Hi, Thanks for all these comments about the podcast. The discussion is fascinating. I have a blog in which I respond to some of these concerns. If you'd like to check out the blog, please come to http://losingtheway.blogspot.com. I always welcome your comments there as well. Thanks again for listening.
But we agreed to it. If we didn't, we could always leave. Ya can't seriously claim victimhood when there was always a way to escape from being "a victim."
The key for me to believe something is mind control, is if free will is taken away. I suppose we can claim we were brainwashed by just being there, but that's not enough for me. Who chained us to the seat? Who locked the door? Who held a gun to our head? Remember, this is the U.S. of A. with freedom of religion, and we had the freedom to walk out anytime.
No, I wasn't chained to the seat, nor was the door locked. But there was a fear of leaving involved. I was not told that I would die if I left - it was much more subtle. Since I was told that this was the Truth and that VPW was THE Man of God For Our Time, I was afraid to question things. The few times I did, the response was along the lines of, "you can't understand this, since you're not as mature as us spiritually. You just have to trust us." This is, I think, the crux of the matter - broken trust.
Does that make it a "cult"? Depends on your definition. I still have a lot of thinking and habits that were developed during my time in TWI. But then I also have a few mental patterns left over from my Roman Catholic days. The label of "cult" is not as important as, did we trust them, and did they fail to tell us the truth? That's how anyone - even an individual - can engage in "mind control."
The key for me to believe something is mind control, is if free will is taken away. I suppose we can claim we were brainwashed by just being there, but that's not enough for me. Who chained us to the seat? Who locked the door? Who held a gun to our head? Remember, this is the U.S. of A. with freedom of religion, and we had the freedom to walk out anytime.
Well, you see, Oldies, this observation demonstrates that you have not quite grasped the essence of the term "mind control".
What you are describing would commonly be referred to as "physical restraint".
During times of war, POW's are "physically restrained" because that is the course of action that suits the purposes of their captors .
They, the captors, have to physically restrain them, the captives, because they, the captors, can't control the captives thoughts(minds) and thus, their desire to escape.
But, if time permits, the captors feed the captives propaganda that is designed to win the captors over to their way of thinking.
Once they succeed at this, no chains or guns or locks are necessary because they don't realize they have been "reprogrammed" to think that their actions stem from free will.
Yes, many who had transportation and financial resources(and not all did) could have physically walked away from TWI.
But why walk away from captivity if you don't first realize you are a captive?
Some, sadly, are still not aware that they exhibit behavior that stems from "thought replacement processes" they were subjected to.
No, I wasn't chained to the seat, nor was the door locked. But there was a fear of leaving involved. I was not told that I would die if I left - it was much more subtle. Since I was told that this was the Truth and that VPW was THE Man of God For Our Time, I was afraid to question things. The few times I did, the response was along the lines of, "you can't understand this, since you're not as mature as us spiritually. You just have to trust us." This is, I think, the crux of the matter - broken trust.
Does that make it a "cult"? Depends on your definition. I still have a lot of thinking and habits that were developed during my time in TWI. But then I also have a few mental patterns left over from my Roman Catholic days. The label of "cult" is not as important as, did we trust them, and did they fail to tell us the truth? That's how anyone - even an individual - can engage in "mind control."
Mark,
I think the "fear of leaving" actually is pretty common among religious groups. That was true with the religion of my youth as well as twi. But remember that's all part of the risk and responsibilities one takes on when becoming involved in anything. I also believe this emotion of fear and apprehension is not limited to religions... it's a common occurance.. fear of the unknown.
Regarding asking questions, I asked many questions during my twi stint, and have a stack of letters from hq with the answers. Therefore for me, there is no excuse because when I had questions about something, an attempt was made to get those questions answered. Sometimes the answers were not satisfactory to me, so I had to make a choice to stay or leave. At times, I chose to remain. At other times, I chose to leave. I left a few times during my stint. For instance, before taking the Advanced Class in 1978, I hadn't been to a fellowship in 6 months.
