But here was The Doctor. “V.P.,” a willing substitute. In my mind, I christen him “Dad.” The Dad I lost has come back to me. And he’s better than any father I could imagine. He’s brought God with him.
....her story reveals appalling psychological, sexual, financial, and spiritual exploitation by predators hiding behind the veil of Christian fundamentalism.
Ex, don't be afraid to read the book. You can always read it with a certain detatchment, or objectivity...the latter might be helpful.
You can find her truth validating, and possibly through this newest evidence, the facts as you knew them once MAY now hold less power over you. You might find it's closer to letting go than it is to re-experience fear.
Ex, don't be afraid to read the book. You can always read it with a certain detatchment, or objectivity...the latter might be helpful.
You can find her truth validating, and possibly through this newest evidence, the facts as you knew them once MAY now hold less power over you. You might find it's closer to letting go than it is to re-experience fear.
The key for me to believe something is mind control, is if free will is taken away. I suppose we can claim we were brainwashed by just being there, but that's not enough for me. Who chained us to the seat? Who locked the door? Who held a gun to our head? Remember, this is the U.S. of A. with freedom of religion, and we had the freedom to walk out anytime.
Nobody chained us to the seat...Nobody locked the door...Nobody held a gun to our head.
You still don't get it, do you?...I've seen plenty of posts where people have explained it to you...what's up? You don't understand emotional and mental dependency based on a belief system? You don't understand that the chains, locked doors and guns were mental prisons?...Have you never read of Pavlov's experiments?...Don't you realize that when a person believes that someone else is speaking on God's behalf to them that they are under "undo influence"? ...that they will make decisions based on fear...against their better judgement?
The fact that it's called "brainwashing" implies that you don't NEED physical restaints...that's really not a hard concept to grasp...Reading your posts, I have to wonder whether you are simply being stubborn on your position or whether you honestly don't understand what brainwashing is...
Nobody chained us to the seat...Nobody locked the door...Nobody held a gun to our head.
You still don't get it, do you?...I've seen plenty of posts where people have explained it to you...what's up? You don't understand emotional and mental dependency based on a belief system? You don't understand that the chains, locked doors and guns were mental prisons?...Have you never read of Pavlov's experiments?...Don't you realize that when a person believes that someone else is speaking on God's behalf to them that they are under "undo influence"? ...that they will make decisions based on fear...against their better judgement?
The fact that it's called "brainwashing" implies that you don't NEED physical restaints...that's really not a hard concept to grasp...Reading your posts, I have to wonder whether you are simply being stubborn on your position or whether you honestly don't understand what brainwashing is...
Isn't it ironic that one of the results of brainwashing is the inability to recognize it in one's self?
This is from Dr. Singer (on the factnet.org web site)
"Thought reform is accomplished through the use of psychological and environmental control processes that do not depend on physical coercion. Today's thought reform programs are sophisticated, subtle, and insidious, creating a psychological bond that in many ways is far more powerful than gun-at-the-head methods of influence. The effects generally lose their potency when the control processes are lifted or neutralized in some way. That is why most Korean War POWs gave up the content of their prison camp indoctrination programs when they came home and why many cultists leave their groups if they spend a substantial amount of time away from the group or have an opportunity to discuss their doubts with in intimate (11).
Contrary to popular misconceptions (some intentional on the part of naysayers), a thought reform program does not require physical confinement and does not produce robots. Nor does it permanently capture the allegiance of all those exposed to it. In fact, some persons do not respond at all to the programs, while others retain the contents for varied periods of time. In sum, thought reform should be regarded as "situationally adaptive belief change that is not subtle and is environment-dependent". (8,10)
The current effort by cult apologists to deny thought reform exists is linked to earlier protective stances toward cults in which apologists attempted to deny the cults' active and deceptive recruitment practices, deny the massive social, psychological, financial, spiritual and other controls wielded by cult leaders and thus dismiss their often destructive consequences.
These earlier efforts to shield cults from criticism rest on a seeker theory of how people get into cults, which overlooks the active and deceptive tactics that most cults use to recruit and retain members. When bad things happened to followers of Jim Jones or David Koresh, the twisted logic of some apologists implied that these "seekers" found what they wanted, thus absolving the cult leader and his conduct.
