Here we go again..

[Ham]

I'd like to make a small comparison..

what are "nunneries" turning out these days?

Here's one who teaches chemistry and biochemistry:

http://www.odu.edu/webroot/orgs/IA/univers...2122007040147PM

here's one who will likely be able to teach graduate courses in literature:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...750C0A96E958260

''There is a strong feeling that you need to explore all the options, explore all your gifts so you would have something to give other people,'' said Mother Lucia Cuppens, who first visited the abbey in 1970 but didn't join until 1979, after she had completed her doctorate in literature at Yale, with a concentration in Shakespeare

.

There are well over a hundred nuns in the u.s. who have a REAL doctorate in Mathmatics..

what are they doing?

Raising up chemists, physicists, engineers, more math people.. among other things. Trying to improve the economy despite insane governments in some parts of the world.. or just helping ordinary people with a career, so they can properly support themselves and their family.

And we were "warned" of the dire consequences of their beliefs.. trinity and all ya know..

The Way Corps was FOR THE MOST PART, an utter, abysmal failure..

what did it produce?

A FEW good apples. I know them too.

But for the most part, I think what came out were not leaders and workers, but trained sycophants, honed in a carefully crafted shell game, a scam where they live on the backs of others. Along with meddlesome tyrants who aren't happy unless they have their nose in every crevice of your life..

and abusers, both sexual and psychological..

Look at gear, loy, lynn, the guy with the tinfoil hat.. what's his name.. and others. They don't know how to do anything else, for the most part. at least lynn did something "secular"- I'll give him that much credit.

"believe to bring MATERIAL ABUNDANCE to yourself (we really mean) the ministry".

Sorry.. to me, this newfangled thing looks the same as the old.

unless they have a five year plan to get these "inductees" through school, or something legitimate, it's doomed..

Edited February 14, 2008 by Ham

[rhino]

Have I got this right??........

CFF has an outreach program....where individuals are sent out to nearby cities to work, to witness AND to offer their "foundational class."?

Also, CFF has established a fellow-laborers program in Ohio.....kinda like twi used to have?

Also, CFF is NOW establishing a Corps training program...........24/7 training (??) for candidates that qualify and want to pay money to chop wood, weed gardens, plant corn, bake rhubarb pie, etc. AND learn some Bible verses and listen to tapes?

AMAZING..!!.......to think that Sar@ Wierwille Gu1gu0 is full-time staff and standing next to her husband near the top of CFF and jp wierwille throwing in his support in this corps-style training.......AND grandson VICTOR PAUL WIERWILLE name recognition.......AND shroyer now out of the picture......

Maybe the TRUE BLUE wierwillite followers are "truly believing" to bring those early twi good ole days back again...!!??

And.......if this corps training center adds a dog kennel with a few German shorthairs, a wierwille barn, and some nightowls.............poof!.........back to 1970 again.

:blink:

I don't know about the CFF outreach program or their foundational class. But it does seem to be the organization behind the Way Corps II. And there does seem to be a massing of Wierwilles ... which is fine by me ... it is nice they could stick together I suppose. It seems a little odd that they would not reveal the CFF brand on their Sowers page ... perhaps it is assumed only their followers will be going there anyway. But I don't see Sowers mentioned on the CFF page either.

Oh, and it doesn't appear the volunteers have to pay, except by way of their labor. Their family camp seemed a little sparse, so it might be hard to draw 12 volunteers to give up almost a year in apparent submission to a 24/7 program.

Of course with Vic2 leading the thing with 12 disciples volunteers, the time in the wilderness seems fair game for our helpful comments. With the obvious comparisons, you have to wonder if these special twelve won't be endued with a special aura of destiny ... as they sit at the campfire and speak softly of the greatness that lies ahead of them ...

Well, they will certainly have plenty of examples of what NOT to do, but it does seem they are starting off down the same path. Pick your rut carefully, you may be in it a long time ...

Edited February 14, 2008 by rhino

[doojable]

Does anyone ever wonder if these kids sit around and swear to not repeat the mistakes of their past? Their Dad. Their Gramps?

