sorry for the techinical difficulties!...............so, there are the questions i asked of nathan friedly.........apparently, nathan has received some instruction from somewhere to not spend much more of his valuable cff "training" time answering any of these questions..........please note, that these are questions, some critical, but all honest..........they are not ad hominen attacks!...........apparently, the vic apologists find it necessary, in their "manic mission" of whiting vic's sepulchre, to post anything they can to direct attention away from these questions and the serious issues they raise...........so, i have taken a little time to try to uncover some of the "no link" facts nathan friedly can't seem to find or remember on his own, despite his loyal cff fellowlaborer access to the sources that could indeed supply many, if not all, of the answers to my questions as well as ham's!
Please note: The views and/or opinions represented on these links do not necessarily reflect those of the Christian Family Fellowship Ministry.
despite the conspicuous appearance of these website links on the cff official website, i'm fairly certain, that nathan would proudly and boldly state that there is "no link" between cff and any of them............and, by browsing those sites, it is indeed difficult to find many specific names mentioned that demonstrate the strong "link" between cff and those who are the leaders, owners, operators, or members of the various boards of directors, admissions, etc...........however, in spite of their attempts to cover-up the strong ties to cff, the content of these various websites which is "open" to public view makes the links quite obvious indeed!............take, for example, the Akribos site, which purports to offer bachelor of theology degrees to those who would be foolish enough to "enroll" in their "accredited" christian seminary............ Denominational Affiliation…
We are a non-denominational seminary, which
holds to the Word of God as the final authority
on any matter of doctrine.
What Makes Us Different...
Akribos Theological Seminary is the only post-
secondary educational institution that builds its
curriculum upon the easily grasped and understood
principles of Biblical Study and Research.
Why Do I Need A Degree…
No one necessarily needs a formal degree ...
However, it has been the called, formally trained,
and degreed men and women in the Body of Christ
who have had the greatest impact in bringing the
light of God's Word to the world.
then, in large, blue, attractive script font, they add.........."TRAINING THE SERVANTS OF TODAY FOR LEADING TOMORROW"............servants?..........where do they find them?...........and, what will these humble "servants" be "leading tomorrow"??..........cff fellowlaborers??...........s.o.w.e.r.s.??..........."non-denominational mega-churches"?? when you try to find the names of the akribos board of directors or board of admissions or faculty...........YOU CAN'T!!..........they are not posted any where that the interested browser can access them..........you'll need "special" passwords or fonts to find out that information!........but, if you look at the "curriculum" akribos offers for its 2-calendar year "traditional; track" bachelor of thelogy degree, you will notice the course numbers and names..........."how to enjoy the bible", e.w. bullinger, along with bullinger's "witness of the stars", figures of speech used in the bible", and "the church epistles"........then, you'll find course descriptions for "the bible tells me so", "the new dynamic church", god's magnified word", "order my steps in thy word", "jesus christ our passover", "jesus christ our promised seed", etc., all without an author's name or the name of a faculty member!!..........seriously!!..........go check it out for yourself!!..........i'm not making this up!! if you really want to have some fun, check out the "accreditation" pedigree of akribos!...........looks like they're right up there with pike's peak seminary!!!.........and, the way college of emporia and the indiana campus!!..........this it just what the world needs, is it not??..........this is where i'd want my kids to get their education, so that they too can be "leading tomorrow"!!.........
what a country!........i'm glad that our government allows the intellectually inept, yet spritually qualified "masses" the freedom to promote and participate in these kinds of "educational" institutions!........the mind boggles at the thought of what these highly trained and educated "servants of today" are going to be able to do for the future of christianity around the world!.........think of the thousands of young christian leaders that will "go forth in areas of concern, interest and need" to feed the poor, heal the sick and carry on in christ's stead!!............why, they'll be bigger than the mormons!!.........that's who they remind me of, although you'd have to reduce the numbers by millions as well as the dollars and amount of time actually spent feeding the poor, or helping in disaster relief projects around the world!! and, just like the mormons, the "leadership" of cff and their "links", will warn against the dangers we questioners pose to them!....they view all such questioners as "apostates", prejudiced critics, personal attackers, and perhaps, worst of all..........intellectuals.........who, by their constant questioning, cause the faithful to "doubt their testimony", and, because of their unbrididled, critical thinking, cause the otherwise faithful followers to "leave the faith"!...........after all, the "leaders" of any really "good" , fascist religious system must never be criticized, or held to account for anything they say or do by "revelation"...........allow me to quote dallin h. oaks, former president of BYU, and current member of the quorum of the 12 apostles of the mormon church: "I also said something else that has excited people: that it's wrong to criticize leaders of the Church, even if the criticism is true, because it diminishes their effectiveness as a servant of the Lord. One can work to correct them by some other means, but don't go about saying that they misbehaved when they were a youngster or whatever. Well, of course, that sounds like religious censorship also"............really??............"religious censorship", eh?........"even if the criticism is true"??..........yup........exactly what it takes to protect your religion and it's leaders from the facts they themselves have produced!! ..........hey, why not?.......works for them!.........worked for vic too!........the doofus from okie tried it too! but, "unfortunately" for martindale and twi, the doofus just did not have enough "natural leadership ability" to pull it off!!
about 16 years ago, boyd h. packer, president of the quorum of the 12 apostles of the mormon church, procalimed from his "watchman's tower" to the world, that the three greatest dangers facing the mormon church and it's continued growth, are "gays/lesbians, feminists and intellectuals"........right about the same time the doofus from okie began his march into the "promised land of the present truth, behind the walls of zion", with the "god-commanded" "homo purge"!........ vic, several times, during "lunch-time sharings" to the in-residence corps during 1972-74, praised joseph smith and brigham young and the mormons, for the way they built and ran their church!.......of course, they were totally devoid of any "doctrinal truths", but they sure "knew how to take care of their own"!!........he admired the way they "handled their finances", and amassed their "great financial fortune".......he wondered if we "corps kids" would show the same strength and determination the mormons did in the face of persecution!.......would we be willing and able to "march across the country, barefooted, pulling those damn carts" if that's what it took to "stand and move the word"??...........would we??.........guess not!..........martindale admired the "practical abilities" of the mormons too.........but, again, his abject lack of "natural leadership ability" combined with that famous neanderthaal intellectual capacity of his, proved to be too little too late to save his sorry "ministry"............and, "rev" wayne clapp and the other cff "leaders" were right there helping him, and carrying out his orders........and, despite their best efforts to establish the "no link" to twi mentality required to be a part of their church, they still carry vic's, lcm's and twi's baggage with them to this day.........but, they lack the honesty and courage to "stand by their man" publically, and "officially" like the mormons do for joseph smith and brigham young...........
so, ham............"here we go again"??............not as long as there's a greasespot cafe that provides a forum for us questioners to ask our questions!!.............their refusal to honestly and openly answer those questions says more about them and their church than all the denials and cover-ups they employ in their attempt to establish their own identity...........like their "father in the word", they are whited sepulchres, broken cisterns which can hold no genuine "water of life"!.............paraphrasing my pal al here..........they are the embodiment of insanity, repeating the same twi formulas over and over again, expecting different results!..........proving that old adage, ya can't get good fruit from a rotten tree!..........................................peace.
"when king okie's loyalty letter went out in march of 1989, both shroyer and clapp willfully chose to "stand" with martindale against geer, and all the rest of the "cop-outs"..........they rose to positions of leadership prominience in the early and mid-1990's.........during a time when king okie pushed twi into the horrors of the "prevailing word in the promised land of the present truth".........which included the infamous "homo purge", absolutely no debt, and the glorious practice of marking and avoiding hapless believers while the dancing prez and his boyz were sexin' it up with any women in the kingdom they desired and badmouthing the rest of the world!.........wayne clapp was running the family corps at rome city for several of those years!.......he was one of martindale's staunchest supporters!........how many humans did he and fern "help" at the behest of martindale? or moynihan?...........how many orders did wayne faithfully carry out which inflicted serious spiritual and psychoemotional harm upon human beings??..........how many lies about former leaders in twi did the clapps joyully pass along to twi followers?.........how many people have they sought out to apologize to for their shameful actions??"
