I never heard of it, but it does sound interesting. Women and children were pretty much exploited throughout that century.
I sometimes think the history of women's issues, the socalled "glass ceiling" etc. is one big reason why Hillary Clinton is so popular among some women.
Not that this is all history - remember those images a few years back of the women of Kabul in their blue and black whatevers (the name escapes me since I always thought of them as "baggies." Denied even medical care, since they were only permitted to be examined by female physicians, and females were denied an education, so they couldn't go to medical school and become women's doctors.
Some of this was in the name of religion. One of the "good gals" in the fight was Queen Victoria. When ether came along as a general anesthetic, and was recommended for women in labor and childbirth, many theologians had snit fits. Does the Bible not state in Genesis that women MUST suffer during childbirth because of the sin of Eve? "Nonsense!" said Her Majesty. She was the mother of quite a few children and thought anything to relieve the pain of delivering one of them was a great idea.
Not that this is all history - remember those images a few years back of the women of Kabul in their blue and black whatevers (the name escapes me since I always thought of them as "baggies.
I understand that this thing against women is not just a thing of the past. That's why I said "Western women". And, those things women have to wear in countries under Islamic "Sharia Law"? They are called "burkhas". To me, it makes them all look like "Cousin It" from the Adams Family...
And cool! I did not know that about Queen Victoria. Good for her by George...
The "Bread and Roses" strike of 1912.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45b/073.html-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WOw. Awesome vid clip Waysider. I would suppose that these women were some of the "suffragettes"? I know that the time period was well before WW II in that clip, but a picture of "Rosie The Riveter" seemed like it would have fit in that scheme as well. But I know she came later. Yeah, it is just astounding how men back in those days treated women. Makes ya kind of sick to think about it.
Have any of you ever heard of the "Sing Song Girls?" During the 1898 Alaska gold rush when people flocked to Skagway (just up the sea's Inside Passage from me by ninety miles), there seemed to be a lack of whores for the men. There were in fact some very hearty and tough gals who plied their trade in a whore house known as the Red Onion Saloon. These were mostly European women, and the Madames did do their best to make sure that the women were treated fairly decently and also earned a fair wage. I have been to this whore house, but only to dine on pizza, beer, and take the tour of the "upper rooms" which is where the action used to take place. A friend of mine is the Madame there during tourist season. She goes by the handle of "Madame Spitfire", and looks really cool in her "period costume", and so do the rest of the girls! But I digress...
And so, because there wasn't enough whores for the men, some business guy, seeing a demand for this trade, brought up some fifty or more Chinese women in a number of wagons with bars on them (via ship), to Skagway. These women lived in outdoor cages in the spring summer and fall, and were required to "sing out" to attract the men. When a "man" selected one, he took her inside a hotel type building to be abused and the woman was put back in her cage after the deed was done. They were sad, lonely, cold and in pain and agony, poorly fed, and their "singing out" was a mournful sound, as has been recorded historically.
"Sing song!Sing song. Sing song...." :(
And so, the sing song girls, as they wore out and died, were simply replaced by newer versions until they too wore out, got sick and died. And all along, these women had been ripped from their families after arriving in this far away land, and then treated worse than dogs to die a sad and lonely death in a cold and strange place, never receiving any recompense for their forced services. It just made me sick when I read a historical account of it when I was staying at a bed and breakfast in Skagway a few years ago when doing a late winter construction project. Hard to believe that men could act that way or stand by and watch other men treat fellow humans that way. It seems that mankind's capacity for evil is downright extraordinary. And yet, no doubt many of the men who purchased these Sing Song Girls had wives and children somewhere else in the world, waiting for them to come back home with the Gold...
Thanks for that background on The Sing-Song Girls.
There is a link above the vid-clip that gives some information regarding the "Bread and Roses Strike of 1912".
Not all who died to make this country what it is today, did so on foreign soil.
Many brave souls stood the picket lines and sacrificed their safety, comfort, and even their very lives to bring about the changes that shaped our country into what it is today.
They did so because working conditions had become intolerable and inhumane.
Many of those brave souls were women, as evidenced by looking at the history of "The Bread and Roses Strike of 1912".
The advances for western women have been tremendous but still need to move forward some.
When my mother got married in 1948 she had to leave her job as they did not employ married women in permanent posts. Nonetheless she was retained by the same business for the next five years as a "temporary clerk" doing much the same job. Her employer? The railways, pretty much a nationalized organisation, not sure if it was at that time or became so later. Rising above a Clerk's job would have been unheard of.
