Here we go again..

[socks]

butnowisee - I'm not thinking immersion either - that would be counter to what I'm proposing.

Going off the grid for a time can have it's advantages, but it's like anything anywhere else - be careful who you walk down a dark alley alone with late at night. Same thing, in my mind. And that's where the connectivity to the exterior comes in - everyone needs to be connected to their "context". Working in a "real world" environment would be preferable IMO, as already stated here by you and others. Jesus worked that way with His followers. As when Jesus had one group of followers that encountered another group, and they took exception to them. His response there opens up a whole view into how Christians should, could work "together" but most don't want to. it's easier to segregate and contain, instead of integrate and hmmm, retain. (gotta get that rhyme thing going, makes it sound better) Christians like to suit up alike. Less work seeing the good guys from the bad guys, y'know.

The common view of pastoring is the sheep and the shepherd. But effective pastoring of a "flock" isn't really about containment, it's about retention. Containing the group in a definable space of some type isn't the goal. Retaining the flock in a healthy state is.

Pastoral functions are going to be transparent a lot of the time. Again, the end goal isn't to elevate the pastor, it's to support the pastorED. But I digress. Again. Oh me be bad. Strap my hide and call me Judy, I'm a going offa the thingie again.

[now I see]

"who's staff, and what are their qualifications?"

No real answers other than something like "an elder oughtena not act that way.."

This statement is complete and utter B*** S***!!

If their "leadership" is so qualified then how come one of them IMO didn't treat his wife very well the whole time he was serving? How convenient to overlook that, surely a minister should be forgiven that slight slip up....he should be pushed up the chain again so he can serve...I'm sure its no problem....

Edited March 19, 2008 by pawtucket

[now I see]

Socks, I agree with you, I didn't mean to sound contradictory with the Islam statement, more like an observation of closed societal constraints don't always provide uplifting results...

When I think of some of the great men (women) in the bible, they seem to have incubated and cultivated within themselves a heart for God, and their intimate connection wasn't given horizontally from people, but from above, from God.  Sure they had teachers, but it was what the individual did within his own heart that made that leap into "spiritual perception and awareness" given from God.  I'm not so sure any institution can impart that, it comes from the heart and from God.

[skyrider]

The common view of pastoring is the sheep and the shepherd. But effective pastoring of a "flock" isn't really about containment, it's about retention. Containing the group in a definable space of some type isn't the goal. Retaining the flock in a healthy state is.

Yeah.....and if that shepherd (pastor) isn't LEADING THEM TO GREENER PASTURES.......he's "killing them softly with containment."

[brideofjc]

butnowisee - I'm not thinking immersion either - that would be counter to what I'm proposing.

Going off the grid for a time can have it's advantages, but it's like anything anywhere else - be careful who you walk down a dark alley alone with late at night. Same thing, in my mind. And that's where the connectivity to the exterior comes in - everyone needs to be connected to their "context". Working in a "real world" environment would be preferable IMO, as already stated here by you and others. Jesus worked that way with His followers. As when Jesus had one group of followers that encountered another group, and they took exception to them. His response there opens up a whole view into how Christians should, could work "together" but most don't want to. it's easier to segregate and contain, instead of integrate and hmmm, retain. (gotta get that rhyme thing going, makes it sound better) Christians like to suit up alike. Less work seeing the good guys from the bad guys, y'know.

The common view of pastoring is the sheep and the shepherd. But effective pastoring of a "flock" isn't really about containment, it's about retention. Containing the group in a definable space of some type isn't the goal. Retaining the flock in a healthy state is.

Pastoral functions are going to be transparent a lot of the time. Again, the end goal isn't to elevate the pastor, it's to support the pastorED. But I digress. Again. Oh me be bad. Strap my hide and call me Judy, I'm a going offa the thingie again.

Hi Socks,

You list retention as the primary goal, and it should be, but you also mention that containment isn't. Complete containment or isolationism is not, but yet you don't want

your flock to be prey to the wolves either.

Bible colleges and seminaries segregate their enrollees as well, they usually do not isolate but they keep the flock together in a sense so that the less instructed have the

seniors to guide the freshmen, etc. They also offer dorm living so that the younger can learn to share and cafeteria style dinners where all eat 'en masse', so there are some similarities, however if the campus needs any work done, the colleges pay them at least minimum wage.

[Ham]

How convenient to overlook that, surely a minister should be forgiven that slight slip up....he should be pushed up the chain again so he can serve...I'm sure its no problem....

you know what they say. Grace (stupidity) covers (up and sweeps under the carpet) a multitude of sins..

How do you like that for an ultra expanded literal according to usage?

"honorable" counsellors they are, one and all..

[Ham]

Yes men, in search of a cause..

[socks]

Truly true, bride. A learning, training environment where there's that kind of system, recognized by all and accessed willingly could work fine IMO.

Until it doesn't. Everything wears out, breaks down, cracks, shows wear eventually. Some things don't yes, but having pure water still means I have to be careful with the pitcher, knowing that even with extreme care, accidents happen. Not you, not now, not this time, not us, not me O Lord. But reality always speaks the truth regardless of how well I understand it. People will fail and so there's a huge need for connection and support.

Plus, I like everything out in the open where I can see it, hands visible. That way everybody knows what's going on, like ladies and gentlemen.

