I wonder how many of the "board" are technically unemployed at the moment..
it's just a thought.
So they do have some qualifications for running this thing ... they are "bored certified"
So if v2p2 follows the same timetable as old vic ... he will have some thirty years before his ministry takes off, then he'll be replaced and dead thirteen years later ... :(
Why are they doing it? They are futily trying to capture light in a bottle...to vainly relive old glory days and to infuse their own broken down selves with "new and improved" memories and purpose, to feel that old feeling that they are "right" again... or shall I say "righteous" again...they are attempting a "do-over". Perhaps they are trying to erase painful memories and correct the errors of the past, and/or to exercise their own personal demons, maybe it's ego, pride, carnality, maybe a mix of all of the above...
I think they find insular self validation by bringing young people into it; with the hope that their ministry is vital and of God (a retread of the past legacy), the increase of the young people being the validating proof of that to themselves-perhaps it prooves to them that they are on the right track and validates and insures those vp revelations of old are not falling to the ground...Perhaps because Shroyer is no longer in charge is why this has developed and these particular people have stepped forward.
IMO, behind the facade, both are very lost people, one rather naive, the other, seriously messed up and seriously lost, a drowning man looking for something to grab on to..and maybe something to clear his conscious...maybe some self redemtion.
Unfortunately they have rejected the pure, unadulterated salvation of God, and are trying to meet out their own salvation with the work of their own hands, continueing in the traditions of old.
Perhaps because Shroyer is no longer in charge is why this has developed and these particular people have stepped forward.
Shroyer did say he had a few "issues" with "doc" over "putting teeth (and "accountability") in da love of gawd.."
I can almost hear him rolling over in his grave a whole state away.
IMO, behind the facade, both they are very lost people, one rather naive, the other, seriously messed up and seriously lost, a drowning man looking for something to grab on to..
when it doesn't "work", I think they'll turn rather abusive..
..it is god's "responsibility" to honor his word, and therefore, if indeed, god's word is preached, whether in pretense or in truth and love, there will be the resultant "good fruit" promised by its author.........the responsibility of the preacher, teacher, minister or "leader", is to ensure that he does not pervert the message with his own beliefs, needs or desires, thereby reducing god's word to just another "doctrine of men".........that is where vic and his boyz completely missed and miss the boat!......they did the opposite, and those who continue in the "purity" of pfal doctrine will continue treading water in the sea of doubt, speculation, and fear that vic and twi incorporated into their own brand of "christian" religion.
But at the same time that it is God's responsibility to honor HIS WORD, it is our responsibility to HONOR HIM by actually incorporating HIS WORD into our hearts.
vic built his "ministry" on the genuine, loving, idealistic work of you folks who were "honest christians on the field"!......there was no genuine honesty coming from him.......it was folks like you and your wife, and many others, who honestly loved god, and were thrilled at the truth of jesus christ, and joyed at sharing that truth, trying to help people....that were the genuine godly backbone of twi..........as i said, god will not allow his word to fall flat......no matter where it is preached accurately in the love of christ.........and anyone who does so today or any day will see the fruit of that word as it takes root in "good ground" ..........so, jonny, i too believe that where god's word is preached and taught in honesty, love and with integrity........it will produce the results god promises........so preach on brother!
Yes. I think many can attest to the fact that what we found in the 1970's from the local fellowships was a love for others like most of us had never experienced.
as far as forgiving those who have yet to apologize to you, (and most likely never will)......forgive anyone you choose to, if that's what helps you "move on"......the only time i think about any of the liars and thieves who might owe me an apology is when i'm here at the greasespot, reading about some of their latest "achievements" for the lord!.........LOL!........i don't need to forgive them, since they are unrepentant, and don't want my forgiveness anyway..........why waste time casting my pearls before swine???...........nothing they have done or may still be doing affects me at all........"i be fine" too!.........
