Here we go again..

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/13/2008 at 1:58 PM, rhino said:

I don't think they owe me any answers ... I'm just curious if they are going to make a bunch of young kids endure old tapes and call that training. Farm work and site development might be good training, but if they went to New Orleans they could make $25/hour for some construction work and get real training. And have a lot more fun with their time off.

But maybe they'll have a good ol' time out in the woods ... it wouldn't be the first time some kids have wasted a year or ten of their formative 20's.

If someone was planning a year in the Sowers thingy .. they might read this and consider a little more deeply what they were getting and what they are giving up. And they might even decide then it is just the ticket for them, but they'd go in with a little stronger position, and less likely to be bowled over.

Rhino, bingo!!!

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/13/2008 at 9:56 PM, Ham said:

Apparently no choice in his "vocation" either. It was "named" for him.

He's been surrounded, carefully groomed by these over the hill moglets who can't run a ministry based on their own name..

He may have good character, but I *think* a pumped ego. And who did that..

I ask again.. why else is he hanging out with a bunch of OLD GEEZERS (and I put myself *almost* in the same category) "coordinating" a Way Corps lookalike program? Why isn't he in grad school?

why.. isn't he building REAL CREDENTIALS AND ABILITIES?

Instead he's hanging out with in my honest opinion.. a bunch of moggish loosers stuck on a dead end street..

and they seem to be rather happy to carry a banner with his name on it..

I have bad feelings about this little venture, almost any way I look at it..

You don't want to know the rest of what I really think about all of this.

Ham, I do!!  What do you really think about this new venture??

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/14/2008 at 10:05 AM, Ham said:

My impression is they don't really KNOW the mistakes gramps made.. I think they were carefully shielded. I don't know what they think of the parents. One son of the innies publically called one of the "twigs" a "geezer fellowship" on a myspace page. Maybe he has half a chance..

but I think the general thought among a lot of them is:

"it was something that happened when I was five years old.. what POSSIBLE RELEVANCE would that have to today?"

I think youngster took at least one history class..

what "possible relevance" could what the British did to China in the last century or so have to do with the current state of affairs..

They just let bygones be bygones and all..

It was just "business" ya know.. supplied a little dope to heat up the economy a little..

sure.. "let's just be friends now.."

;)

But the system they are trying to resurrect, taught people how to live in poverty and grovel..

no college loans, just stay in the same dead end career..no house payments, just keep making the bank payment for some landlord.. no car payments, just own a rust bucket that costs you ten times the maintenance..

and above all, be LOYAL.. give fifteen percent and up, an keep smiiiiiling..

Ham, Lincoln freed the slaves!!  I hope these kids are smarter than we were.  So many of us spent our youth, and money on a cult that was spearheaded by an evil, twisted POS!  If they want to do it, that's their business.  But, they were warned by people who knew what they were talking about.

 

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/14/2008 at 9:17 AM, rhino said:

I don't know about the CFF outreach program or their foundational class. But it does seem to be the organization behind the Way Corps II. And there does seem to be a massing of Wierwilles ... which is fine by me ... it is nice they could stick together I suppose. It seems a little odd that they would not reveal the CFF brand on their Sowers page ... perhaps it is assumed only their followers will be going there anyway. But I don't see Sowers mentioned on the CFF page either.

Oh, and it doesn't appear the volunteers have to pay, except by way of their labor. Their family camp seemed a little sparse, so it might be hard to draw 12 volunteers to give up almost a year in apparent submission to a 24/7 program.

Of course with Vic2 leading the thing with 12 disciples volunteers, the time in the wilderness seems fair game for our helpful comments. With the obvious comparisons, you have to wonder if these special twelve won't be endued with a special aura of destiny ... as they sit at the campfire and speak softly of the greatness that lies ahead of them ...

Well, they will certainly have plenty of examples of what NOT to do, but it does seem they are starting off down the same path. Pick your rut carefully, you may be in it a long time ...

 

On 2/13/2008 at 1:11 PM, Ham said:

But Rocky's outrage was kinda a surprise.

You'd a thought I slapped the Queen of England or something..