WW1 was very good for women - it was after that that women were granted the vote because of their contribution to the war effort.
WW2 was also very good for women. That was when they had to do "responsible" jobs that had hitherto been thought only capable of being done by men and the glass ceiling began to crack.
Would be it equality - if men were kept in cages and taken out only to service women? If men could be sold and beaten up like some prostitutes? If men were subjected to the treatment that they subjected and sometimes still subject women to? If men had to go around wrapped in shrouds (burkhas) and were beaten if they did not? Would women stoop so low? Would men put up with what they had inflcited on women?
I remember in the mid-60's before I went back to college to get my degree, working in an office where the second in command needed a secretary. I was all set to apply for the promotion, as I was a lowly typist, but this guy told me "I don't hire young women for jobs like this. They get married and want to stay home in bed with their husbands, which means they end up getting pregnant, which means they have a baby and quit to take care of it." He hired a mid-50's widow and griped about her all the time. She couldn't do the work all that well, but she had no husband and no children at home. I didn't feel one bit sorry for him.
I was sexually harassed plenty of times on the job as a youth, including when I worked at a very prestigious medical center during my time in FLO. Some men seemed to think sexual favors were an unwritten given in the job description. At least that's changed now, at least I hope it has.
I do think there is a balance. A perfectly decent guy can get into trouble simply by saying "you look nice today." That's the other side of the coin.
My daughter works in what has been very traditionally a "man's job". She is a US Merchant Marine, and works in the engine room of one of the ships I used to work on as an engineer. An operating engineer that is. She stands engine room watches (starting up the huge engines, shutting them down, monitoring them while the ship is underway, etc) for six hours straight, and then has six hours off, and does this around the clock for her two weeks "on". That's twelve hours a day, seven days a week, eighty four hours a week, times two weeks. Then she gets to come home for her two weeks off. Her pay is exactly as much as anybody else's, and, she is making bank big time. She earns $3700.00 a month take home pay. The men with whom she works (many of whom are my old ship mates) treat her with dignity and respect. Oh, she's playboy bunny beautiful, and no doubt they appreciate that, but, she is very diligent to do her job, for, it is her commitment that nobody, man or woman is ever going to accuse her of "playing the chick card" to get out of hard work. If the boiler needs to be crawled into to have the boiler tubes cleaned (a job none of us ever liked to do, for you come out all black), she is the first to volunteer. And if she is ever accused of playing "the chick card", she has no doubt in her mind that she has done her absolute best. And consequently, her reputation is already steller. Yet she says; "But Dad, I don't really know that much! I'm not a great mechanic, and so many of those guys know so much more than me! They are such "motor heads"! And I tell her it may be true that you know less, but you are learning more each time you go out, and they all love you because you work hard and are unafraid to get up close and personal with the machinery. "That's how you learn. Your book learning License as an engineer is nothing more than a license to LEARN", I tell her. And so, yes, I am bragging a bit fore shore, but I know that none of this would be possible for her if it hadn't been for some of the great Women who blazed the way for women today. I am just thankful that she has taken full advantage of what is before her, and what this Great Country has made available to her. There is a common bumper sticker here in Alaska that is found on womens' cars and trucks:
"Alaska Girls Kick A$$!"
That's My Girl!
P.S.
She just got back from a five week "diving vacation" on Roatan Island off of the coast of Honduras. Roatan is one of the world's greatest scuba diving destinations. She went by herself, and had quite a time! She even went "zip lining" through the jungle tree tops! Okay, I really bragging now.....sorry :)
Good thread Jonny...the book sounds interesting and worth reading.
Reading this thread reminds me of a story that my dad used to tell me. My dad was born in 1908 ( I was the youngest)...and he grew up in the 20's. (He passed away in 2003 at the age of 95 and this coming March would have been his 100 birthday)...
Here's the story:
There was drunk who lived down the street on Lincoln Ave and every night he would come home drunk and beat his wife. She was often seen with black eyes and bruises...but of course in those days people "minded their own business" and didn't get involved with family matters...
...One night when he was out drinking, his wife poured some poison in his whiskey bottle that he had at home. When he returned home mean and drunk, he went for the bottle and took a few swigs as usual...only instead of beating his wife that night, he died from the poison whiskey...
Everybody knew what had happened, including the police...but nobody said a word or did a thing about it...it was considered "home town justice".