But DWBH, as I posted to Rascal, the forgiveness is not for them, it is for you, so that you may remove yourself from the equation. So even if they never ask you personally for forgiveness, the Lord Jesus Christ has commanded it to those who choose to follow HIM. So even, because of time, geography or willingness on their parts, etc. cannot fulfill the Lord's command, then you can in your private prayer life, ask the Lord to forgive you for being so delinquent (if such be the case) in your issuance of forgiveness and then simply declare before the Lord's throne that you forgive those who have trespassed against you. For this is the will of God for us, even if we don't like it.
but, since many persist in playing their "man-o-gawd" roles, and continue to teach their doctrines of men as if they were somehow "god-breathed", i continue to do my best to hold them accountable to "the word of god" they claim to believe and teach.....why?.....because there are many whom they have hurt who still suffer, and they are worthy of my support as a member in particular of that body of christ of which we are all members in particular!.......if they seek to glorify the alcoholic, narcissistic, sociopathic, unrepentant serial sexual predator who "fathered" them in the word, and continue to try to whitewash his sepulchre, which is stained with the broken hearts, broken spirits and yes even the blood of so many of his "kids"....i'll continue to speak out about it!!............the truth only hurts those who stand in opposition to it, jonny!............imho......and, as long as twi and any of its splinters continue to promote vic and his bs, while ignoring the biblical commands that they repent for their wrongdoings, and lies, past and present, or, by fancy cover-ups and fair speeches try to deny their roots in vic's sickness-plagued, dysfunctional theology and the outright lies and evil practices of his "way ministry",......then i'll keep on typing and posting away here at the greasespot!.........as long as i'm here, they all know that there is at least one person left who knows firsthand how full of crap they were and are to this day!......and i'm certainly not shy about "sharing" those facts with anyone who wants or needs to know them!
all these folks in cff, ces, this "new" sowers group, etc. remind me of the little mice in that book "who moved my cheese?'... they just keep repeating the same patterns over and over again... it creeps me out...
remind me of the little mice in that book "who moved my cheese?'... they just keep repeating the same patterns over and over again... it creeps me out...
I've read that book!  You're right, it's just like the mice scenarios in that book, the only thing is, if any in these offshoot retread groups ever read that book, they would probaby think it doesn't apply to them, it seems a good healthy dose of ego, arrogance and smugness always applied to the status quo ministry talking heads.  There are reasons why the old twi failed, too bad they just can't, or won't, see it... I dunno, it's all very sad indeed. Â
Speaking of "Here we go again"......the new *sowers* program...
Near the front entrance of the OSC building at twi.....is a mural of George Jess sowing seed. As a sower, Mr. Jess was the first corps director in twi.
all these folks in cff, ces, this "new" sowers group, etc. remind me of the little mice in that book "who moved my cheese?'... they just keep repeating the same patterns over and over again... it creeps me out...
But as I recall from having read that book, there was one intelligent one that made it out! We were asked in college after reading that book to think about which one of the mice that you most related to and it was rather odd that you can see so many patterns there not only for yourself, but for others.
Sometimes I think that the Lord God has more prophets than we know about!
I'd rather go on some kind of journey in life.. why sit around sucking one's thumb, constantly assessing if everything lines up with vic's way of thought..
From an old faart perspective ... it sounds OK ... like a commune ... and get some kids in there to spice things up and do the grunt work ...
But how they could sell this I don't know. I have seen kids that want ranch training go out and work on a ranch, but they get paid and aren't under control 24 hours a day. Who submits to that kinda thing?
Oh yeah, the way corpse folks did ... :o
George Jess the sower ... so he was the coordinator ... but I guess vp was "the teacher" ... it seems that was more of a '60's hangover thang. But then, this new thang is in Mrs. Hippy, so I guess it is related ...
From an old faart perspective ... it sounds OK ... like a commune ... and get some kids in there to spice things up and do the grunt work ...
I would agree.. if the kids could actually have part of and ownership in the "community".
As it stands, the old faarts can boss them around, and if they buck against the insanity, send them packing any time they want.
Where is the community in THAT?
I was promised that headquarters would always be "home" of sorts for me. Nowadays, for me to "go home" would be akin to trying to break INTO a medium security prison..