What does all this mean? It means folks need to accept responsibility for their actions and beliefs and quit blaming others for our own decisions we freely made. We got involved in twi of our own freedom of will, and we left that way. Playing the victim card by using "mind control" as an excuse for what you now believe years later was a poor decision in life on your part (if you believe that way, I don't) is just that an excuse for a bad decision. Be thankful to God for all that you have learned, I am.
But, if time permits, the captors feed the captives propaganda that is designed to win the captors over to their way of thinking.
Golly, one may use this line of reasoning for any kind of learning. Anything. One may use this excuse for any religion or university. One may use it for children learning in the second grade.
For me the bottom line is that we were hungry and we ate and the food tasted good, which was why folks hung around for many years. Later, we learned that the fish had some bones. So we had to spit out those bones. OK. Doesn't mean the fish didn't taste good. Doesn't mean the fish wasn't worth eating in the first place. But the main point is, we CHOSE "the fish" or "the propaganda". (Notable exceptions are children and mentally retarded, who don't have a choice). But we fed on that fish ... ate it up. Why? We ate because we were HUNGRY, not because somebody controlled us to eat the fish!
Believing someone controlled you to eat the fish is victim mentality. I think it's a loser.
Now if a twi participant stayed involved for many years and now claims they weren't hungry for answers to being with, well then its ones own fault for getting involved for all that time for all the wrong reasons. Do you believe Dr. Wierwille wanted someone to be involved in twi who didn't really want to be there? HECK no.
Oldies, I personally don`t believe that you have had much experience concerning leaving ANY other religious groups, or you wouldn`t have made that statement.
I challenge you on that statement, because I believe that you are just parroting old twi propaganda.
Seriously Oldies, can you honestly tell us how many religious organizations have you personally been involved with besides twi? How many have you actually participated in, became committed to over a period of time and the tried to leave??
I personally have freely fellowshipped with baptist churches, methodist churches, support groups, spent some time in the catholic church, and the mormon church, plus a home fellowship and an independent church that I helped to start.
Martial arts, volunteer groups, home school networks, bible study groups......all have their *religious* affiliations. I have never EVER had a difficult time leaving any activity or group when participation became problematic or unhealthy. I am 46 years old, I have had numerous life experiences where I stood up for myself, where I based my decisions on what was best for myself and family....yet for a decade in twi, I was completely dominated and controlled. I brokenly complied with every order in spite of my personal feelings and convictions because of their teachins that the mog must be obeyed.
Can you honestly tell me
Why interaction with twi be so much more detrimental than the dozens of other organizations and activities that I have participated in in this lfe???
Why was I so mentally weak (as you have said) only during that particular decade?
Why did I allow myself to be subjected to outragious treatment, things I have never put up with before nor since??? since.
Why did I comply with every order and edict issued, in spite of my personal misgivings?
What about involvement in twi made me so weak and spineless when following it`s doctrines, WHICH incidently were supposed to make me more than a conquerer...spiritually strong....enjoy abundance..etc?
Why has the horrors suffered in twi, the manipulation, the deceit, had such great mpact that I am still struggling after 15 years??
What is it about twi made us vulnerable and willing to endure the horror?
Why is it that the actions enforced in twi still eat at so many of us 20 years later :(
Why is it that in a life time of experiences with a variety of people, the only time that I tolerated this treatment was during the decade spent in twi.
TWI wasn`t your run of the mill garden variety religious group, as you intimated oldies....else we could have walked away from it just like we did every other activity that we grew weary of.
I think that if you oldies, had ever been a part of anything besides twi...instead of basing your assumptions on here say...that you would have a healthier understanding of just exactly what involvement requires for most groups and activities, and not be able to justify twi`s abuses as *normal*
If we were hungry and IF we were presented with an appetizing fish and IF we consumed the fish, but later found the fish to be poisoned, that we were sickened, if some of our family died after consumption of the fish....
IF we found out upon investigation that the fish so freely given was knowingly contaminated...that those serving the fish knew that it was spoiled, but served it anyway ...we would then have cause to complain.
It would not be propaganda to warn, to relate the incident. There is a massive recall of fish as we speak because of contamination. I for one am glad when people chose too speak up.
