Do you think Wierwille's action in asking for a backrub and offering drambuie to a 20-year old was sin?
In 1972, it was illegal for a minor to consume alcohol, other than "Sunday beer", or offer it to a minor for consumption in the State of Ohio, which was VPW's home state, the state with whose laws he would have or should have been most familiar, even if this did not take place in Ohio. If he did not know the local laws, he should have inquired rather than pronounce it "OK" to offer a minor alcohol, which, by the way, would contradict our Biblical admonition to obey the laws of the land.
(ie: what some might classify a "sin".)
edited to reiterate this question again in case it went unnoticed.
"Are you saying that, because penetration never occurred, there was no impropriety in the events that were described?'
One wonders what in your life or back ground would lead you to believe this was at all normal or even remotely acceptable behavior from an elderly man, not to mention a minister of God towards a young woman.
We were trained to think of these men as brothers in Christ. Someone whom we were safe with. Someone whom we could trust. Do you honestky think for one second that a 20 year old girl WANTS to have sex with a man old enough to be her grandfather???
There is so much wrong on so many levels. I have to wonder what is *broken* inside that would make the above scenario seem in any way acceptable.
Yes, Oldies, you're starting to 'get it'! This is wonderful! It is always absolutely inappropriate for a married man minister/authority figure to give alcohol to a 20-year-old girl who is in his congregation and then ask her to give him a backrub. She didn't say she was a licensed massage therapist, did she?
So what, who says only a licensed massage therapist can give a massage?
With his history it isn't hard to see that he was testing the waters with this girl and this time, thank God, he chose not to push her past her limits.
Why didn't ask the branch leader's wife, or better yet, the male branch leader for this backrub if it was so innocent - you know, so as to avoid the appearance of evil and that the ministry be not blamed...?
I don't know, and its folly to speculate.
Also, she states she was uncomfortable, nervous, it was weird, she felt later that God was telling her to get out of there. No, she did not FREELY give that backrub. Please go back and carefully read her description and come back and tell me you still see that as freely giving a backrub. Please.
I read and re-read the account, and i don't think he did anything sinful. If you think its a sin for a minister to give one of his adult congegants a drink and ask for a backrub, and that's it, well I just disagree with that opinion. Show me from scripture where its a sin and I'll consider it.
He asked her if she was uncomfortable and she said no. Where did he force himself on her? She freely gave the backrub. She was an adult, she could have said "no" and that would have been the end of it.
Maybe. But she also describes how uncomfortable she felt, despite telling him no. He was a grown man of 50-some years. It was around 1972. She was a young lady of 20.
Was the legal drinking age 21 in that state in 1972? The girl was 20. Do you feel it's appropriate for a 50-some year old married man to drink with a single 20-year old lady? Not to mention the fact that he was her highest human authority - supposed man of God?
Here is the part of sky's post that tells me it was inappropriate for a 50-some-year-old married FOUNDING PRESIDENT and minister - highest rank there is in the system of the way givng alcohol to an impressionable young lady AFTER the branch leader and his wife went to bed. If it was innocent, why not ask for the backrub in front of them or ask of one of them for a backrub, better still, as they were Corps grads?
The bolding is mine to be sure it catches your attention.
Sky wrote:
... we (the branch leaders, Dr W and myself) ended up in the kitchen talking. Dr was drinking drambouie (sorry, I don't know how you spell it) and he asked me how old I was. I told him and he said, "well, you're old enough to drink some of this" and he got up and poured me some. We all talked and sat for a while longer, and then the branch leaders excused themselves and went to bed.