The kids would be better off in a commune.. in my opinion. Or go for a little trip on the magic bus..
I was promised that headquarters would always be "home" of sorts for me....The kids would be better off in a commune.. in my opinion.
I think you hit the nail on the head on this one Ham, I think they feel the same way and want to go "home" again. One of the models that old vp studied before he started twi was E Stanley Jones' Christian ashrams, what sowers is doing is very much like a commune as was twi.
The only difference is this group is an ultra uber Wierwille loyalist organization, far more than CFF is, myabe more than any other existing organization. They have gone so far as to hold foundational classes using bootleg CD's of the old vp PFAL classes, they are under the belief that doc vp was right, and especially spiritually right, and should be revered and honored, totally ignoring any evidence to the contrary.
Somehow they are not making the connection between the actions they were eye witnesses to from Vp, twi leadership, twi policies and doctrine and how they were harmful to others, they are emotionally tied to the old twi, and cannot see the forest thru the trees, they still believe in the twi unspoken principle that above all else, the ministry be not blamed..People will get hurt.. .Sacrificing the welfare of a human being on the alter of the ministry is not beyond their belief system.  From what I know of members of their group, IMO they are not capable enough to handle the spiritual life of my pet hamster, let alone any other individual’s spiritual, emotional or physical well being…very dangerous stuff.
They have gone so far as to hold foundational classes using bootleg CD's of the old vp PFAL classes, they are under the belief that doc vp was right, and especially spiritually right, and should be revered and honored, totally ignoring any evidence to the contrary.
I am quite aware of this. That's one point where they REALLY lost me a few years ago.. the "chief speaker" at his discerning of spirits class gave such honor to the "teacher" who made it all possible.. and he was supposed to be a real spiritual guy..
With almost glazed over eyes:
"I'm thankful to the MAN of GAWD who revealed these truths to us.."
I almost gagged..
I thought.. sheesh, you're supposed to have some kind of connection, and you don't seem to know ANYTHING about the man you're giving this kind of honor?
I knew better at the time than bringing any of the facts up..
they probably would have imagined they found a half a dozen or so spirits they were talking about to practice with..
The other occurence was just a regular "twig" of sorts.. the teacher chose the "importance of controlling one's mind"..
ranted on about the evils of liberal politics.. more than suggesting that they were spiritually compromised.. and to follow such a belief may very well open one to spirits of homosexuality..
no joke. The real scary thing.. all the others in the room were bobbing their heads up and down in agreement.
I think they feel the same way and want to go "home" again. One of the models that old vp studied before he started twi was E Stanley Jones' Christian ashrams
I had a really interesting discussion with a retiree in the study group my wife and I have attended - he's "retired" but working for a Christian organization that conducts Christian training fellowships, a group that references Jones's work in "contextual Christianity" in their approach to working overseas and in other countries. We talked about "Practical Theology" and the implications of developing Christian faith that's sound in doctrine while being relevant to the times and cultures in which it's lived.
Practical Theology was VP's thing, what he aimed the Way Corps training towards. As a participant and graduate of the whole program I'd have to say we never clearly articulated or had laid out to us exactly what the goals and aims of "Practical Theology" as a pursuit was or was supposed to accomplish. "WOW", "Word in Culture", there was a lot of discussion about that but frankly it was years after the fact that it began to dawn on me what a truly "contextual" approach to Christianity might look and act like, in a way that could be reliably duplicated over and over. I think now that was because the principles and concepts were never put together to form a paradigm that was recordable. Lived, to various extents, but not recorded and kept in a form to pass on and build upon.
In order to have a theology that's practical - applied in some kind of current context - it has to be doctrinally "sound" and lived in an environment that's ethically and morally strong. Whole nother story could go with that but simply having the theology firmed up and laid out won't produce a practice that's morally or ethically strong. That takes, I believe, a strong connection to a Christian community that's built around consistent oversight and pastoring. Yada yada, a "teaching ministry" does not a "practical theology" make, is my point.