These guys - Joe Faulkerson. Knew him back in the day, way back. He played a mean set of congas, I remember. And really had a way with those little hand marimbas, the blocks of wood with metal tines, tuned like a harp or piano. He was a great guy. I'm fuzzy, but seems like he'd been studying - chemistry? - when he went to work at the Way. I forget now. No idea what he's been up to, but Joe was a really warm and thoughtful person. I liked him immensely, he always was a good guy to hang with, funny, smart and insightful. If he's still like that he could make a contribution wherever he worked.

Edited March 19, 2008 by socks

[J0nny Ling0]

the blocks of wood with metal tines

Could it be you mean the "kalimba"? I used to haver one, and it was really cool. My Ma was always buying me instruments that didn't take much more than an "ear" to figure out: Jew's harps, harmonicas, a concertina (one of my favorites), and, a kalimba! Neat instrument...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5...ebleKalimba.jpg

Hmm...tried to post the picture. Anybody else?

Edited March 19, 2008 by Jonny Lingo

[WhiteDove]

[socks]

That's the one! Neat pic, WD. They do sound beautiful. Thanks! (marimbas? )

[socks]

But you got that harmonica down, Jonny! Edited March 19, 2008 by socks

[J0nny Ling0]

Why thank you sir! Haven't played much lately though. Nobody around to play with lately. I guess because it all has to happen at night, after work, I haven't pursued it much. Lots to do with the kids, basketball, snowboarding on the weekends (giving them rides to the resort), hone do's, and the general hubub of family life. Alla that ya know...

[Ham]

The common view of pastoring is the sheep and the shepherd. But effective pastoring of a "flock" isn't really about containment, it's about retention. Containing the group in a definable space of some type isn't the goal. Retaining the flock in a healthy state is.

And I think that says a lot of what these "leaders" think of "gawd's people"..

sheep to be coralled in..

there are some comparisons with people I suppose. But as it goes, the ordinary sheep are kind of clueless.. have no idea of who the enemy really is.. they need protection, feeding.. they really weren't made to win a real fight with anything..

on the same notion, sheep aren't exactly suited to clearing large stumps with pickaxes, moving large stones, chopping and stacking firewood.. learning how to butcher and prepare mutton..

and when unable to bear up under the tasks given them by the "masters" of the camp who couldn't bear them themselves, I haven't heard of sheep given the ultimatum by a shepherd: "tow the line, or we'll cancel on you and send you home.."

Maybe they are looking for "super sheep"..

[frank123lol]

Yeah like Super BAAAA!!

[waysider]

Yeah like Super BAAAA!!

---------------------Baaaa!!-------------------------

[socks]

Ham, are we still talking about the Woods bunch? I don't know much about what they're doing, directly but I think I've picked up on a couple threads here that there's some information on who they're connected with, but I can't piece it together. I need the E-Z read version.

What exactly do you know about them, what they're doing, building, cooking, chopping, whatever, and who they're connected/not connected with that you can share with me and the board?

[Ham]

From the LITTLE "they" have chosen to share:

the "kid" values cff movers and shakers as counsellors..

thinks pfal is his heritage of sorts.

there is NO real trained or qualified staff..

experiences as a "fellow laborer" are "surely enough, aren't they?'

dad's on board..

another poster inadvertantly leaked that it's really McM*ILen's project..

when I got to asking about safeguards and oversight.. that's when communications stopped.

Or were cut off.

The only thing I can think.. they probably figure I wouldn't like the answers I'd get..

I gave him/them several weeks for a reply before coming here with it..

[Ham]

Next item.

You'd THINK that they would be open, honest, straightforward about this supposedly godly adventure..

why does just a LITTLE light of day make them run it further underground?

Why are just a few honest concerns met with silence?

I believe they think I wouldn't like the answers.

Perhaps they are following the example of the parent organization. Glad to keep us informed of eveyrthing from pea soups to nuts..

may as well.. looks the same in every other way..

[rhino]

Why are just a few honest concerns met with silence?

why bother to put the site up? The idea of establishing a presence for tax purposes might make sense. I'm not sure it is really evidence, but it is something.

Or it is something someone considering the thang might find ... and they wouldn't find this commentary ... or maybe they would. But if it is a real thang, why not give a few details, instead of just some vague dream? Probably the only real plan is to get workers and pay them by lettingt hem listen to tapes. My off the wall opinion ...

I sure hope they put up details of their schedules and teachings and middle of the night excercise drills on the grid iron ... I really want to see if history repeats itself ...

Maybe there will be an uprising, and the 12 volunteers will mutiny ... they'll take control and turn their masters overseers into their slaves ... arrrgggghhhh matey ...

[Ham]

Hey, if it is in an isolated area as it looks.. whole weeks, or even months might pass, and who would know?

[Ham]

I can see it..

"let's see YOU chop and stack firewood, pull stumps and be able to stay awake through another four hours of senseless drivel, bucko.."

"don't want to work? well you know what they say- no work, no eat.."

[Ham]

I really am starting to think that cff and this little endeavor are married..

just had a little private ceremony..

at the very least they must be engaged.

[Ham]

Here's one of their competitors.

http://www.christinthetetons.org/index.asp...eAction=COMPANY

I would call that an "extreme" adventure.

Notice full disclosure. Phone numbers, hours of operation, etc. etc.

compare:

http://sowersonline.com/default.aspx

No names... no phone numbers.. only contact is through a disposable email address.

"Well, we don't do things like the world does.."

That's pretty obvious.

[Ham]

Well.. gotta give a LITTLE credit. They say what state and county they are in..