Dr W then asked me if I would give him a back rub and I said,"sure". He told me to wait til he got into his pajamas (he was given the master bedroom and the branch leaders were sleeping in the bedroom of one of their kids). When he was finished putting on his pajamas he called me in and he laid down on the bed and I began to rub his back. He would tell me what part to rub and then he asked me to rub his "buttocks" as he put it. I did and he asked me if it made me feel uncomfortable to do that. I lied and said no. But even though it did make me feel uncomfortable, I didn't really think too much about it, because after all, this was the man of God of the world and I must have just been being uptight.Finally he asked me to stop and lie down next to him. I did. He put his arm around me and he just began to talk about different stuff. I really have no idea what we talked about. I was very nervous and thought this was very weird, but I was trying to act like it was nothing and that I was so spiritual, and I could handle it, and all the garbage that goes through one's mind, when, deep in your spirit you KNOW God is telling you to get out of there but you don't, because, what if he really IS the man of God of the world, yada, yada, yada. It doesn't take very long in the Way to become numb to common sense.
In 1972, it was illegal to consume alcohol, other than "Sunday beer", or offer it for consumption in the State of Ohio, which was VPW's home state, the state with whose laws he would have or should have been most familiar, even if this did not take place in Ohio. If he did not know the local laws, he should have inquired rather than pronounce it "OK" to offer a minor alcohol, which, by the way, would contradict our Biblical admonition to obey the laws of the land.
(ie: what some might classify a "sin".)
edited to reiterate this question again in case it went unnoticed.
"Are you saying that, because penetration never occurred, there was no impropriety in the events that were described?'
Waysider, I disagree with your opinion. No impropriety occured from what I read of that incident.
Because of the preconceived judgment of VP being a sex addict and predator, this incident takes on a juicy life of its own. But had he never committed adultery in his life, this incident has little meaning and caused no harm.
Because of the preconceived judgment of VP being a sex addict and predator, this incident takes on a juicy life of its own. But had he never committed adultery in his life, this incident has little meaning and caused no harm.
Please consider that it just might be inappropriate for a 50-year-old married male minister to be alone in his pj's in a bed lying next to a 20-year-old congregant after he gave her alcohol knowing she was underage.
Because of the preconceived judgment of VP being a sex addict and predator, this incident takes on a juicy life of its own. But had he never committed adultery in his life, this incident has little meaning and caused no harm.
So then when a married man has sex with a woman that is not his wife, what are we to call that if not adultery?
(excluding this incident in order to address the larger question)
In 1972, it was illegal for a minor to consume alcohol, other than "Sunday beer", or offer it to a minor for consumption in the State of Ohio, which was VPW's home state, the state with whose laws he would have or should have been most familiar, even if this did not take place in Ohio. If he did not know the local laws, he should have inquired rather than pronounce it "OK" to offer a minor alcohol, which, by the way, would contradict our Biblical admonition to obey the laws of the land.
(ie: what some might classify a "sin".)
Do you drive a vehicle? Under your criteria, going 1 mile over the speed limit would be a sin.
Because of the preconceived judgment of VP being a sex addict and predator, this incident takes on a juicy life of its own. But had he never committed adultery in his life, this incident has little meaning and caused no harm.
Preconcieved judgement...Are you saying he wasn`t a sexual addict and predator? Referring to the horrific details of his behavior as *juicy life* is certainly one way to attempt to explain that which was entirely inapropriate.
Had he never repeatedly committed adultery, or drugged and raped unwilling young women, or attempted to have sex with 17 yr old unwilling virgins and visciously punished them afterwards for non compliance, or had a history of bringing young women into headquarters and giving them a job and ex[ecting them to service not only him sexually but his best buddy. Had he not preyed on young women with histories of horrific childhood sexual abuse and promise healing by sex......you are STILL wrong...the above incident was indecent, and inapropriate...both morally and spiritually, not to mention legally, and the woman relating her experience certainly does not say that no harm was caused.
As it is, it is just one more piece of the sordid puzzle that was vpw`s life.
So, Oldies, I'm glad you would have no problem drinking with VP, going to his bed at his invitation and rubbing his buttocks.
Good to know. After all, he was the MOG and you would have done his bidding.
Oldies rubbing VPs buttocks with a smile and a Drambuie buzz on, it fits somehow.
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No personal attack Oldies. Just fact. You are ok with this.
You have stated there is nothing wrong with what VP did. So, obviously, no problem if he did it to you. You would defend his actions in doing this with you. We understand that.