I thought of this in regards to this group and their farm or whatever it is and their efforts, whatever they are, which I don't really know. But - anything like the previous "attempt" of The Way Nash to be repeated successfully or say more successfully would IMO have to do more than go off in the woods and read the bible and work up a sweat chopping wood. It has to be connected to something larger, that provides that pastoral element to it. Otherwise, there's no compass, no guiding hand to prevent the effort from going off on it's own tangent. No context that's being expanded out into, to define what the result should look like.
The "5 Corps Objectives" can actually serve that purpose of developing a "practical theology", IMO but only when they're left open ended, and are without the constraints of being used solely to serve a single vision. Left to an individuals own development in the pursuits they choose, they're fine. They could be worded differently, expanded upon, added to. There's a lot of ground that's covered with them.
"Inventing" a whole new culture around "the Word" that strikes to emulate some kind of model based on "the first century church" is probably going to fail, since that first century church is no more, those times and culture are gone. The time that is now is the one in which the Christian faith has to be lived, the world in which we find ourselves. Going off on one's own lends itself to an incestuous environment - the risk is that the "new" culture can't be authentic unless it becomes it's own end result and that acts as an impediment to developing a "practical theology". It's only practical when applied into a very limited scope.
Socks, wouldn't Islam be a prime example of a practical theology in action, especially in the Middle East where the whole culture is appointed toward it? Lot's of room for extremes and abuse within it though, especially with those that believe in Sariah form of Islam, immersion doesn't guarantee success.
The problem with these guys in MS is they've glazed over the problems with twi by either blaming Chris Geer, Martindale, et al, for its downfall, and have blinders on concerning Vp.  So much of the bad about TWI they've kept and embraced.
The individual doesn't stand a chance. Those running this new venture don't get it, they don't get that the body of Christ is an organic entity, and the whole idea of the TWI model was corrupt from the inception, wasn't it TWI that took the God and Christ right out of the picture and put men at the helm instead? Some of the individuals running this thing are severely flawed people and should never be in charge of the flock.  Many were fooled by vic in the old days, it all looked ok on the outside, it sure fooled all of us.
I thought.. sheesh, you're supposed to have some kind of connection, and you don't seem to know ANYTHING about the man you're giving this kind of honor?
Ham,
You know if they came out and admitted that they were part of vp's and twi's deceptions then they'd have to have some personal introspection and evaluation as to their roles in that deception, and they'd have to say, "I'M SORRY"! Â Then they'd have to suffer the loss of people following their organization and walking, as did many when they connected the dots concerning vp and twi. Â Probably too much to ask.
such a belief may very well open one to spirits of homosexuality..
no joke. The real scary thing.. all the others in the room were bobbing their heads up and down in agreement.
That's what I like to see, the good church people walking lockstep behind their preacher! Â Which is worse, the homosexual or the Samaritan? Â More like fear motivation controlling your twig's minds for them so they don't have to do it themselves, isn't that special?
I thought of this in regards to this group and their farm or whatever it is and their efforts, whatever they are, which I don't really know.
I asked at least. Maybe he just didn't like the tone of my voice.. "honestly, your website looks like you are looking for volunteers to cut and stack your firewood, herd your animals.. build the farm.. ya know, this was done once before under much of the same kick their a** and send them home if they won't put up with your .... ethics of the old ministry.. what makes YOU different?"
"is it going to be the same slip-shod kind of program that put God's people in harms way?"
"what kind of safeguards have you put in place?"
"who's staff, and what are their qualifications?"
No real answers other than something like "an elder oughtena not act that way.."
my answer: "These are not accusations, they are my impressions. That's why I'm asking YOU about it FIRST, bubba.."
now, all I hear is static..
It has to be connected to something larger, that provides that pastoral element to it.
I think there is *something* larger connected to it, which chooses to carefully remain hidden.
"It has to be connected to something larger, that provides that pastoral element to it."
I think there is *something* larger connected to it, which chooses to carefully remain hidden.
The whole concept of pulling people out of society to train them to be a minister to people IN society is a little weird, now that I think about it. Does it really tend to make them more spiritual? Or just more isolated and weird, and subject to more control by the "elders".