Once again, I whole heartedly agree with this perspective. I have been invited by some quasi-prominent Ex-Way folks who are now part of CFF (who also stayed in during the time DWBH has mentioned here), to be a part of CFF. And during their kind hearted invitations, I never once heard an apology from them. And so, be involved with them? No thanks, they are still dishonest, IMO. For these are the same people who shunned me, my wife and family and treated like less than dirt for not taking The Pledge to Craig. Also, there are many many people here at GSC who stayed through those years, unlike myself who saw the handwriting on the wall, who have never once apologized to me and my wife either. But that's okay, cuz we be fine.
And so, is it possible to have the same doctrine in mind that we learned, and with an honest heart before God, share it with others and not be the same destructive force that TWI became? I think so. But not, if the one doing it had been a part of the maliciousness and has not recognized their part in it, nor apologized for it because they still deny their part in it. They gotta come clean first man. I am still wondering if a certain limb leader will ever apologize to me for the evil he did to me and my wife while up in Alaska. But no doubt he doesn't even think about it, nor t have an inkling of an idea that he so devilishly hurt my wife and I at that time. But could they/he make a reversal, come clean before God and the people they hurt and then share similar TWI doctrine and help people with it? I think so.
For instance, Joey (hah hah!), if you were one to teach people that they could believe and trust God to meet their every need, and that with God's gift of Holy Spirit you could "be more than a conqueror", could "do all things through Christ which strengtheneth you", that your rights as one of God's children included righteousness and, justification through the blood of the Lamb, then I believe that because of your honest heart and true love for God and other people, the doctrines that you learned from TWI and subsequently taught to others, would be blessed by God and would be a blessing to the recipients.
If the doctrine that you taught included many things taught in PFAL (by the way, I have discarded many of the doctrines that I learned in The Way, but have clung to others that I learned as well), I believe that it could be done and not have the same devastating effect that TWI had on so many people, because YOUR GOAL would be to truly Give, as opposed to Take. I mean shoot, tons of us while "on the field" had fantastic results in helping people because we had not been "tapped in" to Mama International and the wicked shenannigans and mind set that went on there. Many folks on the field with pure hearts did many things in the name of our Lord Jesus, because we actually believed that we were in fact honest Christian people.
As for me though, I have stayed away from "splinters". Like I mentioned before, we tried a few for a few years after The Way, but finally I just went and "got a job", and quit "being involved". I still communicate with some, and exchanged biblical view points and testimonials, but I am not involved with any folks much.
Do I forgive the ones who wronged me and others? Yes, and for me it has been very helpful. Okay Joey, I'm going to post this, typos be damned. Peace out... :)
Thanks friend DWBH. Your questions and observations are certainly relevant to the discussion at hand.
These old time "elders of the church" you refer to are the young man's "counsellors".
It's.. all in the family.
I'm sure jp knows full well how abusive the old man could be. I would choose to think that he is intellegent enough to have observed and remember a lot of the abuse inflicted upon God's people in pa's "survivor new knoxville" program.
McM*llen likewise.
Why resurrect a system with such a STRONG potential for abuse, and actually advertises it?
I think the kid doesn't have a clue.. he just thinks or they've convinced him that the rottenness was just something that happened long ago, that couldn't possibly have any relevance to life at hand.
I think they've fed his ego.. got him on some grand expedition where he thinks he's gramps successor.. got him thinking he's got some kind of "ministry".
They may not officially support this fiasco, but the ties to CFF are all too apparent.
I wonder if they have a monument there in rememberance of "da teacher" yet.. wouldn't be suprised.
The worst thing about all of this.. I really do care for these people, and it looks like they are digging themselves a grave they won't be able to climb out of..
The worst thing about all of this.. I really do care for these people, and it looks like they are digging themselves a grave they won't be able to climb out of..
My best guess is the sequel won't play near like the original. They will do their little thing in the woods, maybe have a good time going gently into that good night. Just no way it will have the vigor/deception of the first thang. This will just be a little nostalgia play ... the old folks will enjoy it .. the young kids will move on in five or ten years. Or two or one.
Just an opinion .. but this just seems like a miniature replay of some historic event. It will be fun for the old folks ... but these kids will figure it out soon enough, or if their ego is too big .. maybe they will linger in their little delusion for awhile ...
what was that movie with Kurt Russell where the old furts replayed some high school football game like 20 years later ...?
Perhaps. But then again, look at ces. Look at the viciousness, infighting, false prophecy against false prophecy.
and ten years is a LONG TIME to put off a career.. in ten years, the resources to build one may not even exist.
Maybe the others will move on, but where does that leave a 38 year old megalomaniac who won't be able to explain why he didn't do anything in the field of his degree for the last ten years or so?
"ummm, well, I ran a camp for a few years.."
Maybe that's the plan.. most of these old timers really behind the thing will likely have left this world.. cff will need a new president..
all he needs now is a "doctorate" from akribos or something..
Perhaps. But then again, look at ces. Look at the viciousness, infighting, false prophecy against false prophecy.
and ten years is a LONG TIME to put off a career.. in ten years, the resources to build one may not even exist.
But did CES ever have thousands ina corpse program? It seems the first sequel did not have much draw. The third will be even less.
Maybe the others will move on, but where does that leave a 38 year old megalomaniac who won't be able to explain why he didn't do anything in the field of his degree for the last ten years or so?
"ummm, well, I ran a camp for a few years.."
Maybe that's the plan.. most of these old timers really behind the thing will likely have left this world.. cff will need a new president..
all he needs now is a "doctorate" from akribos or something..
Well, if he is a megalomaniac, maybe we are better off with him secluded in some little MOGFAT delusion in the woods of MS.
hiya jonny lingo!...........i don't know who "joey" is, but i'll take the liberty of speaking for myself...........the unfettered pureness of genuine christian "doctrine" has nothing to do with pfal, vic, the pope, or any denominational interference.......it is god's "responsibility" to honor his word, and therefore, if indeed, god's word is preached, whether in pretense or in truth and love, there will be the resultant "good fruit" promised by its author.........the responsibility of the preacher, teacher, minister or "leader", is to ensure that he does not pervert the message with his own beliefs, needs or desires, thereby reducing god's word to just another "doctrine of men".........that is where vic and his boyz completely missed and miss the boat!......they did the opposite, and those who continue in the "purity" of pfal doctrine will continue treading water in the sea of doubt, speculation, and fear that vic and twi incorporated into their own brand of "christian" religion.
vic built his "ministry" on the genuine, loving, idealistic work of you folks who were "honest christians on the field"!......there was no genuine honesty coming from him.......it was folks like you and your wife, and many others, who honestly loved god, and were thrilled at the truth of jesus christ, and joyed at sharing that truth, trying to help people....that were the genuine godly backbone of twi..........as i said, god will not allow his word to fall flat......no matter where it is preached accurately in the love of christ.........and anyone who does so today or any day will see the fruit of that word as it takes root in "good ground" ..........so, jonny, i too believe that where god's word is preached and taught in honesty, love and with integrity........it will produce the results god promises........so preach on brother!