I understand where you're coming from and even agree with you up to a point. My post wasn't meant to imply that what vp did with me was so terrible. It made me wonder about his motivations and confused me over the years, but to compare it to what happened to so many others...well, it just doesn't compare. I don't think his actions that night were appropriate, but when everything started to come out about some of the things he'd done I realized that ...I had escaped. But on some level, I knew that I had escaped something even way back then when it was happening. There's no doubt I should have questioned the incident and examined it more closely, but the truth is ...HE WAS DR WIERWILLE. I trusted him. Shouln't have, but did just like thousands of others.
I don't blame twi for anything having to do with my actions or reactions for all the years I was in twi. At the time I left I had been in for exactly half of my life. I could have left at any time. It would have meant leaving all my friends and even family, but I could have left. I could have "searched the scriptures daily whether these things were so", and at first I did, but as the years passed it was impossible to keep up with everything. Believe it or not, I have no regrets as to the things I experienced while I was in twi. Everything that happened to me, even the bad stuff, helped shape me into the person that I am today. But I got out of twi (in 1986) virtually unscathed. Many did not. People's lives were turned upside down, people were betrayed, so many women psychologically and sexually abused. How long do we give a person to "get over" that? Just how long does it take to heal?
I was molested when I was 10 years old by a man who lived in the town where I grew up. It happened only once and lasted for maybe 20 minutes. It affected everything I thought or believed about myself for the rest of my life. I never even told anyone about it until I was almost 30. How can 20 minutes effect the rest of a person's life. Was it my "victim mentality" that did it? No, it was human nature. That is, for some reason, the way the human mind works. The problem with getting healed from something like this is that it's still in your mind. If you could somehow just remove it, you probably could get over it. My molester was a stranger. What if it had been the man I trusted to teach me the Bible. What if it had been the man who was supposedly the example of what a Christian was, a man I had to face every day as he presented a certain face to the world, and another to me when we were alone?
I have received a lot of healing from what happened to me as a child. I have a loving understanding husband and a relationship with the Healer, Jesus Christ (something I was not allowed to have in the way). But it's still there. It will always be there. I don't talk about it, or complain about it, or dwell on it. I believe I have "moved on" as they say, but it's still there. And always will be.
The ONLY regrets that I have about twi are the times that I hurt other people by upholding way policy. As a coordinator, you had to hold to a certain standard and do the things that were expected of you, and I hurt people at times by doing it. And THAT is what I regret.
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waysider
In 1972, it was illegal for a minor to consume alcohol, other than "Sunday beer", or offer it to a minor for consumption in the State of Ohio, which was VPW's home state, the state with whose laws he would have or should have been most familiar, even if this did not take place in Ohio. If he did not know the local laws, he should have inquired rather than pronounce it "OK" to offer a minor alcohol, which, by the way, would contradict our Biblical admonition to obey the laws of the land.
(ie: what some might classify a "sin".)
edited to reiterate this question again in case it went unnoticed.
"Are you saying that, because penetration never occurred, there was no impropriety in the events that were described?'
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
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rascal
One wonders what in your life or back ground would lead you to believe this was at all normal or even remotely acceptable behavior from an elderly man, not to mention a minister of God towards a young woman.
We were trained to think of these men as brothers in Christ. Someone whom we were safe with. Someone whom we could trust. Do you honestky think for one second that a 20 year old girl WANTS to have sex with a man old enough to be her grandfather???
There is so much wrong on so many levels. I have to wonder what is *broken* inside that would make the above scenario seem in any way acceptable.
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oldiesman
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waysider
Please refer back to post # 102
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bowtwi
Maybe. But she also describes how uncomfortable she felt, despite telling him no. He was a grown man of 50-some years. It was around 1972. She was a young lady of 20.
Was the legal drinking age 21 in that state in 1972? The girl was 20. Do you feel it's appropriate for a 50-some year old married man to drink with a single 20-year old lady? Not to mention the fact that he was her highest human authority - supposed man of God?