With the Catholic church, I think there were a couple seminaries that became homosexual dominant. The isolation seemed more able to hide and enable the problem to grow. It became their own little world, even under the supposed control of the Pope.
But you take some young kids and isolate them in the country, and make them subject to the whims of a little band of "leaders" with no clear objectives ... and what do you really have?
The corps principles are not really objectives, they are lofty statements to "inspire" people to obey to commands. It might seem.
Why not apprentice on some real job, make real money, and spend your free time doing whatever the heck you want?
I think I still have a 30 gallon trash bag full of SNS tapes somewhere, if you want indoctrination? And I have all those U of Life teachings ... so that would cover complete teaching on the epistles as they have not been taught since the first century. I wonder what a ten year set of SNS tapes would go for on Ebay ... surely some that are devoted to the vpw breathed word would treasure them. But I digress ....
So I'll close with a song ... "Hey there little red riding hood ... you sure are lookin' goood ... you're everything, a big bad wooolf could want .... " baaaaa
maybe they feel like moses taking the elders up the mount to see gawd..
about the only options I see, either it's sinister as hell, or they're *just* having delusions of grandeur..
the real situation probably lies somewhere in between..
anyway.. I don't think mr "history" learned much from history.
Look what momentus did to ces. It was an "extreme" (but far shorter) adventure, designed for the "elite", those who could supposedly "handle it"..
there were other factors, sure- but the resulting elitism, arrogance and harshness consumed their organization, from the inside out.
It was no more than a weekend or so of intense hazing.
It's an evil, wicked leaven.. give it enough time, and unchecked, it consumes whole organizations.
look at what the legalism, harshness, and arrogance engendered in the corps program did for der vey. loy succeeded in REALLY training goons to bring the harshness that was primarily reserved before for those in "training" to those on the outside.
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mstar1
Well I wont check any questions that have to do with open or transparent, honest, truthful or forthcoming--Those can immediately be checked right off the list I will however give them an "A" for hid
Ham
From Skyrider on another thread: you pathetic "old timers" who snagged junior in this disgrace: what are you doing, that is any bit different? The only thing I can say that MIGHT be different, is
Tzaia
The reality is that most here don't really want to do anything other than badger the heck out of the guy. There are very few people that I've been acquainted with that can hold their own in that kind
rhino
So they do have some qualifications for running this thing ... they are "bored certified"
So if v2p2 follows the same timetable as old vic ... he will have some thirty years before his ministry takes off, then he'll be replaced and dead thirteen years later ... :(
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Ham
It makes me wonder if they have anything better to do with their time..
why not get a hobby..
Where's the "need" for this kind of thing anyway?
Doesn't cff already have some kind of leadership training deal?
I wonder if that won't mean a hill of beans now.
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frank123lol
Apparently they dont have any thing better to do...
This is thier hobby..Its da vord
The need?why to raise new mini mes to take thier places and pay for thier retirements..
Dont know anything about cff,Probably would not be welcome there,Dont toe the line ya know?
I wish mr wierwille well Hope his head is not filled with delusions of grandeur
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now I see
Ham,
Why are they doing it? They are futily trying to capture light in a bottle...to vainly relive old glory days and to infuse their own broken down selves with "new and improved" memories and purpose, to feel that old feeling that they are "right" again... or shall I say "righteous" again...they are attempting a "do-over". Perhaps they are trying to erase painful memories and correct the errors of the past, and/or to exercise their own personal demons, maybe it's ego, pride, carnality, maybe a mix of all of the above...
I think they find insular self validation by bringing young people into it; with the hope that their ministry is vital and of God (a retread of the past legacy), the increase of the young people being the validating proof of that to themselves-perhaps it prooves to them that they are on the right track and validates and insures those vp revelations of old are not falling to the ground...Perhaps because Shroyer is no longer in charge is why this has developed and these particular people have stepped forward.