It really is unbelievable how women were treated in the past
My dad was born in 1908 ( I was the youngest)...and he grew up in the 20's. (He passed away in 2003 at the age of 95 and this coming March would have been his 100 birthday)...
First of all: Congrats to your Papa for having lived such a long life! That is awesome. My Dad was born in in 1919 and died in 1992. Glad you have that part of your life to enjoy. No doubt it was sad when he passed, but also no doubt you all were comforted that he lived so long...
And, to that story that he shared with you. Nice to hear that the "local Law" was able to read between the lines and let the chips fall where they should have fallen. Yeah man, it appalls me when I think of how wicked men have been toward women. I mean, here are the Girls, everything we Boys are NOT, and yet the boys have treated them wickedly over the centuries. Women are sweet, soft, beautiful, sexy, and all of the good things that we gnarly boys are not. Just what we need, ya know? I just don't get it that men ahve always been so wicked towards them. My Dad always taught we boys to "never ever hit a woman", and that we should treat them with the utmost of respect. He taught us to stand up when a lady entered the room, hold the doors for them, say "yes maa'm", and etc. And I am thankful that he instilled that respect into us.
And ya know, I have turned down beautiful whores back when I was a Merchant seaman, plying my trade overseas, because I felt bad for the plight of the gals who were plying their trade. I didn't turn them all down, for I did have human frailties, but the ones who seemed the most poverty stricken and debased, I just couldn't bring myself to "go there". One time, in Mersin, Turkey, at one particular bordello, I gave my 20 American dollars to a pretty young gal who wanted my business, and told her to just "keep it". I went back to the ship pretty shook up. The crew jeered me as I walked off, but I didn't care.
Well, thanks for the input Groucho. and hey, since we have had "bad blood" between us here on the threads, I just want to say that I apologize for anytime I was out of line. I know you and I don't see eye to eye, and on certain things never will, but, no reason for us to be feuding over differences I 'spose. Peace...
JL
P.S.
Find the book and read it. It really is a fine and enlightening read. The ending will stun you.
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Watered Garden
I never heard of it, but it does sound interesting. Women and children were pretty much exploited throughout that century.
I sometimes think the history of women's issues, the socalled "glass ceiling" etc. is one big reason why Hillary Clinton is so popular among some women.
Not that this is all history - remember those images a few years back of the women of Kabul in their blue and black whatevers (the name escapes me since I always thought of them as "baggies." Denied even medical care, since they were only permitted to be examined by female physicians, and females were denied an education, so they couldn't go to medical school and become women's doctors.
Some of this was in the name of religion. One of the "good gals" in the fight was Queen Victoria. When ether came along as a general anesthetic, and was recommended for women in labor and childbirth, many theologians had snit fits. Does the Bible not state in Genesis that women MUST suffer during childbirth because of the sin of Eve? "Nonsense!" said Her Majesty. She was the mother of quite a few children and thought anything to relieve the pain of delivering one of them was a great idea.
God save The Queen!
WG
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J0nny Ling0
I understand that this thing against women is not just a thing of the past. That's why I said "Western women". And, those things women have to wear in countries under Islamic "Sharia Law"? They are called "burkhas". To me, it makes them all look like "Cousin It" from the Adams Family...
And cool! I did not know that about Queen Victoria. Good for her by George...
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nolongerlurking
I have also read this book and I can add my enthusiasm to Johnny's. It is downright excellent. A definite must read.
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waysider
The "Bread and Roses" strike of 1912.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45b/073.html-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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J0nny Ling0
WOw. Awesome vid clip Waysider. I would suppose that these women were some of the "suffragettes"? I know that the time period was well before WW II in that clip, but a picture of "Rosie The Riveter" seemed like it would have fit in that scheme as well. But I know she came later. Yeah, it is just astounding how men back in those days treated women. Makes ya kind of sick to think about it.
Have any of you ever heard of the "Sing Song Girls?" During the 1898 Alaska gold rush when people flocked to Skagway (just up the sea's Inside Passage from me by ninety miles), there seemed to be a lack of whores for the men. There were in fact some very hearty and tough gals who plied their trade in a whore house known as the Red Onion Saloon. These were mostly European women, and the Madames did do their best to make sure that the women were treated fairly decently and also earned a fair wage. I have been to this whore house, but only to dine on pizza, beer, and take the tour of the "upper rooms" which is where the action used to take place. A friend of mine is the Madame there during tourist season. She goes by the handle of "Madame Spitfire", and looks really cool in her "period costume", and so do the rest of the girls!