Whether the fish was contaminated or not is in the mindset of the person making the decision. But that is irrelevant to whether it was a choice or not.
It was a choice. As opposed to freely eating the fish one day, and deciding to freely do so for many years after that, then proclaiming now that we were "forced to eat it." Baloney.
Whether it was tainted or not is another issue entirely ... but the point is we CHOSE to eat.
(Exceptions are the mentally retarded, and children.)
Obviously you don`t have an understanding of control and abuse. Maybe it is baloney to you, but very relevant and important to recognize the manipulation, the control. It helps to understand myself and the mindset that made us vulnerable to such abuse....it helps to recognize it so that it never happens again.
Like I said, I have lived a full adventurous life....before and qafter twi....there have been many blows, many dissapointments, many, many mistakes made.....yet the ONLY time that I have felt that I was abused, or controlled, or manipulated was during the decade of twi.
If what you say is true...that I am a perpetually whining victim, if it were all my fault because of mental defect...wouldn`t I be whining about EVERYTHING that was a dissapointment in my life? Wouldn`t I be making excuses for all of the poor choices that I have made?? Blaming parents, upbringing, marriage, peers...
I am the same woman....Experiences before and after twi......yet there is only one group, one time frame in which I feel toxic, dishonest, manipulative, and controlling...only one group I consider to be dangerous ...that utilizes mind control.... It doesn`t make any sense.
Wouldn`t I be blaming a lot more people for my poor choices if I was simply wanting to dodge responsibility?
I have been taken advantage of, I have made poor choices, I have been decieved both before and since twi...WHY would I not suck it up, square my shoulders and battle on...as with all of the rest of lifes experiences???
In my mind it is because what was taken, what was demanded ...was stolen in GOD`S name...when he had nothing to do with what was being required. It was men using the the authority as God`s representatives to steal that which was not theirs, and using scriptures to justify and excuse their abuses:(
I would be blaming a lot more people for my poor choices if I was simply wanting to dodge responsibility.
Regarding asking questions, I asked many questions during my twi stint, and have a stack of letters from hq with the answers.
Would you care to share some of those letters with us?
snip
------ before taking the Advanced Class in 1978, I hadn't been to a fellowship in 6 months.
Oh my!
The requirements must have certainly changed drastically between 1973, when I took the AC, and 1979, when you took it. In 1973, you had to be an active fellowship participant, preferably in a leadership capacity, tithing faithfully, have your core of prerequisite classes completed, home studies completed, have a recommendation from your branch leader and so on. The only way I can imagine someone could circumvent those requirements would be if they had some sort of inside connections.
snip
We got involved in twi of our own freedom of will, and we left that way.
I beg your pardon, Oldies, not EVERYONE left of their own freedom of will.
Some were tossed out in the middle of the night like a sack of garbage.
I personally witnessed this on more than one occasion.
And in case you have failed to notice, there are some amongst us who were born into TWI.
They had no choice in their participation.
If you ask me, I think your mind is STILL under control of the pleasant memories you have of a motorcycle trip that happened decades ago.
What does all this mean? It means folks need to accept responsibility for their actions and beliefs and quit blaming others for our own decisions we freely made. We got involved in twi of our own freedom of will, and we left that way. Playing the victim card by using "mind control" as an excuse for what you now believe years later was a poor decision in life on your part (if you believe that way, I don't) is just that an excuse for a bad decision. Be thankful to God for all that you have learned, I am.
Whether the fish was contaminated or not is in the mindset of the person making the decision. But that is irrelevant to whether it was a choice or not.
It was a choice. As opposed to freely eating the fish one day, and deciding to freely do so for many years after that, then proclaiming now that we were "forced to eat it." Baloney.
Whether it was tainted or not is another issue entirely ... but the point is we CHOSE to eat.
(Exceptions are the mentally retarded, and children.)
No, it's not another issue. The fact that it was tainted and still served knowingly IS THE POINT. It is the difference between "honest mistakes" on their part, and "deliberate deception." We don't say were "forced" to eat it. But we made the choice based on false information and deception.
