Here we go again..

[Ham]

Oh yeah.

They've probably drummed that in his head since he was a tike..

sheesh.

I'd say he probably believes it.. that or he's just looking an organization with a few slaves (ahem) volunteers to help fund his way through graduate school..

either way it's troubling to me..

the supposed elders.. there's no excuse to yoke a kid with, in my opinion, this kind of egotism and insanity..

The "promised one" isn't even near THIRTY yet..

[frank123lol]

Like the eagles song"Another false messiah".

Like ole gramps,It was all about him,Teach the vord victor,too bad he did not heed that advise.

Sonny boy and his prophecy?Bible says no longer jew gentile,we are all made one,Hell ignore that one

look to me,I got the answers everything else forget about it.

We were young too,some of the old folks over the years said,why do you think you are so different?

we did this 30 years ago,nothing has changed.

[Ham]

yeah.. what makes him/them *special*? The real pathetic part of all of this.. the "staff" is our age and older.. you'd think they would know better.

Better that is than to attempt to resurrect vic I's dog and pony show.. and bait his young namesake with promises of mogdom and all..

maybe they really think the vicster was the messiah.. I know, not DOCTRINALLY. They'd dismiss that claim in a minute.. but on a practical level, couldn't this be the case?

They have an almighty MOG who brought da word like they think it hasn't been known since the primordial fish crawled out of the sea.. all was darkness to them, before 1942..

and his offspring.. MUST be a "holy thing of gawd"..

they might as well call him "the lord".. it might be a little more honest..

[Ham]

I wonder if raising your kid to think he's the messiah could be considered child abuse..

[JeffSjo]

Ham,

ha ha ha

Not for GOD, but only HIM!

Edited July 24, 2008 by JeffSjo

[Mark Clarke]

"He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy!"

"Well, I say he is the Messiah and I should know, I’ve followed a few!"

:B)

[Ham]

took me a minute to get that reference.. heheh.

makes me wonder though.. how did that "prophecy" exactly go? That der ministry, or word would live as long as a vierville offspring "stood"?

either way, in PRACTICE, it would make those of the *royal* seed a SAVIOR, or SAVIORS, would it not?

maybe that's what they mean by "those charged with oversight'.. perhaps they really believe the madman's prophecy.

"chosen ones" messiahs all..

In a practical sense, anyway..

[JavaJane]

The way I heard it was that there would always be at least two people standing in twi until Jesus Christ came back... then I heard a version about the Weirwille family....

In any case, it's a scary scary "prophecy" (ego trip.)

[Ham]

Why couldn't they just walk away, and let it be..

the older kids were smart. run as fast and as far from new knoxville that one's legs could take them..

Mac probably bought into this nonsense..

well, I wouldn't want to be an enrollee in the program when things go "wrong".. when the little mogster shows he can't live up to being the (grand)son of "gawd"..

[frank123lol]

'grandson of gawd'Good one!I dont care that he plays the part,that could be charmless,it is the part of bringing back,or improving upon somthing tghat was now clearly flawed.Ya know,everywoman in the kingdom,ad nauessuem...

If he stared fresh,upfront honest...OH WELL ANOTHER STARRY EYED MESSIAH...

[Ham]

"Borrowed" from DWBH on the TWI vs Therapeutic relationships thread:

to clarify, my point was to demonstrate that, imo, vic and his way, offered no legitimate training in pastoral counseling to those who were placed in positions where such professional training was a necessity, and to whom twi followers were directed to receive such professional services.

thus, vic's system of "ministering to god's people" demanded complete loyalty to his way........this required the rejection of individual, critical thinking processes, abdication of the need and right to question his/god's authority, and stunting of the normal progression of individual identity formation..........replacing these with, what turned out to be, unhindered indoctrination into the dysfunctional world of his personal pathologies, and the adoption of same as the "god ordained", properly expected "walk by the spirit" that his "training" programs purportedly offered........imo, these implied expectations produced a state of perpetual adolescence among the most loyal and dedicated followers,,,,,,,,keeping them in a state of "suspended animation" rather than maturing through the ericsonian developmental stage of "identity formation vs.identity confusion", the developmental stage associated with the normal progression from adolescence to adulthood........this produced a loyal cadre of adolescent "leaders" who were totally unable to provide any healthy, functional direction to those instructed to follow them!

I think these quotes have some relevance here. What is this new program doing, which is any different? They have about one year "wonder training" to teach the participants how to "run and serve"? They'll come out ot the starting block, ready to discern spirits, cast out debils, in short, practice vic's "psychiatry" that ranged from being detrimental, to ineffective.

So they want to try it again..

the sad thing is, they are probably starting with a relatively healthy group of people..

[Ham]

I wonder if the mental health providers have ever considered a class action lawsuit against these hacks..

really..