Here is the part of sky's post that tells me it was inappropriate for a 50-some-year-old married FOUNDING PRESIDENT and minister - highest rank there is in the system of the way givng alcohol to an impressionable young lady AFTER the branch leader and his wife went to bed. If it was innocent, why not ask for the backrub in front of them or ask of one of them for a backrub, better still, as they were Corps grads?
The bolding is mine to be sure it catches your attention.
Sky wrote:
... we (the branch leaders, Dr W and myself) ended up in the kitchen talking. Dr was drinking drambouie (sorry, I don't know how you spell it) and he asked me how old I was. I told him and he said, "well, you're old enough to drink some of this" and he got up and poured me some. We all talked and sat for a while longer, and then the branch leaders excused themselves and went to bed.
Dr W then asked me if I would give him a back rub and I said,"sure". He told me to wait til he got into his pajamas (he was given the master bedroom and the branch leaders were sleeping in the bedroom of one of their kids). When he was finished putting on his pajamas he called me in and he laid down on the bed and I began to rub his back. He would tell me what part to rub and then he asked me to rub his "buttocks" as he put it. I did and he asked me if it made me feel uncomfortable to do that. I lied and said no. But even though it did make me feel uncomfortable, I didn't really think too much about it, because after all, this was the man of God of the world and I must have just been being uptight. Finally he asked me to stop and lie down next to him. I did. He put his arm around me and he just began to talk about different stuff. I really have no idea what we talked about. I was very nervous and thought this was very weird, but I was trying to act like it was nothing and that I was so spiritual, and I could handle it, and all the garbage that goes through one's mind, when, deep in your spirit you KNOW God is telling you to get out of there but you don't, because, what if he really IS the man of God of the world, yada, yada, yada. It doesn't take very long in the Way to become numb to common sense.
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oldiesman
Waysider, I disagree with your opinion. No impropriety occured from what I read of that incident.
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bowtwi
Sky was 20 years old at the time. The legal drinking age in Ohio was 21 at the time.
What part of contributing to the delinquency of a minor are you missing here?
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waysider
So then you contend it is appropriate to illegally offer alcohol to someone you know to be less than the legally acceptable age for consumption?
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oldiesman
Because of the preconceived judgment of VP being a sex addict and predator, this incident takes on a juicy life of its own. But had he never committed adultery in his life, this incident has little meaning and caused no harm.
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bowtwi
Please consider that it just might be inappropriate for a 50-year-old married male minister to be alone in his pj's in a bed lying next to a 20-year-old congregant after he gave her alcohol knowing she was underage.
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waysider
So then when a married man has sex with a woman that is not his wife, what are we to call that if not adultery?
(excluding this incident in order to address the larger question)
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oldiesman
I agree, what's your point?
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waysider
Perhaps you could ask the person who was actually there if your assessment is accurate.
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oldiesman
Do you drive a vehicle? Under your criteria, going 1 mile over the speed limit would be a sin.
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waysider
By my criteria, treating a fellow man in a manner that displays blatant disregard for the consequences of said treatment would be a sin.
edited for 2x post.
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rascal
Preconcieved judgement...Are you saying he wasn`t a sexual addict and predator? Referring to the horrific details of his behavior as *juicy life* is certainly one way to attempt to explain that which was entirely inapropriate.
Had he never repeatedly committed adultery, or drugged and raped unwilling young women, or attempted to have sex with 17 yr old unwilling virgins and visciously punished them afterwards for non compliance, or had a history of bringing young women into headquarters and giving them a job and ex[ecting them to service not only him sexually but his best buddy. Had he not preyed on young women with histories of horrific childhood sexual abuse and promise healing by sex......you are STILL wrong...the above incident was indecent, and inapropriate...both morally and spiritually, not to mention legally, and the woman relating her experience certainly does not say that no harm was caused.
As it is, it is just one more piece of the sordid puzzle that was vpw`s life.
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Sunesis
So, Oldies, I'm glad you would have no problem drinking with VP, going to his bed at his invitation and rubbing his buttocks.