:)

The last time I heard that kind of "correction" was about twenty five or so years ago from an equally unlikely source: a young girl who was a retired hippie of sorts..

I called vic "wierwille".. and she almost jumped out of her skin and hissed, "WE CALL HIM DOCTOR Wierwille!!!"

You'd a thought I'd slapped the Queen of England or something..

Ham, Doctor my foot!!  There were some real Harpies in Way World; I hope by now they have grown up.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/13/2008 at 10:34 PM, rascal said:

I remember the rock where that *good food* was contaminated by some kind of bacteria (roa 81 I believe) and many of us got SERIOUSLY ill for the week....shiver

While many enjoyed the *good fellowship* and *good word* there were many others in their tents...vomiting their brains out and unable to make it to the porta potty in time with their diahrea.

Yet another example of people at the same event (ministry) having vastly different experiences.

A parallel could be drawn between pfal and the wholesome apetitizing looking food concealing harmfull bacteria that sickened and weakened many unsuspecting that year.

Rascal, I remember that!!  Guess who got food poisoning; oh yeah!!  I spent most of The Rock in the bathroom.  Yuck!

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/14/2008 at 10:44 AM, rhino said:

I don't think they are evil ... no more so than the well intentioned were in the days of the 70's and early 80's. But the ego and pride does have a way of welling up ... and the concept of training up "leaders" seems to put V2P2 as the mog ... and he is only 24? And the structure seems like an old wineskin.

As for the geezers, they already have a pattern of the old ministry patterns etched in their brain, so that would be hard to escape. Which is why it would seem copying directly from the old patterns only reinforces that other actions will be funneled down the same old path.

It sure seems they want to claim the greatness of the old days as their own. When there are churches around that have to share a minister, yet have quite a few parishoners, I'm skeptical of groups like CFF with several paid staff. I'd certainly want a full disclosure of finances, and a knowledge of who will own this farm that is being improved.

But that's just me ... I'm not joining. Just a fun little topic for a site like this. Maybe the third time is a charm ...

Rhino, excellent post!!  

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/14/2008 at 11:53 AM, skyrider said:

Like so many ventures.......at this point, it's at its infantile stage where the first group of volunteers should be handled with extreme care, concern and love. I do not doubt this. But I also think, that if as this "training center" moves along........more commitment will be required, obviously.

Questions that arise:

1) Who owns the land?

2) Who are the beneficiaries of this free-labor and land improvements?

3) Will volunteers be doing farmwork.....driving tractor, harvesting grain, feeding livestock???

4) Are those 6-8 people full-time? drawing salaries? qualified instructors? medical assistance?

5) Is there a board of directors over the "corps-style" coordinator?

6) What if someone has a legitimate grievance? Are checks & balances in place?

7) Is "the law of believing" going to be the foundation? What if someone has allergies?

8) Will there be a light-bearers event? Hitch-hiking? Final reports and evaluations filed away?

9) If successful, will a form of caste system evolve like it did in twi?

10) Is this project another attempt to whitewash vpw's past and re-write the twi-story?

Questions? Questions?...........Once (deeply) burned, twice shy.

Sky, good questions!!  Now, where are the answers??

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/14/2008 at 2:45 PM, skyrider said:

Yeah.....lots of questions, now that over 30 years have passed for some of us.

11) What does 24/7 really mean? Prayer vigils? Sleep deprivation?

12) Do I need sponsors? Parents' weekends? Snack runs to local store?

13) How are Holidays handled? Thanksgiving? Christmas? St. Patricks?

14) At the end of the program, then what? A graduation? Another program? More hoops? Done?

15) Is this "outdoorsy training" equipping one to run fellowships? Run classes? Leadership in cff?

16) Will spiritual protocol be enforced? Adulation for Dr. Wierwille? History of wierwille's ministry?

17) Cell phones? Internet access? DVDs? Music videos? Self-structure time?

18) If sickness or hospitalized for a bit, will I be sent packing? What are your policies?

19) Will there be a curriculum? Hands-on biblical researching? Or, just non-dialogue classes?

20) Will students be handled individually or is this another clone factory?

Questions, questions..........