as far as forgiving those who have yet to apologize to you, (and most likely never will)......forgive anyone you choose to, if that's what helps you "move on"......the only time i think about any of the liars and thieves who might owe me an apology is when i'm here at the greasespot, reading about some of their latest "achievements" for the lord!.........LOL!........i don't need to forgive them, since they are unrepentant, and don't want my forgiveness anyway..........why waste time casting my pearls before swine???...........nothing they have done or may still be doing affects me at all........"i be fine" too!......... but, since many persist in playing their "man-o-gawd" roles, and continue to teach their doctrines of men as if they were somehow "god-breathed", i continue to do my best to hold them accountable to "the word of god" they claim to believe and teach.....why?.....because there are many whom they have hurt who still suffer, and they are worthy of my support as a member in particular of that body of christ of which we are all members in particular!.......if they seek to glorify the alcoholic, narcissistic, sociopathic, unrepentant serial sexual predator who "fathered" them in the word, and continue to try to whitewash his sepulchre, which is stained with the broken hearts, broken spirits and yes even the blood of so many of his "kids"....i'll continue to speak out about it!!............the truth only hurts those who stand in opposition to it, jonny!............imho......and, as long as twi and any of its splinters continue to promote vic and his bs, while ignoring the biblical commands that they repent for their wrongdoings, and lies, past and present, or, by fancy cover-ups and fair speeches try to deny their roots in vic's sickness-plagued, dysfunctional theology and the outright lies and evil practices of his "way ministry",......then i'll keep on typing and posting away here at the greasespot!.........as long as i'm here, they all know that there is at least one person left who knows firsthand how full of crap they were and are to this day!......and i'm certainly not shy about "sharing" those facts with anyone who wants or needs to know them!
i enjoyed your post jonny!......you appear to be a genuinely good-hearted fellow............nice "chattin'" with ya here at the spot!..........................peace.
hi again ham!.........i remember, during the "40th anniversary year", and oftentimes at various gatherings at new knoxville and gunnison, that vic had those special conclaves with and for the wierwille family..........he'd get them all together, you know, children and grandchildren, and pump 'em full of their "special" calling as the "man-o-gawd's bloodline family", and how their individual and collective stand on "the greatness of der verd" was of the utmost importance and significance to gawd!........i distinctly remember don answering one of my questions to him about one such meeting at gunnison, which took place while i was there teaching at a family camp, with, "just be thankful YOU were'nt born into this family!"!!.........LOL!........makes me laugh when i recall his facial expression and tone of voice while saying that!.......
obviously, jp and sarah and their families were there too...........who knows what "legacies" vic was holding them accountable to produce for him?!!..........it appears that they both took them quite a bit more seriously, and far less cynically than don did!!..........the complexities and psychoemotional realities at play in identity formation are extremely powerful, overt and covert, even in "normal", functional families!.......one can only imagine the psychological, emotional, and "spiritual" forces at work in jp and sarah, both of whom were in crucial stages of their identity formation during those years of 1982-1985.........they were both "good people" as far as my interactions and dealings with them, both in my in-residence corps years at hq in the early 70's, and in the 80's when i lived at hq...........they never really tried to take advantage of their "first family" status while they were in-resident corps trainees, although there were some unavoidable "perks" which i'm sure they enjoyed.........but, there were also the unique pressures on them as vic's biological kids which no one else in the corps had to experience!!
i'm not privvy to all they enjoyed, and/or endured during those special, "secret" wierwille family camps!.........and, believe me, i really am truly thankful that i was not "born into" that family, like don said!!!...........however, it is obvious that jp and sarah must have taken some, or maybe many, of the "special revelations" vic had for his "earthly" family seriously to heart, and incorporated them into their personal identity formation processes.........how that impacts their children will continue to unfold before us all who follow the developement of cff, the "ministry" the wierwille's seem to have hitched their family wagon to.......how it impacted them, (jp, sara and their spouses) is unfolding as we post!...........i can only say that i honestly hope they can avoid the horrible mistakes and illnesses that plagued their biological father!.......unfortunately, don could'nt and did'nt..........................................peace.
hiya jonny lingo!...........i don't know who "joey" is, but i'll take the liberty of speaking for myself...........the unfettered pureness of genuine christian "doctrine" has nothing to do with pfal, vic, the pope, or any denominational interference.......it is god's "responsibility" to honor his word, and therefore, if indeed, god's word is preached, whether in pretense or in truth and love, there will be the resultant "good fruit" promised by its author.........the responsibility of the preacher, teacher, minister or "leader", is to ensure that he does not pervert the message with his own beliefs, needs or desires, thereby reducing god's word to just another "doctrine of men".........that is where vic and his boyz completely missed and miss the boat!......they did the opposite, and those who continue in the "purity" of pfal doctrine will continue treading water in the sea of doubt, speculation, and fear that vic and twi incorporated into their own brand of "christian" religion.
vic built his "ministry" on the genuine, loving, idealistic work of you folks who were "honest christians on the field"!......there was no genuine honesty coming from him.......it was folks like you and your wife, and many others, who honestly loved god, and were thrilled at the truth of jesus christ, and joyed at sharing that truth, trying to help people....that were the genuine godly backbone of twi..........as i said, god will not allow his word to fall flat......no matter where it is preached accurately in the love of christ.........and anyone who does so today or any day will see the fruit of that word as it takes root in "good ground" ..........so, jonny, i too believe that where god's word is preached and taught in honesty, love and with integrity........it will produce the results god promises........so preach on brother!
as far as forgiving those who have yet to apologize to you, (and most likely never will)......forgive anyone you choose to, if that's what helps you "move on"......the only time i think about any of the liars and thieves who might owe me an apology is when i'm here at the greasespot, reading about some of their latest "achievements" for the lord!.........LOL!........i don't need to forgive them, since they are unrepentant, and don't want my forgiveness anyway..........why waste time casting my pearls before swine???...........nothing they have done or may still be doing affects me at all........"i be fine" too!......... but, since many persist in playing their "man-o-gawd" roles, and continue to teach their doctrines of men as if they were somehow "god-breathed", i continue to do my best to hold them accountable to "the word of god" they claim to believe and teach.....why?.....because there are many whom they have hurt who still suffer, and they are worthy of my support as a member in particular of that body of christ of which we are all members in particular!.......if they seek to glorify the alcoholic, narcissistic, sociopathic, unrepentant serial sexual predator who "fathered" them in the word, and continue to try to whitewash his sepulchre, which is stained with the broken hearts, broken spirits and yes even the blood of so many of his "kids"....i'll continue to speak out about it!!............the truth only hurts those who stand in opposition to it, jonny!............imho......and, as long as twi and any of its splinters continue to promote vic and his bs, while ignoring the biblical commands that they repent for their wrongdoings, and lies, past and present, or, by fancy cover-ups and fair speeches try to deny their roots in vic's sickness-plagued, dysfunctional theology and the outright lies and evil practices of his "way ministry",......then i'll keep on typing and posting away here at the greasespot!.........as long as i'm here, they all know that there is at least one person left who knows firsthand how full of crap they were and are to this day!......and i'm certainly not shy about "sharing" those facts with anyone who wants or needs to know them!
i enjoyed your post jonny!......you appear to be a genuinely good-hearted fellow............nice "chattin'" with ya here at the spot!..........................peace.