I mean.. who's helping to pick up the pieces after these groups are often done with what initially seemed to be normal, ordinary, healthy people?

it's not der vey, except for a couple of court judgments against them for maybe, three individuals..

[rhino]

I wonder if the mental health providers have ever considered a class action lawsuit against these hacks..

really..

I mean.. who's helping to pick up the pieces after these groups are often done with what initially seemed to be normal, ordinary, healthy people?

nah ... there are probably counselors making their whole living off the survivors ...

cult abuse yields more clients ... maybe they are paying them a commission to have their name advertised in the back of the BRC ... some are even listed here ... business is good ... :blink:

(just kidding, of course the counselors are necessary at times ... and have no part in causing the harm)

Edited July 28, 2008 by rhino

[Ham]

Words from Penworks on another thread, might be relevant here.

I was in an early Corps, before DWBH, and had no focused teaching on counseling people other than using the Dale Carnegie class principles mixed with the Bible. Like when you're counseling a person, "Try to see things honestly from the other person's point of view" and tell them things like, "Live in day tight compartments" to overcome worry. To that, we'd add things like, "Think the Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word." The idea was to keep people focused on positive not negative thoughts and we'd point out appropriate Bible verses for them to "renew their mind" in whatever catagory they had a problem. That, of course, fosters denial of stupendous proportions. In that scenario, problems are not really addressed and resolved, only covered over with a bandaid. I can testify to that!

When I graduated from the Corps in 1973, got married, and went to L.A. for our first assignment, I was scared to death of counseling. It was not clear how to go about handling people's problems except to encourage them to renew their mind to the Way teachings and love one another - and use those Carnegie keys. It's a shame, really. I shudder to think how many people I tried to "help" with these pitiful tools and hope I didn't do too much damage, telling people to just "get committed to the Word" or "let go and let God" so that their problems would be solved. Geez. I did all that myself and I KNOW my problems many times were not solved!

I do remember that any counseling by "outsiders" like psychologists or psychiatrists was definitely "off the Word." You couldn't forbid anyone from gaining that help, but it was labeled as "sense knowledge" and even worse, as DWBH mentioned, vpw said it had its roots in spiritualism (the devil's country), not the accuracy of The Word. So I never suggested that to anyone; we just tried to discern any devil spirits and pray for people.

So "new" group, what are you going to do that is any bit different? How are your "ministers" going to "run to serve"?

Are you equipping them with the illusion that a few Dale Carnegie motivational techniques, and a few "positive" bible teachings will solve people's *real* problems?

Will this "in depth" spiritual(?) perception and awareness you claim to be fostering in the followers actually DO something.. other than give them regrets for the damage they've done in a few years?

Or like the way, will you only be looking for people who are young, successful, and healthy to begin with to "showcase" the "success" of your ministry?

just a few more questions..

:)

[Ham]

So.. if you think you're going back to the "purity" of the "good old days".. before loy, before rosie..

what DO you think of mental health professionals, counsellors, and the like?

from DWBH on another thread..

imo, twi stood diametrically opposed to professional, therapeutic relationships, then and now!...........but i never thought, nor do i think today, that god and/or jesus opposes them................what do you think?.................................................peace.

I put the same question to you now. What do you think? Is it "the verd, the verd, and nothing but der verd..", and modern psychology and psychiatry was born in a seance? Do you FEAR the practice of modern psychiatry? Do you think that devils abound in psychiatric practice?

Or do you think that all one needs is a "hopped up" holy spirit walk, "all nine all the time..".. cast out the devil, remove the cause, and "voila"- the person is "cured"?

Do you think that god or jesus oppose these professional, theraputic relationships?

just a side thought. Just perhaps.. if your brand of "therapy" goes "sour", some jurisdictions MAY hold you liable. Legally and financially that is. I personally don't have the time to check it out.. but before I hung out a shingle I'd consider it..

Edited August 5, 2008 by Ham

[Ham]

Seems every year, it's getting harder to hide behind the separationist issues, when one's actions cause harm..

[rhino]

Seems every year, it's getting harder to hide behind the separationist issues, when one's actions cause harm..

I would be interested to know if those professional counselors are still in TWI ... or if they left and are in a splinter ... or when they left ... since you mentioned the comments from penworks, which are indeed helpful, i was wondering about this ...

The twi history DWBH recounts of the "counseling" class that came in later years is on the mark. I remember all those people he mentioned and the parts they played in the story. From my perspective, I saw some people getting degrees in college only to gain that worldly knowledge so they could somehow "make it accurate" and use it in the ministry. The degrees were to make twi look respectable to the world so we would seem more credible in whatever we did. vpw himself, while I was in the Corps, told us that.

Does TWI allow some of those professionals to help? Or are they still using holy water and silver bullets? Or are those professionals still in TWI, putting on bandaids, as they compromise their "secular/worldy" training to "make it accurate" according to da wuhrd?