Finally, to promulgate the myth that though reform has been rejected by the scientific community, cult apologists doggedly stick to faulty understanding of the process contrary to findings in the literature, they ---- that physical coercion and debilitation are necessary for thought reform to occur, and that the effects of thought reform must be instant, massive, uniform, universally responded to, and enduring."
Let's be honest, Mike and Oldiesman are still brainwashed, White Dove- not certain. Maybe they are post-stress shock syndrone. It's not hate, it's pity. The 3 need psychiatric help quickly.
OM, listen to Ralph Duboffsky's interview with Paw and tell me with a straight face that no one in TWI was held against their will. Otherwise, you and Mike need help. This is not about VPW's doctrine as it is about behavior. Tell me, would you have followed Jim Jones, David Koresh, or Warren Jeffers? Only difference was no one tried to publicly hold Wierwille, Martindale or Geer accountable. Don't give me that $#!+ about the Ministry be not blamed(what a cop out). What's wrong, are the 3 of you living in Never-Never land(they run to their mommies and cry/bawling "Wah! Mr. Bumgarner is spiritually mocking us. Make him stop).I only pity you and your immaturity(including other VPW supporters/defenders). What ever happened to the(real)truth needs no defense? GSC has tried to be a healing place like AA or NA, but you have got to admit that you have a problem, otherwise you will be in bondage for the rest of your life.(I can hear you say, Frak you, so what? It's my life and if I decide one day to kill myself, well up yours). Sorry to be blunt but that;s real tough love OM, Rocky, Mike, WD, and other lurking former posters.
Thomas, if you want to help someone I think the loving thing to do would be to PM them and not try to publicly humiliate. You have a right to your own opinion, but to say that your post is "tough love" is lame. I think you're full of crap.
This term "victim mentality," as I understand it, has nothing to do with whether abuse occurred or not, but the reaction of a person who suffered an abusive act, and is a contrast to the term "survivor of abuse"
An example is:
someone gets robbed and they spend the rest of their life with out of control anger (some anger is good) decide to rob others becasue they are such a "victim"...[victim mentality]
or they get robbed and use the opportunity to learn how to protect themselves better [survivor].
There is NO DOUBT to me that the way was horribly abusive whether or not someone was personally molested or not. The abuse came in many forms! As for the details, I see no need to belabor or argue this each person knows their own experience and that is what is important. For those who had a good experience, that's great but it doesn't mean others didn't suffer.
As for my opinion as to whether there was mind control, that is not a "black and white" definition. No, obviously people were not tied down and forced to do things. But in my experience my critical thinking was severely impaired, so the choices I made were definitely not made when in my "best moments" (that does not mean I"m not responsible as an adult, but seriously many of my choices were pretty lame!--who would logically consider in a group and feel they would kill themselves before leaving after 2 times being told "get out"?). [sure do have a lot of gratitude for not being there any more! ]
I have been coming to this site off and on for almost 8 years. I've never joined or posted anything. The last post was the 25th of April, so maybe everyone is done with this thread. But I just have to do this. I just have to get it off my chest.
When I was 20 years old, this would be around 1972, Dr Wierwille came to our city. I lived with the branch leaders. I rented their basement. As I recall we rented a meeting room someplace and afterward Dr W met with some of the people at our house. We were in the basement where I lived and he ordered pizza and we talked and stuff. Then, after everyone went home, we (the branch leaders, Dr W and myself) ended up in the kitchen talking. Dr was drinking drambouie (sorry, I don't know how you spell it) and he asked me how old I was. I told him and he said, "well, you're old enough to drink some of this" and he got up and poured me some. We all talked and sat for a while longer, and then the branch leaders excused themselves and went to bed.
Dr W then asked me if I would give him a back rub and I said,"sure". He told me to wait til he got into his pajamas (he was given the master bedroom and the branch leaders were sleeping in the bedroom of one of their kids). When he was finished putting on his pajamas he called me in and he laid down on the bed and I began to rub his back. He would tell me what part to rub and then he asked me to rub his "buttocks" as he put it. I did and he asked me if it made me feel uncomfortable to do that. I lied and said no. But even though it did make me feel uncomfortable, I didn't really think too much about it, because after all, this was the man of God of the world and I must have just been being uptight. Finally he asked me to stop and lie down next to him. I did. He put his arm around me and he just began to talk about different stuff. I really have no idea what we talked about. I was very nervous and thought this was very weird, but I was trying to act like it was nothing and that I was so spiritual, and I could handle it, and all the garbage that goes through one's mind, when, deep in your spirit you KNOW God is telling you to get out of there but you don't, because, what if he really IS the man of God of the world, yada, yada, yada. It doesn't take very long in the Way to become numb to common sense.