Hey, I thank you for that post, Joey. And, I have to say that I agree with it also. I guess one thing that bugs me, and there are those here who disagree with me on it as well, is that I have believed that VP started out (way back when) actually wanting to help people with God's Word, but then went bad when the power and money showed up. You know; "Power Corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". That he didn't start the whole thing to be a "money and sex farm", but rather, quickly turned his heart that way when all of the power of money and young kids began to flow in. What do you say to that?
hello again, jonny lingo!..........again, i don't know who joey is, but since you quoted my post to you, and then asked me a question, i'll respond to you..........do you have difficulty referring to me as Don'tWorryBeHappy, or DWBH?.......just curious.........
what was in vic's heart and mind before i had personal interactions with him (beginning in 1970 and continuing through to just a few days before he died of cancer in may, 1985)......is hard for me to honestly determine........the "events" he describes as occurring in 1942, which he referred to as the "founding" of his way ministry, are known to me only by what he says about them.....so, whether or not his descriptions of those events reflect a pure-hearted, young christian minister searching for god and his "true word" would only be a matter of my opinion............i did have access to his "personal library" during my in-residence corps years, which he granted me for reasons i do not know..........but, i read the works of rosalind rinker and e. stanley jones which were in that "personal library" of his, and which he had read himself prior to the events he recounts in 1942.........it was obvious to me, that both ms.rinker, and rev.jones, had a strong impact and influence on young vic, especially regarding personal prayer life.......but also with phrases like "the word of god is the will of god", (rosalind rinker wrote that in a pamphlet of her's that i read), "victorious living", and even "god's power to live abundantly" and "abundant living in christ" (e.stanley jones coined those phrases in the several books of his i read in that "personal library").....he was obviously impressed with rev.jones' accounts of his mission and ashram programs in india..........the lasting impact of these two influences is obvious in "works" vic would later call his own...........all i know about vic's being "led into speaking in tongues" by j.e.stiles, in tulsa,ok, 1951, is what he recounted at various sharings to the in-rez corps in '72, '73, and '74, and what he wrote in RTHST, and what is recorded in TW:LIL, and the pfal class, all of which occurred years after the actual event itself............i did read stiles' book on receiving holy spirit, which was also in that "personal library", and noticed immediately the close (literally word-for-word) "similarity to "the holy spirit book! especially after vic added bullinger's "the giver and his gifts" to the manuscript!..........i also read the syllabus vic had to b.g.leonard's "gifts of the spirit" class, which he first took in 1953..........again, the "definitions of the manifestations" almost verbatim repeated in vic's advanced class syllabus, along with the identical scripture references, and even the names "maggie muggins", and "johnny jump-up"!...........quite obvious the impact that class and syllabus had on young vic!!
i also read the books by rufus mosely, glenn clark, albert cliffe, oral roberts and billy graham that were in that "personal library"............even giving oral book reports on a few of them to the in-rez corps during lunchtimes in the brc basement!...........these folks influenced vic during the post war years, 1946-1952........i read vic's pamphlet on "the dilemma of foreign missions in india", and mrs. wierwille's diary of their trip to india in 1955, (her diary that i saw consisted of both handwritten and typed entries she made during the trip.....quite interesting!)........there were also a number of correspondences between vic and his denominational leaders, written after vic's return from india, and including some of the accusations against him, which eventually led to his "separation" from the denomination......there were allegations of "financial improprieties", "deliberate misrepresentations", and even mysteriously veiled references to "personal misconduct" with his "church secretary", among the arguments over his "unofficial" trip to india!.........most intersting indeed....but, again, i was not personally present during any events prior to 1970............so, anything i would have to say about them would be in the category of "my opinion"..........also in that personal library were bullinger's "the church epistles", several volumes of bullinger's journal, "of things to come", bullinger's book on the book of revelation, "the just and the justifier", by charles welch, several volumes of welch's research journal, "the berean expositor", "the great cloud of witnesses", on the book of hebrews, and various other books that i did not read and other titles i do not remember........all-in-all, a vivid experience in reading for me as a 21 year old way corps "volunteer"!
now, as to what "i have to say to that"..........it appeared to me, that during the decade of the 1940's, young vic was really worried about whether or not he had made the right choice by going "into the ministry".......he appears to me to have been genuinely searching for an answer to that nagging question,......those were the years he read e.stanley jones, rosalind rinker, glenn clark, rufus mosely, albert cliffe, oral roberts, billy graham, and various other christian authors, missionaries, theologians, philosophers.........it always intrigued me that vic dated the founding of twi as the 1942 "gas pumps revelation", followed closely by his first vesper chimes broadcast, which followed the "gas pumps" by only a few days or weeks.............i never understood the time lag of 11 to 15 years between the "founding" and the emergence of pfal into the form we came to know, which really did'nt happen until the late 50's and early 60's...........but, imo, the severe "corruption" began for vic in the fall of 1953, when he first taught b.g's. class on gifts of the spirit, calling it his own, by the second time he taught it himself in early 1954........later in 1954, after doc higgins intoduced vic to the works of e.w.bullinger, and vic "ran into" k.c. pillai, pfal began to morph into the class we all took in the 60's, 70's and 80's.....certainly, by the final days in the van wert church in 1956-1957, vic's "misbehavior", financially, sexually, and his unabashed "commitment" to the "fine art" of plagiarism in his academics and "biblical research", were firmly entrenched into his man-of-god persona, with the alcoholism pretty much in place by the mid-to-late 60's............please understand, that my opinions today reflect my entire twi experience, including the last 22 years of post-twi learning, re-examination, re-searching all the twi materials, and the works of those who had the greatest impact on vic's "spiritual developement"..............a long trip from those early in-rez daze, reading as much as i could during the times i had access to that "personal library"!.........i'm not that young, wide-eyed, idealistic, hippie i was back then, but i am surely thankful for all the good experiences i had during the years i spent in twi from 1970 to 1982.........the years from 1982-1988, were not nearly as much fun, but i sure learned alot, and i am truly happy with where my life is at today!
so, jonny lingo............that's all i have to say about that!............................................peace.
........there were also a number of correspondences between vic and his denominational leaders, written after vic's return from india, and including some of the accusations against him, which eventually led to his "separation" from the denomination......there were allegations of "financial improprieties", "deliberate misrepresentations", and even mysteriously veiled references to "personal misconduct" with his "church secretary", among the arguments over his "unofficial" trip to india!.........most intersting indeed....
It sounds like he was "crookeder than a dog's hind leg" even back then. And his improprieties ran the gamut ... sex, money and drugs ... if you count the drug of ... hmmm, ego maybe ... to plagiarize these other men of greater ability. Of course the drug of alcohol came a little later, or maybe it was there earlier.
.....it always intrigued me that vic dated the founding of twi as the 1942 "gas pumps revelation", followed closely by his first vesper chimes broadcast, which followed the "gas pumps" by only a few days or weeks.............i never understood the time lag of 11 to 15 years between the "founding" and the emergence of pfal into the form we came to know, which really did'nt happen until the late 50's and early 60's...........
It seems old vic was a scallywag from the start, or at least from the real start in 1953 or so, about the time most of his largest group of future followers were just being born. While we were learning to walk and talk and read and write, old vic was preparing his snare class for us. That's a lot of years as a scoundrel. :o
Maybe claiming the start of the ministry as the start of WW2, gave him some sort of cover or excuse for not participating in the war effort. He had been called of gawd ... a greater calling?
Then later he would reportedly say perhaps we fought on the wrong side. It seems those war years were influential on many of that generation. I don't recall him talking of what he did then, except in light of "his ministry". I wonder how he avoided the military.
but, imo, the severe "corruption" began for vic in the fall of 1953, when he first taught b.g's. class on gifts of the spirit, calling it his own, by the second time he taught it himself in early 1954........later in 1954, after doc higgins intoduced vic to the works of e.w.bullinger, and vic "ran into" k.c. pillai, pfal began to morph into the class we all took in the 60's, 70's and 80's.....certainly, by the final days in the van wert church in 1956-1957, vic's "misbehavior", financially, sexually, and his unabashed "commitment" to the "fine art" of plagiarism in his academics and "biblical research", were firmly entrenched into his man-of-god persona, with the alcoholism pretty much in place by the mid-to-late 60's............
and the counterfeit MOGFOT was born ... as many of us would come to know all too well.
Personally.. I think they have delusions of grandeur.. I really think they've gone off the deep end..
we have one guy on the board who regards the "fire ring" at hq as some kind of holy place, on par with Arlington Cemetary..
we have another who stumbled through as abused and abuser, and doesn't have a stinking clue.. but has the ego the size of Texas..
another who just goes along with it all.. "well, it's biblical. It's biblical, isn't it?"
"counsellors".. yes men, one and all..
Well I don't know them, but it seems they'd have more fun just doing their commune in the woods, without trying to relive their glory days.