And more questions!!  Sky, I think your questions have merit; I would want them answered before I joined this new---cult, ministry, or whatever.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/15/2008 at 8:53 AM, Sunesis said:

I took a look at their Fellow Laborers program and the comments by the kids - God bless them. But, after reading that they joyously spent their time driving people, cleaning, taking care of "material" things for gatherings, etc., the general busywork they "get" to do to bless the body, reading the very similar "wayspeak" - so to speak - I couldn't finish.

Sounded just like us years ago. Like a bad dream. The joy of being a flunkie.

Sounds like TWI is alive and well in CFF. Seeing that keeps me thankful God opened a door for us to leave. I just could never go back to that "lifestyle." Lots and lots of running around "doing" things. Kind of like Martha in the gospels. They're certainly busy, but that's all it is, busy work amongst themselves.

Sun, I would never go back to that lifestyle.  Once was more than enough for me.  Don't these kids know how to use a computer; they could Google TWI, and find out about it.  

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/15/2008 at 11:01 AM, Ham said:

The idea that a "novice", or "young man" as another poster put it, is coordinating something like this is disturbing to me..

anybody who shuts off communication just because someone asks a few "hard" questions, only gives me a few MORE questions, harder than the ones before. What about their maturity, their meekness.. their real qualifications to coordinate something like this.. if he can't deal with ME, how can he deal with his so called "mentors"? "We oughter have something like lead".. "fine".. "we oughter have something like the rodeo school" "fine"..

I'm not questioning his "heart" or motive. I'm really questioning common sense, at least to begin with.

what are you gonna do if someone REALLY gets hurt..

what REALLY qualified people are you going to have staff the deal..

are you gonna send people home on a whim, or use the "send you home at any time" clause as a threat when they don't "perform"..

what are you gonna do if twi sends you a cease and desist letter..

I wonder if they even CONSIDERED that little possibility. Surely they know twi has been gleefully suing groups just because they have a similar name, or just look like them.. or "borrow" their material..

Mc**&&en knows..

The "young man" has far more to loose than the rest of them.

Ham, very good questions!!  Or if someone needs to see a Dr., or Dentist, who pays for it??  Or if someone needs to go to the ER, who pays for it??  Ham, keep going, you are doing well.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/15/2008 at 11:34 AM, Ham said:

please don't take this as an insinuation or accusation of any given individual in the organization.

but as the coordinator of a program.. what do you do IF you catch one you trust your life with putting their greasy hands on an enrollee.. turn your head, and act like it was your imagination.. or that it didn't happen? Do you have the REAL character to "deal" with it? "Naw, too negative.. it would NEVER happen.."

Want to bet?

If you can't "deal" with it.. even just the POSSIBILITY.. you're not ready by a long shot, in my opinion.

Similar incidents happened in the parent organization. People either turned their heads, said nothing, ingnored it, or they lost their heads.

If one thinks these questions are hard and mean, consider that the questions on the other end of a witness stand are a heck of a lot "harder".. and one finds themselves forced to answer, in many cases.

ask rosie, loy..

Hopefully, I'm almost done here..

:)

If I didn't care, I wouldn't say a damn thing..

Ham, we know that some of the leadership in TWI assaulted people; what will happen to them, if it happens again??  I think your questions are honest, and deserve honest answers.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/15/2008 at 0:04 PM, mstar1 said:

Thats an honest question, if I wanted christian or spiritual education for myself or my children I would hope that the organization at the very least would be upfront and honorable about its policies, reviews and checks, curriculum--everything.. Even without the bad history --Its highly suspect and just plain a bad idea to entrust these types of decisions to an unproven 24 year old.

Star, bingo!!!!   Yes, you understand!!! People who were in TWI, are asking very good questions about this project, or program.  I would like to hear then answered, before people get hurt.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/15/2008 at 0:39 PM, J0nny Ling0 said:

I have a friend from India, who, after all of the big POP/TWI melt down, just continued on. He didn't care that he didn't have copyrighted PFAL materials to continue with. He just taught PFAL live, and would send me e-mails over the years and share of the deliverances the hungry people there were experiencing. My friend is a pure as the driven snow, it seems (I know he has sin nature like all of us), and has lived his life above board and openly before the people in India to whom he ministers. Sometimes, as if he was in a "time warp", he would tell me in personal e-mail letters about "commissioning the WOWs" and things that were so like The Way when he and I were involved in The Way. And all of this many years after The Meltdown.