Good to know. After all, he was the MOG and you would have done his bidding.
Oldies rubbing VPs buttocks with a smile and a Drambuie buzz on, it fits somehow.
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oldiesman
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waysider
GreaseSpot Cafe is a gathering place, bringing together people and information. We welcome all who have an interest in The Way International, including former followers, current followers, and those who may have friends or family members who are involved.
Our mission is to provide information that tells the other side of the story about The Way International and its trustees.
Our hope is that GreaseSpot Cafe serves as a place where those who have been impacted by The Way can make connections with people and information which will support their particular process of recovery
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Sunesis
No personal attack Oldies. Just fact. You are ok with this.
You have stated there is nothing wrong with what VP did. So, obviously, no problem if he did it to you. You would defend his actions in doing this with you. We understand that.
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excathedra
freeone thank you for posting
sky watcher thank you for posting
--
oldiesman i'm sorry but i think you should have gone drinking and rubbing with that old piece of sheet
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sky watcher
Oldies,
I understand where you're coming from and even agree with you up to a point. My post wasn't meant to imply that what vp did with me was so terrible. It made me wonder about his motivations and confused me over the years, but to compare it to what happened to so many others...well, it just doesn't compare. I don't think his actions that night were appropriate, but when everything started to come out about some of the things he'd done I realized that ...I had escaped. But on some level, I knew that I had escaped something even way back then when it was happening. There's no doubt I should have questioned the incident and examined it more closely, but the truth is ...HE WAS DR WIERWILLE. I trusted him. Shouln't have, but did just like thousands of others.
I don't blame twi for anything having to do with my actions or reactions for all the years I was in twi. At the time I left I had been in for exactly half of my life. I could have left at any time. It would have meant leaving all my friends and even family, but I could have left. I could have "searched the scriptures daily whether these things were so", and at first I did, but as the years passed it was impossible to keep up with everything. Believe it or not, I have no regrets as to the things I experienced while I was in twi. Everything that happened to me, even the bad stuff, helped shape me into the person that I am today. But I got out of twi (in 1986) virtually unscathed. Many did not. People's lives were turned upside down, people were betrayed, so many women psychologically and sexually abused. How long do we give a person to "get over" that? Just how long does it take to heal?
I was molested when I was 10 years old by a man who lived in the town where I grew up. It happened only once and lasted for maybe 20 minutes. It affected everything I thought or believed about myself for the rest of my life. I never even told anyone about it until I was almost 30. How can 20 minutes effect the rest of a person's life. Was it my "victim mentality" that did it? No, it was human nature. That is, for some reason, the way the human mind works. The problem with getting healed from something like this is that it's still in your mind. If you could somehow just remove it, you probably could get over it. My molester was a stranger. What if it had been the man I trusted to teach me the Bible. What if it had been the man who was supposedly the example of what a Christian was, a man I had to face every day as he presented a certain face to the world, and another to me when we were alone?
I have received a lot of healing from what happened to me as a child. I have a loving understanding husband and a relationship with the Healer, Jesus Christ (something I was not allowed to have in the way). But it's still there. It will always be there. I don't talk about it, or complain about it, or dwell on it. I believe I have "moved on" as they say, but it's still there. And always will be.
The ONLY regrets that I have about twi are the times that I hurt other people by upholding way policy. As a coordinator, you had to hold to a certain standard and do the things that were expected of you, and I hurt people at times by doing it. And THAT is what I regret.
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oldiesman
sky watcher, thanks for sharing.
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Sunesis
Oldies, why are you not offended at all by what happened to the lady, but you would be offended if it happened to you?
I'd like to know your answer.
What's the difference?
It happens to her and you defend VP to the hilt for doing what he did.
Thinking about VP doing it to you and you are offended.
Why? You have said what he did was ok.
You said it was proper for her to rub his buttocks. Why is it not proper for you to rub his buttocks if VP asked?
Why all of a sudden is it now not ok if it concerns you?
What is the difference?
Why are you not offended when its someone else, but offended if it would happen to you?
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