IMO, behind the facade, both are very lost people, one rather naive, the other, seriously messed up and seriously lost, a drowning man looking for something to grab on to..and maybe something to clear his conscious...maybe some self redemtion.
Unfortunately they have rejected the pure, unadulterated salvation of God, and are trying to meet out their own salvation with the work of their own hands, continueing in the traditions of old.
Just my opinion though...
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Ham
I can almost hear him rolling over in his grave a whole state away.
when it doesn't "work", I think they'll turn rather abusive..
I don't think JP is a naive as he lets on.
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now I see
Ham,
Sounds like a project that is doomed to fail...again.
The problem, at least one of the problems that is, is they are glorying in the wrong man.
Which brings this hymn to mind:
The Solid Rock
My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus' blood and righteousness....
On Christ the solid rock I stand,
All other ground is sinking sand.
All other ground is sinking sand.
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brideofjc
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jen-o
i don't know... it's just plain weird...
all these folks in cff, ces, this "new" sowers group, etc. remind me of the little mice in that book "who moved my cheese?'... they just keep repeating the same patterns over and over again... it creeps me out...
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now I see
I've read that book!  You're right, it's just like the mice scenarios in that book, the only thing is, if any in these offshoot retread groups ever read that book, they would probaby think it doesn't apply to them, it seems a good healthy dose of ego, arrogance and smugness always applied to the status quo ministry talking heads.  There are reasons why the old twi failed, too bad they just can't, or won't, see it... I dunno, it's all very sad indeed. Â
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skyrider
Speaking of "Here we go again"......the new *sowers* program...
Near the front entrance of the OSC building at twi.....is a mural of George Jess sowing seed. As a sower, Mr. Jess was the first corps director in twi.
:blink:
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brideofjc
But as I recall from having read that book, there was one intelligent one that made it out! We were asked in college after reading that book to think about which one of the mice that you most related to and it was rather odd that you can see so many patterns there not only for yourself, but for others.
Sometimes I think that the Lord God has more prophets than we know about!
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Ham
kinda looks like a dog chasing it's own tail, does it?
I can understand why they do it. It's "security".. like an old worn blanket, that a toddler has bonded to, and refuses to relinquish..
you may point out the many holes, molded food, and gaping errors to the toddler, but it makes no difference.
It's... "blankie"..
fifty five year old toddlers can appear rather disgusting..
I think it might take practically a miracle for them to break free.
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Ham
I'd rather go on some kind of journey in life.. why sit around sucking one's thumb, constantly assessing if everything lines up with vic's way of thought..
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rhino
From an old faart perspective ... it sounds OK ... like a commune ... and get some kids in there to spice things up and do the grunt work ...
But how they could sell this I don't know. I have seen kids that want ranch training go out and work on a ranch, but they get paid and aren't under control 24 hours a day. Who submits to that kinda thing?
Oh yeah, the way corpse folks did ... :o
George Jess the sower ... so he was the coordinator ... but I guess vp was "the teacher" ... it seems that was more of a '60's hangover thang. But then, this new thang is in Mrs. Hippy, so I guess it is related ...
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Ham
I would agree.. if the kids could actually have part of and ownership in the "community".
As it stands, the old faarts can boss them around, and if they buck against the insanity, send them packing any time they want.
Where is the community in THAT?
I was promised that headquarters would always be "home" of sorts for me. Nowadays, for me to "go home" would be akin to trying to break INTO a medium security prison..
The kids would be better off in a commune.. in my opinion. Or go for a little trip on the magic bus..
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now I see
I think you hit the nail on the head on this one Ham, I think they feel the same way and want to go "home" again. One of the models that old vp studied before he started twi was E Stanley Jones' Christian ashrams, what sowers is doing is very much like a commune as was twi.
The only difference is this group is an ultra uber Wierwille loyalist organization, far more than CFF is, myabe more than any other existing organization. They have gone so far as to hold foundational classes using bootleg CD's of the old vp PFAL classes, they are under the belief that doc vp was right, and especially spiritually right, and should be revered and honored, totally ignoring any evidence to the contrary.
