact with some of the CFS-ers, and I never got an apology. It was just like; "Blesha! How ya been? Ya oughta come down for one of our functions!" No, I'd never participate in any of their crapola. It's all just the same 'ol same 'ol no doubt. No, I'm staying up here in Alaska...

Like I said, you're an adult. You can post what you want, where you want and as you want.

As long as people are reading any of these posts, there will be agreement and disagreement.

Edited by doojable
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