I know I would. It is a possibility, even though the packaging doesn't look like something we would be attracted to.

I'm neither defending nor opposing this whole thing. It's not something I would go for and I wouldn't allow my kids to join, for obvious reasons.

From the little bit that can be seen on that website, I believe the program is not framed properly to be successful in the least. That doesn't mean that the people behind it are evil - they may be trying to take what they thought was a good structure and "do it as it was intended."

Just a thought....

Edited February 14, 2008 by doojable

[Ham]

Does anyone ever wonder if these kids sit around and swear to not repeat the mistakes of their past? Their Dad. Their Gramps?

My impression is they don't really KNOW the mistakes gramps made.. I think they were carefully shielded. I don't know what they think of the parents. One son of the innies publically called one of the "twigs" a "geezer fellowship" on a myspace page. Maybe he has half a chance..

but I think the general thought among a lot of them is:

"it was something that happened when I was five years old.. what POSSIBLE RELEVANCE would that have to today?"

I think youngster took at least one history class..

what "possible relevance" could what the British did to China in the last century or so have to do with the current state of affairs..

They just let bygones be bygones and all..

It was just "business" ya know.. supplied a little dope to heat up the economy a little..

sure.. "let's just be friends now.."

;)

But the system they are trying to resurrect, taught people how to live in poverty and grovel..

no college loans, just stay in the same dead end career..no house payments, just keep making the bank payment for some landlord.. no car payments, just own a rust bucket that costs you ten times the maintenance..

and above all, be LOYAL.. give fifteen percent and up, an keep smiiiiiling..

[Ham]

what "possible relevance" could what the British did to China in the last century or so have to do with the current state of affairs..

They can't deliver ICBM's, that I know of, at least yet.. or bring war to our particular shore..

Second best choice? Bury us under a barrage of hard drives, cars, garden implements and kitchen appliances perhaps?

[Ham]

Of course with Vic2 leading the thing with 12 disciples volunteers, the time in the wilderness seems fair game for our helpful comments. With the obvious comparisons, you have to wonder if these special twelve won't be endued with a special aura of destiny ... as they sit at the campfire and speak softly of the greatness that lies ahead of them ...

Sadly, I feel many of my "helpful" comments were considered rather "negative"..

kinda like.. why ruin "the walk by faith" with a few details..

it's at this point I turn cynical.

At least there is ONE difference between this, and the inception of vic's "corps"..

there are a number of people watching VERY VERY carefully.

Whatever happens, I feel my hands are clean in the matter..

[rhino]

From the little bit that can be seen on that website, I believe the program is not framed properly to be successful in the least. That doesn't mean that the people behind it are evil - they may be trying to take what they thought was a good structure and "do it as it was intended."

I don't think they are evil ... no more so than the well intentioned were in the days of the 70's and early 80's. But the ego and pride does have a way of welling up ... and the concept of training up "leaders" seems to put V2P2 as the mog ... and he is only 24? And the structure seems like an old wineskin.

As for the geezers, they already have a pattern of the old ministry patterns etched in their brain, so that would be hard to escape. Which is why it would seem copying directly from the old patterns only reinforces that other actions will be funneled down the same old path.

It sure seems they want to claim the greatness of the old days as their own. When there are churches around that have to share a minister, yet have quite a few parishoners, I'm skeptical of groups like CFF with several paid staff. I'd certainly want a full disclosure of finances, and a knowledge of who will own this farm that is being improved.

But that's just me ... I'm not joining. Just a fun little topic for a site like this. Maybe the third time is a charm ...

[rhino]

Sadly, I feel many of my "helpful" comments were considered rather "negative"..

kinda like.. why ruin "the walk by faith" with a few details..

it's at this point I turn cynical.

You are clearly more in touch with these folks than I am. For me it is just an interesting external event to chat about.

But considering their copying of several points from the old days, it would seem they would want to be prepared to answer the obvious questions that will arise. What better place for trial by fire than right here?

Carry on my little squirrel friend.

[Ham]

call it an "estranged" relationship..