Somehow they are not making the connection between the actions they were eye witnesses to from Vp, twi leadership, twi policies and doctrine and how they were harmful to others, they are emotionally tied to the old twi, and cannot see the forest thru the trees, they still believe in the twi unspoken principle that above all else, the ministry be not blamed..People will get hurt.. .Sacrificing the welfare of a human being on the alter of the ministry is not beyond their belief system.  From what I know of members of their group, IMO they are not capable enough to handle the spiritual life of my pet hamster, let alone any other individual’s spiritual, emotional or physical well being…very dangerous stuff.
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Ham
I am quite aware of this. That's one point where they REALLY lost me a few years ago.. the "chief speaker" at his discerning of spirits class gave such honor to the "teacher" who made it all possible.. and he was supposed to be a real spiritual guy..
With almost glazed over eyes:
"I'm thankful to the MAN of GAWD who revealed these truths to us.."
I almost gagged..
I thought.. sheesh, you're supposed to have some kind of connection, and you don't seem to know ANYTHING about the man you're giving this kind of honor?
I knew better at the time than bringing any of the facts up..
they probably would have imagined they found a half a dozen or so spirits they were talking about to practice with..
The other occurence was just a regular "twig" of sorts.. the teacher chose the "importance of controlling one's mind"..
ranted on about the evils of liberal politics.. more than suggesting that they were spiritually compromised.. and to follow such a belief may very well open one to spirits of homosexuality..
no joke. The real scary thing.. all the others in the room were bobbing their heads up and down in agreement.
That was it for me..
I haven't been back since.
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socks
I had a really interesting discussion with a retiree in the study group my wife and I have attended - he's "retired" but working for a Christian organization that conducts Christian training fellowships, a group that references Jones's work in "contextual Christianity" in their approach to working overseas and in other countries. We talked about "Practical Theology" and the implications of developing Christian faith that's sound in doctrine while being relevant to the times and cultures in which it's lived.
Practical Theology was VP's thing, what he aimed the Way Corps training towards. As a participant and graduate of the whole program I'd have to say we never clearly articulated or had laid out to us exactly what the goals and aims of "Practical Theology" as a pursuit was or was supposed to accomplish. "WOW", "Word in Culture", there was a lot of discussion about that but frankly it was years after the fact that it began to dawn on me what a truly "contextual" approach to Christianity might look and act like, in a way that could be reliably duplicated over and over. I think now that was because the principles and concepts were never put together to form a paradigm that was recordable. Lived, to various extents, but not recorded and kept in a form to pass on and build upon.
In order to have a theology that's practical - applied in some kind of current context - it has to be doctrinally "sound" and lived in an environment that's ethically and morally strong. Whole nother story could go with that but simply having the theology firmed up and laid out won't produce a practice that's morally or ethically strong. That takes, I believe, a strong connection to a Christian community that's built around consistent oversight and pastoring. Yada yada, a "teaching ministry" does not a "practical theology" make, is my point.
I thought of this in regards to this group and their farm or whatever it is and their efforts, whatever they are, which I don't really know. But - anything like the previous "attempt" of The Way Nash to be repeated successfully or say more successfully would IMO have to do more than go off in the woods and read the bible and work up a sweat chopping wood. It has to be connected to something larger, that provides that pastoral element to it. Otherwise, there's no compass, no guiding hand to prevent the effort from going off on it's own tangent. No context that's being expanded out into, to define what the result should look like.
The "5 Corps Objectives" can actually serve that purpose of developing a "practical theology", IMO but only when they're left open ended, and are without the constraints of being used solely to serve a single vision. Left to an individuals own development in the pursuits they choose, they're fine. They could be worded differently, expanded upon, added to. There's a lot of ground that's covered with them.
"Inventing" a whole new culture around "the Word" that strikes to emulate some kind of model based on "the first century church" is probably going to fail, since that first century church is no more, those times and culture are gone. The time that is now is the one in which the Christian faith has to be lived, the world in which we find ourselves. Going off on one's own lends itself to an incestuous environment - the risk is that the "new" culture can't be authentic unless it becomes it's own end result and that acts as an impediment to developing a "practical theology". It's only practical when applied into a very limited scope.