Anyway, the really weird thing is, after a while, he just told me to go and he would see me in the morning. Years ago, I was reading a post on here of what happened to one girl (I think her name was Kathy) and as she told the story of what happened to her my blood just ran cold. I KNEW she was telling the truth and I KNEW that I had been spared when I came so close to it happening to me. My God, I don't know what turn my life would have taken had he not decided... what, to let me go...he was too tired... he thought I couldn't handle it...WHO KNOWS. I think of my sisters who did NOT escape it and ... my God, I can't imagine what that must have been like for them. To be betrayed in such a way by a man who was so revered and looked up to... and to whom would you go with this, whom would you tell? I don't know if any did tell, but I know exactly what happened if they did. They were kicked out because they were "possessed" or "out in left field" and it was covered up so easily and neatly so that no one ever knew or suspected. I graduated from the corps, went wow, worked on staff at HQ, and I NEVER heard or saw ANYTHING to indicate that this was happening, even though it almost happened to me. Talk about sticking your head in the sand!
Tex, you and I were in the same corps. I didn't know you well at all, but to think now of what you were going through at the time because of this lunatic... My God! I can't even imagine what it must have been like for you and for so many others because my mind won't let me go there. God bless you all. You are amazing, strong and beautiful souls who withstood this alone and in silence for so long. God bless you all. I hope you are all able to get some true healing in your life. He took so much from you and I am so sorry.
That just brings chills. The way you described knowing something was wrong...wanting to leave but controlling your thinking...not wanting to be seen as spiritually immature....your mind is screaming to get out...
When it happened to me...not sex, but when I had to do something else terrible in twi...I look back and refer to it as having learned to shut out the very voice of God. I ran scripture retemories fiercly through my mind so that my emotions and desires (ie read common sense here) wouldn`t trick me into copping out :(
Anyway, the really weird thing is, after a while, he just told me to go and he would see me in the morning.
sky watcher, thanks for sharing. It's sort of nice (and unusual) to read an account about VP not committing some sexual sin when in close contact with women like this. Enjoy your stay at GS cafe.
sky watcher, thanks for sharing. It's sort of nice (and unusual) to read an account about VP not committing some sexual sin when in close contact with women like this. Enjoy your stay at GS cafe.
Oldies
Could you perhaps clarify what is is about this situation that you find redeeming?
Are you saying that, because penetration never occurred, there was no impropriety in the events that were described?
If that is indeed your premise, can you explain in greater detail why you feel that way?
Would it have been appropriate if it had been your mother?
He asked her to give a back rub, and she freely gave one. He asked her if she was uncomfortable and she said no. Later, he didn't go further. From what I read, nothing was forced. What am I supposed to surmise by that incident, that he sinned for asking for a backrub?
He asked her to give a back rub, and she freely gave one. He asked her if she was uncomfortable and she said no. Later, he didn't go further. From what I read, nothing was forced. What am I supposed to surmise by that incident, that he sinned for asking for a backrub?
I'll ask the question again in case it wasn't clear.
"Are you saying that, because penetration never occurred, there was no impropriety in the events that were described?'
He asked her to give a back rub, and she freely gave one. He asked her if she was uncomfortable and she said no. Later, he didn't go further. From what I read, nothing was forced. What am I supposed to surmise by that incident, that he sinned for asking for a backrub?
Yes, Oldies, you're starting to 'get it'! This is wonderful! It is always absolutely inappropriate for a married man minister/authority figure to give alcohol to a 20-year-old girl who is in his congregation and then ask her to give him a backrub. She didn't say she was a licensed massage therapist, did she?
With his history it isn't hard to see that he was testing the waters with this girl and this time, thank God, he chose not to push her past her limits.
Why didn't ask the branch leader's wife, or better yet, the male branch leader for this backrub if it was so innocent - you know, so as to avoid the appearance of evil and that the ministry be not blamed...?