Old vic and the gang did thow that old fastball by us, making us look like fools ... hopefully most have found something more meaningful in life than PFAL promises, and trying to make sense of apparent vicster contradictions.
But why the desperate need to drag some young kids into this..
maybe it'll make the little camping experience in the woods a little more comfortable. Maybe they need omeone to chop and stack the firewood, feed and slaughter the animals, build the farm.. repair the equipment, build the fires, cook the meals.. Iit's obvious they are too old to muster up the kind of stamina to do it themselves.
"This is YOUR farm. It will be what you make of it. You are always welcome here.."
where have I heard that before..
Why put it on the backs of yet another generation of youth..
How many of you guys slaved away at Emporia, Rome City, HQ..
my name is in the little book in the auditorium as a contributor. I wonder if the book is even still there.
Why thank you DWBH! I appreciate that reply! And as far as me calling you "Joey", well, I guess I had mistaken you for someone else. I was thinking you were "Jim Jeltema" which reminds me of the name "Joey". You know, there is a "J" in there...
And so, thank you for that. It seems that, should your recitation be accurate (and I have no reason to suspect otherwise), the collusion went back a ways...
P.S.
Just who was "Jim and Jan Jeltema"? It's a funny thing. There are people in the tiny town of Haines, Alaska, where we lived for eight years, and their names are "Jim and Jan Jurgelite". But my wife, Shannon (always the funny one), has always referred to them as "Jim and Jan Jeltema", because that is the name of some couple that VP used to refer to all of the time. Man oh live! No matter how far we moved from the Lower 48, those memories from our Way Daze still follow! Haha! I guess we are just resigned to it, that period of time. But ya know, as you also said there were some fine times during that time. Weird, huh?
.....certainly, by the final days in the van wert church in 1956-1957, vic's "misbehavior", financially, sexually, and his unabashed "commitment" to the "fine art" of plagiarism in his academics and "biblical research", were firmly entrenched into his man-of-god persona, with the alcoholism pretty much in place by the mid-to-late 60's............
i was born in 1956 but it would be a while before i met my "father" in the word.....
Weird... I watched that slide show in one window while I played that song "Sheep" by Pink Floyd that waysider posted in the "Song of the Moment" thread.
They seemed to fit each other...Kinda like "Dark Side of Oz"
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mstar1
Well I wont check any questions that have to do with open or transparent, honest, truthful or forthcoming--Those can immediately be checked right off the list I will however give them an "A" for hid
Ham
From Skyrider on another thread: you pathetic "old timers" who snagged junior in this disgrace: what are you doing, that is any bit different? The only thing I can say that MIGHT be different, is
Tzaia
The reality is that most here don't really want to do anything other than badger the heck out of the guy. There are very few people that I've been acquainted with that can hold their own in that kind
DontWorryBeHappy
sorry for the techinical difficulties!...............so, there are the questions i asked of nathan friedly.........apparently, nathan has received some instruction from somewhere to not spend much more of his valuable cff "training" time answering any of these questions..........please note, that these are questions, some critical, but all honest..........they are not ad hominen attacks!...........apparently, the vic apologists find it necessary, in their "manic mission" of whiting vic's sepulchre, to post anything they can to direct attention away from these questions and the serious issues they raise...........so, i have taken a little time to try to uncover some of the "no link" facts nathan friedly can't seem to find or remember on his own, despite his loyal cff fellowlaborer access to the sources that could indeed supply many, if not all, of the answers to my questions as well as ham's!
Please note: The views and/or opinions represented on these links do not necessarily reflect those of the Christian Family Fellowship Ministry.
Christian Web sites
SowersOnline.com [NEW]
Fellowlaborers With God
Living Tree Academy
Akribos Theological Fellowship and Seminary
despite the conspicuous appearance of these website links on the cff official website, i'm fairly certain, that nathan would proudly and boldly state that there is "no link" between cff and any of them............and, by browsing those sites, it is indeed difficult to find many specific names mentioned that demonstrate the strong "link" between cff and those who are the leaders, owners, operators, or members of the various boards of directors, admissions, etc...........however, in spite of their attempts to cover-up the strong ties to cff, the content of these various websites which is "open" to public view makes the links quite obvious indeed!............take, for example, the Akribos site, which purports to offer bachelor of theology degrees to those who would be foolish enough to "enroll" in their "accredited" christian seminary............ Denominational Affiliation…
We are a non-denominational seminary, which
holds to the Word of God as the final authority
on any matter of doctrine.
What Makes Us Different...
Akribos Theological Seminary is the only post-
secondary educational institution that builds its
curriculum upon the easily grasped and understood
principles of Biblical Study and Research.
Why Do I Need A Degree…
No one necessarily needs a formal degree ...
However, it has been the called, formally trained,
and degreed men and women in the Body of Christ
who have had the greatest impact in bringing the
light of God's Word to the world.
then, in large, blue, attractive script font, they add.........."TRAINING THE SERVANTS OF TODAY FOR LEADING TOMORROW"............servants?..........where do they find them?...........and, what will these humble "servants" be "leading tomorrow"??..........cff fellowlaborers??...........s.o.w.e.r.s.??..........."non-denominational mega-churches"?? when you try to find the names of the akribos board of directors or board of admissions or faculty...........YOU CAN'T!!..........they are not posted any where that the interested browser can access them..........you'll need "special" passwords or fonts to find out that information!........but, if you look at the "curriculum" akribos offers for its 2-calendar year "traditional; track" bachelor of thelogy degree, you will notice the course numbers and names..........."how to enjoy the bible", e.w. bullinger, along with bullinger's "witness of the stars", figures of speech used in the bible", and "the church epistles"........then, you'll find course descriptions for "the bible tells me so", "the new dynamic church", god's magnified word", "order my steps in thy word", "jesus christ our passover", "jesus christ our promised seed", etc., all without an author's name or the name of a faculty member!!..........seriously!!..........go check it out for yourself!!..........i'm not making this up!! if you really want to have some fun, check out the "accreditation" pedigree of akribos!...........looks like they're right up there with pike's peak seminary!!!.........and, the way college of emporia and the indiana campus!!..........this it just what the world needs, is it not??..........this is where i'd want my kids to get their education, so that they too can be "leading tomorrow"!!.........
what a country!........i'm glad that our government allows the intellectually inept, yet spritually qualified "masses" the freedom to promote and participate in these kinds of "educational" institutions!........the mind boggles at the thought of what these highly trained and educated "servants of today" are going to be able to do for the future of christianity around the world!.........think of the thousands of young christian leaders that will "go forth in areas of concern, interest and need" to feed the poor, heal the sick and carry on in christ's stead!!............why, they'll be bigger than the mormons!!.........that's who they remind me of, although you'd have to reduce the numbers by millions as well as the dollars and amount of time actually spent feeding the poor, or helping in disaster relief projects around the world!! and, just like the mormons, the "leadership" of cff and their "links", will warn against the dangers we questioners pose to them!....they view all such questioners as "apostates", prejudiced critics, personal attackers, and perhaps, worst of all..........intellectuals.........who, by their constant questioning, cause the faithful to "doubt their testimony", and, because of their unbrididled, critical thinking, cause the otherwise faithful followers to "leave the faith"!...........after all, the "leaders" of any really "good" , fascist religious system must never be criticized, or held to account for anything they say or do by "revelation"...........allow me to quote dallin h. oaks, former president of BYU, and current member of the quorum of the 12 apostles of the mormon church: "I also said something else that has excited people: that it's wrong to criticize leaders of the Church, even if the criticism is true, because it diminishes their effectiveness as a servant of the Lord. One can work to correct them by some other means, but don't go about saying that they misbehaved when they were a youngster or whatever. Well, of course, that sounds like religious censorship also"............really??............"religious censorship", eh?........"even if the criticism is true"??..........yup........exactly what it takes to protect your religion and it's leaders from the facts they themselves have produced!! ..........hey, why not?.......works for them!.........worked for vic too!........the doofus from okie tried it too! but, "unfortunately" for martindale and twi, the doofus just did not have enough "natural leadership ability" to pull it off!!