The splinters have maybe progressed a little, how could they exist without some changes? ... But given the spiders in the noses type rev' that was reported ... it seems some ministers have their own schizophrenia ... or whatever ...

I think VP knew he made up the snowy gas pump story ... but maybe the myth has become greater than the man ... a few more generations and vp will be remembered as half man, half god ... did he have wings? I almost forget ....

[frank123lol]

Even before Vpw died,"One of a kind",LCM, said to this effect,I doubt there ever will arise another like him.

So the myth was around when vper was alive and well,after all how many people hear from god outloud?

"Hey vic.I need ya to shut down this party,she is gon na rain!"Vic says to the group,"father told me she is a go na rain."

Ohhs and ahhs from the group,"He is hot tonite."

[penworks]

I would be interested to know if those professional counselors are still in TWI ... or if they left and are in a splinter ... or when they left ... since you mentioned the comments from penworks, which are indeed helpful, i was wondering about this ...

The twi history DWBH recounts of the "counseling" class that came in later years is on the mark. I remember all those people he mentioned and the parts they played in the story. From my perspective, I saw some people getting degrees in college only to gain that worldly knowledge so they could somehow "make it accurate" and use it in the ministry. The degrees were to make twi look respectable to the world so we would seem more credible in whatever we did. vpw himself, while I was in the Corps, told us that.

Does TWI allow some of those professionals to help? Or are they still using holy water and silver bullets? Or are those professionals still in TWI, putting on bandaids, as they compromise their "secular/worldy" training to "make it accurate" according to da wuhrd?

The splinters have maybe progressed a little, how could they exist without some changes? ... But given the spiders in the noses type rev' that was reported ... it seems some ministers have their own schizophrenia ... or whatever ...

Since I'm getting quoted here, I figured I'd respond to this. In my comments about people in twi getting college degrees: vpw's comments that I heard were specifically in reference to the ECU guys finishing their degrees before they went in the Corps so that they'd have a worldly credential along with their Way training. He thought this would give them entry into leadership circles out in the world where they could witness and win people for twi. Without a degree, there would be a more limited way of reaching people. I venture to say that this idea continued well into the future. It also included gaining "sense knowledge" that could be evaluated and "made accurate" and useful to twi (like he used to change words in songs to make them more accurate with his version of the Bible).

That said, I would never, I repeat never, mean to say that anyone who got any degree accomplished that ONLY to serve twi's purposes. Knowing some of the people DBWH mentioned (in the thread about TWI vs Therapeutic Relationships), I'm venture to say that in their hearts they genuinely wanted to help people. Who knows what is in a man or woman's heart anyway? The problem is that because twi was a closed system, these trained people in counseling were in a very odd situation when counseling, to say the least. DWBH outlined those issues already.

Peace,

Penworks

Edited August 6, 2008 by penworks

[rhino]

That said, I would never, I repeat never, mean to say that anyone who got any degree accomplished that ONLY to serve twi's purposes. Knowing some of the people DBWH mentioned (in the thread about TWI vs Therapeutic Relationships), I'm venture to say that in their hearts they genuinely wanted to help people. Who knows what is in a man or woman's heart anyway? The problem is that because twi was a closed system, these trained people in counseling were in a very odd situation when counseling, to say the least. DWBH outlined those issues already.

Peace,

Penworks

Thanks Penworks ... I didn't want to add more clutter to that other thread, which had covered a wide number of issues. I didn't mean to imply that you were pointing fingers at these men for debasing their teaching. But to me, especially in the field of psychology, it appears that even staying in The Way meant compromising and submitting to Vic's Way.

The research team is a classic example I suppose ... Vic got the final word, though he was not by any means the most competent nor the most educated. But he was the magic man ... he got a promise direct from God and saw snow on the pumps ... did you? (tongue in cheek)

I don't doubt the sincerity of those men, I lived with one of them for a year, and have no reason to think badly of him. But I do wonder how anyone could stay in The Way, and not be compromised. Especially so for those holding facts about VP's secret world.

There are counselors that apparently specialize in helping people out of cults ... books on all the subtle influences ... so given that, it seems these sincere and knowledgeable men were themselves still CUI ... "counseling under the influence."

So I have to wonder whether that was ever broken ... the cult addiction. Since I see that as THE real problem, I don't see much help beyond the bandaids until they themselves were delivered from that prison/allegiance. I don't understand how they could in good conscience, stay in TWI, unless they were still under a certain level of ... call it "cult mind control", for lack of a more professional term.

And of course with the new Way Corps rearing its head, I wonder how they will handle these issues. Greasespot spends a lot of time reviewing the old TWI of the early 80's and before ... but it is the current TWI and the splinters that are the issue now, really.