The OUTCOME he and the people there have experienced has been nothing but joy and deliverance for large amounts of people there. I am certain that he has gone beyond PFAL as far as doctrine is concerned, but I can see the roots of The Way in his teachings and sharings. I have read many a letter of testimony about people healed of blindness, lameness, cancer, alcoholism, demon possession, and all kinds of other things. It's like what we all hoped we were going to see on a huge scale when we got involved in The Way, but only saw in "snatches" from time to time. I think that a large difference between Here (The West) and There (India) is that the people there seriously EXPECT to receive from God when they learn that healing and deliverance is available. And I believe (my opinion), that the people over There are far more spiritual minded than we "scientific minded" westerners. They don't seem to be as "bound by logic" as we Westerners.

And, there have been many Americans that I know who used to be in The Way, who have gone over to India to spend time with my friend, and have come back full of joyous tales of God's deliverance and Love that they experienced amongst our Indian Christian Brothers and Sisters. The name of Jesus Christ is revered amongst them, and the examples of Jesus in the gospels are expounded upon to a greater degree than with us when we were in The Way. But many of the basic teachings that we learned in PFAL are there, and it has been a blessed "outcome....."

Is this "young VPW" ministry going to be the same as my friends? Probably not. But since I don't know this young fella, I am certainly NOT going to judge him and decide that "he is probably going to hurt people." The outcome could very well be different and it could be a blessing to many people.

John, I think Ham, and others are going out of their way, not to judge VPW2.  However, they are asking some excellent questions, because they are kind, and compassionate people.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/15/2008 at 1:46 PM, Ham said:

Another thought..

Fast growth can be a highway to hell for some organizations. It's it's own worst nightmare..

the old ministry rapidly outgrew it's ability to provide SOUND leadership at an alarming rate. That's providing it could provide sound leadership to begin with.

These new bunch coming up. They are what.. 21, 22, 23.. 24..

"we gotta BUILD men and women.."

I think they will end up with the same thing as the old.. many leaders as uneducated and unsound as they are inept and unproven.

I saw many in the old days side with evil because it was simply the easier route. Or it felt right. Or it had enough money.

So many of the leaders of this newer offshoot.. are facing the twilight years of their life.. there's not entirely monumental growth in the organization.. loss of other leaders probably remind them of their own mortality..

why are they so desperately afraid, or concerned- that their "legacy" will pass into the night..

I view this new development as a desperate measure.

Ham, you are so right!

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/14/2008 at 3:39 PM, skyrider said:

Maybe I'm just curious.....

Maybe I should write a cult book.

Sky, now that you mentioned it, perhaps you should!!

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/16/2008 at 9:56 AM, Ham said:

And to the "old geezers" on the "board", I say:

If it's just a matter of midlife crisis, or change or something..

go to the local store, get a bottle of "herbal calm" or something.. figure out how to ride the wave of the hormones and brain chemicals. Worked for me. Though some may need something a little "stronger"..

:)

Then go back to school or something.. get a hobby..

get a degree maybe.. make a REAL difference for somebody.. even if it's secular..

being a fifty some year old "waysRus" kid is kinda pathetic..

the bible will actually STILL be around fifty or so years from now, despite your efforts or lack therof.

Ham, WaysRus??!!  I think I'll use that word(s)!

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 3/4/2008 at 10:35 AM, Ham said:

Another evaluation from WordsandWorks on an old thread..

Umm.. this was in the "good old days" of "doc"'s reign.. part of the corps "experience"..

and to think that I or anyone else was conned to think sponsoring people into that boiling pot of human flesh was actually the godly thing to do..

Ham, people in the Corp knew this S--t went on, and didn't help her??!!! God forgive them, and Craig too.  I can't believe he did that to anyone; especially her!!!