Now I will say there were some lower level leadership who probably didn't know of the deception, at least as deeply. There were twig leaders and even WOWs who propagated the lies without looking into it. This is how deceptive mind control can be. Not only do the top leaders knowingly serve up the bad fish (to extend this analogy) but they convince others who don't know any better to keep serving it too. That removes them from the guilt, in their minds.
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Tex
Hi, Thanks for all these comments about the podcast. The discussion is fascinating. I have a blog in which I respond to some of these concerns. If you'd like to check out the blog, please come to http://losingtheway.blogspot.com. I always welcome your comments there as well. Thanks again for listening.
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excathedra
oldies, i find that term "victim mentality propaganda" very offensive, to me personally
i have never, and would never, set out to share rumors / information just to hurt vpw's memory or "the way international"
telling what happened to me, is what happened
thank you rocky for the post about empathy
many people can do that and actually do that, i'm thankful
"understanding" is something else again. maybe one has to live through it, which is why i so relate to and appreciate "tex"
i try to be empathetic toward your viewpoint oldies and others
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excathedra
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ohmygosh i just went on your blog, tex
you know what's really crazy in a wonderful way
you referred to "Gaslight" and that's the second time today i read about that book / movie
and the first time was on a totally unrelated forum which i was on a couple of hours ago
spooky :)
in a very cool kind of way
thanks so much
love,ex
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excathedra
actually the new forum i'm on is mostly europeans and they called it "gaslamp effect" but i'm so excited just the same
could this be a SIGN ????? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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excathedra
dearest kris, i'm listening to janis ian and thinking of you
are you familiar with her ?
love, me
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excathedra
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Mark Clarke
No, I wasn't chained to the seat, nor was the door locked. But there was a fear of leaving involved. I was not told that I would die if I left - it was much more subtle. Since I was told that this was the Truth and that VPW was THE Man of God For Our Time, I was afraid to question things. The few times I did, the response was along the lines of, "you can't understand this, since you're not as mature as us spiritually. You just have to trust us." This is, I think, the crux of the matter - broken trust.
Does that make it a "cult"? Depends on your definition. I still have a lot of thinking and habits that were developed during my time in TWI. But then I also have a few mental patterns left over from my Roman Catholic days. The label of "cult" is not as important as, did we trust them, and did they fail to tell us the truth? That's how anyone - even an individual - can engage in "mind control."
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waysider
Well, you see, Oldies, this observation demonstrates that you have not quite grasped the essence of the term "mind control".
What you are describing would commonly be referred to as "physical restraint".
During times of war, POW's are "physically restrained" because that is the course of action that suits the purposes of their captors .
They, the captors, have to physically restrain them, the captives, because they, the captors, can't control the captives thoughts(minds) and thus, their desire to escape.
But, if time permits, the captors feed the captives propaganda that is designed to win the captors over to their way of thinking.
Once they succeed at this, no chains or guns or locks are necessary because they don't realize they have been "reprogrammed" to think that their actions stem from free will.
Yes, many who had transportation and financial resources(and not all did) could have physically walked away from TWI.
But why walk away from captivity if you don't first realize you are a captive?
Some, sadly, are still not aware that they exhibit behavior that stems from "thought replacement processes" they were subjected to.
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excathedra
thanks mark and waysider. i was feeling embarrassed sitting here all by myself
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oldiesman
Mark,
I think the "fear of leaving" actually is pretty common among religious groups. That was true with the religion of my youth as well as twi. But remember that's all part of the risk and responsibilities one takes on when becoming involved in anything. I also believe this emotion of fear and apprehension is not limited to religions... it's a common occurance.. fear of the unknown.
Regarding asking questions, I asked many questions during my twi stint, and have a stack of letters from hq with the answers. Therefore for me, there is no excuse because when I had questions about something, an attempt was made to get those questions answered. Sometimes the answers were not satisfactory to me, so I had to make a choice to stay or leave. At times, I chose to remain. At other times, I chose to leave. I left a few times during my stint. For instance, before taking the Advanced Class in 1978, I hadn't been to a fellowship in 6 months.