I think LCM once declared they had become a religion ... so maybe they have also taken a less dogmatic approach, maybe they do have checks and balances ... and even actual professional counseling. I just can't see it happening for those that were "IN" while VPW was around.

The splinters have decentralized to a large degree, and people that are still around in them are more mature and capable of recognizing and dealing with their spiritual "leaders" ... or so we can hope. Have they actually grown out of the cult think / group think?

To me, what you described as a "very odd situation" was indeed that ... but if they were still in the cult, they were blind to the root issue ... allegiance to this great manipulator. Everyone needed to leave the influence of the cult, before there could be a crisis resolution.

All in TWI were hostage, to a certain degree. Being in the cult WAS the crisis.

Edited August 6, 2008 by rhino

[Ham]

Thanks for your comments Penworks. I think they have some relevance to a sub-topic of this thread..

I'm not belittling anyone's real love and concern and dedication, even back then, but large numbers of corps graduates had the distinction: "incompetent to counsel".

In other words, from what I read from your comments, and those of DWBH on other threads, the corps went through training that really didn't prepare most of them to counsel people with real problems.

casting out "devils", "exhorting" people to stay "positive" and sweep problems under the rug- works nice if people don't have real "problems" to begin with.. then it's a matter of sales. Sell them the "problem".. then miraculously provide the solution..

who needs a degree in psychology or psychiatry when they can have an "in depth spiritual perception and awareness"?

I know of a "counselling" session of a later corps lady rev gave to a couple.. and shrieked "you are POSSESSED" at the husband because he would not do "exactly as I tell you" to resolve some issue..

and the advice had the potential of causing quite a bit of harm..

I just wonder if this new group is going to follow the same pattern. Seem to, so far.. as far as outside inquiry is concerned.

so.. next question. Who on staff has at least a Master's degree in psychology, or even psychiatry?

Is the highest degree held a bachellor's in history or business?

Edited August 6, 2008 by Ham

[Ham]

"Counsel" in the old ministry rapidly disintegrated.. from trying to perform "psychic surgery" on people with bone knives and chisels.. to analysis why the "word" wasn't "moving" like it oughter..

they then began to offer unsolicited advice as to one's sex life, finances, hobbies, family relationships, child raising.. what kind of art one should display in the house, what kind of music is appropriate..

then went as far as to try "discern spirits" and weed out "the bad people" who were supposedly the root of the manufactured "problem"..

then went as far as to dictate where people live, whether they could buy a house, under what terms..

I wonder if the new group will undergo the same metamorphosis..

what will they do when the "word" doesn't "move like it oughter.."

[rhino]

"Counsel" in the old ministry rapidly disintegrated.. from trying to perform "psychic surgery" on people with bone knives and chisels.. to analysis why the "word" wasn't "moving" like it oughter..

they then began to offer unsolicited advice as to one's sex life, finances, hobbies, family relationships, child raising.. what kind of art one should display in the house, what kind of music is appropriate..

then went as far as to try "discern spirits" and weed out "the bad people" who were supposedly the root of the manufactured "problem"..

then went as far as to dictate where people live, whether they could buy a house, under what terms..

I wonder if the new group will undergo the same metamorphosis..

what will they do when the "word" doesn't "move like it oughter.."

Yeah, on this site about TWI history, and its splinters ... it would be interesting to see the actual time line of "advancements" in counseling.

the 60's ... free love ... no problem ... vic explores the scene in California

the 70's ... naked vic ... teaching teenage girls the beauty of the body

the 80's ... a little trouble ... some counseling ... ?

the 90's ... legal problems ... lcm gets "counseled" out of HQ

how were these victims dealt with ... how was the source of the problem dealt with?

As counseling within the cult maybe improved ... when did they start counseling that the victims should be removed from HQ, at the least?

I would assume the splinters all preach against adultery or sexual predation on young women by ministers. But some of those same leaders were still part of TWI for a long time, and stood by as people that even just read the adultery paper were "exorcised" out of TWI. I suppose then, that either none of the counselors read the paper, or none of them are any longer in TWI.

So yeah, in this new Way Corps, where they are molding young lives, how will misconduct be dealt with? They have already stated they want people to come, only if they are willing to do things they are not comfortable with. How uncomfortable are they going to be made? What happens if they "break" them?

Is there a camp counselor, at least?

Considering all the "brainwashing" that occurred at so many levels of TWI, without major or complete overhaul of those corps principles ... it seems the best counseling would be to "GET OUT of the CULT" ...

At least they have Ham to contact for support ...

[Ham]

The sad thing is the kid probably regards me as an enemy.. when I'm anything but..

just another "critic"..

too bad..

the current "advisors" that surround him would probably say "go for it, BE gawd.."

[Ham]

One thing I know.. I got his attention. Therefore.. my hands are clean in this matter.. whatever happens, the blood is on their hands, should they shed it..