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 3/4/2008 at 11:17 AM, Ham said:

At this point, I have real objections to a system with no accountability at the top.. power to pass summary judgement over other people's lives, no matter how "nice a guy" you are, no matter how "honorable" the motive may be.

ESPECIALLY a twenty some year old snot-nosed kid.. LITTLE real life experience..

Ham, no accountability at the top??  Forget that garbage; we know how that worked under VPW.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 3/4/2008 at 10:58 AM, Ham said:

When I ask "where are the checks and balances".. "where are the safeguards".. I really DO have a good, logical reason..

Ham, great post!

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 3/8/2008 at 4:35 PM, DontWorryBeHappy said:

sorry for the techinical difficulties!...............so, there are the questions i asked of nathan friedly.........apparently, nathan has received some instruction from somewhere to not spend much more of his valuable cff "training" time answering any of these questions..........please note, that these are questions, some critical, but all honest..........they are not ad hominen attacks!...........apparently, the vic apologists find it necessary, in their "manic mission" of whiting vic's sepulchre, to post anything they can to direct attention away from these questions and the serious issues they raise...........so, i have taken a little time to try to uncover some of the "no link" facts nathan friedly can't seem to find or remember on his own, despite his loyal cff fellowlaborer access to the sources that could indeed supply many, if not all, of the answers to my questions as well as ham's!

Please note: The views and/or opinions represented on these links do not necessarily reflect those of the Christian Family Fellowship Ministry.

Christian Web sites

SowersOnline.com [NEW]

Fellowlaborers With God

Living Tree Academy

Akribos Theological Fellowship and Seminary

despite the conspicuous appearance of these website links on the cff official website, i'm fairly certain, that nathan would proudly and boldly state that there is "no link" between cff and any of them............and, by browsing those sites, it is indeed difficult to find many specific names mentioned that demonstrate the strong "link" between cff and those who are the leaders, owners, operators, or members of the various boards of directors, admissions, etc...........however, in spite of their attempts to cover-up the strong ties to cff, the content of these various websites which is "open" to public view makes the links quite obvious indeed!............take, for example, the Akribos site, which purports to offer bachelor of theology degrees to those who would be foolish enough to "enroll" in their "accredited" christian seminary............ Denominational Affiliation…

We are a non-denominational seminary, which

holds to the Word of God as the final authority

on any matter of doctrine.

What Makes Us Different...

Akribos Theological Seminary is the only post-

secondary educational institution that builds its

curriculum upon the easily grasped and understood

principles of Biblical Study and Research.

Why Do I Need A Degree…

No one necessarily needs a formal degree ...

However, it has been the called, formally trained,

and degreed men and women in the Body of Christ

who have had the greatest impact in bringing the

light of God's Word to the world.

then, in large, blue, attractive script font, they add.........."TRAINING THE SERVANTS OF TODAY FOR LEADING TOMORROW"............servants?..........where do they find them?...........and, what will these humble "servants" be "leading tomorrow"??..........cff fellowlaborers??...........s.o.w.e.r.s.??..........."non-denominational mega-churches"?? when you try to find the names of the akribos board of directors or board of admissions or faculty...........YOU CAN'T!!..........they are not posted any where that the interested browser can access them..........you'll need "special" passwords or fonts to find out that information!........but, if you look at the "curriculum" akribos offers for its 2-calendar year "traditional; track" bachelor of thelogy degree, you will notice the course numbers and names..........."how to enjoy the bible", e.w. bullinger, along with bullinger's "witness of the stars", figures of speech used in the bible", and "the church epistles"........then, you'll find course descriptions for "the bible tells me so", "the new dynamic church", god's magnified word", "order my steps in thy word", "jesus christ our passover", "jesus christ our promised seed", etc., all without an author's name or the name of a faculty member!!..........seriously!!..........go check it out for yourself!!..........i'm not making this up!! if you really want to have some fun, check out the "accreditation" pedigree of akribos!...........looks like they're right up there with pike's peak seminary!!!.........and, the way college of emporia and the indiana campus!!..........this it just what the world needs, is it not??..........this is where i'd want my kids to get their education, so that they too can be "leading tomorrow"!!.........