I know the kid.. and the family.. but I've distanced myself, at least doctrinally..

I've just had enough of the same stuff.. don't hate them or anything..

but when I see something that makes my hair stand on end, I WILL say something..

even if it's not done according to Rocky's etiiquette..

:)

[skyrider]

Does anyone ever wonder if these kids sit around and swear to not repeat the mistakes of their past? Their Dad. Their Gramps?

I know I would. It is a possibility, even though the packaging doesn't look like something we would be attracted to.

I'm neither defending nor opposing this whole thing. It's not something I would go for and I wouldn't allow my kids to join, for obvious reasons.

From the little bit that can be seen on that website, I believe the program is not framed properly to be successful in the least. That doesn't mean that the people behind it are evil - they may be trying to take what they thought was a good structure and "do it as it was intended."

Just a thought....

Like so many ventures.......at this point, it's at its infantile stage where the first group of volunteers should be handled with extreme care, concern and love. I do not doubt this. But I also think, that if as this "training center" moves along........more commitment will be required, obviously.

Questions that arise:

1) Who owns the land?

2) Who are the beneficiaries of this free-labor and land improvements?

3) Will volunteers be doing farmwork.....driving tractor, harvesting grain, feeding livestock???

4) Are those 6-8 people full-time? drawing salaries? qualified instructors? medical assistance?

5) Is there a board of directors over the "corps-style" coordinator?

6) What if someone has a legitimate grievance? Are checks & balances in place?

7) Is "the law of believing" going to be the foundation? What if someone has allergies?

8) Will there be a light-bearers event? Hitch-hiking? Final reports and evaluations filed away?

9) If successful, will a form of caste system evolve like it did in twi?

10) Is this project another attempt to whitewash vpw's past and re-write the twi-story?

Questions? Questions?...........Once (deeply) burned, twice shy.

[Ham]

Those were basically the questions I asked..

maybe slightly more "pointed" however.

:)

Are they going to have some kind of "survival" program like lead? Specifically.. slip shod to the extent people end up losing toes to frostbite..

or something like the rodeo school.. only a few walked off with some broken vertabrae.. broken legs..

or the consequences of putting off a career, an education, twenty years from now..

These were SOME of the consequences I referred to that people DON'T sign on the dotted line for.

Or is it a little "challenge" added as the program turns?

If somebody here has a LOT closer "in" with them here, the above are the questions that I'd be asking.. along with these..

what are the people involved going to write about you, twenty five years from now?

Are they going to find their names plastered all over yet ANOTHER "vomitorium"?

The short term profit- you may get a few who survive, who can muster up enough resources to really move the organization.. maybe even really motivate a crowd..

and I'm sure a *few* good folks will come out of it.. they managed to in the old program..

but what are you going to look like in thirty years..

[skyrider]

Those were basically the questions I asked..

maybe slightly more "pointed" however.

:)

Yeah.....lots of questions, now that over 30 years have passed for some of us.

11) What does 24/7 really mean? Prayer vigils? Sleep deprivation?

12) Do I need sponsors? Parents' weekends? Snack runs to local store?

13) How are Holidays handled? Thanksgiving? Christmas? St. Patricks?

14) At the end of the program, then what? A graduation? Another program? More hoops? Done?

15) Is this "outdoorsy training" equipping one to run fellowships? Run classes? Leadership in cff?

16) Will spiritual protocol be enforced? Adulation for Dr. Wierwille? History of wierwille's ministry?

17) Cell phones? Internet access? DVDs? Music videos? Self-structure time?

18) If sickness or hospitalized for a bit, will I be sent packing? What are your policies?

19) Will there be a curriculum? Hands-on biblical researching? Or, just non-dialogue classes?

20) Will students be handled individually or is this another clone factory?

Questions, questions..........

[doojable]

Maybe I'm just weird. I have no questions because I have no reason to ask.

I'm not considering it. My kids aren't considering it. I don't know anyone who is considering it.

Of course I live far from that particular notch in the Bible belt. If I lived closer I'd be more concerned. But as it stands, that program is just another thing that could have risen and fallen without my input and without affecting my life at all.