But I digress...
And so, because there wasn't enough whores for the men, some business guy, seeing a demand for this trade, brought up some fifty or more Chinese women in a number of wagons with bars on them (via ship), to Skagway. These women lived in outdoor cages in the spring summer and fall, and were required to "sing out" to attract the men. When a "man" selected one, he took her inside a hotel type building to be abused and the woman was put back in her cage after the deed was done. They were sad, lonely, cold and in pain and agony, poorly fed, and their "singing out" was a mournful sound, as has been recorded historically.
"Sing song! Sing song. Sing song...." :(
And so, the sing song girls, as they wore out and died, were simply replaced by newer versions until they too wore out, got sick and died. And all along, these women had been ripped from their families after arriving in this far away land, and then treated worse than dogs to die a sad and lonely death in a cold and strange place, never receiving any recompense for their forced services. It just made me sick when I read a historical account of it when I was staying at a bed and breakfast in Skagway a few years ago when doing a late winter construction project. Hard to believe that men could act that way or stand by and watch other men treat fellow humans that way. It seems that mankind's capacity for evil is downright extraordinary. And yet, no doubt many of the men who purchased these Sing Song Girls had wives and children somewhere else in the world, waiting for them to come back home with the Gold...
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waysider
Hi, Jonny
Thanks for that background on The Sing-Song Girls.
There is a link above the vid-clip that gives some information regarding the "Bread and Roses Strike of 1912".
Not all who died to make this country what it is today, did so on foreign soil.
Many brave souls stood the picket lines and sacrificed their safety, comfort, and even their very lives to bring about the changes that shaped our country into what it is today.
They did so because working conditions had become intolerable and inhumane.
Many of those brave souls were women, as evidenced by looking at the history of "The Bread and Roses Strike of 1912".
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waysider
Oh, Had I A Golden Thread
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Twinky
The advances for western women have been tremendous but still need to move forward some.
When my mother got married in 1948 she had to leave her job as they did not employ married women in permanent posts. Nonetheless she was retained by the same business for the next five years as a "temporary clerk" doing much the same job. Her employer? The railways, pretty much a nationalized organisation, not sure if it was at that time or became so later. Rising above a Clerk's job would have been unheard of.
WW1 was very good for women - it was after that that women were granted the vote because of their contribution to the war effort.
WW2 was also very good for women. That was when they had to do "responsible" jobs that had hitherto been thought only capable of being done by men and the glass ceiling began to crack.
Would be it equality - if men were kept in cages and taken out only to service women? If men could be sold and beaten up like some prostitutes? If men were subjected to the treatment that they subjected and sometimes still subject women to? If men had to go around wrapped in shrouds (burkhas) and were beaten if they did not? Would women stoop so low? Would men put up with what they had inflcited on women?
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Watered Garden
I remember in the mid-60's before I went back to college to get my degree, working in an office where the second in command needed a secretary. I was all set to apply for the promotion, as I was a lowly typist, but this guy told me "I don't hire young women for jobs like this. They get married and want to stay home in bed with their husbands, which means they end up getting pregnant, which means they have a baby and quit to take care of it." He hired a mid-50's widow and griped about her all the time. She couldn't do the work all that well, but she had no husband and no children at home. I didn't feel one bit sorry for him.
I was sexually harassed plenty of times on the job as a youth, including when I worked at a very prestigious medical center during my time in FLO. Some men seemed to think sexual favors were an unwritten given in the job description. At least that's changed now, at least I hope it has.
I do think there is a balance. A perfectly decent guy can get into trouble simply by saying "you look nice today." That's the other side of the coin.