What does all this mean? It means folks need to accept responsibility for their actions and beliefs and quit blaming others for our own decisions we freely made. We got involved in twi of our own freedom of will, and we left that way. Playing the victim card by using "mind control" as an excuse for what you now believe years later was a poor decision in life on your part (if you believe that way, I don't) is just that an excuse for a bad decision. Be thankful to God for all that you have learned, I am.
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oldiesman
Golly, one may use this line of reasoning for any kind of learning. Anything. One may use this excuse for any religion or university. One may use it for children learning in the second grade.
For me the bottom line is that we were hungry and we ate and the food tasted good, which was why folks hung around for many years. Later, we learned that the fish had some bones. So we had to spit out those bones. OK. Doesn't mean the fish didn't taste good. Doesn't mean the fish wasn't worth eating in the first place. But the main point is, we CHOSE "the fish" or "the propaganda". (Notable exceptions are children and mentally retarded, who don't have a choice). But we fed on that fish ... ate it up. Why? We ate because we were HUNGRY, not because somebody controlled us to eat the fish!
Believing someone controlled you to eat the fish is victim mentality. I think it's a loser.
Now if a twi participant stayed involved for many years and now claims they weren't hungry for answers to being with, well then its ones own fault for getting involved for all that time for all the wrong reasons. Do you believe Dr. Wierwille wanted someone to be involved in twi who didn't really want to be there? HECK no.
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rascal
Oldies, I personally don`t believe that you have had much experience concerning leaving ANY other religious groups, or you wouldn`t have made that statement.
I challenge you on that statement, because I believe that you are just parroting old twi propaganda.
Seriously Oldies, can you honestly tell us how many religious organizations have you personally been involved with besides twi? How many have you actually participated in, became committed to over a period of time and the tried to leave??
I personally have freely fellowshipped with baptist churches, methodist churches, support groups, spent some time in the catholic church, and the mormon church, plus a home fellowship and an independent church that I helped to start.
Martial arts, volunteer groups, home school networks, bible study groups......all have their *religious* affiliations. I have never EVER had a difficult time leaving any activity or group when participation became problematic or unhealthy. I am 46 years old, I have had numerous life experiences where I stood up for myself, where I based my decisions on what was best for myself and family....yet for a decade in twi, I was completely dominated and controlled. I brokenly complied with every order in spite of my personal feelings and convictions because of their teachins that the mog must be obeyed.
Can you honestly tell me
Why interaction with twi be so much more detrimental than the dozens of other organizations and activities that I have participated in in this lfe???
Why was I so mentally weak (as you have said) only during that particular decade?
Why did I allow myself to be subjected to outragious treatment, things I have never put up with before nor since??? since.
Why did I comply with every order and edict issued, in spite of my personal misgivings?
What about involvement in twi made me so weak and spineless when following it`s doctrines, WHICH incidently were supposed to make me more than a conquerer...spiritually strong....enjoy abundance..etc?
Why has the horrors suffered in twi, the manipulation, the deceit, had such great mpact that I am still struggling after 15 years??
What is it about twi made us vulnerable and willing to endure the horror?
Why is it that the actions enforced in twi still eat at so many of us 20 years later :(
Why is it that in a life time of experiences with a variety of people, the only time that I tolerated this treatment was during the decade spent in twi.
TWI wasn`t your run of the mill garden variety religious group, as you intimated oldies....else we could have walked away from it just like we did every other activity that we grew weary of.
I think that if you oldies, had ever been a part of anything besides twi...instead of basing your assumptions on here say...that you would have a healthier understanding of just exactly what involvement requires for most groups and activities, and not be able to justify twi`s abuses as *normal*
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rascal
If we were hungry and IF we were presented with an appetizing fish and IF we consumed the fish, but later found the fish to be poisoned, that we were sickened, if some of our family died after consumption of the fish....
IF we found out upon investigation that the fish so freely given was knowingly contaminated...that those serving the fish knew that it was spoiled, but served it anyway ...we would then have cause to complain.
It would not be propaganda to warn, to relate the incident. There is a massive recall of fish as we speak because of contamination. I for one am glad when people chose too speak up.