I would hate to hear of more people hurt, but I'd hate to hear about that no matter what the program or choice of destruction.

Edited February 14, 2008 by doojable

[skyrider]

Maybe I'm just weird. I have no questions because I have no reason to ask.

I'm not considering it. My kids aren't considering it. I don't know anyone who is considering it.

Of course I live far from that particular notch in the Bible belt. If I lived closer I'd be more concerned. But as it stands, that program is just another thing that could have risen and fallen without my input and without affecting my life at all.

I would hate to hear of more people hurt, but I'd hate to hear about that no matter what the program or choice of destruction.

Maybe I'm just curious.....

Maybe I should write a cult book.

[rhino]

I don't care what they do ... except for the slave labor part, the little farm commune idea seems kinda fun.

But with the volumes writtens here about the old way corpse ... it seems interesting enough to watch what happens with the newest version. Aren't we here like the elders at the gate ... to watch over all these things and offer opinion ... with beer in hand ?

[Ham]

with the dismal volunteer rate for the "real" corps.. maybe rosie should consider "outsourcing"..

could practically sell their current training locations..

[rhino]

with the dismal volunteer rate for the "real" corps.. maybe rosie should consider "outsourcing"..

could practically sell their current training locations..

if it was publicly traded, twi would be ripe for take over ... they are ripe with cash ... other than that, they perform terribly. But since they are private, the BOT will sit on their assets and milk it till they are dead, or till they lose their tax status becasue they do nothing charitable.

at least that is how I see it ...

Edited February 14, 2008 by rhino

[waysider]

In the spirit of fairness, I am posting this link which does clearly show that SOWERS is a product of the CFF organization.

There is also some rather vague information regarding their fellow laborer program.

One of the current members, Nathan, has posted here recently.

It does not appear to resemble the old FLO, which was a 24/7 "in residence" program.

No matter.

I have no intention of participating.

Nope.

Not for all the millet in ------wherever it is they grow millet.

http://www.cffm.org/doc/links.shtml

Edited February 14, 2008 by waysider

[rhino]

In the spirit of fairness, I am posting this link which does clearly show that SOWERS is a product of the CFF organization.

http://www.cffm.org/doc/links.shtml

Well it says the Sowers part is new ... I didn't see it yesterday ... maybe they really do read here ... so we ARE being helpful after all

They grow milo here in the midwest, which looks like millet to me. We had 3000 bushels or so in one bin. At $5 per bushel, that would feed a lot of mouths on the cheap. This guy sells it as bird food.

Edited February 14, 2008 by rhino

[Ham]

Interesting..

Please note: The views and/or opinions represented on these links do not necessarily reflect those of the Christian Family Fellowship Ministry.

That is at least PARTLY encouraging..

but still- I could see my emails traded around in the background..

pretty close knit family.

I wasn't exactly born yesterday..

I know the "routine"

:)

[Ham]

"Whadda I say, whadda I do.."

"nothing, son, nothing.."

when an "elder of the church" has every hair on his body standing upright over an "endeavor"..

It's like.. in the days of Ahab.. what was it.. 350 of them said "go for it, man.."

I really pray they are reading some of this stuff..

only avenue I've got..

:)

[frank123lol]

Interesting..

That is at least PARTLY encouraging..

but still- I could see my emails traded around in the background..

pretty close knit family.

I wasn't exactly born yesterday..

I know the "routine"

:)

Yeah it aint the company line,I was told mind you told not to be radical,and they hardly knew me from adam.So..Do they have preconceived notions?

They oughta bury the godblessed tree,start over from scratch.

They are your father ministry,lock stock and barrel

I told em I was an independant,I know that raised some neck hairs!!

Ham,I enjoy your outlook keep on speaking

[Ham]

Friend, I wish.. I listened to a lot of what you had to say, much sooner

:)

[frank123lol]

Who says ya caint have fellowship at greasespot?

[Ham]

Yeah.. what's interesting, when they have your head bobbing up and down on doctrinal issues, they've pretty much got you..

:)