about 16 years ago, boyd h. packer, president of the quorum of the 12 apostles of the mormon church, procalimed from his "watchman's tower" to the world, that the three greatest dangers facing the mormon church and it's continued growth, are "gays/lesbians, feminists and intellectuals"........right about the same time the doofus from okie began his march into the "promised land of the present truth, behind the walls of zion", with the "god-commanded" "homo purge"!........ vic, several times, during "lunch-time sharings" to the in-residence corps during 1972-74, praised joseph smith and brigham young and the mormons, for the way they built and ran their church!.......of course, they were totally devoid of any "doctrinal truths", but they sure "knew how to take care of their own"!!........he admired the way they "handled their finances", and amassed their "great financial fortune".......he wondered if we "corps kids" would show the same strength and determination the mormons did in the face of persecution!.......would we be willing and able to "march across the country, barefooted, pulling those damn carts" if that's what it took to "stand and move the word"??...........would we??.........guess not!..........martindale admired the "practical abilities" of the mormons too.........but, again, his abject lack of "natural leadership ability" combined with that famous neanderthaal intellectual capacity of his, proved to be too little too late to save his sorry "ministry"............and, "rev" wayne clapp and the other cff "leaders" were right there helping him, and carrying out his orders........and, despite their best efforts to establish the "no link" to twi mentality required to be a part of their church, they still carry vic's, lcm's and twi's baggage with them to this day.........but, they lack the honesty and courage to "stand by their man" publically, and "officially" like the mormons do for joseph smith and brigham young...........
so, ham............"here we go again"??............not as long as there's a greasespot cafe that provides a forum for us questioners to ask our questions!!.............their refusal to honestly and openly answer those questions says more about them and their church than all the denials and cover-ups they employ in their attempt to establish their own identity...........like their "father in the word", they are whited sepulchres, broken cisterns which can hold no genuine "water of life"!.............paraphrasing my pal al here..........they are the embodiment of insanity, repeating the same twi formulas over and over again, expecting different results!..........proving that old adage, ya can't get good fruit from a rotten tree!..........................................peace.
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J0nny Ling0
Once again, I whole heartedly agree with this perspective. I have been invited by some quasi-prominent Ex-Way folks who are now part of CFF (who also stayed in during the time DWBH has mentioned here), to be a part of CFF. And during their kind hearted invitations, I never once heard an apology from them. And so, be involved with them? No thanks, they are still dishonest, IMO. For these are the same people who shunned me, my wife and family and treated like less than dirt for not taking The Pledge to Craig. Also, there are many many people here at GSC who stayed through those years, unlike myself who saw the handwriting on the wall, who have never once apologized to me and my wife either. But that's okay, cuz we be fine.
And so, is it possible to have the same doctrine in mind that we learned, and with an honest heart before God, share it with others and not be the same destructive force that TWI became? I think so. But not, if the one doing it had been a part of the maliciousness and has not recognized their part in it, nor apologized for it because they still deny their part in it. They gotta come clean first man. I am still wondering if a certain limb leader will ever apologize to me for the evil he did to me and my wife while up in Alaska. But no doubt he doesn't even think about it, nor t have an inkling of an idea that he so devilishly hurt my wife and I at that time. But could they/he make a reversal, come clean before God and the people they hurt and then share similar TWI doctrine and help people with it? I think so.
For instance, Joey (hah hah!), if you were one to teach people that they could believe and trust God to meet their every need, and that with God's gift of Holy Spirit you could "be more than a conqueror", could "do all things through Christ which strengtheneth you", that your rights as one of God's children included righteousness and, justification through the blood of the Lamb, then I believe that because of your honest heart and true love for God and other people, the doctrines that you learned from TWI and subsequently taught to others, would be blessed by God and would be a blessing to the recipients.
If the doctrine that you taught included many things taught in PFAL (by the way, I have discarded many of the doctrines that I learned in The Way, but have clung to others that I learned as well), I believe that it could be done and not have the same devastating effect that TWI had on so many people, because YOUR GOAL would be to truly Give, as opposed to Take. I mean shoot, tons of us while "on the field" had fantastic results in helping people because we had not been "tapped in" to Mama International and the wicked shenannigans and mind set that went on there. Many folks on the field with pure hearts did many things in the name of our Lord Jesus, because we actually believed that we were in fact honest Christian people.
As for me though, I have stayed away from "splinters". Like I mentioned before, we tried a few for a few years after The Way, but finally I just went and "got a job", and quit "being involved". I still communicate with some, and exchanged biblical view points and testimonials, but I am not involved with any folks much.
Do I forgive the ones who wronged me and others? Yes, and for me it has been very helpful. Okay Joey, I'm going to post this, typos be damned. Peace out... :)
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Ham
Thanks friend DWBH. Your questions and observations are certainly relevant to the discussion at hand.
These old time "elders of the church" you refer to are the young man's "counsellors".
It's.. all in the family.
I'm sure jp knows full well how abusive the old man could be. I would choose to think that he is intellegent enough to have observed and remember a lot of the abuse inflicted upon God's people in pa's "survivor new knoxville" program.
McM*llen likewise.
Why resurrect a system with such a STRONG potential for abuse, and actually advertises it?
I think the kid doesn't have a clue.. he just thinks or they've convinced him that the rottenness was just something that happened long ago, that couldn't possibly have any relevance to life at hand.
I think they've fed his ego.. got him on some grand expedition where he thinks he's gramps successor.. got him thinking he's got some kind of "ministry".
They may not officially support this fiasco, but the ties to CFF are all too apparent.
I wonder if they have a monument there in rememberance of "da teacher" yet.. wouldn't be suprised.
The worst thing about all of this.. I really do care for these people, and it looks like they are digging themselves a grave they won't be able to climb out of..
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rhino
My best guess is the sequel won't play near like the original. They will do their little thing in the woods, maybe have a good time going gently into that good night. Just no way it will have the vigor/deception of the first thang. This will just be a little nostalgia play ... the old folks will enjoy it .. the young kids will move on in five or ten years. Or two or one.
Just an opinion .. but this just seems like a miniature replay of some historic event. It will be fun for the old folks ... but these kids will figure it out soon enough, or if their ego is too big .. maybe they will linger in their little delusion for awhile ...
what was that movie with Kurt Russell where the old furts replayed some high school football game like 20 years later ...?
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Ham
Perhaps. But then again, look at ces. Look at the viciousness, infighting, false prophecy against false prophecy.
and ten years is a LONG TIME to put off a career.. in ten years, the resources to build one may not even exist.
Maybe the others will move on, but where does that leave a 38 year old megalomaniac who won't be able to explain why he didn't do anything in the field of his degree for the last ten years or so?
"ummm, well, I ran a camp for a few years.."
Maybe that's the plan.. most of these old timers really behind the thing will likely have left this world.. cff will need a new president..
all he needs now is a "doctorate" from akribos or something..
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J0nny Ling0
That movie was called "The Best Of Times". Good perspective there Rhino, it may well be on target...
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excathedra
don't join a splinter unless you want to get poked in your little azz again ouch
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rhino
But did CES ever have thousands ina corpse program? It seems the first sequel did not have much draw. The third will be even less.
Well, if he is a megalomaniac, maybe we are better off with him secluded in some little MOGFAT delusion in the woods of MS.
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Ham
Personally.. I think they have delusions of grandeur.. I really think they've gone off the deep end..
we have one guy on the board who regards the "fire ring" at hq as some kind of holy place, on par with Arlington Cemetary..
we have another who stumbled through as abused and abuser, and doesn't have a stinking clue.. but has the ego the size of Texas..
another who just goes along with it all.. "well, it's biblical. It's biblical, isn't it?"