Also, she states she was uncomfortable, nervous, it was weird, she felt later that God was telling her to get out of there. No, she did not FREELY give that backrub. Please go back and carefully read her description and come back and tell me you still see that as freely giving a backrub. Please.
Yes, Oldies, you're starting to 'get it'! This is wonderful! It is always absolutely inappropriate for a married man minister/authority figure to give alcohol to a 20-year-old girl who is in his congregation and then ask her to give him a backrub.
Really? Chapter and verse please.
Do you think Wierwille's action in asking for a backrub and offering drambuie to a 20-year old was sin?
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excathedra
sniff
gettin' scared to read the book
not really
i think
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JeffSjo
Thanks for this Paw.
I'm listening now.
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excathedra
from one of dear tex's reviews
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dakotawind
Ex, don't be afraid to read the book. You can always read it with a certain detatchment, or objectivity...the latter might be helpful.
You can find her truth validating, and possibly through this newest evidence, the facts as you knew them once MAY now hold less power over you. You might find it's closer to letting go than it is to re-experience fear.
Worth a try.
Love
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dakotawind
Ex, don't be afraid to read the book. You can always read it with a certain detatchment, or objectivity...the latter might be helpful.
You can find her truth validating, and possibly through this newest evidence, the facts as you knew them once MAY now hold less power over you. You might find it's closer to letting go than it is to re-experience fear.
Worth a try.
Love
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excathedra
thank you dakota
love,ex
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GrouchoMarxJr
Nobody chained us to the seat...Nobody locked the door...Nobody held a gun to our head.
You still don't get it, do you?...I've seen plenty of posts where people have explained it to you...what's up? You don't understand emotional and mental dependency based on a belief system? You don't understand that the chains, locked doors and guns were mental prisons?...Have you never read of Pavlov's experiments?...Don't you realize that when a person believes that someone else is speaking on God's behalf to them that they are under "undo influence"? ...that they will make decisions based on fear...against their better judgement?
The fact that it's called "brainwashing" implies that you don't NEED physical restaints...that's really not a hard concept to grasp...Reading your posts, I have to wonder whether you are simply being stubborn on your position or whether you honestly don't understand what brainwashing is...
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waysider
Isn't it ironic that one of the results of brainwashing is the inability to recognize it in one's self?
This is from Dr. Singer (on the factnet.org web site)
http://www.factnet.org/Thought_Reform_Exists.htm
"Thought reform is accomplished through the use of psychological and environmental control processes that do not depend on physical coercion. Today's thought reform programs are sophisticated, subtle, and insidious, creating a psychological bond that in many ways is far more powerful than gun-at-the-head methods of influence. The effects generally lose their potency when the control processes are lifted or neutralized in some way. That is why most Korean War POWs gave up the content of their prison camp indoctrination programs when they came home and why many cultists leave their groups if they spend a substantial amount of time away from the group or have an opportunity to discuss their doubts with in intimate (11).
Contrary to popular misconceptions (some intentional on the part of naysayers), a thought reform program does not require physical confinement and does not produce robots. Nor does it permanently capture the allegiance of all those exposed to it. In fact, some persons do not respond at all to the programs, while others retain the contents for varied periods of time. In sum, thought reform should be regarded as "situationally adaptive belief change that is not subtle and is environment-dependent". (8,10)
The current effort by cult apologists to deny thought reform exists is linked to earlier protective stances toward cults in which apologists attempted to deny the cults' active and deceptive recruitment practices, deny the massive social, psychological, financial, spiritual and other controls wielded by cult leaders and thus dismiss their often destructive consequences.
These earlier efforts to shield cults from criticism rest on a seeker theory of how people get into cults, which overlooks the active and deceptive tactics that most cults use to recruit and retain members. When bad things happened to followers of Jim Jones or David Koresh, the twisted logic of some apologists implied that these "seekers" found what they wanted, thus absolving the cult leader and his conduct.
Finally, to promulgate the myth that though reform has been rejected by the scientific community, cult apologists doggedly stick to faulty understanding of the process contrary to findings in the literature, they ---- that physical coercion and debilitation are necessary for thought reform to occur, and that the effects of thought reform must be instant, massive, uniform, universally responded to, and enduring."