what a country!........i'm glad that our government allows the intellectually inept, yet spritually qualified "masses" the freedom to promote and participate in these kinds of "educational" institutions!........the mind boggles at the thought of what these highly trained and educated "servants of today" are going to be able to do for the future of christianity around the world!.........think of the thousands of young christian leaders that will "go forth in areas of concern, interest and need" to feed the poor, heal the sick and carry on in christ's stead!!............why, they'll be bigger than the mormons!!.........that's who they remind me of, although you'd have to reduce the numbers by millions as well as the dollars and amount of time actually spent feeding the poor, or helping in disaster relief projects around the world!! and, just like the mormons, the "leadership" of cff and their "links", will warn against the dangers we questioners pose to them!....they view all such questioners as "apostates", prejudiced critics, personal attackers, and perhaps, worst of all..........intellectuals.........who, by their constant questioning, cause the faithful to "doubt their testimony", and, because of their unbrididled, critical thinking, cause the otherwise faithful followers to "leave the faith"!...........after all, the "leaders" of any really "good" , fascist religious system must never be criticized, or held to account for anything they say or do by "revelation"...........allow me to quote dallin h. oaks, former president of BYU, and current member of the quorum of the 12 apostles of the mormon church: "I also said something else that has excited people: that it's wrong to criticize leaders of the Church, even if the criticism is true, because it diminishes their effectiveness as a servant of the Lord. One can work to correct them by some other means, but don't go about saying that they misbehaved when they were a youngster or whatever. Well, of course, that sounds like religious censorship also"............really??............"religious censorship", eh?........"even if the criticism is true"??..........yup........exactly what it takes to protect your religion and it's leaders from the facts they themselves have produced!! ..........hey, why not?.......works for them!.........worked for vic too!........the doofus from okie tried it too! but, "unfortunately" for martindale and twi, the doofus just did not have enough "natural leadership ability" to pull it off!!

about 16 years ago, boyd h. packer, president of the quorum of the 12 apostles of the mormon church, procalimed from his "watchman's tower" to the world, that the three greatest dangers facing the mormon church and it's continued growth, are "gays/lesbians, feminists and intellectuals"........right about the same time the doofus from okie began his march into the "promised land of the present truth, behind the walls of zion", with the "god-commanded" "homo purge"!........ vic, several times, during "lunch-time sharings" to the in-residence corps during 1972-74, praised joseph smith and brigham young and the mormons, for the way they built and ran their church!.......of course, they were totally devoid of any "doctrinal truths", but they sure "knew how to take care of their own"!!........he admired the way they "handled their finances", and amassed their "great financial fortune".......he wondered if we "corps kids" would show the same strength and determination the mormons did in the face of persecution!.......would we be willing and able to "march across the country, barefooted, pulling those damn carts" if that's what it took to "stand and move the word"??...........would we??.........guess not!..........martindale admired the "practical abilities" of the mormons too.........but, again, his abject lack of "natural leadership ability" combined with that famous neanderthaal intellectual capacity of his, proved to be too little too late to save his sorry "ministry"............and, "rev" wayne clapp and the other cff "leaders" were right there helping him, and carrying out his orders........and, despite their best efforts to establish the "no link" to twi mentality required to be a part of their church, they still carry vic's, lcm's and twi's baggage with them to this day.........but, they lack the honesty and courage to "stand by their man" publically, and "officially" like the mormons do for joseph smith and brigham young...........

so, ham............"here we go again"??............not as long as there's a greasespot cafe that provides a forum for us questioners to ask our questions!!.............their refusal to honestly and openly answer those questions says more about them and their church than all the denials and cover-ups they employ in their attempt to establish their own identity...........like their "father in the word", they are whited sepulchres, broken cisterns which can hold no genuine "water of life"!.............paraphrasing my pal al here..........they are the embodiment of insanity, repeating the same twi formulas over and over again, expecting different results!..........proving that old adage, ya can't get good fruit from a rotten tree!..........................................peace.

DWBH, wow!!!