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oldiesman
Whether the fish was contaminated or not is in the mindset of the person making the decision. But that is irrelevant to whether it was a choice or not.
It was a choice. As opposed to freely eating the fish one day, and deciding to freely do so for many years after that, then proclaiming now that we were "forced to eat it." Baloney.
Whether it was tainted or not is another issue entirely ... but the point is we CHOSE to eat.
(Exceptions are the mentally retarded, and children.)
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rascal
Obviously you don`t have an understanding of control and abuse. Maybe it is baloney to you, but very relevant and important to recognize the manipulation, the control. It helps to understand myself and the mindset that made us vulnerable to such abuse....it helps to recognize it so that it never happens again.
Like I said, I have lived a full adventurous life....before and qafter twi....there have been many blows, many dissapointments, many, many mistakes made.....yet the ONLY time that I have felt that I was abused, or controlled, or manipulated was during the decade of twi.
If what you say is true...that I am a perpetually whining victim, if it were all my fault because of mental defect...wouldn`t I be whining about EVERYTHING that was a dissapointment in my life? Wouldn`t I be making excuses for all of the poor choices that I have made?? Blaming parents, upbringing, marriage, peers...
I am the same woman....Experiences before and after twi......yet there is only one group, one time frame in which I feel toxic, dishonest, manipulative, and controlling...only one group I consider to be dangerous ...that utilizes mind control.... It doesn`t make any sense.
Wouldn`t I be blaming a lot more people for my poor choices if I was simply wanting to dodge responsibility?
I have been taken advantage of, I have made poor choices, I have been decieved both before and since twi...WHY would I not suck it up, square my shoulders and battle on...as with all of the rest of lifes experiences???
In my mind it is because what was taken, what was demanded ...was stolen in GOD`S name...when he had nothing to do with what was being required. It was men using the the authority as God`s representatives to steal that which was not theirs, and using scriptures to justify and excuse their abuses:(
I would be blaming a lot more people for my poor choices if I was simply wanting to dodge responsibility.
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waysider
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waysider
If you ask me, I think your mind is STILL under control of the pleasant memories you have of a motorcycle trip that happened decades ago.
You got hoodwinked like the rest of us.
IMO
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excathedra
oh, never mind
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oldiesman
Waysider,
I agree with your statement about the kids and have said so.
Regarding the folks who were thrown out like a sack of garbage:
Why didn't twi just employ their decades old established "mind control" techniques to dominate their thoughts and wills?
Seems so much easier than tossing someone out in the middle of the night?
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Mark Clarke
No, it's not another issue. The fact that it was tainted and still served knowingly IS THE POINT. It is the difference between "honest mistakes" on their part, and "deliberate deception." We don't say were "forced" to eat it. But we made the choice based on false information and deception.
Now I will say there were some lower level leadership who probably didn't know of the deception, at least as deeply. There were twig leaders and even WOWs who propagated the lies without looking into it. This is how deceptive mind control can be. Not only do the top leaders knowingly serve up the bad fish (to extend this analogy) but they convince others who don't know any better to keep serving it too. That removes them from the guilt, in their minds.
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oldiesman
Even if true, that still doesn't prove there was mind control involved. We still made the choice which you said so yourself.
Hypothetically, what if Christianity turns out to be false? Does that mean all the teachers and preachers employed mind control techniques?
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waysider
Oldies
You either:
1. Have no idea of what mind control really is.
-----------or-------------------------
2. Have failed to recognize that you too were affected.
------------------------------------------------------
Hypothetically, what if Christianity turns out to be false? Does that mean all the teachers and preachers employed mind control techniques?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's a ridiculous comparison.
What if everything I learned in chemistry 101 turns out to be false? Does that mean my teachers and professors employed mind control techniques?
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oldiesman
If twi's alleged "mind control" techniques were so effective why would they ever need to throw anyone out or mark and avoid anyone?
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waysider
It's called "setting a precedent", Oldies.
(ie: "This could happen to YOU if you get out of line!")
And just for the record, I saw this technique used with great success in Fellow Laborers, as did other posters here who were part of the same program.
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