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excathedra
well thank you for those last two posts
it's really not that difficult to understand
it happens even in regular homes in the USA :)
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Let's be honest, Mike and Oldiesman are still brainwashed, White Dove- not certain. Maybe they are post-stress shock syndrone. It's not hate, it's pity. The 3 need psychiatric help quickly.
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oldiesman
Thank God this is the United States of America with freedom of religion.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
OM, listen to Ralph Duboffsky's interview with Paw and tell me with a straight face that no one in TWI was held against their will. Otherwise, you and Mike need help. This is not about VPW's doctrine as it is about behavior. Tell me, would you have followed Jim Jones, David Koresh, or Warren Jeffers? Only difference was no one tried to publicly hold Wierwille, Martindale or Geer accountable. Don't give me that $#!+ about the Ministry be not blamed(what a cop out). What's wrong, are the 3 of you living in Never-Never land(they run to their mommies and cry/bawling "Wah! Mr. Bumgarner is spiritually mocking us. Make him stop).I only pity you and your immaturity(including other VPW supporters/defenders). What ever happened to the(real)truth needs no defense? GSC has tried to be a healing place like AA or NA, but you have got to admit that you have a problem, otherwise you will be in bondage for the rest of your life.(I can hear you say, Frak you, so what? It's my life and if I decide one day to kill myself, well up yours). Sorry to be blunt but that;s real tough love OM, Rocky, Mike, WD, and other lurking former posters.
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oldiesman
Thomas, if you want to help someone I think the loving thing to do would be to PM them and not try to publicly humiliate. You have a right to your own opinion, but to say that your post is "tough love" is lame. I think you're full of crap.
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freeone
This term "victim mentality," as I understand it, has nothing to do with whether abuse occurred or not, but the reaction of a person who suffered an abusive act, and is a contrast to the term "survivor of abuse"
An example is:
someone gets robbed and they spend the rest of their life with out of control anger (some anger is good) decide to rob others becasue they are such a "victim"...[victim mentality]
or they get robbed and use the opportunity to learn how to protect themselves better [survivor].
There is NO DOUBT to me that the way was horribly abusive whether or not someone was personally molested or not. The abuse came in many forms! As for the details, I see no need to belabor or argue this each person knows their own experience and that is what is important. For those who had a good experience, that's great but it doesn't mean others didn't suffer.
As for my opinion as to whether there was mind control, that is not a "black and white" definition. No, obviously people were not tied down and forced to do things. But in my experience my critical thinking was severely impaired, so the choices I made were definitely not made when in my "best moments" (that does not mean I"m not responsible as an adult, but seriously many of my choices were pretty lame!--who would logically consider in a group and feel they would kill themselves before leaving after 2 times being told "get out"?). [sure do have a lot of gratitude for not being there any more! ]
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sky watcher
Okay, here goes,
I have been coming to this site off and on for almost 8 years. I've never joined or posted anything. The last post was the 25th of April, so maybe everyone is done with this thread. But I just have to do this. I just have to get it off my chest.
When I was 20 years old, this would be around 1972, Dr Wierwille came to our city. I lived with the branch leaders. I rented their basement. As I recall we rented a meeting room someplace and afterward Dr W met with some of the people at our house. We were in the basement where I lived and he ordered pizza and we talked and stuff. Then, after everyone went home, we (the branch leaders, Dr W and myself) ended up in the kitchen talking. Dr was drinking drambouie (sorry, I don't know how you spell it) and he asked me how old I was. I told him and he said, "well, you're old enough to drink some of this" and he got up and poured me some. We all talked and sat for a while longer, and then the branch leaders excused themselves and went to bed.
Dr W then asked me if I would give him a back rub and I said,"sure". He told me to wait til he got into his pajamas (he was given the master bedroom and the branch leaders were sleeping in the bedroom of one of their kids). When he was finished putting on his pajamas he called me in and he laid down on the bed and I began to rub his back. He would tell me what part to rub and then he asked me to rub his "buttocks" as he put it. I did and he asked me if it made me feel uncomfortable to do that. I lied and said no. But even though it did make me feel uncomfortable, I didn't really think too much about it, because after all, this was the man of God of the world and I must have just been being uptight. Finally he asked me to stop and lie down next to him. I did. He put his arm around me and he just began to talk about different stuff. I really have no idea what we talked about. I was very nervous and thought this was very weird, but I was trying to act like it was nothing and that I was so spiritual, and I could handle it, and all the garbage that goes through one's mind, when, deep in your spirit you KNOW God is telling you to get out of there but you don't, because, what if he really IS the man of God of the world, yada, yada, yada. It doesn't take very long in the Way to become numb to common sense.