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 3/8/2008 at 8:02 PM, Ham said:

Personally.. I think they have delusions of grandeur.. I really think they've gone off the deep end..

we have one guy on the board who regards the "fire ring" at hq as some kind of holy place, on par with Arlington Cemetary..

we have another who stumbled through as abused and abuser, and doesn't have a stinking clue.. but has the ego the size of Texas..

another who just goes along with it all.. "well, it's biblical. It's biblical, isn't it?"

"counsellors".. yes men, one and all..

and one kid.. "groomed" just for the moment..

kid, I'd run if I were you..

you're the one left holding the bag.

Ham, I think he should run also, but where will he go??  There might be a lot of pressure from his family to do this; he might not have the gumption to tell them no.  I think it will blow up in his face, but that is not my problem.  My concern is that people don't get hurt; a lot of people were badly hurt with under Craig, and VPW, and others.  God, I really feel for VPW2; I really don't think he understands all that can go wrong.

.

 

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 3/8/2008 at 11:14 PM, waysider said:

Hi, Jonny

I can't speak for DWBH but as for myself, I would have to say we will never know the answer to that question in this lifetime.

The only man who really knew the answer took it with him to his grave.

Way, I think you nailed it.  We can speculate all we want, but only VPW knew the answer to that.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 3/9/2008 at 4:20 AM, rhino said:

It sounds like he was "crookeder than a dog's hind leg" even back then. And his improprieties ran the gamut ... sex, money and drugs ... if you count the drug of ... hmmm, ego maybe ... to plagiarize these other men of greater ability. Of course the drug of alcohol came a little later, or maybe it was there earlier.

It seems old vic was a scallywag from the start, or at least from the real start in 1953 or so, about the time most of his largest group of future followers were just being born. While we were learning to walk and talk and read and write, old vic was preparing his snare class for us. That's a lot of years as a scoundrel. :o

Maybe claiming the start of the ministry as the start of WW2, gave him some sort of cover or excuse for not participating in the war effort. He had been called of gawd ... a greater calling?

Then later he would reportedly say perhaps we fought on the wrong side. It seems those war years were influential on many of that generation. I don't recall him talking of what he did then, except in light of "his ministry". I wonder how he avoided the military.

and the counterfeit MOGFOT was born ... as many of us would come to know all too well.

Rhino, great post!  I too would like to know how VPW avoided military service during WWII.  I know by 1941, he was married, and had a child.  But a lot of men who faught in WW11 were married, and had kids.  I wonder if he was afraid of combat; a lot of men and women were, and are.  But then he had the nerve to suggest the USA fought on the wrong side; if he wanted to fight for his "Fatherland", he could have. I think VPW lacked morals, character, and courage.  Punk!

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 3/15/2008 at 1:57 PM, now I see said:

I think you hit the nail on the head on this one Ham, I think they feel the same way and want to go "home" again. One of the models that old vp studied before he started twi was E Stanley Jones' Christian ashrams, what sowers is doing is very much like a commune as was twi.

The only difference is this group is an ultra uber Wierwille loyalist organization, far more than CFF is, myabe more than any other existing organization. They have gone so far as to hold foundational classes using bootleg CD's of the old vp PFAL classes, they are under the belief that doc vp was right, and especially spiritually right, and should be revered and honored, totally ignoring any evidence to the contrary.

Somehow they are not making the connection between the actions they were eye witnesses to from Vp, twi leadership, twi policies and doctrine and how they were harmful to others, they are emotionally tied to the old twi, and cannot see the forest thru the trees, they still believe in the twi unspoken principle that above all else, the ministry be not blamed..People will get hurt.. .Sacrificing the welfare of a human being on the alter of the ministry is not beyond their belief system.   From what I know of members of their group, IMO they are not capable enough to handle the spiritual life of my pet hamster, let alone any other individual’s spiritual, emotional or physical well being…very dangerous stuff.

Now, how sad that they think VPW was a great guy.  Forty years ago, we didn't have PCs, and the Internet; now days they do. These young people should find out the truth of VPW, and all the hurt, and pain he caused.  I think they will waste years of their lives in a program that is doomed to fail.  God help them.