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now I see
Socks, wouldn't Islam be a prime example of a practical theology in action, especially in the Middle East where the whole culture is appointed toward it? Lot's of room for extremes and abuse within it though, especially with those that believe in Sariah form of Islam, immersion doesn't guarantee success.
The problem with these guys in MS is they've glazed over the problems with twi by either blaming Chris Geer, Martindale, et al, for its downfall, and have blinders on concerning Vp.  So much of the bad about TWI they've kept and embraced.
The individual doesn't stand a chance. Those running this new venture don't get it, they don't get that the body of Christ is an organic entity, and the whole idea of the TWI model was corrupt from the inception, wasn't it TWI that took the God and Christ right out of the picture and put men at the helm instead? Some of the individuals running this thing are severely flawed people and should never be in charge of the flock.  Many were fooled by vic in the old days, it all looked ok on the outside, it sure fooled all of us.
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now I see
You know if they came out and admitted that they were part of vp's and twi's deceptions then they'd have to have some personal introspection and evaluation as to their roles in that deception, and they'd have to say, "I'M SORRY"! Â Then they'd have to suffer the loss of people following their organization and walking, as did many when they connected the dots concerning vp and twi. Â Probably too much to ask.
That's what I like to see, the good church people walking lockstep behind their preacher! Â Which is worse, the homosexual or the Samaritan? Â More like fear motivation controlling your twig's minds for them so they don't have to do it themselves, isn't that special?
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Ham
"is it going to be the same slip-shod kind of program that put God's people in harms way?"
"what kind of safeguards have you put in place?"
"who's staff, and what are their qualifications?"
No real answers other than something like "an elder oughtena not act that way.."
my answer: "These are not accusations, they are my impressions. That's why I'm asking YOU about it FIRST, bubba.."
now, all I hear is static..
I think there is *something* larger connected to it, which chooses to carefully remain hidden.
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rhino
The whole concept of pulling people out of society to train them to be a minister to people IN society is a little weird, now that I think about it. Does it really tend to make them more spiritual? Or just more isolated and weird, and subject to more control by the "elders".
With the Catholic church, I think there were a couple seminaries that became homosexual dominant. The isolation seemed more able to hide and enable the problem to grow. It became their own little world, even under the supposed control of the Pope.
But you take some young kids and isolate them in the country, and make them subject to the whims of a little band of "leaders" with no clear objectives ... and what do you really have?
The corps principles are not really objectives, they are lofty statements to "inspire" people to obey to commands. It might seem.
Why not apprentice on some real job, make real money, and spend your free time doing whatever the heck you want?
I think I still have a 30 gallon trash bag full of SNS tapes somewhere, if you want indoctrination? And I have all those U of Life teachings ... so that would cover complete teaching on the epistles as they have not been taught since the first century.
I wonder what a ten year set of SNS tapes would go for on Ebay ... surely some that are devoted to the vpw breathed word would treasure them. But I digress ....
So I'll close with a song ... "Hey there little red riding hood ... you sure are lookin' goood ... you're everything, a big bad wooolf could want .... " baaaaa
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Ham
maybe they feel like moses taking the elders up the mount to see gawd..
about the only options I see, either it's sinister as hell, or they're *just* having delusions of grandeur..
the real situation probably lies somewhere in between..
anyway.. I don't think mr "history" learned much from history.
Look what momentus did to ces. It was an "extreme" (but far shorter) adventure, designed for the "elite", those who could supposedly "handle it"..
there were other factors, sure- but the resulting elitism, arrogance and harshness consumed their organization, from the inside out.
It was no more than a weekend or so of intense hazing.
It's an evil, wicked leaven.. give it enough time, and unchecked, it consumes whole organizations.
look at what the legalism, harshness, and arrogance engendered in the corps program did for der vey. loy succeeded in REALLY training goons to bring the harshness that was primarily reserved before for those in "training" to those on the outside.
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Ham
doggone double posts..
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