WG
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J0nny Ling0
My daughter works in what has been very traditionally a "man's job". She is a US Merchant Marine, and works in the engine room of one of the ships I used to work on as an engineer. An operating engineer that is. She stands engine room watches (starting up the huge engines, shutting them down, monitoring them while the ship is underway, etc) for six hours straight, and then has six hours off, and does this around the clock for her two weeks "on". That's twelve hours a day, seven days a week, eighty four hours a week, times two weeks. Then she gets to come home for her two weeks off. Her pay is exactly as much as anybody else's, and, she is making bank big time. She earns $3700.00 a month take home pay. The men with whom she works (many of whom are my old ship mates) treat her with dignity and respect. Oh, she's playboy bunny beautiful, and no doubt they appreciate that, but, she is very diligent to do her job, for, it is her commitment that nobody, man or woman is ever going to accuse her of "playing the chick card" to get out of hard work. If the boiler needs to be crawled into to have the boiler tubes cleaned (a job none of us ever liked to do, for you come out all black), she is the first to volunteer. And if she is ever accused of playing "the chick card", she has no doubt in her mind that she has done her absolute best. And consequently, her reputation is already steller. Yet she says; "But Dad, I don't really know that much! I'm not a great mechanic, and so many of those guys know so much more than me! They are such "motor heads"! And I tell her it may be true that you know less, but you are learning more each time you go out, and they all love you because you work hard and are unafraid to get up close and personal with the machinery. "That's how you learn. Your book learning License as an engineer is nothing more than a license to LEARN", I tell her. And so, yes, I am bragging a bit fore shore, but I know that none of this would be possible for her if it hadn't been for some of the great Women who blazed the way for women today. I am just thankful that she has taken full advantage of what is before her, and what this Great Country has made available to her. There is a common bumper sticker here in Alaska that is found on womens' cars and trucks:
"Alaska Girls Kick A$$!"
That's My Girl!
P.S.
She just got back from a five week "diving vacation" on Roatan Island off of the coast of Honduras. Roatan is one of the world's greatest scuba diving destinations. She went by herself, and had quite a time! She even went "zip lining" through the jungle tree tops! Okay, I really bragging now.....sorry :)
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brideofjc
Now, if we can just fully crack into a million pieces the glass ceiling in the pastorate.
Unfortunately, the church, whose head was and is a revolutionary regarding the fringe
minority and the disenfranchised, still for the most part refuses to let women serve
in "responsible" positions maintaining a theology that has a bogus interpretation. I
realize that the so-called liberal churches allow women to serve, but even here they
are still most of the time only associate pastors.
We need to bring the ceiling down here as well.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Good thread Jonny...the book sounds interesting and worth reading.
Reading this thread reminds me of a story that my dad used to tell me. My dad was born in 1908 ( I was the youngest)...and he grew up in the 20's. (He passed away in 2003 at the age of 95 and this coming March would have been his 100 birthday)...
Here's the story:
There was drunk who lived down the street on Lincoln Ave and every night he would come home drunk and beat his wife. She was often seen with black eyes and bruises...but of course in those days people "minded their own business" and didn't get involved with family matters...
...One night when he was out drinking, his wife poured some poison in his whiskey bottle that he had at home. When he returned home mean and drunk, he went for the bottle and took a few swigs as usual...only instead of beating his wife that night, he died from the poison whiskey...
Everybody knew what had happened, including the police...but nobody said a word or did a thing about it...it was considered "home town justice".
It really is unbelievable how women were treated in the past
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J0nny Ling0
First of all: Congrats to your Papa for having lived such a long life! That is awesome. My Dad was born in in 1919 and died in 1992. Glad you have that part of your life to enjoy. No doubt it was sad when he passed, but also no doubt you all were comforted that he lived so long...
And, to that story that he shared with you. Nice to hear that the "local Law" was able to read between the lines and let the chips fall where they should have fallen. Yeah man, it appalls me when I think of how wicked men have been toward women. I mean, here are the Girls, everything we Boys are NOT, and yet the boys have treated them wickedly over the centuries. Women are sweet, soft, beautiful, sexy, and all of the good things that we gnarly boys are not. Just what we need, ya know? I just don't get it that men ahve always been so wicked towards them. My Dad always taught we boys to "never ever hit a woman", and that we should treat them with the utmost of respect. He taught us to stand up when a lady entered the room, hold the doors for them, say "yes maa'm", and etc. And I am thankful that he instilled that respect into us.
And ya know, I have turned down beautiful whores back when I was a Merchant seaman, plying my trade overseas, because I felt bad for the plight of the gals who were plying their trade. I didn't turn them all down, for I did have human frailties, but the ones who seemed the most poverty stricken and debased, I just couldn't bring myself to "go there". One time, in Mersin, Turkey, at one particular bordello, I gave my 20 American dollars to a pretty young gal who wanted my business, and told her to just "keep it". I went back to the ship pretty shook up. The crew jeered me as I walked off, but I didn't care.
Well, thanks for the input Groucho. and hey, since we have had "bad blood" between us here on the threads, I just want to say that I apologize for anytime I was out of line. I know you and I don't see eye to eye, and on certain things never will, but, no reason for us to be feuding over differences I 'spose. Peace...
JL
P.S.
Find the book and read it. It really is a fine and enlightening read. The ending will stun you.
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