"counsellors".. yes men, one and all..
and one kid.. "groomed" just for the moment..
kid, I'd run if I were you..
you're the one left holding the bag.
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waysider
Now that's just crazy!
Every Fellow Laborer knows the holiest of holy "fire rings" was at LIMB HQ.
Come to think of it, we even laid fresh cut sod around it one night by the light of a full moon.
( I'm not kidding!)
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DontWorryBeHappy
hiya jonny lingo!...........i don't know who "joey" is, but i'll take the liberty of speaking for myself...........the unfettered pureness of genuine christian "doctrine" has nothing to do with pfal, vic, the pope, or any denominational interference.......it is god's "responsibility" to honor his word, and therefore, if indeed, god's word is preached, whether in pretense or in truth and love, there will be the resultant "good fruit" promised by its author.........the responsibility of the preacher, teacher, minister or "leader", is to ensure that he does not pervert the message with his own beliefs, needs or desires, thereby reducing god's word to just another "doctrine of men".........that is where vic and his boyz completely missed and miss the boat!......they did the opposite, and those who continue in the "purity" of pfal doctrine will continue treading water in the sea of doubt, speculation, and fear that vic and twi incorporated into their own brand of "christian" religion.
vic built his "ministry" on the genuine, loving, idealistic work of you folks who were "honest christians on the field"!......there was no genuine honesty coming from him.......it was folks like you and your wife, and many others, who honestly loved god, and were thrilled at the truth of jesus christ, and joyed at sharing that truth, trying to help people....that were the genuine godly backbone of twi..........as i said, god will not allow his word to fall flat......no matter where it is preached accurately in the love of christ.........and anyone who does so today or any day will see the fruit of that word as it takes root in "good ground" ..........so, jonny, i too believe that where god's word is preached and taught in honesty, love and with integrity........it will produce the results god promises........so preach on brother!
as far as forgiving those who have yet to apologize to you, (and most likely never will)......forgive anyone you choose to, if that's what helps you "move on"......the only time i think about any of the liars and thieves who might owe me an apology is when i'm here at the greasespot, reading about some of their latest "achievements" for the lord!.........LOL!........i don't need to forgive them, since they are unrepentant, and don't want my forgiveness anyway..........why waste time casting my pearls before swine???...........nothing they have done or may still be doing affects me at all........"i be fine" too!......... but, since many persist in playing their "man-o-gawd" roles, and continue to teach their doctrines of men as if they were somehow "god-breathed", i continue to do my best to hold them accountable to "the word of god" they claim to believe and teach.....why?.....because there are many whom they have hurt who still suffer, and they are worthy of my support as a member in particular of that body of christ of which we are all members in particular!.......if they seek to glorify the alcoholic, narcissistic, sociopathic, unrepentant serial sexual predator who "fathered" them in the word, and continue to try to whitewash his sepulchre, which is stained with the broken hearts, broken spirits and yes even the blood of so many of his "kids"....i'll continue to speak out about it!!............the truth only hurts those who stand in opposition to it, jonny!............imho......and, as long as twi and any of its splinters continue to promote vic and his bs, while ignoring the biblical commands that they repent for their wrongdoings, and lies, past and present, or, by fancy cover-ups and fair speeches try to deny their roots in vic's sickness-plagued, dysfunctional theology and the outright lies and evil practices of his "way ministry",......then i'll keep on typing and posting away here at the greasespot!.........as long as i'm here, they all know that there is at least one person left who knows firsthand how full of crap they were and are to this day!......and i'm certainly not shy about "sharing" those facts with anyone who wants or needs to know them!
i enjoyed your post jonny!......you appear to be a genuinely good-hearted fellow............nice "chattin'" with ya here at the spot!..........................peace.
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DontWorryBeHappy
hi again ham!.........i remember, during the "40th anniversary year", and oftentimes at various gatherings at new knoxville and gunnison, that vic had those special conclaves with and for the wierwille family..........he'd get them all together, you know, children and grandchildren, and pump 'em full of their "special" calling as the "man-o-gawd's bloodline family", and how their individual and collective stand on "the greatness of der verd" was of the utmost importance and significance to gawd!........i distinctly remember don answering one of my questions to him about one such meeting at gunnison, which took place while i was there teaching at a family camp, with, "just be thankful YOU were'nt born into this family!"!!.........LOL!........makes me laugh when i recall his facial expression and tone of voice while saying that!.......
obviously, jp and sarah and their families were there too...........who knows what "legacies" vic was holding them accountable to produce for him?!!..........it appears that they both took them quite a bit more seriously, and far less cynically than don did!!..........the complexities and psychoemotional realities at play in identity formation are extremely powerful, overt and covert, even in "normal", functional families!.......one can only imagine the psychological, emotional, and "spiritual" forces at work in jp and sarah, both of whom were in crucial stages of their identity formation during those years of 1982-1985.........they were both "good people" as far as my interactions and dealings with them, both in my in-residence corps years at hq in the early 70's, and in the 80's when i lived at hq...........they never really tried to take advantage of their "first family" status while they were in-resident corps trainees, although there were some unavoidable "perks" which i'm sure they enjoyed.........but, there were also the unique pressures on them as vic's biological kids which no one else in the corps had to experience!!
i'm not privvy to all they enjoyed, and/or endured during those special, "secret" wierwille family camps!.........and, believe me, i really am truly thankful that i was not "born into" that family, like don said!!!...........however, it is obvious that jp and sarah must have taken some, or maybe many, of the "special revelations" vic had for his "earthly" family seriously to heart, and incorporated them into their personal identity formation processes.........how that impacts their children will continue to unfold before us all who follow the developement of cff, the "ministry" the wierwille's seem to have hitched their family wagon to.......how it impacted them, (jp, sara and their spouses) is unfolding as we post!...........i can only say that i honestly hope they can avoid the horrible mistakes and illnesses that plagued their biological father!.......unfortunately, don could'nt and did'nt..........................................peace.
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J0nny Ling0
Hey, I thank you for that post, Joey. And, I have to say that I agree with it also. I guess one thing that bugs me, and there are those here who disagree with me on it as well, is that I have believed that VP started out (way back when) actually wanting to help people with God's Word, but then went bad when the power and money showed up. You know; "Power Corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". That he didn't start the whole thing to be a "money and sex farm", but rather, quickly turned his heart that way when all of the power of money and young kids began to flow in. What do you say to that?
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waysider
Hi, Jonny
I can't speak for DWBH but as for myself, I would have to say we will never know the answer to that question in this lifetime.
The only man who really knew the answer took it with him to his grave.
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DontWorryBeHappy
hello again, jonny lingo!..........again, i don't know who joey is, but since you quoted my post to you, and then asked me a question, i'll respond to you..........do you have difficulty referring to me as Don'tWorryBeHappy, or DWBH?.......just curious.........
what was in vic's heart and mind before i had personal interactions with him (beginning in 1970 and continuing through to just a few days before he died of cancer in may, 1985)......is hard for me to honestly determine........the "events" he describes as occurring in 1942, which he referred to as the "founding" of his way ministry, are known to me only by what he says about them.....so, whether or not his descriptions of those events reflect a pure-hearted, young christian minister searching for god and his "true word" would only be a matter of my opinion............i did have access to his "personal library" during my in-residence corps years, which he granted me for reasons i do not know..........but, i read the works of rosalind rinker and e. stanley jones which were in that "personal library" of his, and which he had read himself prior to the events he recounts in 1942.........it was obvious to me, that both ms.rinker, and rev.jones, had a strong impact and influence on young vic, especially regarding personal prayer life.......but also with phrases like "the word of god is the will of god", (rosalind rinker wrote that in a pamphlet of her's that i read), "victorious living", and even "god's power to live abundantly" and "abundant living in christ" (e.stanley jones coined those phrases in the several books of his i read in that "personal library").....he was obviously impressed with rev.jones' accounts of his mission and ashram programs in india..........the lasting impact of these two influences is obvious in "works" vic would later call his own...........all i know about vic's being "led into speaking in tongues" by j.e.stiles, in tulsa,ok, 1951, is what he recounted at various sharings to the in-rez corps in '72, '73, and '74, and what he wrote in RTHST, and what is recorded in TW:LIL, and the pfal class, all of which occurred years after the actual event itself............i did read stiles' book on receiving holy spirit, which was also in that "personal library", and noticed immediately the close (literally word-for-word) "similarity to "the holy spirit book! especially after vic added bullinger's "the giver and his gifts" to the manuscript!..........i also read the syllabus vic had to b.g.leonard's "gifts of the spirit" class, which he first took in 1953..........again, the "definitions of the manifestations" almost verbatim repeated in vic's advanced class syllabus, along with the identical scripture references, and even the names "maggie muggins", and "johnny jump-up"!...........quite obvious the impact that class and syllabus had on young vic!!