Anyway, the really weird thing is, after a while, he just told me to go and he would see me in the morning. Years ago, I was reading a post on here of what happened to one girl (I think her name was Kathy) and as she told the story of what happened to her my blood just ran cold. I KNEW she was telling the truth and I KNEW that I had been spared when I came so close to it happening to me. My God, I don't know what turn my life would have taken had he not decided... what, to let me go...he was too tired... he thought I couldn't handle it...WHO KNOWS. I think of my sisters who did NOT escape it and ... my God, I can't imagine what that must have been like for them. To be betrayed in such a way by a man who was so revered and looked up to... and to whom would you go with this, whom would you tell? I don't know if any did tell, but I know exactly what happened if they did. They were kicked out because they were "possessed" or "out in left field" and it was covered up so easily and neatly so that no one ever knew or suspected. I graduated from the corps, went wow, worked on staff at HQ, and I NEVER heard or saw ANYTHING to indicate that this was happening, even though it almost happened to me. Talk about sticking your head in the sand!
Tex, you and I were in the same corps. I didn't know you well at all, but to think now of what you were going through at the time because of this lunatic... My God! I can't even imagine what it must have been like for you and for so many others because my mind won't let me go there. God bless you all. You are amazing, strong and beautiful souls who withstood this alone and in silence for so long. God bless you all. I hope you are all able to get some true healing in your life. He took so much from you and I am so sorry.
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waysider
Thanks, Sky Watcher
It took a tremendous amount of courage to post like that.
There is so much there, on so many different levels, it's hard to know what to say.
I'm glad you are here.
waysider
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rascal
Thank you Sky watcher.
That just brings chills. The way you described knowing something was wrong...wanting to leave but controlling your thinking...not wanting to be seen as spiritually immature....your mind is screaming to get out...
When it happened to me...not sex, but when I had to do something else terrible in twi...I look back and refer to it as having learned to shut out the very voice of God. I ran scripture retemories fiercly through my mind so that my emotions and desires (ie read common sense here) wouldn`t trick me into copping out :(
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oldiesman
sky watcher, thanks for sharing. It's sort of nice (and unusual) to read an account about VP not committing some sexual sin when in close contact with women like this. Enjoy your stay at GS cafe.
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waysider
Oldies
Could you perhaps clarify what is is about this situation that you find redeeming?
Are you saying that, because penetration never occurred, there was no impropriety in the events that were described?
If that is indeed your premise, can you explain in greater detail why you feel that way?
Would it have been appropriate if it had been your mother?
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oldiesman
He asked her to give a back rub, and she freely gave one. He asked her if she was uncomfortable and she said no. Later, he didn't go further. From what I read, nothing was forced. What am I supposed to surmise by that incident, that he sinned for asking for a backrub?
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waysider
I'll ask the question again in case it wasn't clear.
"Are you saying that, because penetration never occurred, there was no impropriety in the events that were described?'
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bowtwi
Yes, Oldies, you're starting to 'get it'! This is wonderful! It is always absolutely inappropriate for a married man minister/authority figure to give alcohol to a 20-year-old girl who is in his congregation and then ask her to give him a backrub. She didn't say she was a licensed massage therapist, did she?
With his history it isn't hard to see that he was testing the waters with this girl and this time, thank God, he chose not to push her past her limits.
Why didn't ask the branch leader's wife, or better yet, the male branch leader for this backrub if it was so innocent - you know, so as to avoid the appearance of evil and that the ministry be not blamed...?
Also, she states she was uncomfortable, nervous, it was weird, she felt later that God was telling her to get out of there. No, she did not FREELY give that backrub. Please go back and carefully read her description and come back and tell me you still see that as freely giving a backrub. Please.
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oldiesman
Really? Chapter and verse please.
Do you think Wierwille's action in asking for a backrub and offering drambuie to a 20-year old was sin?
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bowtwi
I'll answer your question after you answer waysider's and mine. Decently and in order.
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