i also read the books by rufus mosely, glenn clark, albert cliffe, oral roberts and billy graham that were in that "personal library"............even giving oral book reports on a few of them to the in-rez corps during lunchtimes in the brc basement!...........these folks influenced vic during the post war years, 1946-1952........i read vic's pamphlet on "the dilemma of foreign missions in india", and mrs. wierwille's diary of their trip to india in 1955, (her diary that i saw consisted of both handwritten and typed entries she made during the trip.....quite interesting!)........there were also a number of correspondences between vic and his denominational leaders, written after vic's return from india, and including some of the accusations against him, which eventually led to his "separation" from the denomination......there were allegations of "financial improprieties", "deliberate misrepresentations", and even mysteriously veiled references to "personal misconduct" with his "church secretary", among the arguments over his "unofficial" trip to india!.........most intersting indeed....but, again, i was not personally present during any events prior to 1970............so, anything i would have to say about them would be in the category of "my opinion"..........also in that personal library were bullinger's "the church epistles", several volumes of bullinger's journal, "of things to come", bullinger's book on the book of revelation, "the just and the justifier", by charles welch, several volumes of welch's research journal, "the berean expositor", "the great cloud of witnesses", on the book of hebrews, and various other books that i did not read and other titles i do not remember........all-in-all, a vivid experience in reading for me as a 21 year old way corps "volunteer"!
now, as to what "i have to say to that"..........it appeared to me, that during the decade of the 1940's, young vic was really worried about whether or not he had made the right choice by going "into the ministry".......he appears to me to have been genuinely searching for an answer to that nagging question,......those were the years he read e.stanley jones, rosalind rinker, glenn clark, rufus mosely, albert cliffe, oral roberts, billy graham, and various other christian authors, missionaries, theologians, philosophers.........it always intrigued me that vic dated the founding of twi as the 1942 "gas pumps revelation", followed closely by his first vesper chimes broadcast, which followed the "gas pumps" by only a few days or weeks.............i never understood the time lag of 11 to 15 years between the "founding" and the emergence of pfal into the form we came to know, which really did'nt happen until the late 50's and early 60's...........but, imo, the severe "corruption" began for vic in the fall of 1953, when he first taught b.g's. class on gifts of the spirit, calling it his own, by the second time he taught it himself in early 1954........later in 1954, after doc higgins intoduced vic to the works of e.w.bullinger, and vic "ran into" k.c. pillai, pfal began to morph into the class we all took in the 60's, 70's and 80's.....certainly, by the final days in the van wert church in 1956-1957, vic's "misbehavior", financially, sexually, and his unabashed "commitment" to the "fine art" of plagiarism in his academics and "biblical research", were firmly entrenched into his man-of-god persona, with the alcoholism pretty much in place by the mid-to-late 60's............please understand, that my opinions today reflect my entire twi experience, including the last 22 years of post-twi learning, re-examination, re-searching all the twi materials, and the works of those who had the greatest impact on vic's "spiritual developement"..............a long trip from those early in-rez daze, reading as much as i could during the times i had access to that "personal library"!.........i'm not that young, wide-eyed, idealistic, hippie i was back then, but i am surely thankful for all the good experiences i had during the years i spent in twi from 1970 to 1982.........the years from 1982-1988, were not nearly as much fun, but i sure learned alot, and i am truly happy with where my life is at today!
so, jonny lingo............that's all i have to say about that!............................................peace.
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rhino
It sounds like he was "crookeder than a dog's hind leg" even back then. And his improprieties ran the gamut ... sex, money and drugs ... if you count the drug of ... hmmm, ego maybe ... to plagiarize these other men of greater ability. Of course the drug of alcohol came a little later, or maybe it was there earlier.
It seems old vic was a scallywag from the start, or at least from the real start in 1953 or so, about the time most of his largest group of future followers were just being born. While we were learning to walk and talk and read and write, old vic was preparing his snare class for us. That's a lot of years as a scoundrel. :oMaybe claiming the start of the ministry as the start of WW2, gave him some sort of cover or excuse for not participating in the war effort. He had been called of gawd ... a greater calling?
Then later he would reportedly say perhaps we fought on the wrong side. It seems those war years were influential on many of that generation. I don't recall him talking of what he did then, except in light of "his ministry". I wonder how he avoided the military.
and the counterfeit MOGFOT was born ... as many of us would come to know all too well.
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rhino
Well I don't know them, but it seems they'd have more fun just doing their commune in the woods, without trying to relive their glory days.
Old vic and the gang did thow that old fastball by us, making us look like fools ... hopefully most have found something more meaningful in life than PFAL promises, and trying to make sense of apparent vicster contradictions.
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Ham
But why the desperate need to drag some young kids into this..
maybe it'll make the little camping experience in the woods a little more comfortable. Maybe they need omeone to chop and stack the firewood, feed and slaughter the animals, build the farm.. repair the equipment, build the fires, cook the meals.. Iit's obvious they are too old to muster up the kind of stamina to do it themselves.
"This is YOUR farm. It will be what you make of it. You are always welcome here.."
where have I heard that before..
Why put it on the backs of yet another generation of youth..
How many of you guys slaved away at Emporia, Rome City, HQ..
my name is in the little book in the auditorium as a contributor. I wonder if the book is even still there.
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J0nny Ling0
Why thank you DWBH! I appreciate that reply! And as far as me calling you "Joey", well, I guess I had mistaken you for someone else. I was thinking you were "Jim Jeltema" which reminds me of the name "Joey". You know, there is a "J" in there...
And so, thank you for that. It seems that, should your recitation be accurate (and I have no reason to suspect otherwise), the collusion went back a ways...
P.S.
Just who was "Jim and Jan Jeltema"? It's a funny thing. There are people in the tiny town of Haines, Alaska, where we lived for eight years, and their names are "Jim and Jan Jurgelite". But my wife, Shannon (always the funny one), has always referred to them as "Jim and Jan Jeltema", because that is the name of some couple that VP used to refer to all of the time. Man oh live! No matter how far we moved from the Lower 48, those memories from our Way Daze still follow! Haha! I guess we are just resigned to it, that period of time. But ya know, as you also said there were some fine times during that time. Weird, huh?
Anyhoo, peace to you too DWBH...
Jonny Lingo
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excathedra
damn don39 you have a really good memory !!!!!
i was born in 1956 but it would be a while before i met my "father" in the word.....
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Cynic
Excuse me if someone has already posted this:
http://www.dougmcmullan.com/slideshow_2.htm
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doojable
Weird... I watched that slide show in one window while I played that song "Sheep" by Pink Floyd that waysider posted in the "Song of the Moment" thread.
They seemed to fit each other...Kinda like "Dark Side of Oz"
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Cynic
I just saw where Rhino had previously posted a link to the slideshow. Oh, well.
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Ham
I wonder how many of the "board" are technically unemployed at the moment..
it's just a thought.
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